Help with a bladelock no multiclass

[Sir cryosin]

I'm just looking to see the best bladelock we can get with out multiclassing. So I was thinking vhuman for the feat tough. The first 2 invocations are going to be armor of the shadows the one that's give you mage armor, and the second is devil's sight for the 120 dark vision. I'll focus on dex,char,and con. Take pact of the blade my pact blade will be a rapier. If I can get my hands on something to give me a higher str I'll change it to grear sword.

[Xethik]

I'm just looking to see the best bladelock we can get with out multiclassing. So I was thinking vhuman for the feat tough. The first 2 invocations are going to be armor of the shadows the one that's give you mage armor, and the second is devil's sight for the 120 dark vision. I'll focus on dex,char,and con. Take pact of the blade my pact blade will be a rapier. If I can get my hands on something to give me a higher str I'll change it to grear sword.

I think that you'll almost need to use Polearm Master to outshine/keep up with Eldritch Blast spamming. Having a Belt of X Strength and pivoting towards that sounds like a good idea.

[Sir cryosin]

I think that you'll almost need to use Polearm Master to outshine/keep up with Eldritch Blast spamming. Having a Belt of X Strength and pivoting towards that sounds like a good idea.

If I did that I'll be lacking on ac. If I focus to much in str. And there is no guarantee of finding str increasing stuff. So I don't want to invest in polearm master. I also don't like PAM builds.

[bid]

So I was thinking vhuman for the feat tough.
Tough is bad. Especially if you boost your Con.

You can't really go Str without heavy armor and MC since you don't have 2 feats to waste. As Xethik states, you can't be better than EB with those limitations.

[Rysto]

Why not go DEX, pick up Moderately Armoured for your feat and go SnB?

[Iguanodon]

Have you thought about a grapple build? In my opinion, bladelocks make the best grapplers bar none. Hex lets you give disadvantage on Str or Dex checks to break out of the grapple (whichever you think is more likely). With the pact weapon, you can get a one-hander (or even versatile) for when you want to grapple, and a two-hander for when you don't. Grappler feat is a must.

[Sir cryosin]

Why not go DEX, pick up Moderately Armoured for your feat and go SnB?

It is a dex build but everyone wants to make it str.moderately armor don't give shield pro does it and with mage armor gives higher ac then any light or med armor.

[Sir cryosin]

I'm sorry if I'm sounding like a jerk or or unappreciati. Thanks for all ya'll comments. I was thinking about the tough feat because it more health.

[BW022]

I'm just looking to see the best bladelock we can get with out multiclassing. So I was thinking vhuman for the feat tough. The first 2 invocations are going to be armor of the shadows the one that's give you mage armor, and the second is devil's sight for the 120 dark vision. I'll focus on dex,char,and con. Take pact of the blade my pact blade will be a rapier. If I can get my hands on something to give me a higher str I'll change it to grear sword.

You are free to play whatever you like, but realize that a bladelock build is highly inferior to just casting eldritch blast.

As a variant human, you can get an array such as 8, 16, 16, 8, 8, 15. So... you will either have a 16/15 constitution or charisma. You are also shorting a lot of stats which makes for some really bad skill checks and saves.

Hit points are not a good alternative to AC. Mage armor and a +3 dexterity is still only a 16 AC. Even with the 16 constitution, that is only 23 hit points at second level. Expect most creatures to have a +5 attack and do 1d8+3. That is maybe 5 rounds you might be able to stand there. In reality, you'll need to retreat (wasting a turn) after about three rounds. And it gets worse as you level. Soon creatures will be +7 to attack, have multiple attacks, and do 2d6+5 per attack. Nearly all other light armor melee classes have abilities to avoid damage... rogues have bonus action disengage and uncanny dodge, barbarians rage, etc. Such classes can also typically output a lot of damage via rage, sneak attack, etc. which warlocks can't... so you can't out damage them. Such low ACs on a bladelock pretty much mean no concentration spells or abilities. Soaking up damage is a massive drain on the party if you expect them to heal you so much.

If you must go this route... use a strength build. Try an array... such as 16, 10, 14, 8, 8, 15. Take medium armor as your starting feat and use a shield. Gives you an AC 17 (with some gold) and an AC of 20 as soon as you reach 4th. Take toughness at 8th is you really want to. Until then the difference in hit points will easily be made up for the fact you aren't getting hit.

[Rysto]

I really don't understand why you'd recommend a STR build with Medium Armour and a shield? A rapier does the same damage as any one-handed weapon and going DEX means more AC.

[Gastronomie]

Start your first level in Fighter 1 for heavy armor, a fighting style, and CON saves.

I personally feel GWM is the best way to build Bladelocks, at least based on my own experience (if you're getting Lifedrinker, keep in mind that Glaives and Halberds are great weapons too, so PAM and GWM work together).

Spam Darkness + Devil's Sight for advantage on all your attacks + disadvantage on all your enemies' attacks, and use Great Weapon Master to put that advantage... to your advantage (even with -5, easier to hit).

Personally I prefer the fighting style "Defense" to "Great Weapon Fighting", but either is fine.

You should still get Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast though. If possible, Repelling Blast as well.

At low levels, the SCAG Blade cantrips can help.

There are many good "frontline-ish" spells that don't need high CHA - Armor of Agathys, Hex (though can't stack with Darkness so is sorta bad later), Mirror Image, Misty Step, Counterspell, Dispel Magic, the lot.
However, there are also spells like Hold Person, Suggestion, Banishment, and Polymorph (depending on its use) that require high CHA. Also, Lifedrinker is a thing. So it does depend on what spells you want and the level of your campaign whether you wanna invest high in CHA.

The Invocation "Fiendish Vigor" is amazing. It's severely underrated, and also makes Agathys redundant until you hit high levels. False Life says 1d4+4 temporal HP, but since it says you can use it as many times as you want, it pretty much means you have 8 temporal HP at the start of every single battle, making your HP even better than that of a normal Fighter, regardless of your level.
Doesn't mean Dark One's Blessing is redundant, though, especially if you're in the front lines.

I think that's about it I wanna say for now.

[djreynolds]

The thing is, you are in melee. So you need access to the shield spell, or something to avoid being hit. Now mage armor is a 13 + dex, not bad. Tough is fine feat, but I would take resilient con to get proficiency in con saves and a +1.

[Innocent_bystan]

It is a dex build but everyone wants to make it str.moderately armor don't give shield pro does it and with mage armor gives higher ac then any light or med armor.
It does give shield proficiency. Assuming half-plate, 14 Dex and a shield, the bladelock's AC will be 19, 1 more than mage armor and 20 dex' 18.
Without costing an invocation. And while giving +1dex or str.
It's a solid choice for a single classed Bladelock.

[Zalabim]

It is a dex build but everyone wants to make it str.moderately armor don't give shield pro does it and with mage armor gives higher ac then any light or med armor.

Moderately Armored does give Shield Proficiency. You can still use Mage Armor when you get the invocation (I believe the RAI was stated that you can use a shield with Mage Armor). This lets you start with +1 to three stats, or +2 Dex and +1 Charisma. Instead of Uncanny Dodge, Disengage, Sneak Attack, or Rage, you have Armor of Agathys. Try to have it up before combat to give you that defensive edge, and try to get into melee as quickly as possible to also get an offensive edge.

[DivisibleByZero]

Ignore the naysayers.
The math says that a single classed TWFing Dex Bladelock have equivalent or better DPR than Blastlocks, and they can do so while also having a good EB (if you use one of your invocations on Agoonizing).
The truth of the matter is that for approximately 15or 16 of the 20 levels, the Bladelock is just as good or better than the Blastlock, with only the final four (17+) being where the Blastlock surpasses him by any significant margin. And let's be honest, most games don't go that far so it doesn't really matter at that point.
Also ignore people that say increasing Con is better than the Tough feat (which is equivalent to increasing your Con by +4).

[Easy_Lee]

Does it have to be a Dex build? A fiend pact bladelock doesn't really need AC, due to temp HP, armor of agathys, hellish rebuke, and other features which make you not worry too much about being hit. You can rock a greatsword with no armor and be fine.

[DivisibleByZero]

Found it. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?416058-Interesting-Bladelock-Idea/page4&p=19293947#post19293947)


Bladelocks are nowhere near as terrible as you make them out to be. As a matter of fact, it is hands down the strongest Pact choice, by a wide margin.


Chainlocks have a fantastic familiar. This can be useful for scouting, and RP, and all sorts of different out of combat situations.
Familiars in combat are going to be extremely DM dependent. I have heard many people claim that an invisible familiar can Help an ally to grant advantage on attack rolls, by saying mean things and poking enemies in the butt (that's a quote, not me being obtuse). If your DM would allow this, then go for it, but don't count on it. If your DM doesn't allow invisible cretures slinging insults to grant advantage then your familiar is going to get killed if he's in melee range. Very quickly. And very frequently.
Pact of the Chain makes you a regular blaster warlock that has some extra out of combat utility due to an amazing familiar.

Tomelocks can have a couple extra cantrips and great ritual casting.
Their extra cantrips are basically useless in combat, because Eldritch Blast will almost undoubtedly be better. So their extra cantrip choices are useful for out of combat situations. They have amazing ritual casting, but rituals are not used in combat as they take too long, so those are also useful for out of combat situations.
So Pact of the Tome makes you a regular blaster warlock that has some extra out of combat utility in the form of extra cantrips and lots of rituals.

While the other two Pacts focus more on out of combat utility via various means, the Bladelock is a bit different. The Bladelock focuses on adding more combat options, by granting proficiency in any melee weapon you want when you manifest your pact blade, and offering ways to improve your melee aptitude.
So Pact of the Blade makes you a regular blaster warlock that has a viable melee option in combat, which is something that you cannot get from another Pact.

Tthe Ritual Caster feat gives both wizard rituals (a big part of the Tomelock's schtick) and a familiar (a big part of the Chainlock's schtick). So if he wants to, with a single feat a Bladelock can gain a large portion of the other two Pacts' benefits while retaining his own. So not only does a Bladelock have something that the other Pacts cannot get in the form of reliable and competitive melee damage, but he can also get a large portion of their tricks as well.

So for a combat oriented warlock, there is really only one option, and that option is Pact of the Blade.


I have heard many people complain that Bladelocks require more invocations than other types of warlocks. This is simply untrue.

If you choose Pact of the Tome, you are useless without taking Book of Ancient Secrets (available at level three).
That's an invocation tax.

If you choose Pact of the Chain, but do not take Voice of the Chain Master (available at level three), you would literally be better off using Pact of the Tome or the Ritual Caster feat to get your familiar. Not only that, but Chains of Carceri (available at level 15) is free, slotless CC against many outsiders, and you'd be a fool not to take it unless you know for certain that these enemies will not be prevalent in the campaign.
That's two invocation taxes.

If you choose Pact of the Blade, you will take Thirsting Blade (available at level five) and Lifedrinker (available at level 12) to keep your melee damage up to par.
That's two invocation taxes.

So the Chainlock and the Bladelock each have two invocation taxes, while the Tomelock has one.
Not much difference there at all.

Every single warlock that wants to focus on dealing damage will take Agonizing Blast. There's one invocation spoken for right away, for every warlock, no matter your Pact choice, likely right at level two. People like to claim that Bladelocks won't have the same EB that another warlock has, but let me ask you, what are you spending your invocations on prior to level five? Agonizing Blast is one of them.
Every single warlock that wants to offer a little at-will CC will take Repelling Blast. Tomelocks and Chainlocks will likely take this to keep enemies away, while the Bladelock may not because he doesn't mind being in melee.

This means we probably have three invocations spoken for already for the Tomelock: Book of Ancient Secrets, Agonizing Blast, and Repelling Blast.
This means we probably have four invocations spoken for already for the Chainlock: Voice of the Chain Master, Chains of Carceri, Agonizing Blast, and Repelling Blast.
This means we probably have three invocations spoken for already for the Bladelock: Thirsting Blade, Lifedrinker, and Agonizing Blast. Without Repelling, he has three invocation taxes, just like the Tomelock. If he wants, he can take Repelling, bringing the total to four just like the probable Chainlock build.

So tell me, why does everyone think that Bladelocks have some harsh invocation tax? They have no more of an invocation tax than any other warlock has. Saying that they do is simply untrue.


As I have already shown, Bladelocks will have just as good of an EB as any other warlock. They don't suddenly lose the ability to choose EB as a cantrip and its accompanying invocations by taking this Pact, although that's what some people would have you believe.
They may take a little bit longer to get their Charisma to max 20, but that's almost a non-issue in actual play. In actual play, a + or - 1 for a few levels isn't going to ruin your character like some would have you believe.

So let's look at some comparisons, shall we?
We'll make the Chainlock and Tomelock (hereafter named Blastlocks) start with a 16 Cha, raising it at levels 4 and 8, to 18 and 20 respectively.
The Bladelock will begin with a 16 in both Dex and Cha, raising Dex at levels 4 and 12, and Cha at levels 8 and 16. This will leave the Bladelock with a Cha score two points lower than the Blastlock's for a couple of levels here and there.
Zero feats, zero fighting styles, zero house rules, just straight up comparisons that literally any warlock in any game can reasonably expect.
We'll assign +1 weapons at levels 3 and 8 (I was going to do 3 and 6, but that left only the Bladelock at that level, so I postponed it for ease of use), +2 weapons at levels 8 and 11, and +3 weapons at levels 13 and 16. Remember, you only need to find a single finesse weapon. The other weapon can literally be anything, as your Pact allows you to create the weapon in any form you choose.
Blastlocks have no way to increase their EB's damage (only attack and save DCs), so we'll just give them a magical rod to aid in attack rolls at levels 3, 8, and 13.
The levels chosen for the magic items (3, 8, 13 for main, and 8, 11, 16 for off hand) are a bit arbitrary, but seem reasonable.
I will not give the Bladelock a magic rod, so his EB will be at a lower attack bonus. Although swapping weapons was described by the designers as something that should simply be able to happen, which means any time he wanted to swap he should be able to without a problem. But I'll be nice and simply not give him one.

Level 1 Blastlock and Bladelock EB: hex, 16 CHA, +5 vs AC 15
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6 damage = 0.85
55% normal chance for 1d10+1d6 damage = 4.95
Damage = 5.8

Level 1 Bladelock TWF: 2 reg sSwords, hex, 16 DEX, +5 vs AC 15
5% crit chance for 4d6+3 damage = 0.85
5% crit chance for 4d6 damage = 0.7
55% normal chance for 2d6+3 damage = 5.5
55% normal chance for 2d6 damage = 3.85
Damage = 10.9 / 6.35 without bonus action

TWF Bladelock is the clear winner at level 1, even without the use of his bonus action.

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Level 2 Blastlock and Bladelock EB: hex, 16 CHA, +5 vs AC 15
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+3 damage = 1
55% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+3 damage = 6.6
Damage = 7.6

Bladelock TWF remains at 10.9 / 6.35 without bonus action

TWF Bladelock is still the clear winner with his bonus action, and is only 1 pt behind without it.

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Level 3 Blastlock EB: +1 rod, hex, 16 CHA, +6 vs AC 15
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+3 damage = 1
60% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+3 damage = 7.2
Damage = 8.2

Level 3 Bladelock TWF: +1 pact sSword, reg sSword, hex, 16 DEX, +6 and +5 vs AC 15
5% crit chance for 4d6+4 damage = 0.9
5% crit chance for 4d6 damage = 0.7
60% normal chance for 2d6+4 damage = 6.6
55% normal chance for 2d6 damage = 3.85
Damage = 12.05 / 7.5 without bonus action

Bladelock EB remains at 7.6

TWF Bladelock is 4 pts ahead with his bonus action, and less than 1 pt behind without it.
Bladelock's EB is only 1 pt behind the Blastlock's.

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Level 4 Blastlock EB: +1 rod, 18 CHA, +7 vs AC 15
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+4 damage = 1.05
65% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+4 damage = 8.45
Damage = 9.5

Level 4 Bladelock TWF: +1 pact sSword, reg sSword, hex, 18 DEX, +7 and +6 vs AC 15
5% crit chance for 4d6+5 damage = 0.95
5% crit chance for 4d6 damage = 0.7
65% normal chance for 2d6+5 damage = 7.8
60% normal chance for 2d6 damage = 4.2
Damage = 13.65 / 8.75 without bonus action

Bladelock EB remains at 7.6

TWF Bladelock is 4 pts ahead with his bonus action, and is only 1 pt behind without it.
Bladelock's EB is only 2 pts behind the Blastlock's.

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Level 5 Blastlock EB: 2nd blast: +1 rod, hex, 18 CHA, +8 vs AC 16
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+4 damage = 1.05(*2) = 2.1
65% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+4 damage = 8.45(*2) = 16.9
Damage = 19

Level 5 Bladelock TWF: extra attack: +1 pact sSword, reg sSword, hex, 18 DEX, +8 and +7 vs AC 16
5% crit chance for 4d6+5 damage = 0.95(*2) = 1.9
5% crit chance for 4d6 damage = 0.7
65% normal chance for 2d6+5 damage = 7.2(*2) = 14.4
60% normal chance for 2d6 damage = 4.2
Damage = 21.2 / 16.3 without bonus action

Level 5 Bladelock EB: 2nd blast: hex, 16 CHA, +6 vs AC 16
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+3 damage = 1(*2) = 2
55% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+3 damage = 6.6(*2) = 13.2
Damage = 15.2

TWF Bladelock is 2 pts ahead with his bonus action, and is 3 pts behind without it.
Bladelock's EB is 4 pts behind the Blastlock's.

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Level 8 Blastlock EB: +2 rod, hex, 20 CHA, +10 vs AC 16
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(2) = 2.2
75% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 10.5(*2) = 21
Damage = 23.2

Level 8 Bladelock TWF: +2 pact sSword, +1 sSword, hex, 18 DEX, +9 and +8 vs AC 16
5% crit chance for 4d6+6 damage = 1(*2) = 2
5% crit chance for 4d6+1 damage = 0.75
70% normal chance for 2d6+6 damage = 9.1(*2) = 18.2
65% normal chance for 2d6+1 damage = 5.2
Damage = 26.15 / 20.2 without bonus action

Level 8 Bladelock EB: hex, 18 CHA, +7 vs AC 16
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+4 damage = 1.05(*2) = 2.1
60% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+4 damage = 7.8(*2) = 15.6
Damage = 17.7

TWF Bladelock is 3 pts ahead with his bonus action, and is 3 pts behind without it.
Bladelock's EB is 3 pts behind the Blastlock's.

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Level 11 Blastlock EB: 3rd blast, +2 rod, hex, 20 CHA, +11 vs AC 17
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(*3) = 3.3
75% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 10.5(*3) = 31.5
Damage = 34.8

Level 11 Bladelock TWF: +2 pact sSword, +2 sSword, hex, 18 DEX, +10 vs AC 17
5% crit chance for 4d6+6 damage = 1(*2) = 2
5% crit chance for 4d6+2 damage = 0.8
70% normal chance for 2d6+6 damage = 9.1(*2) = 18.2
70% normal chance for 2d6+2 damage = 6.3
Damage = 27.3 / 20.2 without bonus action

Level 11 Blastlock EB: 3rd blast, hex, 18 CHA, +8 vs AC 17
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(*3) = 3.3
60% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 8.4(*3) = 25.2
Damage = 28.5

Level 12 Bladelock TWF: +2 pact sSword, +2 sSword, hex, 20 DEX, 18 CHA, +11 vs AC 17
5% crit chance for 4d6+11 damage = 1.25(*2) = 2.5
5% crit chance for 4d6+2 damage = 0.8
75% normal chance for 2d6+11 damage = 13.5(*2) = 27
75% normal chance for 2d6+2 damage = 6.75
Damage = 37.05 / 29.5 without bonus action

At level 11 the Blastlock pulls ahead with his third blast, and at level 12 the Bladelock catches up again with Lifedrinker. I grouped all of these together.
TWF Bladelock is 2 pts ahead with his bonus action, and is 5 pts behind without it.
Bladelock's EB is 6 pts behind the Blastlock's.

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Level 13 Blastlock EB: +3 rod, hex, 20 CHA, +13 vs AC 17
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(*3) = 3.3
85% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 11.9(*3) = 35.7
Damage = 39

Level 13 Bladelock TWF: +3 pact sSword, +2 sSword, hex, 20 DEX, 18 CHA, +13 and +12 vs AC 17
5% crit chance for 4d6+12 damage = 1.3(*2) = 2.6
5% crit chance for 4d6+2 damage = 0.8
85% normal chance for 2d6+12 damage = 16.15(*2) = 32.3
80% normal chance for 2d6+2 damage = 7.2
Damage = 42.9 / 34.9 without bonus action

Bladelock EB remains at 28.5

TWF Bladelock is 3 pts ahead with his bonus action, and is 4 pts behind without it.
Bladelock's EB is 10 pts behind the Blastlock's.

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Level 16 Blastlock EB: +3 rod, hex, 20 CHA, +13 vs AC 18
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(*3) = 3.3
80% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 11.2(*3) = 33.6
Damage = 36.9

Level 16 Bladelock TWF: +3 pact sSword, +3 sSword, hex, 20 DEX, 20 CHA, +13 vs AC 18
5% crit chance for 4d6+13 damage = 1.35(*2) = 2.7
5% crit chance for 4d6+3 damage = 0.85
80% normal chance for 2d6+13 damage = 16(*2) = 32
80% normal chance for 2d6+3 damage = 8
Damage = 43.55 / 34.7 without bonus action

Level 16 Bladelock EB: hex, 20 CHA, +10 vs AC 18
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(*3) = 3.3
65% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 9.1(*3) = 27.3
Damage = 30.6

TWF Bladelock is 7 pts ahead with his bonus action, and is 2 pts behind without it.
Bladelock's EB is 7 pts behind the Blastlock's.

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Level 17 Blastlock EB: 4th blast, +3 rod, hex, 20 CHA, +14 vs AC 19
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(*4) = 4.4
80% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 11.2(*4) = 44.8
Damage = 49.2

Bladelock TWF remains at 43.55 / 34.7 without bonus action

Level 17 Bladelock EB: 4th blast, hex, 20 CHA, +11 vs AC 19
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(*4) = 4.4
65% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 9.1(*4) = 36.4
Damage = 40.8

And at level 17 the TWF Bladelock finally falls behind, by 5 pts with his bonus action, and by a significant 14 pts behind without it.
Most campaigns don't even go this far, so it is very possible that you may never see a time when your Bladelock's melee damage falls behind that of a Blastlock's EB.
Bladelock's EB is 8 pts behind the Blastlock's.

As you can see, the Bladelock's melee damage stays competitive with, or better than, the Blastlock's EB all the way through level 16. At level 17, the Blastlock pulls ahead by about 5 points.
And this entire time, the Bladelock still has a good EB himself if he wants or needs it.
And remember, I didn't give the Bladelock a magic rod. If he also has one, like the Blastlock, his EB is slightly lower between levels 4-15 due to -1 to hit comparatively because of a slightly lower Cha during those levels. But that -1 to hit doesn't change things very much. Beyond that, at levels 1-3 and 16+ he would have an identical EB to the Blastlock if he also had a rod, and will only be a tiny bit behind (by a couple of points at most) during levels 4-15.

So, in summary:
No, Bladelocks do not have any crazy invocation tax.
No, Bladelocks do not suffer from damage issues.
What Bladelocks do is offer you a second combat option in melee, and that option is fully functional and viable.
The Bladelock can spend a feat to get many of the same goodies as warlocks with other Pacts, while getting something that the Other Pacts have no way to get in a melee option that rivals a Fighter through 19 levels of play.
Why some of you think this is an inferior Pact is beyond me. It is hands down the most powerful Pact available.

edit:
The fact that the SCAG cantrip are available to warlocks now means that any Warlock can have a viable melee option right out of the gate if he wants it. But it still isn't as good as a Bladelock's melee ability.

[RickAllison]

Have you thought about a grapple build? In my opinion, bladelocks make the best grapplers bar none. Hex lets you give disadvantage on Str or Dex checks to break out of the grapple (whichever you think is more likely). With the pact weapon, you can get a one-hander (or even versatile) for when you want to grapple, and a two-hander for when you don't. Grappler feat is a must.

Blade locks are actually pretty terrible for grappling. Unlike Extra Attack, Thirsting Blade is not usable with grappling or shoving. Yes, Hex can penalize one stat or the other, but other casters can use Enlarge or Enhance Strength to gain advantage (and then barbarians can Rage) to affect all checks. Finally, since it is single-class he can't pick up Expertise. Blade locks get a small bonus in Hex that chews up bonus actions, but it is inferior to the effects other classes can take instead.

[bid]

Also ignore people that say increasing Con is better than the Tough feat (which is equivalent to increasing your Con by +4).
No it's not.
- you don't regain HD+2 on short rests
- you don't get +2 to Con save (concentration too)
Maybe if that extra point per level kept you from dropping to 0 you'd have something, but no.


BTW, you cannot have a shortsword in your offhand. Fix your DPR chart.

[DivisibleByZero]

BTW, you cannot have a shortsword in your offhand. Fix your DPR chart.

I like your sig. It's appropriate .

[bid]

I like your sig. It's appropriate .
So, you believe shortsword is a simple weapon. Carry on then.

[DivisibleByZero]

So, you believe shortsword is a simple weapon. Carry on then.

Um, no. But a simple weapon isn't required in your other hand. All that's required is that both weapons be light, which dual short swords are, and as such you can dual wield them. So you're wrong.

[Rysto]

Um, no. But a simple weapon isn't required in your other hand. All that's required is that both weapons be light, which dual short swords are, and as such you can dual wield them. So you're wrong.

Without multiclassing a Warlock won't be proficient with a shortsword though. Only his pact weapon.

[DivisibleByZero]

Without multiclassing a Warlock won't be proficient with a shortsword though. Only his pact weapon.

If you make your pact weapon a short sword, and you are proficient with it, any DM who tells you that you can't use any other short sword when you're already using one with proficiency is just an idiot.

[Easy_Lee]

If you make your pact weapon a short sword, and you are proficient with it, any DM who tells you that you can't use any other short sword when you're already using one with proficiency is just an idiot.

The book says, "You can use your action to create a pact weapon in your empty hand...choose the form this melee weapon takes...you are proficient with it while you wield it."

By RAW, you're proficient with your specific pact weapon. It isn't clear whether that applies to all weapons of the same type. So it's up to the DM to interpret whether proficiency with a shortsword means proficiency with all shortswords. If not, better pick up a dagger (-1 DPR, no big deal), or just hold your arcane focus in that hand.

[DivisibleByZero]

If not, better pick up a dagger (-1 DPR, no big deal),

Less than that.
It doesn't affect the numbers at all if you don't use your bonus action.
With miss/crit chances counted in, it's less than a one point difference if you do use your bonus.
So if your DM is anal retentive, it still doesn't really change anything worth mentioning.... Which is exactly why it would be a jerk move.

[Farecry]

Less than that.
It doesn't affect the numbers at all if you don't use your bonus action.
With miss/crit chances counted in, it's less than a one point difference if you do use your bonus.
So if your DM is anal retentive, it still doesn't really change anything worth mentioning.... Which is exactly why it would be a jerk move.

Assuming he took the time to do/look up the math. Otherwise, it's a completely reasonable ruling going by what the rules say.

[DivisibleByZero]

Assuming he took the time to do/look up the math. Otherwise, it's a completely reasonable ruling going by what the rules say.

That's where we disagree.
I'm not saying he would be wrong to rule so. I'm just saying that him potentially claiming you aren't proficient with the short sword in your off hand, while simultaneously claiming that you are proficient with the short sword in your main hand.... would be asinine. And therefor not reasonable in my mind. Not wrong, but also not "completely reasonable" as you seem to think.

[Easy_Lee]

There have been arguments about the bladelock feature before, since it specifically says you're proficient not with a weapon type from the weapons table, but with a specific weapon. This leads to an odd situation where warlocks could, technically, gain proficiency with a magic weapon which isn't even on the weapons table and is not even meant for players, assuming they could find one.

It's kind of a poorly worded subclass, and not very well thought out.

[MrFahrenheit]

Without multiclassing, all subclasses in 5e are really just specializations in different directions, still dependent upon the primary class for how to optimally play the character.

With that in mind, as a single classed bladelock, you're a caster who can mix it up if necessary; this should not be your go-to, however. You're a primary caster and off-martial. One level elsewhere might radically change your optimal play style, but barring MC, don't have delusions of grandeur regarding the ability to hold your own on the front line next to the barb and pally.

[Easy_Lee]

Without multiclassing, all subclasses in 5e are really just specializations in different directions, still dependent upon the primary class for how to optimally play the character.

With that in mind, as a single classed bladelock, you're a caster who can mix it up if necessary; this should not be your go-to, however. You're a primary caster and off-martial. One level elsewhere might radically change your optimal play style, but barring MC, don't have delusions of grandeur regarding the ability to hold your own on the front line next to the barb and pally.

Would be true of a full caster, but warlocks are a bit odd. Damage wise, a bladelock actually is pretty competitive with those classes as long as they use their spells at the right moments. Hellish Rebuke and Armor of Agathys can provide some serious burst at low levels.

[MrFahrenheit]

Sure can, and then those slots are used up till your next rest in short order.

[Easy_Lee]

Sure can, and then those slots are used up till your next rest in short order.

Just like an action surge resets on a short rest or spell slot used to smite resets on a long rest.

[LordFluffy]

I'm just looking to see the best bladelock we can get with out multiclassing. So I was thinking vhuman for the feat tough. The first 2 invocations are going to be armor of the shadows the one that's give you mage armor, and the second is devil's sight for the 120 dark vision. I'll focus on dex,char,and con. Take pact of the blade my pact blade will be a rapier. If I can get my hands on something to give me a higher str I'll change it to grear sword.
Are you allowed to use the SCAG cantrips?

I'm going to suggest that your first level feat be Magic Initiate. Take Sorceror. 1st Level spell, Shield. SCAG cantrips for your cantrips. If they aren't available, I'd say take shocking grasp (so that if the tide of battle turns against you, you can do damage and withdraw w/o getting hit with an opportunity attack) and Ray of Frost for battlefield control.

Shield is only 1 per Long Rest, but still a good "save my butt" option.

[MrFahrenheit]

Just like an action surge resets on a short rest or spell slot used to smite resets on a long rest.

We're both splitting hairs here. A single classed bladelock can surge into the front line for a little while if necessary, but once those slots are used, they'd be better served spamming EB from safe distances than dueling.

[Easy_Lee]

We're both splitting hairs here. A single classed bladelock can surge into the front line for a little while if necessary, but once those slots are used, they'd be better served spamming EB from safe distances than dueling.

By that logic, so should the rogue be staying back. And the bladesinger.

Edit: Valor bards, too, since their HP and armor are also comparable with the above

[MrFahrenheit]

By that logic, so should the rogue be staying back. And the bladesinger.

Edit: Valor bards, too, since their HP and armor are also comparable with the above

Valor bard would be better served staying back and being an archer...certain builds may permit combos such as hold creature + grappling, but you'd definitely want to get that spell off first. Haven't read up too much about blade singers.

Rogue probably should stay back...only with stealth expertise and hiding as a bonus action, he might not make the most obvious target. Thieves may find melee attractive temporarily when in battle against an equipped enemy, while they're swiping.

Now I'm picturing those bad guys from Skyrim who chase after the general direction your attack came from, only to not notice you and say "huh. Must've been my imagination," with two arrows sticking out of their face.

[Saggo]

We're both splitting hairs here. A single classed bladelock can surge into the front line for a little while if necessary, but once those slots are used, they'd be better served spamming EB from safe distances than dueling.

A Dex TWFer will out-DPR Eldritch Blast for most levels, right until the 4th bolt, and Mage Armor is free. Even with the worst fighting method, Bladelocks are pretty awesome.

[CursedRhubarb]

The important thing to remember is "are you having fun?" I've not tried the blade myself yet (running a GOO Tome build) but I've been doing a mix of melle and ranged as needed and found I've been on par for damage in melee with the raging barbarian as a lvl 3 lock, no feats by using two daggers and Hex. It gives me 2d4+2d6+2 almost every turn and between that, the barbarian, and cleric I've been hit maybe three times since most guys have yet to survive a combined assault and the con saves are not bad yet. With a blade lock you can up your damage with a rapier or scimitar in the main hand. You'll just want to plan out what you use for your invocations and spells and be creative since your spells per combat are limited. (Counterspell on a lock looks like a promising utility since your spell slot level grows. Counter on lvl 5 and lower spells? Yes please!)

[Klorox]

Your request: optimize a single class bladelock.

I suggest making your character a mountain dwarf. You'll get a STR boost (this may or may not matter) and a CON boost (yay!), you'll be proficient in medium armor, and you can use axes and hammers before choosing your blade pact at level 3 (it's a minor thing, but flavorful).

Assuming point buy:

STR 12 DEX 14 CON 16 INT 8 WIS 12 CHA 14 (all that matters is the 14 DEX, 16 CON and 14 CHA).

Alternately, if you wanted to make it a STR build:

STR 16 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 8 WIS 10 CHA 14

Using a war hammer or battle axe two handed for 1d10+3 definitely gives you the feel of a blade pact warlock for levels 1 and 2.

[GlenSmash!]

Your request: optimize a single class bladelock.

I suggest making your character a mountain dwarf. You'll get a STR boost (this may or may not matter) and a CON boost (yay!), you'll be proficient in medium armor, and you can use axes and hammers before choosing your blade pact at level 3 (it's a minor thing, but flavorful).

Assuming point buy:

STR 12 DEX 14 CON 16 INT 8 WIS 12 CHA 14 (all that matters is the 14 DEX, 16 CON and 14 CHA).

Alternately, if you wanted to make it a STR build:

STR 16 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 8 WIS 10 CHA 14

Using a war hammer or battle axe two handed for 1d10+3 definitely gives you the feel of a blade pact warlock for levels 1 and 2.

I second the this but with one addendum. If going Strength based consider Polearms and the Polearm Master Feat.

[Klorox]

I second the this but with one addendum. If going Strength based consider Polearms and the Polearm Master Feat.

I agree with you, but the OP said he doesn't like polearms.

[CursedRhubarb]

Polearms can be effective for a bladelock but you will need to remember that if you have the Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade can trips, they don't work with reach weapons since they only work in 5' reach and polearms hit at 10' so the spell would fail.

[RickAllison]

Polearms can be effective for a bladelock but you will need to remember that if you have the Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade can trips, they don't work with reach weapons since they only work in 5' reach and polearms hit at 10' so the spell would fail.

1) They can hit at 5' at well, so they are still useful at that range.

2) Unconventional as it may be, Spell Sniper applies. It is a spell with an attack roll, it gets doubled range from the feat. Thus, 10' Booming Blade and GFB!

[CursedRhubarb]

1) They can hit at 5' at well, so they are still useful at that range.

2) Unconventional as it may be, Spell Sniper applies. It is a spell with an attack roll, it gets doubled range from the feat. Thus, 10' Booming Blade and GFB!

Ah. I thought they couldn't or it would be at disadvantage or require a feat for an "off-hand" attack to use the hilt to strike and would make it either a pain to hit or not qualify. Good to know but sounds like it would take a high level to get it working well and may leave stats low with needing feats.

[Beelzebub1111]

Mountain Dwarf. 1st Charisma, 2nd Strength, 3rd Con. Dump Dex. Take your first feat in Heavily Armored. Then take whatever weapon feat you like (Unearthed Arcana will have some more. I like Flail Mastery). Then Heavy Armor Master.

Naturally you'll want Lifedrinker and Thirsting Blade, but those are the only necessary ones. As for everything else, take whatever you want depending on the campaign. I prefer Roleplay utility stuff like Beast Speech and Whispers of the Grave. Eyes of the Rune Keeper is also handy.

[BW022]

I really don't understand why you'd recommend a STR build with Medium Armour and a shield? A rapier does the same damage as any one-handed weapon and going DEX means more AC.

It is a matter of ability scores, feats, and weight.

Since you need a high charisma, you are pretty much either strength (16, 10, 14, 8, 8, 15) or dexterity (10, 16, 14, 8, 8, 15). Moderately armored allows a bump of strength or dexterity. (17, 10, 14, 8, 8, 15) or (10, 17, 14, 8, 8, 15).

Yes, both get the same attack and damage. However, at 4th...

Strength has an AC of 20. (18 plate + shield)
Dexterity has an AC of 20 (15 half plate, +shield +3 dexterity) (assuming you take the medium armor mastery feat)

However, strength is now +4 to hit and damage and they reached an 18 strength due to the heavily armored feat. Dexterity build can't get an 18 dexterity until 8th, and the strength could have a 20 by then. Dexterity build also has weight issues. Half-plate and a shield are already over half your max weight limit. You are already weight starved for equipment and in campaigns with encumbrance at -10 movement.

Dexterity builds also loose a key aspect of the bladelock. Bladelocks can summon any weapon and are proficient in it. This means they might wish to summon a two-handed sword, polearm, etc. when not needing the shield. Strength has no limit on weapons, while finesse does. Dexterity only wins in long ranged (non-thrown) weapons, and a bladelock would simply use elditch blast for this.

Strength is also often better for grappling, defense against shoves, and other things you would be taking up front.

Finally, having reached an 18 strength by 4th-level, you have more options for 8th -- toughness, constitution increase, heavy armor mastery, etc. -- while the dexterity build is pretty much committed to a dexterity increase -- just to reach an attack bonus where the strength build was four levels ago (and the strength build could get to a 20 and still be ahead).

It's a matter of taste. Baring really wanting stealth... mechanically strength is better once you reach 4th.