Fully Bounded Accuracy 2: For those who want an alternate system

[Kryx]

This thread is for discussion for those who would like an alternate system to the small bonuses provided. If you're like to argue the merit of such a system please do so at: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?492362-Fully-Bounded-Accuracy

For the system being discussed please see http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/print/SkIZPQ_B

Grod, I made this thread so we can discuss. Lets look at your post from http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20925808&postcount=84

I'd like to keep this a discussion and not a battle as that will not help anyone. So if anyone is joining in, please be cordial!


Advantage is a fantastic system for ad-hoc bonuses. It's a great way to combine all the little pluses and minuses that previous editions attached to various conditions and positions. It's quicker and easier to remember... but it's also a very flat bonus. Linear. Discrete. You have it or you don't. Numerical bonuses are much more continuous-- they can be compared, improved, and so on. There is, I think, a certain virtue in having both, at least in some format.
I think our goals do slightly misalign here. I don't mind flat numerical bonuses that are built into the system. For example Proficiency Bonus and Ability Scores are fine for me. Even archery as it directly counters cover. What I don't like is small numerical bonuses that are added after the fact and can "raise the roof" on the DC system. I think on that we agree. We just disagree on the alternate method and that's fine, but let's discuss it!


The class feature, however, does not scale. A first level Bard and a 20th level Bard are equally inspiring. That just seems wrong, especially given that it's their main, defining class feature.
Ah, see, but here is the thing! It does automatically scale! Because proficiency is already added advantage on that proficiency counts for more than just +3 or +4. It amplifies the proficiency (to diminishing returns). So it is indeed already scaling. I can put together some math for you if you want, but that'll take like an hour so I'd rather not unless you'd like to see it.


You don't have to fold the benefit into the skill boost, but there should be something. Something like this, perhaps:

At 5th level, a creature with an Inspiration Die gains a 10ft bonus to movement speed.
At 10th level, a creature with an Inspiration Die gains immunity to charm effects
At 15th level, a creature with an Inspiration Die may ignore up to three levels of exhaustion.
At 20th level, a creature with an Inspiration Die automatically succeeds on death saves.


These are all great examples of alternate options besides boosting dice that are flavorful, impactful, and not overpowered.

I particularly like the movement speed.
Charm immunity I assume you took from 3.X. I'd suggest altering it to "While inspired you have advantage on saving throws against being frightened or charmed"
Exhaustion could be a bit niche, but also incredibly strong for a Berserker. I'd suggest reducing it to 2 levels.
For death saves I'd make it advantage.


I'm... not sure what you're arguing here? I'm comparing Inspiration (bonus action for Advantage on one attack, check, or save for one person) with your revised Bless (action and concentration for Advantage on one attack or save for three people). I think they probably come up roughly even, meaning one use of Inspiration is worth about one first-level spell. Which is worth... two spell levels, I guess, if Font of Magic is to be believed.
You had said that bless was more powerful than Bardic Inspiration. I was trying to draw the comparison between the two.
Bless costs a spell slot, has Concentration, costs an action to use, targets 3 people, but it only works once.

Bardic inspiration on the other hand doesn't require a spell slot (it has about 15 uses per day with charisma 5 and 2 short rests as recommended by the system). It doesn't require concentration so the bard is free to cast big spells. It costs a bonus action so the bard can keep it up in combat without sacrificing his main action. It only targets 1 person (can be prebuffed longer than bless can), and also only works once.

Overall those are pretty comparable in my eyes. Bardic Inspiration has a lot of uses, doesn't require concentration/action. I think that's the differentiating factor.



So let's discuss what is there and any recommendations. If you think Bardic Inspiration should get some other benefits in addition to the attack/check/save bonus like you've outlined above then lets iron that out.

[bid]

Ah, see, but here is the thing! It does automatically scale! Because proficiency is already added advantage on that proficiency counts for more than just +3 or +4. It amplifies the proficiency (to diminishing returns). So it is indeed already scaling. I can put together some math for you if you want, but that'll take like an hour so I'd rather not unless you'd like to see it.
It looks like diminishing returns to me.

with advno advdiff
21.05
31.20.15
41.450.25
51.80.35
62.250.45
72.80.55
83.450.65
94.20.75
105.050.85
1160.95
127.051.05
138.21.15
149.451.25
1510.81.35
1612.251.45
1713.81.55
1815.451.65
1917.21.75

Take a look at line 11+ to hit with advantage. You have 75% chance to hit, same as if you needed to roll 6+ on a single dice.
If your proficiency improves, you will only need 10+ to hit. This is as if you needed 5.05+ on a single die, 0.95 points more on the dice.

So, at very low hit (15+), a +1 prof yields +1.35 dice point (a big improvement for low-level characters). While at high hit (5+), a +1 prof yields +0.35 dice point (a weak improvement for high-level characters).

[Grod_The_Giant]

I think our goals so slightly mis-align here. I don't mind flat numerical bonuses that are built into the system. For example Proficiency Bonus and Ability Scores are fine for me. Even archery as it directly counters cover. What I don't like is small numerical bonuses that are added after the fact and can "raise the roof" on the DC system. I think on that we agree. We just disagree on the alternate method and that's fine, but let's discuss it!
That's fair. The question, then, is if the skill system is set up to take those bonuses into account? My argument is that Expertise, at least, is assumed. Transposed from my belated response in the other thead:

The claim you've made is that the "normal" goes from Medium -> Hard-> Very Hard.
The default numbers seem to suggest Medium -> Hard
I admit that it's hard to know exactly what "normal" was intended, but I see the progression I mentioned as appropriate due primarily to the way the values with Expertise parallel attack and save progression against expected monster AC/DCs. (You might say that I was...:smallcool:...thunderstruck). The default numbers are approximately one benchmark too low-- as you've showed, a proficient character starts off being able to make Easy checks reliably, hits Moderate at mid levels and Hard at high.

But it is, in fairness, a relatively personal and very simple tweak to make, especially if we use rules like yours to replace the existing "2*Proficiency" abilities.


Ah, see, but here is the thing! It does automatically scale! Because proficiency is already added advantage on that proficiency counts for more than just +3 or +4. It amplifies the proficiency (to diminishing returns). So it is indeed already scaling. I can put together some math for you if you want, but that'll take like an hour so I'd rather not unless you'd like to see it.
Hmm. Are you sure? I ran some quick tests on Anydice, comparing the mean of a roll with Advantage to the mean of the roll without it, at a couple of different bonus, and the mean with Advantage was consistently 3.3 higher, with no effect on the deviation. But more than that, it doesn't feel like it's doing more, and that intuitive feeling is just as, if not more important than the math when it comes to game design.



These are all great examples of alternate options besides boosting dice that are flavorful, impactful, and not overpowered.

I particularly like the movement speed.
Charm immunity I assume you took from 3.X. I'd suggest altering it to "While inspired you have advantage on saving throws against being frightened or charmed"
Exhaustion could be a bit niche, but also incredibly strong for a Berserker. I'd suggest reducing it to 2 levels.
For death saves I'd make it advantage.
Thanks. I like your suggestion for Charm; you may be right about Exhaustion, but I disagree with Death Saves. It's a) a capstone (or effectively so), and b) equivalent to, say, a quickened cantrip, or inferior to a bit of fast healing. Unless I'm forgetting a use for death saves, in which case maybe "you automatically stabilize after one turn" would be better?



You had said that bless was more powerful than Bardic Inspiration. I was trying to draw the comparison between the two.
Bless costs a spell slot, has Concentration, costs an action to use, targets 3 people, but it only works once.

Bardic inspiration on the other hand doesn't require a spell slot (it has about 15 uses per day with charisma 5 and 2 short rests as recommended by the system). It doesn't require concentration so the bard is free to cast big spells. It costs a bonus action so the bard can keep it up in combat without sacrificing his main action. It only targets 1 person (can be prebuffed longer than bless can), and also only works once.

Overall those are pretty comparable in my eyes. Bardic Inspiration has a lot of uses, doesn't require concentration/action. I think that's the differentiating factor.
The point I guess was that BI is worth about one first level spell, so higher level spells should give you more uses.



So let's discuss what is there and any recommendations. If you think Bardic Inspiration should get some other benefits in addition to the attack/check/save bonus like you've outlined above then lets iron that out.
Sure. I'd also like something to replace Expertise, I think-- I remember someone arguing against that as a potential replacement in another thread because there are so many ways to get Advantage, especially on skills, that it greatly cheapens the ability. My personal preference is
Rogues eat the Thief subclass alive, and get either Fast Hands or Second Story Work at first and Supreme Sneak or Use Magic Device at 6th.
Bards get all-new abilities: at 3rd they get to use Charisma instead of Wisdom for Insight checks and can make a check to Determine Characteristics on first meeting someone, and at 10th they don't get Disadvantage on Charisma checks and can't accidentally make someone hostile.

[Easy_Lee]

We can come up with many ideas for bonuses which aren't flat +X. Coming up with ones which fit the fluff for each ability are a little trickier, but I think we can do it. Advantage is the simplest answer, but not the only possible answer.

Below, ideas I had for possible changes to some of these abilities, in no particular order, in the hopes that I might inspire someone:

Expertise - when you fail a check with this skill, you may immediately try again one time
Expertise - you automatically succeed on moderate skill checks and below (requires a very clear understanding of what moderate means)
Inspiration - you ignore all sources of disadvantage on the check, save, or attack
Inspiration - for non-proficient checks and saves, add your full proficiency bonus
Inspiration - you may replace your roll with X if you roll below that number (scales with level, also see the spell Glibness)
Pass Without Trace - If you roll less than 15 on the stealth check, you may treat it as a 15 (see the spell Glibness)

Some of these are more or less powerful, on average, than the base rules. However, none of them break the math or utilize advantage.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Expertise - you automatically succeed on moderate skill checks and below (requires a very clear understanding of what moderate means)
I like this.


Inspiration - for non-proficient checks and saves, add your full proficiency bonus
I really like this.


Inspiration - you may replace your roll with X if you roll below that number (scales with level, also see the spell Glibness)
Pass Without Trace - If you roll less than 15 on the stealth check, you may treat it as a 15 (see the spell Glibness)
I think these are a great way to handle buffs without increasing the absolute cap. Spells and such are even easier, since you don't need the benefit to be broadly applicable. Say

Bless: After missing a foe with a weapon attack, you may choose to reroll the attack. If you do, you must use the new result and can no longer benefit from this spell.
Pass Without Trace: You and allies within 30ft do not leave a trail, and you can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by natural foliage.
Glibness: When making Deception checks, you may treat any roll of 10 or less as if it was a 10, and magic and similar abilities always show that you are telling the truth. Once during the duration, as an action, you may implant a Suggestion in the minds of anyone who can hear you. This works as the spell (including the Wisdom Save), but does not require you to Concentrate and can affect multiple creatures at once, if you so choose.

[Kryx]

I admit that it's hard to know exactly what "normal" was intended, but I see the progression I mentioned as appropriate due primarily to the way the values with Expertise parallel attack and save progression against expected monster AC/DCs. (You might say that I was...:smallcool:...thunderstruck). The default numbers are approximately one benchmark too low-- as you've showed, a proficient character starts off being able to make Easy checks reliably, hits Moderate at mid levels and Hard at high.
As mentioned in the other thread expertise are equivalent with what you think it should be, not necessarily what it should be. Based on the MM and Strahd data the progression is less than you expect.


Hmm. Are you sure? I ran some quick tests on Anydice, comparing the mean of a roll with Advantage to the mean of the roll without it, at a couple of different bonus, and the mean with Advantage was consistently 3.3 higher, with no effect on the deviation. But more than that, it doesn't feel like it's doing more, and that intuitive feeling is just as, if not more important than the math when it comes to game design.
If we compare the numbers I gave in the other thread:


1st level (anydice (http://anydice.com/program/8b29))
2 prof and 3 ability mod:
Very Easy: 100% chance to succeed
Easy: 80% chance to succeed
Medium: 55% chance to succeed
Hard: 30% chance to succeed
Very Hard: 5% chance to succeed
Nearly Impossible: 0% chance to succeed

Advantage 2 prof and 3 ability mod:
Very Easy: 100% chance to succeed. 0% more
Easy: 96% chance to succeed. 16% more
Medium: 79.75% chance to succeed. 24.75% more
Hard: 51% chance to succeed. 21% more
Very Hard: 9.75% chance to succeed. 4.75% more
Nearly Impossible: 0% chance to succeed. 0% more


17th level (anydice (http://anydice.com/program/8b2a)):
6 prof and 5 ability mod:
Very Easy: 100% chance to succeed
Easy: 100% chance to succeed
Medium: 85% chance to succeed
Hard: 60% chance to succeed
Very Hard: 35% chance to succeed
Nearly Impossible: 10% chance to succeed

Advantage 6 prof and 5 ability mod:
Very Easy: 100% chance to succeed. 0% more
Easy: 100% chance to succeed. 0% more
Medium: 97.75% chance to succeed. 22.75% more
Hard: 84% chance to succeed. 24% more
Very Hard: 57.75% chance to succeed. 22.75% more
Nearly Impossible: 19% chance to succeed. 9% more

So the higher levels so scale ever so slightly better, but it's nothing to write home about.

So you're right - the numbers don't scale in any significant way. As I said I'm fine with giving it other boons, but pseudo-Legendary Resistance is already very strong.



I disagree with Death Saves. It's a) a capstone (or effectively so), and b) equivalent to, say, a quickened cantrip, or inferior to a bit of fast healing. Unless I'm forgetting a use for death saves, in which case maybe "you automatically stabilize after one turn" would be better?
If any class altered death saves it should be a cleric. It just doesn't fit the Bard fluff imo.


The point I guess was that BI is worth about one first level spell, so higher level spells should give you more uses.
15 uses of pseudo-Legendary Resistance already concerns me. Adding exponentially more by giving 1 use per spell slot would mean the bard should burn a lot of slots for this effect to always keep inspiration up as that is the most optimal. Even burning any slots already encourages that. Based on that I'd suggest there be no kind of transformation of slots -> Bardic Inspiration.


Rogues eat the Thief subclass alive, and get either Fast Hands or Second Story Work at first and Supreme Sneak or Use Magic Device at 6th.
I do this already. Rogues get thief and monks gets open hand + 1 other archetype.


_______________________




Expertise - when you fail a check with this skill, you may immediately try again one time
we discussed this one over email. But imo if something is the same thing as advantage we should just use advantage to prevent rules bloat.


Expertise - you automatically succeed on moderate skill checks and below (requires a very clear understanding of what moderate means)
The game is about rolling dice! Dice should be rolled! But I can see how this would appeal to some.


Inspiration - you may replace your roll with X if you roll below that number (scales with level, also see the spell Glibness)
Pass Without Trace - If you roll less than 15 on the stealth check, you may treat it as a 15 (see the spell Glibness)
Advantage averages to 13.82 (anydice (http://anydice.com/program/b38)). Setting a minimum is similar, but defeats the different levels of investment that the character currently has.
Also see complaint about Expertise #2.


Inspiration - you ignore all sources of disadvantage on the check, save, or attack
Advantage already cancels out disadvantage. Unless this is meant to cancel out multiple sources of disadvantage, but that's pretty rare to begin with.


Inspiration - for non-proficient checks and saves, add your full proficiency bonus
Advantage already makes pseudo-Legendary Resistance really strong. I don't think that part of it should be buffed at all.

[Kryx]

Bless: After missing a foe with a weapon attack, you may choose to reroll the attack. If you do, you must use the new result and can no longer benefit from this spell.
This is literally what I have written down, but with the word advantage (which can be used before or after)

[Easy_Lee]

Regarding rolling dice, heh, to some degree I suppose I still have a 3.5e mindset. I've always been told that rolling dice is bad; you want to make the other guy roll for failure. In my mind, a feature or spell which removes the need to roll, such as Glibness, is pretty damn good.

One other thing I do like about this sort of approach is that it makes the player not fail on low stuff, but they still have to roll for something truly spectacular. That means that the people who auto succeed on the basic stuff are still better at it, but anyone might make the argument that convinces the evil overlord to spare the party. And so on.

As always, it's just an idea. I'm sure someone else can think of something cooler.

[Kryx]

I had a bit of a change of heart on the small benefits. They don't seem worth changing so I removed bless, bane, guidance, and bend luck from the list.
It seems nice, but in practice it is a reroll which is basically legendary resistance. +2.5 is much less. That balance seems better and I'm not too worried about them breaking the boundings.

Added the frightened and movement to inspiration. Adjusted Cleric's abilities to last a bit longer. I think that is sufficient. Maybe one at 15th, but I couldn't find one that fit.

I considered Shield with a player. I think +4 on Reflex saving throws vs attacks and spells is pretty good. Advantage just doesn't fit the fluff. +4 instead of +5 as it works on spells like fireball. Thoughts?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I had a bit of a change of heart on the small benefits. They don't seem worth changing so I removed bless, bane, guidance, and bend luck from the list.
It seems nice, but in practice it is a reroll which is basically legendary resistance. +2.5 is much less. That balance seems better and I'm not too worried about them breaking the boundings.

Added the frightened and movement to inspiration. Adjusted Cleric's abilities to last a bit longer. I think that is sufficient. Maybe one at 15th, but I couldn't find one that fit.

I considered Shield with a player. I think +4 on Reflex saving throws vs attacks and spells is pretty good. Advantage just doesn't fit the fluff. +4 instead of +5 as it works on spells like fireball. Thoughts?

Expertise is a fine generic ability.
Pass Without Trace looks about a thousand percent better this way.
I'd still add a bit more to Inspiration, I think-- it could still stand to scale a bit better.
I'd have Combat Inspiration just impose Disadvantage. It mirrors Cutting Words that way, but it pretty much did anyway-- +n to AC is equal to -n to opponent's attack.
The Cleric abilities... I dunno, I don't like the revised version so much. +10 was basically saying "your next attack hits," which I think is a fine bonus for a 1/short rest ability. Advantage lacks the same punch.
Superiority Dice feel sad now, though I don't know why. I'm inclined to say that the bonus is small enough that...


Actually, hang on. I think I just hit on an important distinction between Bounded Accuracy on skill checks and on attack rolls-- it's a lot more important for skills, because combat is both
A) Dependent on a large number of rolls to resolve, and
B) Has entirely binary results.
The first point means that results, over time, trend towards the average anyway, making each individual attack less important. But it's the second that really matters here, I think, because there's no degrees of success, no increasing benefits for higher attack rolls. It doesn't matter if you hit by 1 or by 100. Obviously you can have consistently enormous bonuses, because no failure chance isn't fun, but balance is untouched by ephemeral bonuses, no matter how high.


Anyway. The Paladin's aura needs work on the wording-- you talk about limited uses, but what counts as a use of the ability?
The loss of GWM/Sharpshooter seem like a hole that needs filling-- I like that various weapons get unique fighting styles from feats, especially with the UA expansion. What about if you just give up proficiency to attack but add twice your Proficiency to damage? That scales better. Or perhaps a unique replacement-- maybe GMW lets you force the opponent to make a Reflex save instead of you rolling against AC, and Sharpshooter lets you take Disadvantage on your attack to fire two arrows at once, doubling your damage die?


Finally, what's your take on Shield? It sounds like you're keeping it?

[Kryx]

You really like bards, huh? If you think bards are lacking I'd suggest adding something unrelated. Possibly using 4e or PF as inspiration. Overall I think inspiration is in a pretty good spot.

Cleric abilities: The whole point of this system is to remove auto-successes. They are auto-successes.
This is advantage and wisdom on damage for ~4 attacks on average, more if hasted, TWF, opportunity attacks, etc.
That is a pretty a great option. Probably more valuable than the original.

Combat inspiration effects the target, not the creature hitting the target. In Lee and my attacks vs Reflex system they would just get advantage on the reflex save.

1 superiority dice changed, not all of them. The value is similar to the d8 value before.


Auto succeeding, whether in combat, or via skills, is bad imo.


Aura of protection: Cleaned up the 2nd paragraph.
"This feature can be used a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum 1). When you finish a short or long rest, you regain all expended uses."
The goals were:

not use flat charisma because that is rather unbalanced
Have it be based on charisma in some way
Increase the range a bit
Have it be impactful/meaningful

If you think there is a better option I'm open to hearing it.


Shield, as I mentioned above, I'm uncertain about. In our Attacks vs Reflex system I had it as advantage on the saving throw which was effectively a reroll + advantage for a turn, but that flavor feels wrong. In 3.5 and PF it's +4 AC. 4e was +4 AC and Reflex. I assume they chose +5 to match 3/4 cover. What I'm thinking about now is +5 AC (or +4 Reflex vs attacks and spells). Though I'm uncertain here.



Regarding fighting styles: This comes down to design choices. These type of feats heavily limit the options that PCs can use. This was rather apparent in 4e when PCs could only use 1 weapon and if a different magic weapon came along they'd have to retool their whole character. That said I don't mind them terribly too much. Though the ones presented in the UA are very unpolished and would need a lot of work to be balanced with eachother.

To outline what I don't like about those feats:
-5/+10 is either a broken option when combined with any source of advantage or bless or anything of the sort. Or it's a terrible trap option if your GM sends high AC enemies at your. Either way it's bad for gameplay imo.
Sharpshooter: I think it's rather unfortunate that they made all these great rules for cover to balance out melee vs ranged and then setup a feat tax so range can do as much damage as melee without any of the cover concerns. It is my opinion that cover adds to the experience.

Without -5/+10, PAM bonus attack, and ignoring cover the different styles are all in a great balance, much better than normal.
See DPR of Classes (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=2025852255) which compares them RAW and houserules.

If your goal is to compensate the loss of those features with powerful features then you're asking to keep the current balance. By my numbers that current balance heavily disfavors TWF, Monk, and has huge disparities between the martial classes (Look at GWM all the red - that means they are far off the expectations. All the other following items are measured around GWM as a baseline so when that baseline is that bad the rest of the document is that bad as well).

But this is all irrelevant to the current system we're discussing. I only mention -5/+10 in the document because it's rather similar to the boosters, but in the opposite regard.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Aura of Protection still does not work- unless I'm missing something, you're putting a daily use limit on a continual effect.

[Easy_Lee]

What if aura just adds the paladin's CHA to friendly non proficient saves?

[Kryx]

Aura of Protection still does not work- unless I'm missing something, you're putting a daily use limit on a continual effect.
It's not a continual effect. Each time they roll is a usage.

[djreynolds]

I like what the UA Scout does with his skills. He can use SD to supplement them. He only has 4 a short rest, 1d8 and it increases to 1d12 but still there is a chance of failure because you can roll a 1.

How about for every player just gets SD dice for skill purposes? So a fighter could have say 2 plus his intelligence modifier to use per short rest for the 4 skills he's proficient in.

How about rogues and bards? And a rogue would get 4 SD plus his intelligence modifier but he can use an extra dice to represent the expertise in his proficient skills

This way you its like any resource, you want to burn through all your 7th level spell slots, I LOVE TO, then the next fight you will have it tough.