[Drop Dead Studios] Vigilantes of Skybourne

[Ssalarn]

Hello! If you have any interest in the vigilante class, Skybourne, and/or Spheres of Power, you should check out Drop Dead Studio's Vigilantes of Skybourne (https://docs.google.com/document/d/10C-K2oEiUlBSW0QBKBGaPapJ1RTCypEm6x6LwaCO8X8/edit?usp=sharing)!

Included in this release are new vigilante archetypes, new vigilante racial archetypes for the Skybourne races, new prestige classes, new vigilante Specialties, new vigilante talents including Mutations that grant your vigilante sphere-based super-powers, new social talents, and vigilante FCBs for the Skybourne races.

***UPDATE***

The Luchador playtest is closed, and the class is now available for purchase through Paizo and OBS / DrivethruRPG. Thank you to everyone who provided their feedback and playtesting! Vigilantes will continue to be available for playtesting through the end of the month.

[khadgar567]

Love the luchador class and thanks for oil werstling archtype

[Ssalarn]

Love the luchador class and thanks for oil werstling archtype

Turkish oil wrestling may be one of the most under-appreciated sports in the world. Except for, you know, in Turkey.

Glad you like it!

[khadgar567]

can luchador choose vigilante archtype

[stack]

I'll have to take a look. In sure it will be more interesting than the class is now.

[stack]

Oil wrestler sip and strike - so this doesn't actually work if a grapple against you just fails because they missed you CMD, since the language requires you to make a check. Same with resisting swallow whole, the enemy is making a cmb check verses your static cmd. When you get freedom of movement it works I believe due to the wording you used there. I expect you meant for it to trigger when the cmb against you fails, so may want to reword.

Directed momentum doesn't list a level. Also really late for a freedom of movement counter based in the assumed intended level.

Iron lord get armor at 1? Probably should specify since it replaces abilities at 1 and 2. No effect on identity changing time?

Over watch - ranger AC progression? So you wait until 4 for your shtick and can't use it until to take boon companion at 5 so it isn't made of tissue paper? Eyes in the sky doesn't list a level.

Call truce is a stupid feat that's very existence locks people out of just doing something they could before a feat was written to tell them they needed a feat to do it. Adding it to an archetype unfortunately reinforced its existence, but I suppose there's nothing to be done about that.:smallmad:

Reimagined are great. Powerful ability to not lose anything though. Don't think it's a big problem, but created are a nice race as it is, optimization-wise, so the archetype does stand up tall compared to the base class or other options. Probably needs a stacking note as well, since it changes the whole dual identity thing, which other archetypes also modify but in ways that would work together. Created reimagined sky marine makes sense, for example.

Technophile - no pistol until 2 and the pistol doesn't replace anything?

Winged terror - no stat to bomb damage or way to get different damage types?

Hellsworn gets a fixed DC poison? That is...well not good. By the level you get it DC 13 is bad and gets worse, plus immunities. Needs scaling.

[Ssalarn]

can luchador choose vigilante archtype

I've been looking at making some notes to the luchador similar to the Brawler or Warpriest, allowing his Luchador levels to count as Monk levels for feat prereqs and special options, I could probably look at making it compatible with Vigilante archetypes while I'm at it, but I don't know that it retains enough vigilante class features to qualify for many.


Oil wrestler sip and strike - so this doesn't actually work if a grapple against you just fails because they missed you CMD, since the language requires you to make a check. Same with resisting swallow whole, the enemy is making a cmb check verses your static cmd. When you get freedom of movement it works I believe due to the wording you used there. I expect you meant for it to trigger when the cmb against you fails, so may want to reword.

Thanks for the catch.



Directed momentum doesn't list a level. Also really late for a freedom of movement counter based in the assumed intended level.

I'll update that. Also, I intentionally delayed it on the luchador abilities to where it's generally going to be a constant for spellcasters, rather than a "oh crap, better burn this now or life's going to suck". I had a few instances with some tetori NPCs that got a bit frustrating for our arcanist, where he was burning his highest level spell to avoid getting grappled and no one cared. If it's truly problematic to have it arrive so late though, I can certainly look at shifting that to an earlier access point.



Iron lord get armor at 1? Probably should specify since it replaces abilities at 1 and 2. No effect on identity changing time?

At 1, yes. There are so many archetypes that affect changing time, I didn't feel like this one needed to get that benefit, especially since the armorist armor is a pretty strong perk for the cost.



Over watch - ranger AC progression? So you wait until 4 for your shtick and can't use it until to take boon companion at 5 so it isn't made of tissue paper? Eyes in the sky doesn't list a level.

It's primarily a scout, so I don't really expect it to be used in combat right out of the gate. Ranger progression also seemed about right for the cost. I'll fix Eyes in the Sky, thanks for the catch!



Call truce is a stupid feat that's very existence locks people out of just doing something they could before a feat was written to tell them they needed a feat to do it. Adding it to an archetype unfortunately reinforced its existence, but I suppose there's nothing to be done about that.:smallmad:


Noted.



Reimagined are great. Powerful ability to not lose anything though. Don't think it's a big problem, but created are a nice race as it is, optimization-wise, so the archetype does stand up tall compared to the base class or other options. Probably needs a stacking note as well, since it changes the whole dual identity thing, which other archetypes also modify but in ways that would work together. Created reimagined sky marine makes sense, for example.

Yeah, I know the Reimagined trade is pretty strong for costing basically nothing at this point, but the created are so unique looking, I figured it was kind of necessary just for the vigilante identity to make sense. If there's only one guy in town with 6 arms or 2 heads, it strains credulity to think that no one's going to make that connection. I'll look at updating the archetype stacking verbage.



Technophile - no pistol until 2 and the pistol doesn't replace anything?

Pistol is supposed to replace the 2nd level vigilante talent; I've updated this. The idea is that the technophile is lugging this nonfunctional family heirloom around and finally has enough technical proficiency to get it up and running at 2nd. I think it's appropriate for the relative power of having a laser pistol that he can recharge for free.



Winged terror - no stat to bomb damage or way to get different damage types?


Currently that's correct, no stat to damage. The winged terror pays a lot less for the bombs than the alchemist does. There's a vigilante talent that allows characters with the bombardier or bomb class feature to select bomb discoveries.



Hellsworn gets a fixed DC poison? That is...well not good. By the level you get it DC 13 is bad and gets worse, plus immunities. Needs scaling.

It gets enough of the poison that it should be able to stack the DC up relatively quickly, but I can look at shifting it to a scaling formula.

[stack]

Enigma doesn't gain the normal 2 bonus talents, so there needs to be language saying that if you take a casting class afterwords you will get them to prevent everyone from wanting to dip another class at 1 to not lose the talents.

[Ssalarn]

Enigma doesn't gain the normal 2 bonus talents, so there needs to be language saying that if you take a casting class afterwords you will get them to prevent everyone from wanting to dip another class at 1 to not lose the talents.

Talked it over with Adam, we decided it wasn't a big deal for them to get the bonus talents, so the line preventing this was removed.

Other changes-

We decided the Sky Marine should start play with access to his ship, so that's been updated.

Possessed now have Armorist Caster progression, and the Mutation talents have been cleaned up to universally refer to caster levle, with the exception of mutation DCs which will continue to be based on class level.

Made a minor adjustment to the Technophile, purely fluff making the explanation for his laser pistol coming online at 2nd level a bit less awkward.

Fixed the Hellsworn's Imp Poison ability to scale with class level.

Made a minor adjustment to the Inspiring Vigilante's Symbol of Hope ability that will hopefully clear up any confusion regarding totem ability use.

Winged Terror no longer uses Charisma for the DC and number of bombs his Bombardier ability grants him; I realized we'd removed the only two vigilante abilities that are actually Charisma reliant with other pieces of the archetype already, so Winged Terrors can invest in Int and be a little more thematically in line with their alchemical abilities.

Upcoming-
Going to make a few tweaks to the Luchador, give players more "fiddly bits" so they're less locked in to their choices, and open up the class a bit, allowing it to skip Int and Combat Expertise prereqs, treat luchador levels as monk levels for feat prereqs and abilities, and clarifying that the luchador uses his class level as his vigilante level for social talents. Also going to make some adjustments to the stables so that each one focuses a bit more on a different type of maneuver or trick, though I mostly won't be messing with the abilities that are currently there, just filling them out a bit.

I'll be updating verbage on the Iron Lord to clarify when/how he can reassign armor types, enchantments, and bonuses for his bonded armor.

And there's a few more archetypes, social talents, feats, and at least one more prestige class that will be added in as well.

[digiman619]

How horrible is it that I want to use the luchadore in my next Ponyfinder games, just because they are "trained in stables"?

[khadgar567]

How horrible is it that I want to use the luchadore in my next Ponyfinder games, just because they are "trained in stables"?
nice pun mate

[Ssalarn]

How horrible is it that I want to use the luchadore in my next Ponyfinder games, just because they are "trained in stables"?

High five, bro. I also own Ponyfinder and am now doing this at the first opportunity. As a pegasus. Sumo.

Unrelated- What do people think of the name "Inspiring Vigilante" for that archetype? Would "Living Flag/Symbol/Banner" be better?

[stack]

Possessed - outsiders can't pick an elemental subtype instead of alignment? Seems like it would be a nice option.

Extra magic talent - if the bonus to caster level stacks, this is potentially problematic as you could just take it with every talent and I presume there is a feat for more vigilante talents, making your CL far too high especially when starting on a midcaster. If it doesn't stack, then it's a pretty minor bonus. Either way it should be called out. I fit only applies to one sphere, rather than global CL that should be called out too.

Half surprised there isn't a hedgewitch tradition that gets vigilante talents. Hedgewitch gets everything! (Of course, having vigilante talents available and not being saddled with social talents would be rather stronger than the vigilante).

[Ssalarn]

Possessed - outsiders can't pick an elemental subtype instead of alignment? Seems like it would be a nice option.


It would be. I'll add that in.



Extra magic talent - if the bonus to caster level stacks, this is potentially problematic as you could just take it with every talent and I presume there is a feat for more vigilante talents

There is no feat for more Vigilante talents, because Vigilante talents are distinctly better than feats.



, making your CL far too high especially when starting on a midcaster. If it doesn't stack, then it's a pretty minor bonus. Either way it should be called out. I fit only applies to one sphere, rather than global CL that should be called out too.

I've limited it to being taken up to three times.



Half surprised there isn't a hedgewitch tradition that gets vigilante talents. Hedgewitch gets everything! (Of course, having vigilante talents available and not being saddled with social talents would be rather stronger than the vigilante).

I mean, if it's something people really want... I just didn't see the need for it.

[MilleniaAntares]

For the Luchador, is it intentional that Maneuver Training only applies to CMB and not CMD?

[stack]

Are light daggers intended to be useable in a full attack? Base ability doesn't specify an action but says 'as a ranged attack'. Not sure if anything happens when applying gather energy, greater blast, etc.wind rider duration for flight speed?

[Ssalarn]

Are light daggers intended to be useable in a full attack? Base ability doesn't specify an action but says 'as a ranged attack'. Not sure if anything happens when applying gather energy, greater blast, etc.wind rider duration for flight speed?

All mutations, including light daggers, are a standard action per the general rules on mutations. You can take the Rapid Daggers talent to full attack with them.

Wind Rider duration has been clarified.


For the Luchador, is it intentional that Maneuver Training only applies to CMB and not CMD?

Nope. I'll be correcting that as I update the class.

[Ssalarn]

Update:

Added the Secret Police archetype.

Added the "Repurpose" class feature to the Reimagined archetype.

Added new feats.

Added the Prophesied vigilante Specialty.

Updated the Sky Marine.

Updated the luchador with new bonus feats and expanded stable benefits.

Currently on track to wrap playtesting and development sometime between the 30th of this month and the 8th of July.

[Mehangel]

Some thoughts:

1st, Tertiary Identity feat: I would probably change its prerequisites so that it wasn't vigilante specific. Require dual identity class feature yes, but not vigilante level 8. My reasoning is that eventually other class archetypes may grant dual identity, and I am not a fan of class specific feats.

2nd, I think it would be cool if this book had a sidebar or section devoted to non-vigilante class vigilante PC's. The section could explain how PC's might utilize Bluff, Disguise, etc to form an identity (with rules on how the identity compares to the one the vigilante uses).

[Ssalarn]

Some thoughts:

1st, Tertiary Identity feat: I would probably change its prerequisites so that it wasn't vigilante specific. Require dual identity class feature yes, but not vigilante level 8. My reasoning is that eventually other class archetypes may grant dual identity, and I am not a fan of class specific feats.


Good call, and done. I've updated per your suggestion.



2nd, I think it would be cool if this book had a sidebar or section devoted to non-vigilante class vigilante PC's. The section could explain how PC's might utilize Bluff, Disguise, etc to form an identity (with rules on how the identity compares to the one the vigilante uses).

So, that may or may not fit within the context of the book, but I think it's a really good idea. I've got about 1,500 words left to play with before I hit my cap (not nearly as much as it might sound), so once I finish with the section on converting UI archetypes to spheres and plug in the last few feats and mutations, I'll see if that can't be worked in.

Thank you for the suggestions!

[Mehangel]

So, that may or may not fit within the context of the book, but I think it's a really good idea. I've got about 1,500 words left to play with before I hit my cap (not nearly as much as it might sound), so once I finish with the section on converting UI archetypes to spheres and plug in the last few feats and mutations, I'll see if that can't be worked in.

My main reason for suggesting such a section is that the Diviner's Handbook includes an Advanced Talent for the Divination sphere called, Divine Identity. The last paragraph includes text that supports and suggests acquiring and using an alias to detect as different people (by means other than the vigilante class).

[Ssalarn]

My main reason for suggesting such a section is that the Diviner's Handbook includes an Advanced Talent for the Divination sphere called, Divine Identity. The last paragraph includes text that supports and suggests acquiring and using an alias to detect as different people (by means other than the vigilante class).

I'll definitely look into that then.

[khadgar567]

İs there any chance luchador get martial disipline( aka something like fools erand but focusing on grapling and showman ship)

[Ssalarn]

İs there any chance luchador get martial disipline( aka something like fools erand but focusing on grapling and showman ship)

Probably not? Like I mentioned earlier, I'm already really close to my word count, and making Luchador a maneuver based class would mean I'd have to remove other material. I really like the idea though; if enough people dig the luchador, maybe I'll do it as an archetype or expansion type thing in another book.

[khadgar567]

Probably not? Like I mentioned earlier, I'm already really close to my word count, and making Luchador a maneuver based class would mean I'd have to remove other material. I really like the idea though; if enough people dig the luchador, maybe I'll do it as an archetype or expansion type thing in another book.
yes yes yes

[Mehangel]

I have an idea for a feat:

Practiced Vigilante
Prerequisite: social talent or vigilante talents as a class feature.
Benefit: Your effective vigilante level is 4 higher for the purpose of meeting vigilante or social talent prerequisites.

My reason for wanting such a feat, is that there are several social and vigilante talents which I feel should be available at 1st level, but have a prerequisite of 'vigilante level 3rd', '5th', etc. Having this feat available will allow for particular builds to become available at 1st level while still expending a valuable resource.

[digiman619]

I have an idea for a feat:

Practiced Vigilante
Prerequisite: social talent or vigilante talents as a class feature.
Benefit: Your effective vigilante level is 4 higher for the purpose of meeting vigilante or social talent prerequisites.

My reason for wanting such a feat, is that there are several social and vigilante talents which I feel should be available at 1st level, but have a prerequisite of 'vigilante level 3rd', '5th', etc. Having this feat available will allow for particular builds to become available at 1st level while still expending a valuable resource.

With respect, there's no way that'd work. Compare it to Fighter's Blade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/fighter-s-blade) or Student of the Astral Suit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/student-of-the-astral-suit) they all limit you to 4 levels, up to your HD. I can't see them letting you bypass that.

[Ssalarn]

I have an idea for a feat:

Practiced Vigilante
Prerequisite: social talent or vigilante talents as a class feature.
Benefit: Your effective vigilante level is 4 higher for the purpose of meeting vigilante or social talent prerequisites.

My reason for wanting such a feat, is that there are several social and vigilante talents which I feel should be available at 1st level, but have a prerequisite of 'vigilante level 3rd', '5th', etc. Having this feat available will allow for particular builds to become available at 1st level while still expending a valuable resource.


digiman619 hit it right on the head. While agree that some of the level gating is a bit odd (and I've avoided unnecessary level gating as much as possible in this supplement), that's the kind of feat that catches flak, especially when there's so many points of comparison (Boon Companion would be another).

Out of curiosity, what talents would you want to come online earlier? What character concept do you feel is getting unnecessarily restricted? Maybe we can find another way to get you there.

[Mehangel]

digiman619 hit it right on the head. While agree that some of the level gating is a bit odd (and I've avoided unnecessary level gating as much as possible in this supplement), that's the kind of feat that catches flak, especially when there's so many points of comparison (Boon Companion would be another).

I am not disagreeing entirely, but in the case of feats such as Fighter's Blade or Student of the Astral Suit, they actually progress the strength of the class features, the feat I suggested only allows you to select and gain talents that you otherwise wouldn't be able to from level alone.


Out of curiosity, what talents would you want to come online earlier? What character concept do you feel is getting unnecessarily restricted? Maybe we can find another way to get you there.

Looking over the list most of the social talents I would be interested in also have the prerequisite of the renown social talent (such as celebrity perks, loyal aid, or triumphant return), which means they wouldn't be able to be selected at level 1 anyways. Another talent that I would've liked available was quick transformation, but it requiring level 7 would mean that such a feat would allow the talent to be gained at level 3. The only other talents I would've liked access to were many guises and mockingbird.

Of these social talents listed, the only one that I really would've liked early access to was actually quick transformation (as even the magical child archetype has a time limit far too long for my tastes. 5 rounds really? If combat erupts, it will be over by the time I change personas, and most games I participate in are from levels 1-10, which means that for 70% of the game I will be stuck in one of the two personas).

[Ssalarn]

I am not disagreeing entirely, but in the case of feats such as Fighter's Blade or Student of the Astral Suit, they actually progress the strength of the class features, the feat I suggested only allows you to select and gain talents that you otherwise wouldn't be able to from level alone.

The issue is that those class features are gated for a reason (not necessarily always a good reason, but a reason). Adding the suggested feat is also not necessarily a great design choice in that it's not forward compatibility safe. If there's a Social talent that legitimately would need to be gated at a certain point for balance reasons, we've undermined the ability of future designers to successfully use those gating tools.


***Of these social talents listed, the only one that I really would've liked early access to was actually quick transformation (as even the magical child archetype has a time limit far too long for my tastes. 5 rounds really? If combat erupts, it will be over by the time I change personas, and most games I participate in are from levels 1-10, which means that for 70% of the game I will be stuck in one of the two personas).

If anime has taught me anything, it's that everyone else will patiently wait and watch your transformation sequence :smalltongue:

No promises, but I'll ruminate on your request and examples, see if something doesn't come to me.

[khadgar567]

İs there any way vigilante can be used to create organized crime boss( aka same chasis but polar oposite idea they use dual identity to hide the ilegal parts of their work)

[Ssalarn]

İs there any way vigilante can be used to create organized crime boss( aka same chasis but polar oposite idea they use dual identity to hide the ilegal parts of their work)



Honestly I don't think you'd need to change the class at all for that, maybe just refluff it a bit. Neat idea for an archetype though....

[digiman619]

Honestly I don't think you'd need to change the class at all for that, maybe just refluff it a bit. Neat idea for an archetype though....

If you you do, call the archetype Rudo; it's the lucha term for heel.

[EldritchWeaver]

I looked through your document and found a number of places with typos, etc. As I detest copying text around and mention the problem in a hopeful understandable way, I instead created a copy (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1r18SBWPd_2E80mk5PoQ8s6BwutKwUef_Yo2OcJOPOGM/edit?usp=sharing) of the playtest document, which I can simply comment on. I really don't get what the reason is that not even commenting is allowed on such documents. Other authors have no problems with that setup.

[Ssalarn]

I looked through your document and found a number of places with typos, etc. As I detest copying text around and mention the problem in a hopeful understandable way, I instead created a copy (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1r18SBWPd_2E80mk5PoQ8s6BwutKwUef_Yo2OcJOPOGM/edit?usp=sharing) of the playtest document, which I can simply comment on. I really don't get what the reason is that not even commenting is allowed on such documents. Other authors have no problems with that setup.

Some authors leave it open, some don't. Traditionally I haven't done it because, well, the internet. It can get really difficult to sort through to the useful feedback, like what you've provided here, when the comments column is wide open, and I need to be able to quickly and easily find commentary from, for example, Adam regarding the contents. It's doubly important that I be able to sift through quickly since we'll be wrapping this playtest shortly.
Thank you for taking the time to provide your editing notes and feedback!

[Ssalarn]

If you you do, call the archetype Rudo; it's the lucha term for heel.

So, Adam announced it over on the Paizo threads (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2trj6?Drop-Dead-Studios-New-Hybrid-Class-the-Luchador), but we're going to spin the Luchador into its own release, and Rudo will be one of the new archetypes I'm adding now that we've opened up a bunch of word count. In addition to some dirty trick type stuff, I'm thinking he might need a crooked entourage or something similar, and maybe even a social talent for having people who manipulate his reputation outside of the ring for him. Thanks for the feedback!

[digiman619]

So, Adam announced it over on the Paizo threads (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2trj6?Drop-Dead-Studios-New-Hybrid-Class-the-Luchador), but we're going to spin the Luchador into its own release, and Rudo will be one of the new archetypes I'm adding now that we've opened up a bunch of word count. In addition to some dirty trick type stuff, I'm thinking he might need a crooked entourage or something similar, and maybe even a social talent for having people who manipulate his reputation outside of the ring for him. Thanks for the feedback!

Yay, I helped!

[khadgar567]

So, Adam announced it over on the Paizo threads (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2trj6?Drop-Dead-Studios-New-Hybrid-Class-the-Luchador), but we're going to spin the Luchador into its own release, and Rudo will be one of the new archetypes I'm adding now that we've opened up a bunch of word count. In addition to some dirty trick type stuff, I'm thinking he might need a crooked entourage or something similar, and maybe even a social talent for having people who manipulate his reputation outside of the ring for him. Thanks for the feedback!
İs that mean we get martial disipline for luchador

[tekevil]

Living Flag
A very cool idea and it gives the player a chance to add some additional teamwork to what would otherwise be considered a selfish class. I like the idea!

Flag Raising:
Definitely a cool concept, but I think a scaling bonus may be more appropriate as +2 AC becomes less and less worthwhile as you grow in level and enemy attack bonuses become ridiculous.

Iron Lord
Seems like a solid archetype that can mix with a lot. Makes a Kamen Rider character a little more possible

Secret Police
Seems more NPC only since it gives connections that I wouldn't want a player to have at the start. Does seem appropriate for the job though, so I'd definitely use it with an NPC.


Sky Marine
offers a lot to make a ship sturdier, which is really wanted! The second point on War Form seems rather limited? All it does is lower their attack rolls while performing an AoO against you?

Overwatch
Great idea, but I wish the two talents at 4th and 6th level were spaced a little farther since you don't get to pick any talents between 2nd and 8th level. You mention bat or bird, but big birds such as Rocs are available too, maybe make the examples "Bat and Roc" so people can better see their possibilities.

Ebon Phoenix
Love the fluff, but this archetype is incredibly limited in the types of campaigns you can bring them into since the fey bonuses has difficult and lengthy criteria to be changed.

Enigma
Fricken love it! I think access to Enigma Talents and half-casterness is a good trade.

Possessed
Like a more defensively focused Enigma with lower caster level due to the crazy immunities of undead and construct. Even with the DR I feel outsider got the short end of the stick though since the type traits aren't what set outsiders apart, it's the crazy SLA they get.

Mutation talents
How you tied this into spheres was really great.
FireBreather: Can you spend a spell point to do level in d6 damage?

Social Talents
Fills some holes that Paizo left and gives some more skyborne functionality, great to see! Big fan of copycat.


Feats
Some cool melee combat stuff and then tertiary identity! I love having more identity access!
Cloaked Throw: " If successful, you must immediately use the throw ability granted by Shoulder Throw against that opponent." Shoulder Throw only grants you a throw when you maintain a grapple, so this does not make sense. Do you mean that you can use the throw as if you maintained a grapple with shoulder throw?

[Ssalarn]

İs that mean we get martial disipline for luchador

Talked to Adam about it, and yeah, we're looking at the possibility of doing an initiator archetype and lucha libre themed discipline :)

@tekevil
Thanks so much for your notes! I've already started making a couple tweaks based on them (like making the Cloaked Throw/Shoulder Throw interaction a little clearer), and I'll try and respond to each item individually this evening.

[stack]

I once considered making a bullrush/grapple themed discipline, including wielding enemies. Never got around to it.

I would look at fool's errand, I haven't read it yet but I honk there is a fair bit that might be relevant.

[Ssalarn]

I once considered making a bullrush/grapple themed discipline, including wielding enemies. Never got around to it.

I would look at fool's errand, I haven't read it yet but I honk there is a fair bit that might be relevant.

What I'm picturing is going to end up looking very different from Fool's Errand, but thanks for the advice!


Living Flag
A very cool idea and it gives the player a chance to add some additional teamwork to what would otherwise be considered a selfish class. I like the idea!


Excellent!



Flag Raising:
Definitely a cool concept, but I think a scaling bonus may be more appropriate as +2 AC becomes less and less worthwhile as you grow in level and enemy attack bonuses become ridiculous.

Now, the intent is that it's an untyped bonus, so you can have multiple allies all make the check to stack the bonus up beyond the +2, so the more allies are able to pile on, the more likely the attack is to miss.



Iron Lord
Seems like a solid archetype that can mix with a lot. Makes a Kamen Rider character a little more possible


I recently updated the suits of armor so you have a bit more flexibility and the ability to customize three different suits. Let me know what you think!



Secret Police
Seems more NPC only since it gives connections that I wouldn't want a player to have at the start. Does seem appropriate for the job though, so I'd definitely use it with an NPC.

Making this a little less "campaign specific" is something Adam and I have been discussing for a bit, though we haven't quite reached the "right" way we'd want to change it.



Sky Marine
offers a lot to make a ship sturdier, which is really wanted! The second point on War Form seems rather limited? All it does is lower their attack rolls while performing an AoO against you?

I'll look into seeing if there isn't a way to make that a little... flashier? Mostly I've used it in playtest as an option for performing untrained combat maneuvers or disengaging, so you have more options in combat.



Overwatch
Great idea, but I wish the two talents at 4th and 6th level were spaced a little farther since you don't get to pick any talents between 2nd and 8th level. You mention bat or bird, but big birds such as Rocs are available too, maybe make the examples "Bat and Roc" so people can better see their possibilities.

I adjusted this one so that it's now 2nd and 6th level, giving you a flexible choice at 4th. Also changed the scaling to full class level instead of class level -4. Bird was meant to specifically refer to the "bird" animal companion.



Ebon Phoenix
Love the fluff, but this archetype is incredibly limited in the types of campaigns you can bring them into since the fey bonuses has difficult and lengthy criteria to be changed.

I'll look at making it a little easier to swap out the favored enemy, but I definitely don't want it being too easy since favored enemy swapping is a really powerful option.

***EDIT***
I've made Feyland Stalker a little easier to adapt to a new favored enemy type, and made the capstone ability damage and DC boost key off of whatever favored enemy type is currently selected by feyland stalker.



Enigma
Fricken love it! I think access to Enigma Talents and half-casterness is a good trade.

Glad you love it! I thought that a cool way to create customizable super powers was something the vigilante really needed.



Possessed
Like a more defensively focused Enigma with lower caster level due to the crazy immunities of undead and construct. Even with the DR I feel outsider got the short end of the stick though since the type traits aren't what set outsiders apart, it's the crazy SLA they get.

Let me look into maybe creating a list of SLAs for the Outsider package to choose from. Probably going to be realtively limited, but I bet can come up with something.



Mutation talents
How you tied this into spheres was really great.
FireBreather: Can you spend a spell point to do level in d6 damage?

Thank you! And currently no, but that's an oversight on my part which I'll be correcting.



Social Talents
Fills some holes that Paizo left and gives some more skyborne functionality, great to see! Big fan of copycat.


Copycat should be a really fun social option :smallbiggrin: I'll also be adding more social talents since the ones that are leaned more towards the luchador will be transferred into his new handbook.



Feats
Some cool melee combat stuff and then tertiary identity! I love having more identity access!
Cloaked Throw: " If successful, you must immediately use the throw ability granted by Shoulder Throw against that opponent." Shoulder Throw only grants you a throw when you maintain a grapple, so this does not make sense. Do you mean that you can use the throw as if you maintained a grapple with shoulder throw?

I've updated Cloaked Throw to be more clear on that point.

[Ssalarn]

The OP has been updated with a direct link to the Luchador hybrid class (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-EMwp8kXtTIxLuC2c19u0eLiPp8yL8o0FDkEnqxuelg/edit?usp=sharing). This is an in-progress playtest, and the document is live, with new materials being added daily.
The Luchador will be available for playtest until the 7/15/16, at which point we'll be sending it off for final editing and layout.

Adam has decided to extend the Vigilantes of Skybourne playtest through the end of the month, and we've opened up some word count there by moving the Luchador to its own release, so feel free to check out the additional materials we've added to that playtest as well.

[khadgar567]

small question about luchador using cma to put wizard in arm lock( lets say kimura) can mage still cast spells or no spells until he free himself(no somatic components for casting)?
as second question to first one what about breaking the arm instead of keeping armlock to incapacitate him?
plus how effective gonna be choke holds

[A.J.Gibson]

How about some way of doing Bane from Batman? A luchador with a mutagen who can pick up other alchemists secrets as well.

[stack]

How about some way of doing Bane from Batman? A luchador with a mutagen who can pick up other alchemists secrets as well.

That would be cool. Ditch the social stuff for alchemical stuff? Not sure on all the trade-outs since you don't want to shift power too severely.

[stack]

Do the enigma and possessed really need to be locked into charisma? I know it's easy enough to change with dips or the one trait from geomancer's, but I would rather see it open to natively support more concepts.

A possessed with the construct type is a pretty huge deal, losing Con score, massive pile of immunities, changes to healing, etc. Seems potentially problematic.

Speaking of potentially difficult types, why not toss plant on the list? Or dragon or fey?

Bestial form talent - limiting it to talents with bestial or animalistic is pretty narrow. I have it on good authority that some relevant talents in the alteration expansion don't have either in their names.:smalltongue:

Deathly bonds: duration? The swift works for one attack, one round, indefinitely?

Full SP costs apply to any talent applied to a mutation (force breath with fire breath for example)? I presume so, might not hurt to call it out in the general text.

Light daggers and anything else calling out charisma - change to casting ability modifier to allow them to work when multiclassing, please. Future proofs it even if you don't agree with my suggestion of opening up the casting stat.

How does speedster interact with the improved haste talent? If you are burning a swift action every round you should get the full benefit of haste. Maybe give it a duration so you aren't losing your swifts forever? Even if it's just a spellpoint option.

[EldritchWeaver]

Bestial form talent - limiting it to talents with bestial or animalistic is pretty narrow. I have it on good authority that some relevant talents in the alteration expansion don't have either in their names.:smalltongue:

Man, I never get the inside scoops. :smallwink:

[Ssalarn]

How about some way of doing Bane from Batman? A luchador with a mutagen who can pick up other alchemists secrets as well.

Love it, and am working on writing it up now!


Do the enigma and possessed really need to be locked into charisma? I know it's easy enough to change with dips or the one trait from geomancer's, but I would rather see it open to natively support more concepts.

I think that since Charisma is kind of the mental stat of the vigilante, it makes sense for the sub- categories and archetypes of vigilante to also follow that pattern, unless breaking away from it is a specific choice of the archetype or option.



Bestial form talent - limiting it to talents with bestial or animalistic is pretty narrow. I have it on good authority that some relevant talents in the alteration expansion don't have either in their names.:smalltongue:

The Mutations aren't really meant to give true spherecasting, just specific thematic pathways to power. Since there aren't unifying keywords to the necessary powers, I had to pick some unifying element to hang the mechanics on. Maybe someone working on the Alteration Handbook can provide a better suggestion?



Deathly bonds: duration? The swift works for one attack, one round, indefinitely?

I'll update and clarify.


Full SP costs apply to any talent applied to a mutation (force breath with fire breath for example)? I presume so, might not hurt to call it out in the general text.

Yes, will make that clearer.



Light daggers and anything else calling out charisma - change to casting ability modifier to allow them to work when multiclassing, please. Future proofs it even if you don't agree with my suggestion of opening up the casting stat.

Can do!



How does speedster interact with the improved haste talent? If you are burning a swift action every round you should get the full benefit of haste. Maybe give it a duration so you aren't losing your swifts forever? Even if it's just a spellpoint option.

Noted, and will update accordingly.

[EldritchWeaver]

The Mutations aren't really meant to give true spherecasting, just specific thematic pathways to power. Since there aren't unifying keywords to the necessary powers, I had to pick some unifying element to hang the mechanics on. Maybe someone working on the Alteration Handbook can provide a better suggestion?

Not working on it, but why simply state that the powers need to be animal-related like the Bestial and Animalistic line?

[stack]

Does it need to be limited beyond not costing an additional spell point? Wolverine may be what people think when they read it, by why not allow spinnerets and wings?

[khadgar567]

Does it need to be limited beyond not costing an additional spell point? Wolverine may be what people think when they read it, by why not allow spinnerets and wings?
plus damage is bit low for claws

[stack]

A note saying 'or other traits as deemed appropriate by the GM' would suggest that it can be opened up more also.

[Ssalarn]

A note saying 'or other traits as deemed appropriate by the GM' would suggest that it can be opened up more also.

I have added this line to the talent.

[Ssalarn]

Getting ready to wrap up the Luchador for layout! For reference the Luchador (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-EMwp8kXtTIxLuC2c19u0eLiPp8yL8o0FDkEnqxuelg/edit?usp=sharing) currently contains:


The Luchador Hybrid class
Three Stable choices for the Luchador: Freestyle, Oil Wrestling, and Sumo
5 new social talents
25 Stable talents
The Blood Breaker, a mutagen using luchador archetype
The Dancing Dervish, a dancing Luchador archetype
The Earthbound, a stoic defender Luchador archetype
The Ki Striker- For when you want a martial artist who can blast people with ki waves
The Lichador- For wrestlers from the Other Side
The Masked Beast- Because sometimes, you just need a wrestler who's also a tiger
The Masked Saint- For Luchadors who also want to keep the party hale and whole
The Rudo- because it's not wrestling without a Heel
A section providing details on how all the Core and Skybourne races might become luchadors, with FCBs for each.
11 new masked, wrestling, and martial arts themed feats
5 new mundane items every wrestler needs
7 new wondrous items, including masks, boots, and more!


We were also looking at adding in a Luchador themed initiating discipline, but the word count required to include all the base initiating rules so this could be a stand-alone supplement ended up meaning we'd have to dedicate nearly a third of the book to just the discipline and an initiating archetype, so at this time it looks like that's off the table, though if the Luchador does well, I'm hoping we get to revisit that particular idea. That will also give Dreamscarred time to wrap up Fool's Errand and their Vigilante archetype(s), so we can make sure that we're complimenting and supporting each other, rather than competing.

This will be the last day of the Luchador playtest, so if there's anything I haven't gone over that you'd like to see, any issues you've found with existing mechanics, or anything else, let me know! If you've left comments directly on the playtest doc, I'll be addressing those over the next couple hours.

[stack]

That seems quick for an entire base class.

[Ssalarn]

That seems quick for an entire base class.

I've been putting in a lot of extra time on the class over the past month, and while we've had a relatively small number of playtesters, most of them have been very responsive and helpful, so I'm feeling pretty good about where the luchador is at right now. We'll be continuing the Vigilantes playtest after this and running that for a couple more weeks most likely, so I think everything is moving at about the anticipated pace.

[stack]

I've been putting in a lot of extra time on the class over the past month, and while we've had a relatively small number of playtesters, most of them have been very responsive and helpful, so I'm feeling pretty good about where the luchador is at right now. We'll be continuing the Vigilantes playtest after this and running that for a couple more weeks most likely, so I think everything is moving at about the anticipated pace.

Ah, well if there was significant playtesting other than here thats different. It just hasn't been up here a long time. Things looked solid overall, but I've been sadly shirt in time as far as going back over it.

Edit - thinking back I recall the other playtesting being mentioned previously. Sorry.

[digiman619]

Slight problem with the Caped Dynamo talent- as written, the panache won't work, as his unarmed strike isn't a one-handed piercing or slashing weapon.

[Ssalarn]

Slight problem with the Caped Dynamo talent- as written, the panache won't work, as his unarmed strike isn't a one-handed piercing or slashing weapon.

Thanks for the catch! There had been a sentence that addressed that, but apparently I accidentally cropped it at some point without noticing.

[stack]

Prophesied - cool idea, seems painful to play at low levels though. Maybe a way to spend luck to change identities in combat? The utility aspects of grabbing casting are significantly reduced until you can change freely.

How do they keep their identity secret when they only and always transform during combat? If you use your 5th level ability to transform out of combat, do you instantly revert to social if there are no enemies present?

At 10th level, isn't it a strait upgrade over avenger? I am no vigilante expert so I might have missed something.

Hulking form mutation - I presume the small to medium and medium to large are explanatory rather than exclusive? I would hate for a gamla vigilante (how a gamla wandered into Skybourne I don't know) not be able to benefit.

Mutations generally still use charisma in place of casting modifier.

Invulnerable - why limit it to having hulking or bestial? The stereotypical flying brick hero would use neither but still needs DR.

Pernicious projectiles - nice with a belt of mighty hurling. Str sad throwing once you can afford it.

There is only the night - cool, but feels more like a social talent to me.

[EldritchWeaver]

Hulking form mutation - I presume the small to medium and medium to large are explanatory rather than exclusive? I would hate for a gamla vigilante (how a gamla wandered into Skybourne I don't know) not be able to benefit.

What is a gamla?

[Ssalarn]

What is a gamla?

Large-sized camelfolk (https://www.facebook.com/dreamscarredpress/photos/a.264275308354.145191.264262683354/10153917680103355/?type=3&theater) from DSP's Akashic Mysteries.

Also, the Luchador is now available for purchase at DrivethruRPG!

[EldritchWeaver]

There is only the night - cool, but feels more like a social talent to me.

I didn't notice at first, but its counterpart Sever Ties is a social talent.

[khadgar567]

is there a update we don't know yet

[Ssalarn]

is there a update we don't know yet

Don't think so. I've been wrapping the Luchador handbook that went up for sale yesterday, and took two days off to hang out with my wife and remember that I have a family :smallsmile:

Going over feedback and making updates today.

[Ssalarn]

Vigilantes of Skybourne is now available for purchase at Paizo and on DriveThruRPG, and it is one sexy book! Great art, clean composition, and tons of new vigilante options including 20 archetypes, 2 new PrCs, a new Specialization, tons of new talents, and more!