Sci-Fi gaming in 5E

[RobD]

I've seen this type of thread pop up from time to time, and it's caught my interest.
Unfortunately, they all seem to end in people saying that there's no point because other games are better suited to it, and nothing ever gets produced.
Considering how much stuff I cribbed (and outright stole) from those other games, they're probably right. Certainly would have saved me time and effort, but heck, I like 5E and have a hard enough time getting my players to play scifi without teaching them a new system.
Anyway, good idea or not, I got kinda obsessed with it and started cobbling together some rules I would use to run a scifi game.
Most of the character options can be accomplished by renaming things, with a little adjustment.
The bulk of the work deals with space travel and ships. Took and adapted most of that from Traveller and Stars Without Number; also brought in a little Star Wars and d20 future (that last one in particular for the vehicle stats).
Anyway, since I can't get any feedback from my players, I figure some of the folks on here would like to see what I've come up with. It's not organized terribly well yet; I'm kinda at the point where I'm sure I'm missing some holes but can't see them because I've been looking at it too long. Could use some fresh eyes. Here's a link to a pdf:
http://www.filedropper.com/5escifi

Couple known issues:
-The equipment list is hardly exhaustive, and prices are kinda all over the place. They're mostly thrown out there just to have a number.
-My big fear is that I'm way overcomplicating things. I've basically been throwing whatever I liked at the wall and am in the process of seeing what sticks. Probably should do some paring down.

[Regitnui]

You're not going to get a solid sci-fi RPG out of D&D. It's too steeped in Tolkien. However, you will get great Space Fantasy out of it. Star Wars, not Star Trek. You can go a bit further along the spectrum than spelljammer's D&D in space. Bladesinger Jedi, anyone?

[Anonymouswizard]

There's no point because other games are better suited to it, nothing's going to come out of this.

Okay, a bit more constructive. D&D can give you something resembling Star Wars (both the original trilogy and the prequels). 5e is a bit too magic heavy for that, but Paladins or Bards can be converted to Jedi (depending on how much force usage you want), and Fighters and Rogues make up the rest of the cast.

However, D&D cannot do something where technology is more important, or without some sort of space-magic. So it can't really do Star Trek, straight cyberpunk, Assimov-style robot stories, Eclipse Phase style transhumanism, and so on. So you can get a darn good science fantasy game out of D&D (the word 'Spelljammer' springs to mind), but you won't really do science fiction (this is why my Steampunk setting used Fate).

[Cybren]

If you really had the time, you could probably use the 5E chassis to make a pretty good sci-fi RPG. Determine the kind of base characters you want, and how you might want to sort them into archetypes, and then mine the PHB for abilities you can adapt. You can use a lot of the same skills, adding things like "Physics" and "Biology" and "Psionics" and "Astronomy" to replace Arcana/animal handling/nature/what have you. Backgrounds can probably be switched over mostly intact, with the less appropriate skill & tool proficiencies switched out for more appropriate ones.

[Theodoxus]

Why this attitude that it can't be done?

The game is just a game, every 'spell' is compatible with a science fiction trope. Just figure out what the premise of the game will be and go from there.

And Star Trek is fantasy; sorry, beaming to planets and time travel is pure fantasy.

[Cybren]

I'd say at it's best Star Trek is dialog heavy contemplative character dramas and not really ideal for d&d, but a lot of its premises and conceits are fairly fantastic. I'm partial to Mark Rosewaters take that fantasy tends to be morality stories and sci fi tends to be "what if" stories, but only as a general and not absolute rule.

D&d would be fine for a mass effect or Star Wars style game, I imagine. You could probably do mass effect pretty directly. I mean, vanguards have a teleport, soldiers have action surge, and the various biotic abilities are various spells.

[Mjolnirbear]

Why this attitude that it can't be done?

The game is just a game, every 'spell' is compatible with a science fiction trope. Just figure out what the premise of the game will be and go from there.

And Star Trek is fantasy; sorry, beaming to planets and time travel is pure fantasy.
You're not using word fantasy in the right way.

Star Wars is fantasy because of the mystical force of the universe, the use of destiny, fate and similar elements.

Star Trek is not, because aside from Q, everything can be explained by science *today*. Transporters are not imaginary, they are real, and the concept has been proven. We just can't actually do it. Time Travel is similarly possible theoretically. We can't do it, and don't know how we would, but our understanding of space and time says that just because time flows in one direction for us doesn't mean it's a universal constant.

This is why star wars is space fantasy - - it's a fantasy story heavily disguised with science; and star trek is science fiction, a fiction story based entirely in known science (and extrapolations thereof)

[Anonymouswizard]

Why this attitude that it can't be done?

The attitude is more 'it's just too much work, you should use Traveller/Star Wars/insert other sci-fi game here's.


The game is just a game, every 'spell' is compatible with a science fiction trope. Just figure out what the premise of the game will be and go from there.

The problem is that the game is bad for most subgenres of sci-fi. How does D&D do cyberpunk? It's already bad at lots of fantasy.


And Star Trek is fantasy; sorry, beaming to planets and time travel is pure fantasy.

Eh, we can get close enough with real world theoretical technology.

[Regitnui]

Science (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_fantasy) Fantasy* (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScienceFantasy) is a distinct genre, best explained by people other than me (*WARNING: TvTropes Link). The important part is that, like Mjolnirbear said, that SciFi strictly limits itself to theoretically possible technologies from the time it's published; today, if an FTL drive is identifiable as or called an Alcubierre drive (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive), you're looking at SciFi. If it's just a 'hyperdrive' or a fantastical method like an Infinite Improbability Drive, we're talking Science Fantasy.

SciFi crushes the aesthetic of D&D in it's metalloid gearing, as a lot of D&D is based around the fantastical, as distinct from fantasy; e.g Eberron's airships are pretty clearly explained, but work on different physics and magic. A sci-fi adaption of 5e would have to lose a lot of core content. However, a science fantasy version of 5e can leap gleefully from planet to planet, even if it does have to find a few excuses to have Vulcans instead of elves and Kilngons instead of orcs.

(NOTE: Star Trek is still sci-fi. Their aliens just fit into fantasy race tropes. Star Wars is much more creative, and human-centric.)


D&d would be fine for a mass effect or Star Wars style game, I imagine. You could probably do mass effect pretty directly. I mean, vanguards have a teleport, soldiers have action surge, and the various biotic abilities are various spells.

Huh. I didn't think of Mass Effect, mostly because I hadn't played it. Maybe I should find a compilation.

[RobD]

You're not going to get a solid sci-fi RPG out of D&D. It's too steeped in Tolkien. However, you will get great Space Fantasy out of it. Star Wars, not Star Trek. You can go a bit further along the spectrum than spelljammer's D&D in space. Bladesinger Jedi, anyone?


There's no point because other games are better suited to it, nothing's going to come out of this.


See, this always bothers me. Everybody gets so caught up in either dismissing the idea entirely or quibbling about science fiction vs. science fantasy that the actual purpose of the thread (let's do some sic-fi styled D&D) gets left out entirely. I'm not making that distinction; I'm calling it Sci-Fi because that's the most useful broadly applied term to a genre involving spaceships, advanced technology, distant planets, and aliens.


If you really had the time, you could probably use the 5E chassis to make a pretty good sci-fi RPG. Determine the kind of base characters you want, and how you might want to sort them into archetypes, and then mine the PHB for abilities you can adapt. You can use a lot of the same skills, adding things like "Physics" and "Biology" and "Psionics" and "Astronomy" to replace Arcana/animal handling/nature/what have you. Backgrounds can probably be switched over mostly intact, with the less appropriate skill & tool proficiencies switched out for more appropriate ones.

That's…exactly what I'm doing, actually. I posted the pdf hoping people could look at what I've done and make further suggestions. I'm just also adding in systems and ideas from other games and adapting them to use within 5e to help flesh out the setting(such as ships and space travel).

I was really hoping someone would look over what I put together to help me determine if I've left out anything important, point out areas that could use some improvement, or make some suggestions on what to add/take out.

[Cybren]

Ah, having initially viewed the thread on my phone I hadn't noticed the link. First thought: is the sector creation lifted from Stars Without Number?

[RobD]

The problem is that the game is bad for most subgenres of sci-fi. How does D&D do cyberpunk? It's already bad at lots of fantasy.


It all depends on the DM. I think I would limit the classes to mostly fighters and rogues, and maybe the mystic or a modified sorcerer to play the role of psychics (if you're version of cyberpunk includes them); I might further restrict subclasses to avoid the arcane trickster or eldritch knight, though both of those can also be refluffed as some flavor of psion as well. Feats would require some pruning, and I would probably replace armor/weapon proficiencies with something more like the ones presented in the "Modern" article of Unearthed Arcana.

After that, the big components are Cybernetics, Computers, and the Setting.
-Cybernetics would have to cover replacement limbs, grafts, specialized equipment, weapons, etc. I would probably mine a few places for ideas (D20 modern/futre/apocalypse all had some interesting stuff that could be ported over), with home-brew to cover any holes. I believe Traveller had a short section on cybernetic equipment that would be worth a read (though I found it a bit too short to be everything you'd need for a cyberpunk game). If you're inclined, you could do what the DMG suggests and add a new stat for "Humanity" or something, and have it decrease every time you upgrade yourself.
-Computers would be fairly straightforward, at first. A Computers proficiency would be in order, either supplementing the list or replacing an existing proficiency (like arcana). Hacking can relegated to Thieve's tools (just call them 'electronic' thieves tools, or something), or it can be a skill check related to the proficiency. Creating fake IDs and authorizations can be handled by a forgery kit.
If your flavor of Cyberpunk involves virtual reality, it's a matter of having a secondary character that acts as an "Avatar" in an in-game 'imaginary' space. Game within a game, dream in a dream. Hell, the Avatar could even have all the same stats as the normal character. It's practically just a change of scenery predicated by putting on a special hat with some wires and a pair of goggles. And if you don't want to do that, then absolve actions in virtual space through skill/ability checks.
-Setting: Setting is the most important part of a cyberpunk game, and it has just about nothing to do with the mechanics. It's all about window dressing, because that's probably 80% of the world your PC will interact with. Megacorporations. Oppressive, crowded cities. Delivery drones buzzing around the city. Rival gangs roaming the poor sections. Highly restricted goods and services combined with slick tech. Licenses required for everything. Kids roaming around with AR goggles seeing things that everybody not using their signal can't see. Cameras everywhere.

90 percent of what makes a genre game feel like its genre is going to come down to the descriptions and details provided by the DM.

Basically, in my mind, mechanics and rules and crunch are there to support the setting. Well designed rules can help drive home the feel of an idea, theme, or concept, make it more visceral to the player; but at the end of the day, it's the DM and how he/she presents the world that will ultimately make the difference between settings.

[RobD]

Ah, having initially viewed the thread on my phone I hadn't noticed the link. First thought: is the sector creation lifted from Stars Without Number?

Absolutely. In fact, I lifted a bunch of stuff from SWN and Traveller (and a few other rpgs like Star Wars and d6Space) with the intent of adapting to 5e. Let's call it 'repurposing" (sounds so much nicer than "scavenging").

I suppose the response to that should be "if you were gonna do that, why not just play Traveller or Stars Without Number?"
Biggest reason was because I like 5e better. There are elements of each of the games I looked at that I really liked, and I wanted to see if I could combine them all onto one chassis without completely overloading it.

[mgshamster]

You may be interested in Goober's take on it as well: D&D (5e)... In Spaaaaace! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?473012-D-amp-D-(5e)-In-Spaaaaace!)

[Notafish]

I think RobD's elimination of most (all?) magic classes is a great idea for a sci-fi/fantasy setting. The spell list, I think, is probably the biggest part of D&D that would overwhelm sci-fi flavor. Second-biggest I think, is the need for a large ship-to- large ship combat system (I like the crew station example here, too)

Something I didn't see in the guide was a way to deal with items much beyond what is mentioned in the PHB. The tricky thing here is that a lot of the effects of spells could reasonably be fluffed as "experimental tech" (magic items) and the DMG doesn't give great advice on how to avoid unbalanced loadouts in an item-heavy setting beyond requiring attunement. Assigning some kind of power tracking system like spell slots or ki points (battery load?) to items with effects indistinguishable from magic might help.

[RobD]

I think RobD's elimination of most (all?) magic classes is a great idea for a sci-fi/fantasy setting. The spell list, I think, is probably the biggest part of D&D that would overwhelm sci-fi flavor. Second-biggest I think, is the need for a large ship-to- large ship combat system (I like the crew station example here, too)

Something I didn't see in the guide was a way to deal with items much beyond what is mentioned in the PHB. The tricky thing here is that a lot of the effects of spells could reasonably be fluffed as "experimental tech" (magic items) and the DMG doesn't give great advice on how to avoid unbalanced loadouts in an item-heavy setting beyond requiring attunement. Assigning some kind of power tracking system like spell slots or ki points (battery load?) to items with effects indistinguishable from magic might help.

I actually haven't even started looking at magic items from the DMG. If I were to include them at all, it would almost certainly be a cherry-picked list of the ones that 'feel' the most like tech. Driftglobes, for example, would fit right into a scifi game. I even like the name.
In fantasy D&D,I think the biggest barrier to magic items acquisition is (or is designed to be) scarcity. That's why they're divided into rarity, right? There's potentially only a few of any individual item floating around out there, and they're generally not for sale.
In scifi, I think the bigger barrier should be cost. The better or more powerful the item, the more resources it will take to acquire or maintain. Like the jetpack: in regular D&D, you could use the flying carpet. A mystical item that's very rare, but once you have it (possibly even for no more than the cost of running through a dungeon), it's 80/60/whatever feet of flying forever.
The jetpack, in contrast, is a well-known piece of tech; it just costs a nice chunk of change, and requires regular resources to keep it effective (an energy cell for every hour of flight).
It's part of the reason I keep looking at the prices I threw down on everything; I feel like I should be making everything more expensive, or at least establish a better baseline of just how much wealth a character should be expected to have.

[RobD]

You may be interested in Goober's take on it as well: D&D (5e)... In Spaaaaace! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?473012-D-amp-D-(5e)-In-Spaaaaace!)

Looks pretty good. Seems like we hit on a couple of the same ideas (I think I like the term "console" better than "station", in terms of ships positions). Not sure I like the multi-tiered starship scale, though. And I'd have liked to see how they generated ship stats (AC, HP, Speed, etc).

[Grod_The_Giant]

5e's structure would work fine, but... "sci-fi" is as broad a category as "fantasy." D&D doesn't even do all fantasy; it does, well, D&D-type fantasy. So the first step is to decide what kind of sci-fi you want-- from there, you can fit the magic into it. The Modern Magic Unearthed Arcana would be essential for any of these, though.


A Star Wars/Mass Effect/whatever type game, where's some sort of supernatural mumbo-jumbo would be easiest to do, obviously. There's not much on the spell lists that can't easily be refluffed as "psionics," apart from maybe transformation and summoning magic. You could probably pull energy damage off the lists too, and not suffer too much. Prepared casters use charms or careful mental disciplines or neural augmenters or something to focus their powers, while spontaneous casters just know the things they know.

A silly-high-tech game would require somewhat more work, but shouldn't be too far beyond the realm of houserules. You can refluff a lot of magic as being either handheld gadgets (for prepared casters) or cybernetic implants (for spontaneous casters), but I think that it's at about this point that you'll start seeing cracks. You'll either need to carefully write the fluff to explain why tech gadgets can't be handed around the party, or you'll need some rules work to allow that. If that's the case, I'd... hmm. I think I'd take a page from the Artificer. Something like:

Preparing Gadgets: Preparing a gadget takes one minute. Pick a spell that you know and expend a spell slot of that spell's level or higher. You don't produce the effects of the spell now. Instead, you create a Gadget, which functions as a Spell Scroll except that the save DC and attack bonus are based off your own Proficiency Bonus and Ability Modifiers. The spell slot remains expended until the gadget is used and you take a long rest.
A more "serious" sci-fi game would... well, you could use the chassis, but you'd have to rewrite magic from scratch, I think. The 5e psionics would work quite well for cybernetic implants, I think-- you have a limited amount of energy to direct to a limited number of implants, each with several related functions. You'd just... need to create a bunch more, increase the progression all the way up to 20th level, and then figure out how to do 4th/5th level casting for everyone else. Totem Barbarian is another potential source of inspiration, but I think overall a much less interesting one.

A really hard sci-fi world, with no magic at all... I guess you could go with just the non-magical (sub)classes, but that seems like you're limiting things a lot and you're getting so far away from what D&D is good at (characters with big lists of magical options) that you really might as well look for a different system.

The final option, of course, is the use the 5e core rules and invent a set of scifi races and classes wholesale. Which would be the hardest, but most elegant.

[Beleriphon]

The final option, of course, is the use the 5e core rules and invent a set of scifi races and classes wholesale. Which would be the hardest, but most elegant.
[/LIST]

http://tr0l0l.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/kanye-1.jpg

I have to say this is the best 5th Edition scifi conversion ever!

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?459300-Fifth-Age-A-hard-science-fiction-5e-conversion

[Regitnui]

I've not had time to look at and critique your work, which is why my posts so far have been on "how far can we push the rules as-is". I'll let you know what I think once I've read through it.

[RobD]

http://tr0l0l.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/kanye-1.jpg

I have to say this is the best 5th Edition scifi conversion ever!

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?459300-Fifth-Age-A-hard-science-fiction-5e-conversion

Sweet holy moses, that's pretty solid.
Really great on the character front. Very thorough.
Saw that the starship rules got cut, and I can see why; it's a little convoluted. I like mine a bit better, they're a tad simpler; not as much as I'd like, but I'm not sure how I can streamline them further.
One thing I have discovered is one of those 'holes' I mentioned (that its, Stuff I Forgot). Decided to write up a ship and in the process realized I never included the tactical speeds of the various Impulse Engines (that is, how many hexes they move on a combat grid, where each hex is 500 feet). I settled on something pretty simple: Just multiply the impulse engine rating by two, then bam, there's your hex movement.
So, class 1=2 hexes, Class 2=4, etc. Simple, neat, works out pretty much like character movement.
Also realized I should include a ship modification for hidden compartments.

Creating a ship didn't take that long, either. Choose the size, figure out how many people are going to live on it (and subtract the necessary tonnage), then pick the engines/sensor/comm rating, weapons, and one or two ship fittings and you're good to go. I spent more time trying to decide a name (it ended up being the Winchester).
If I were letting the PCs design the ship, all I'd have to do is give them a money/value limit (though I think I prefer the idea of just giving them a light or medium chassis with average engines/sensors/comms and telling them them to just pick their weapons and two upgrades for funsies.

On a related note, I'm wondering if ships should even come with weapon slots, or if they should just be an upgrade like the rest, with a tonnage cost?
I might up the tonnage of each class a little if I do.

[Beleriphon]

On a related note, I'm wondering if ships should even come with weapon slots, or if they should just be an upgrade like the rest, with a tonnage cost?
I might up the tonnage of each class a little if I do.

Depends. If you allow weapon to tonnage conversions expect players to drop tonnage as low as possible and put as many guns on their spaceships as possible. While if you restrict to a certain number of hard points and some kind of other limit, fire arcs maybe, then it gives you more control over what you can stick on a ship.

I'm personally fond of Star Wars Saga Editions process where ships have a certain number of points to use that can be traded off and around for different kinds of things like cargo space, or bigger guns. It isn't what I would call simple, but it sure is fun.

[MaxWilson]

I've seen this type of thread pop up from time to time, and it's caught my interest.
Unfortunately, they all seem to end in people saying that there's no point because other games are better suited to it, and nothing ever gets produced.
Considering how much stuff I cribbed (and outright stole) from those other games, they're probably right. Certainly would have saved me time and effort, but heck, I like 5E and have a hard enough time getting my players to play scifi without teaching them a new system.
Anyway, good idea or not, I got kinda obsessed with it and started cobbling together some rules I would use to run a scifi game.
Most of the character options can be accomplished by renaming things, with a little adjustment.
The bulk of the work deals with space travel and ships. Took and adapted most of that from Traveller and Stars Without Number; also brought in a little Star Wars and d20 future (that last one in particular for the vehicle stats).
Anyway, since I can't get any feedback from my players, I figure some of the folks on here would like to see what I've come up with. It's not organized terribly well yet; I'm kinda at the point where I'm sure I'm missing some holes but can't see them because I've been looking at it too long. Could use some fresh eyes. Here's a link to a pdf:
http://www.filedropper.com/5escifi

Couple known issues:
-The equipment list is hardly exhaustive, and prices are kinda all over the place. They're mostly thrown out there just to have a number.
-My big fear is that I'm way overcomplicating things. I've basically been throwing whatever I liked at the wall and am in the process of seeing what sticks. Probably should do some paring down.

You might find the Space Marine for 5E interesting: http://hackslashmaster.blogspot.com/2015/08/on-5e-modern-fighter-subclass-space.html

[EggKookoo]

I'm working on a space opera game that began life as an SF reskin of 5e. It evolved into it's own system but it does show some D&D roots. I've been thinking about posting my combat mechanics rules in the Homebrew section for some playtesting.

[NightScar]

There's a third party source book out there called Amethyst quintessence that deals with a magic versus science type setting. It has some new rules for firearms, mechs (i think) and technology focused base classes. There's a long youtube video that the publisher put out where they give an overview of the whole book. Might be something to look into to compare ideas.

[Anonymouswizard]

http://tr0l0l.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/kanye-1.jpg

I have to say this is the best 5th Edition scifi conversion ever!

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?459300-Fifth-Age-A-hard-science-fiction-5e-conversion

Interesting. I'd never use it because I'm writing my own Space Opera game (it doesn't include rules for playing AI, but that's because they don't exist in the 'standard' universe and would require a lot more rules, primarily to do with body hopping), but it does work. However, it is essentially a new game built on the 5e engine, rather than tweaking 5e to be sci-fi.

[Beleriphon]

Interesting. I'd never use it because I'm writing my own Space Opera game (it doesn't include rules for playing AI, but that's because they don't exist in the 'standard' universe and would require a lot more rules, primarily to do with body hopping), but it does work. However, it is essentially a new game built on the 5e engine, rather than tweaking 5e to be sci-fi.

Which I like personally, but I know its not for everybody. I'm fond of some of the funny in jokes or weird stuff that it includes. Like the Jimmys.

[Anonymouswizard]

Which I like personally, but I know its not for everybody. I'm fond of some of the funny in jokes or weird stuff that it includes. Like the Jimmys.

I was annoyed the Jimmy-Bobbie wasn't a policeman. But yeah, as I said it looks interesting, it's just nothing I'd ever RUN (I'd be willing to play it though), and it looks like a bit more of a light hearted thing than what I like (which is the reason for the difference in the available 'races' between this game and mine, I've decided that if I can just get humans worked out then I can essentially write a supplement for aliens and AI with a bunch of dials to allow players to have the type you want). For example, I'm not 100% happy with how the robots work, because to me AI is software and there should be the ability to either easily switch bodies or control several at once (although I can understand why issues like forking have been left out).

So do I dislike any part of the game? No, I actually like quite a bit of it. It's written in a style I like and has a lot of customisation in what it gives. However, for me it essentially proves my point that you can't do sci-fi in 5e without a lot of change (at the very least throwing out all the classes and reworking the backgrounds).

[RobD]

Depends. If you allow weapon to tonnage conversions expect players to drop tonnage as low as possible and put as many guns on their spaceships as possible.

That's what worries me the most about it, because I'm pretty certain that at least one or two of my players would want to do just that. With most groups, I'd say that whatever presiding government setting laws for the sector has outlawed ships from being armed without special authorization (say, for military or licensed escorts), but the Law has never intimidated any of my players in the slightest, so I doubt that would work for me personally.

Still, I do really like the idea of modular ship design, and it makes sense to me that weapons should (or, at least, could) be an add-on.

[Regitnui]

Still, I do really like the idea of modular ship design, and it makes sense to me that weapons should (or, at least, could) be an add-on.

It might be worth a look at the Serenity RPG's shipbuilding mechanic. They do the tradeoff thing, but with tonnage, weaponry, armour, crew quarters and engine size.

[RobD]

It might be worth a look at the Serenity RPG's shipbuilding mechanic. They do the tradeoff thing, but with tonnage, weaponry, armour, crew quarters and engine size.

Took a quick read-through it last night. Seemed interesting; I liked that there was a method for determining a ships tonnage based on its dimensions (though I'm not sure how they arrived at the number they gave for their sample ship; I know it was based on the ship's strength score, but at that level it ranged from 1,000-10,000 tons, and they settled on 2400. Not sure why).
Considering the idea of replacing the current tonnage on the ship class table with a number based on that formula (using the average dimensions for each size). If i'm doing it right (I can't guarantee that, math's not my strongest suit), then the tonnage ticks up considerably once you hit the "light" class.
Like, 75 thousand tons.
Maybe I should just say that the engines/hull/other vital, non-optional features of a ship take up a certain percentage of that?
Let's see if I can work this out.
A light starship has a length between 50 and 500 feet. Average would be somewhere in the middle, right? So let's say 275, smack dab. We'll assume the average width of a ship is half it's length, and the average height to be half its width.
So, by the formula (and rounding up to whole numbers), 275 x 138 x 69= 2618550*
Divide by 100=26185.5
According to Serenity's method, if it were a bulky ship, I'd further divide by 2; if sleek, then by 6. I'm going for the middle, so I'll divide by 4.
Total:6,546
Seems like a lot.
(*edited to fix a math error)

I don't know, what do you guys think? I hate to just arbitrarily assign numbers based off of 'gut' feelings (which is pretty much what I did in the original document linked above), but I'd like players to think and choose how they're building their ship.
Maybe I should just go MORE abstract, and just say each class of ship has 'space' for a certain number of upgrades; for example a light ship can have three upgrades (or a d4, or something), while a heavy one can fit seven (or a d8).

[Cybren]

You might want to check out GURPS Spaceships, if you want to look at a modular way of building space ships that's logically consistent and based in real world figures for things like cargo storage. Of course, it's GURPS, so it's not the lightest and quickest to use system

[RobD]

You might want to check out GURPS Spaceships, if you want to look at a modular way of building space ships that's logically consistent and based in real world figures for things like cargo storage. Of course, it's GURPS, so it's not the lightest and quickest to use system

That's the problem, in a nutshell: as a DM, I like the ease, speed, and simplicity that 5e brings to the table, but I don't like the vagueness of some of its rules. I like the consistency and realism of things like GURPS and 3.5/modern, but don't like all the book-keeping.

It's been difficult to achieve a middle ground.

[Regitnui]

I don't get why people want to undo the simplification that was brought to 5e. I can get why people would play more complex games, but adding complexity into a deliberately simple game is pointless when it's entirely possible and much easier to go play a complex game.

Back on topic, you want the 'middle ground' to be both intuitive and grokkable. My advice would be to start with your 'basic ships'; cargo hauler, planet hopper, passenger liner, military warship and science vessel; then lay out how to customize those, much like 5e's classes. They say "if you want a sorcerer, do this." You say, "if you want a passenger liner, do this".

[Knaight]

Back on topic, you want the 'middle ground' to be both intuitive and grokkable. My advice would be to start with your 'basic ships'; cargo hauler, planet hopper, passenger liner, military warship and science vessel; then lay out how to customize those, much like 5e's classes. They say "if you want a sorcerer, do this." You say, "if you want a passenger liner, do this".

Ship level could then correlate roughly to size differences - I'd even go so far as to recommend making literal classes for the ships, or at least implementing hit dice, proficiency, etc.

[Regitnui]

Ship level could then correlate roughly to size differences - I'd even go so far as to recommend making literal classes for the ships, or at least implementing hit dice, proficiency, etc.

The five I suggested could easily be made ship classes.

[Anonymouswizard]

I don't get why people want to undo the simplification that was brought to 5e. I can get why people would play more complex games, but adding complexity into a deliberately simple game is pointless when it's entirely possible and much easier to go play a complex game.

Yeah, I mean I know I don't like to run a game that's too simple. So I don't run 5e.

Although I also think some of it is due to some people wanting to put thing X back into the game without realising how thing X complicates things. 5e is also the second most complex edition from a character building standpoint, it's just so streamlined that it doesn't detract from how missing all the other rules are.


Back on topic, you want the 'middle ground' to be both intuitive and grokkable. My advice would be to start with your 'basic ships'; cargo hauler, planet hopper, passenger liner, military warship and science vessel; then lay out how to customize those, much like 5e's classes. They say "if you want a sorcerer, do this." You say, "if you want a passenger liner, do this".

I'd actually suggest going for a race/class system: 'types' (shuttle, frigate, cruiser, dreadnaught, plus minus whatever you want), and roles (e.g. cargo hauler, passenger vessel, warship, science vessel). The let people combine them to make ship types (warship+shuttle=fighter, passenger+dreadnaught=anarchist collective, etc). Heck, throw in Space Stations as an additional 'type' and run them with the same rules (one of their traits can be limited thrusters). Then just let players buy systems to add to the basic set given by their role, up to the limit imposed by their type (to keep it simple don't worry about space and power, assume all systems take the same amount). This allows a ship to either specialise in it's area (a warship with a lot of guns) or branch out into areas covered by other roles (using enhanced sensors to act as a scout).

Yes, this is the system I'm planning to use. It's simple but still allows for quite a bit of customisation, and you can still provide 'basic ships' that are just a mix of type and role.

[Cybren]

That's the problem, in a nutshell: as a DM, I like the ease, speed, and simplicity that 5e brings to the table, but I don't like the vagueness of some of its rules. I like the consistency and realism of things like GURPS and 3.5/modern, but don't like all the book-keeping.

It's been difficult to achieve a middle ground.

Well, it doesn't have to be complex for your players. You're basically using GURPS spaceships in my suggestion to front load all the math on your end just to spit out working numbers for size/mass/cargo/crew stats, and then softening the edges and converting that to d&disms. You can use it to preseason the ships and then finish to taste

[Beleriphon]

I'm still going to throw SW Saga Edition out there as the base system, in no small part because its already a D20 system and has structures in place that should make sense or at least be convertible to D&D 5E parlance without too much trouble. The biggest benefit is that the rules are fast in play.

I'm incidentally working on a ship combat system for 5E that needs some pounding out. I think it would work okay for space combat since submarine combat and space combat aren't that different in reality beyond the ranges involved (heck, it even provides that missiles/torpedoes are the best weapons, and stealth is more important than big guns).

[Regitnui]

I'm incidentally working on a ship combat system for 5E that needs some pounding out. I think it would work okay for space combat since submarine combat and space combat aren't that different in reality beyond the ranges involved (heck, it even provides that missiles/torpedoes are the best weapons, and stealth is more important than big guns).

Link me to that ship combat, my friend. My current plan for shipboard encounters is "let them board, then fight." You understand, that's less than ideal when the players are on an airship.