Druid 3, Thorny Entanglement too much?

[Diarmuid]

My group recently switched over to PF from 3.5 in my Kingmaker game. The group has been using Entangle to great results while out exploring the natural elements of Kingmaker, which I applaud as a solid tactic given the environs, but it makes for somewhat boring combats.

Now, the druid has just found the Thorny Entanglement (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/thorny-entanglement) spell:



Thorny Entanglement

School transmutation; Level druid 3, ranger 3, shaman 3, witch 3

CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DF
Saving Throw Reflex partial (see text); Spell Resistance no


DESCRIPTION

This spell functions as entangle, except the plants also grow thorns and can fling them up to 15 feet.
Any creature that moves within 15 feet of the spell's area is attacked once on its turn by the animated plants.
The plants use your caster level as their base attack bonus and add your spellcasting ability score modifier (Intelligence for witches; Wisdom for druids, rangers, and shamans) to the attack roll.
A volley of thorns counts as a thrown weapon and deals 2d6 points of piercing damage on a successful hit.
A creature that enters the spell's area or ends its turn there automatically takes 2d6 points of piercing damage.


I spent some time looking through the 3rd level spells available to other classes and I'm just not finding anything that comes even close to this in power. Now, I havent seen it in effect, but the +9 to hit the thorns will have is better than any other attack bonus in the party (6th level, Sorc/Bard/Dru/Clr) and the effective area that it can hit people is 110' diameter with 80' of that being auto damage. I'm sure, as the group gets higher in levels other spells will certainly outpace it, but the 6d6 the Sorc could throw around with a Fireball in 40' diameter (and thats IF the sorc takes Fireball as his only 3rd level spell he gains at 6) pales in comparison.

Am I overreacting?

[AnachroNinja]

Druids are strong, and that is a good spell. The thing is though, how many encounters have enemies spread over that wide of an area vs enemies that fit within a fire ball radius? How many combats last the minimum 4 rounds necessary for that spells damage to outpace a single fireball? How many enemies are going to be missed because even at +9, a significant number of enemies will only have as 50-60% chance of getting missed for zero damage? Enemies with DR vs fire resistance?

Also, why compare it to a sorcerer who's blasting (one of the least effective choices) rather then a wizard, or even a sorcerer really, using grease/glitter dust/stinking cloud to almost defeat the encounter single handedly?

All in all, it's a good spell, but nothing particularly special for a 3rd level spell in my opinion.

[Diarmuid]

I only made the comparison to the Sorc because that's my current party make-up. As to your other questions, many of the encounters in Kingmaker do fit the description for a much higher impact on the druid spell. There are a lot of outside encounters with enemies spread around a large area. You're also ignoring the fact that TE does more than simply deal damage.

Your other comparisons are just as "cherry-picked" IMO.
- Grease is 4 squares on a battle mat, with a low save DC.
- Glitterdust is considerably smaller, but yes can have a high impact on low Wil save targets
- Stinking Cloud is considerably smaller, blocks line of sight, and can have a high impact on low Fort save targets

So yes, in a smaller/clustered area those spells have some potential to outperform TE. But controlling 110' of the battlefield for minutes/level with the potential to deal solid damage seems very powerful to me.

Curious to get some other opinions.

[Knight Magenta]

Level 6 warrior (npc) with club and 18 str: +6 bab +4 Str +1 masterwork weapon -2 power attack = +9. And this is an npc class that is otherwise naked. Incidentally this guy hits for 1d6 + 12.

A sorcerer specialized in fireball (cause blasting without specialization is barely worth it) has the draconic bloodline, Varisian Tattoo (from feat or archetype) and spell specialization. He casts fireball at caster-level 9, for 9d6+9; an average of 40 damage. It would take the thorns 12 turns to match that. The thorns also attack allies and make it difficult to attack the enemies unless the whole rest of the party is archers.

The rest of your party just looks like they are not really built for damage...

[Firest Kathon]

Also keep in mind that Entangle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/entangle) can only be used in areas where "tall grass, weeds, and other plants" grow naturally, so there are many areas (indoors, underground, roads) which prevent usage of the spell, making it much more situational than e.g. the Fireball.

[AnachroNinja]

Reducing movement speed by half and some negatives to attacks for non flying monsters with low reflex saves or low strength is not really the same as controlling the battlefield. Yes, it's doing stuff, yes it's useful. It is not a true "win the encounter lol" level of spell. As for the spells I picked, they are literally the most common spells used by wizards trying to control the battlefield at low levels.

But your right, if every combat takes place with enemies scattered across a 120' battlefield with no long range attacks or flight or burrow, then yes this spell is wildly overpowered and you'll need to either ban the spell or adjust the encounters. I don't know what other response you'd expect. It's like showing up and saying grease is overpowered only to explain later that every combat takes place in a 10' x 10' room. Good luck with it I guess.

[Diarmuid]

The thorns also attack allies and make it difficult to attack the enemies unless the whole rest of the party is archers.


There's the part that I was missing to help me think about this from a balance perspective. The funny thing is that this will actually inhibit the druid the most as his AC is by far the most melee oriented of the others. The cleric will happily sit back and cast Spiritual Weapon, the Sorc can rattle off MM's and the bard will mostly ineffectually attack with his bow and the druid himself with throw Produce Flame, all the while the bad guys are being killed by thorns. Another problem with the KM AP is that is falls prey to the "1 hour workday" for the party where they can generally "nova" most encounters and then rest before moving on. That's a known issue with the AP and I'm working around it to some degree but trying not to do too much to change the "flavor" and "feel" of the AP.

The specialized sorc in your scenario is one thing, but this spell is available to every 5th level druid no matter the optimization level of the group (fairly low in my case). I would also argue that yes, the thorns would take that long to deal the same damage to the same targets, but if you're able to effect a LOT more targets due to almost tripling the area of effect you could certainly be keeping pace with the total damage dealy by the spell (again take into accounts saves from the fireball vs attacks from the thorns causing some variance). Again, this assumes the ability to cover that wide an area and have that many targets. In my case, this happens a lot more often than a small clustered group of a fewer enemies partly due to the flavor/design of the AP I'm running.

Thanks for the thoughts everyone.

[NamelessNPC]

There are a lot of combats in grassy open spaces in kingmaker, but they are not that difficult. If I remember correctly, boss fights are mostly indoors.
The spell is very good, but I couldn't really predict wether it's broken or not. Depends on your definition, I guess.
In any case, there's another entangle derived spell that sickens creatures in the area. That's bound to be more powerful in an 'all full casters' party.

[Psyren]

Am I overreacting?

Yes. Let's examine this in more detail:

This thing puts down an Entangle radius (40ft.) and then attacks 15ft beyond that. So enemies have to walk 60ft around where you centered this to avoid it completely (or fly 20ft. over it, which is likely to be a thing since we're at 3rd-level spells now) without getting hit. That's wide enough to be good battlefield control so it gets a plus there.

So it sounds good, but then we get to the drawbacks. First, like Entangle, you need an area with plants to cast this on - this is a lot of areas in the game if you're creative, but there are still possible areas where the GM can say "no plants" (desert, tundra, deck of a ship, worked stone vault etc.) or even sections of the battlefield with none that can restrict your placement. This can easily end up being a wasted spell slot, or not having nearly as much impact as you hope.

The second drawback is that it requires enemies to move. Even melee enemies won't need to be repositioning every round, and ranged enemies/spellcasters can pretty much just ignore this. End result is that while this thing can do up to 2d6 to an opponent per round (assuming it hits), in practice it's going to do less than that.

The third drawback is friendly fire - this thing says "any creature" so your allies will be getting thorns in the backside for moving around it too. This is unlikely to make you many friends.

The fourth drawback is that the damage has a physical type (piercing) so DR is now a problem too. Piercing is the most commonly resisted form of damage - even lowly skeletons and zombies both mitigate it. I don't know what monsters you face in Kingmaker, but by CR 5, 2d6 piercing with +9 or so attack is starting to look pretty anemic.

Even when you bypass all that, the damage does not scale at all. 2d6 isn't great at 5th level to begin with (even if an enemy triggers the volley twice, that's still less damage than a single fireball and is subject to their AC and DR besides), and it only gets worse as you continue to level.

[Gallowglass]

I only made the comparison to the Sorc because that's my current party make-up. As to your other questions, many of the encounters in Kingmaker do fit the description for a much higher impact on the druid spell. There are a lot of outside encounters with enemies spread around a large area. You're also ignoring the fact that TE does more than simply deal damage.

Your other comparisons are just as "cherry-picked" IMO.
- Grease is 4 squares on a battle mat, with a low save DC.
- Glitterdust is considerably smaller, but yes can have a high impact on low Wil save targets
- Stinking Cloud is considerably smaller, blocks line of sight, and can have a high impact on low Fort save targets

So yes, in a smaller/clustered area those spells have some potential to outperform TE. But controlling 110' of the battlefield for minutes/level with the potential to deal solid damage seems very powerful to me.

Curious to get some other opinions.

Ignoring the passive aggressiveness being flung at you, I agree with the sentiment of the other poster.

This is a powerful spell, just like entangle is a powerful spell, but its usefulness is completely dependent on mitigating factors. The size of the battlefield, the terrain (must be overgrowth basically), the layout and tactics of the enemy troops. The balancing game with spells seems to be that your spell effect can be greater as long as there are equivalent balancing factors that effect the % of time the spell is useful to you.

Also, this is a friendly fire spell. If your allies wander into the area, they get attacked as well. There is no ability to tell the thorny undergrowth "leave them out of it."

I'm not familiar with your adventure path, but it feels like you need to make an executive decision to move a few encounters out of the wilds and into urban or at least less rural environments. If for some reason you MUST stay in the dense overgrown forest, you need to find some other ways to break it up. Have some enemies use camoflauge to stay hidden until right on top the heroes, then spring out already in melee range. That effectively shrinks the battlefield and causes the spell to hurt allies as well as enemies if cast. Or bring in some flying or tunneling units. Or a few with tricks to avoid grapple.

I'm not suggesting that you invalidate their strategy for every combat, but do it for a few and force them to come up with new strategies.

[Gallowglass]

Yes. Let's examine this in more detail:

This thing puts down an Entangle radius (40ft.) and then attacks 15ft beyond that. So enemies have to walk 60ft around where you centered this to avoid it completely (or fly 20ft. over it, which is likely to be a thing since we're at 3rd-level spells now) without getting hit. That's wide enough to be good battlefield control so it gets a plus there.

So it sounds good, but then we get to the drawbacks. First, like Entangle, you need an area with plants to cast this on - this is a lot of areas in the game if you're creative, but there are still possible areas where the GM can say "no plants" (desert, tundra, deck of a ship, worked stone vault etc.) or even sections of the battlefield with none that can restrict your placement. This can easily end up being a wasted spell slot, or not having nearly as much impact as you hope.

The second drawback is that it requires enemies to move. Even melee enemies won't need to be repositioning every round, and ranged enemies/spellcasters can pretty much just ignore this. End result is that while this thing can do up to 2d6 to an opponent per round (assuming it hits), in practice it's going to do less than that.

The third drawback is friendly fire - this thing says "any creature" so your allies will be getting thorns in the backside for moving around it too. This is unlikely to make you many friends.

The fourth drawback is that the damage has a physical type (piercing) so DR is now a problem too. Piercing is the most commonly resisted form of damage - even lowly skeletons and zombies both mitigate it. I don't know what monsters you face in Kingmaker, but by CR 5, 2d6 piercing with +9 or so attack is starting to look pretty anemic.

Even when you bypass all that, the damage does not scale at all. 2d6 isn't great at 5th level to begin with (even if an enemy triggers the volley twice, that's still less damage than a single fireball and is subject to their AC and DR besides), and it only gets worse as you continue to level.

all of this ^^^^... though as your add your spell casting modifier to the damage, the damage is more like 2d6+5 (12) rather than 2d6(7). That doesn't invalidate any of Psyren's points.

[Psyren]

all of this ^^^^... though as your add your spell casting modifier to the damage, the damage is more like 2d6+5 (12) rather than 2d6(7). That doesn't invalidate any of Psyren's points.

It's worse than that - your casting modifier is only added to the attack roll by RAW. The damage doesn't scale at all!

[Gallowglass]

It's worse than that - your casting modifier is only added to the attack roll by RAW. The damage doesn't scale at all!

well shut my mouth

[Diarmuid]

Thanks for all of the replies. I know some of the response come from the usual high optimization point of view on the board and unfortunately my AP heavily (at least for the first couple books) plays into environments where this is going to be a huge player. But that at least gives me the perspective that the spell isnt "broken", it's just really good right now.

For some examples, KM has the party exploring a large, untamed wilds that encompasses hills, plains, and forests for the most part. Even the few "buildings" they've encountered are generally "overgrown" because this area is very wild. Many of the dangers they encounter are largely of the "natural" variety. Yes, there are a couple more interesting encounters with foes with special defenses but those have been the large exception.

Again, thanks for the persectives. As was mentioned, I dont want to invalidate their good tactics and the druid player is already carrying the group for the most part so I would hate to penalize him specifically and even if I did then the group is likely getting overwhelmed due to an underperforming Bard and Cleric.

Those are issues specific to my game though, and not inherent problems with the system/spell.

[Psyren]

Remember that you aren't shackled to an AP - you can tweak the monsters or challenges such that if a given spell is problematic, you can soft-nerf it without the players being any the wiser. The drawbacks in my post should help - the area of this spell won't extend to places without plants, so feel free to rule that patches of ground either are or can become bereft of greenery. (Say, a fireball explodes - you're well within your rights to rule that any plants in that radius were incinerated.) Or give monsters minor buffs like DR/slashing that are unlikely to affect your other players but will nerf the piercing damage of this spell.

The piercing damage also doesn't say it counts as magic (compare to Stone Discus for example), so DR/magic is another easy way to nerf this spell without nerfing your players, who should have +1 weapons by 5th level and so won't notice.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Firest Kathon
Also keep in mind that Entangle can only be used in areas where "tall grass, weeds, and other plants" grow naturally, so there are many areas (indoors, underground, roads) which prevent usage of the spell, making it much more situational than e.g. the Fireball.


Originally Posted by Diarmuid
...KM has the party exploring a large, untamed wilds that encompasses hills, plains, and forests for the most part. Even the few "buildings" they've encountered are generally "overgrown" because this area is very wild. Many of the dangers they encounter are largely of the "natural" variety.

Just to follow up on this, my last group recently spent a while playing Kingmaker (part of the reason I left) and even at ninth level, we were spending 95% of our time out in the wilds, with every major combat encounter taking place in a forest or lakeside environment.

As it happens, I was playing a druid, and I sure wish I'd known about this spell--there were a number of encounters where my character could have contributed a lot more. Sadly, our DM was running the AP with a very limited selection of sources, so the ACG was right out.

[Diarmuid]

With having just converted over to PF and not really knowing the sources, we're pretty much just working off whatever can be found on d20pfsrd.

I veto'd one thing one of the players came up with. but it was pretty easy to say no as it was a very specific new mechanic that I really just didnt want to get into. Without having physical copies of the books, and using just whats available online via paizo.com and the d2-pfsrd is there a simple way to limit/restrict what sources you're pulling from?

@Psy - All good thoughts, the other wrinkle I'm dealing with is the large power/optimization gaps between my players. I worry that adding DR, flying creatures where they wouldnt nomally be there, etc would make those gaps even wider. But again, that is not to speak against the advice in general as they're good tips more just some of my specific scenario limiting my options a bit. I'm hoping to find my sweet spot soon so I can somewhat take the "kid gloves" off a bit.

[Psyren]

Again, it's possible to soft-counter the spell without impacting anyone else in the party, even if they're lower-op. Without knowing more about the group as a whole though it's difficult to be more specific, but the group seems caster heavy so I'm honestly surprised that this is the spell that's doing so much damage.

[Telok]

Well your party is in druid heaven so ya, the druid spells are good here. Versus a speed 20 critter with sub-20 AC and less than 30 HP, it's a great spell. A mounted combatant says "Ow" once and moves out of it, if he's smart he jumps after the first ten feet with a lovely +4 per 10' of base movement speed greater than 30. Of course archers dang near ignore it.

Frankly it's no worse than Obscuring Mist, Call Lightning, and a good Listen skill.

Watch out of Sudden Widen and metamagic rods and do note that Dispel Magic shows up at this level too. Scrolls are cheap and can make for good loot too.