Porting PF Gunslinger into 3.5

[Aetis]

Hello, playgrounders.

I am considering adding PF Gunslinger into my 3.5 world.

I've looked over the class and it looks approximately equal to the 3.5 Warlock class in strength, maybe a little bit weaker.

Anything particular I should watch out for?

[ngilop]

Ive played with a gunslinger once, and the only thing that I noticed, that was a bit extreme, was the damage output. I think we were 8th level ( maybe up to 10th) and he was doing 180 damage a round on average which was above the rest of the party's capability when no putting everything into one attack, like our barbarian could.


other than that its pretty decent actually. and if you play with high damages then it will not be that big a difference.

[Necroticplague]

Gunslinger's are a class with pretty much no utility of versatility (once you decide how you're going to shoot people). They do exactly one thing: Damage. They do it consistently. they do it well, they do nothing else.

[Aetis]

I think we were 8th level ( maybe up to 10th) and he was doing 180 damage a round on average

What was his build?

[Sayt]

Honestly, you do the skill last retroactions, and then you can just drop it straight in to 3.5.

On the subject of its damage output... It used to be absurd, but it's been dramatically toned down. Double barrel firearms are no longer busted-good. You are now limited to two full round attacks, down from 4.

If you don't backport deadly aim, their damage much less overwhelming.

The other thing to note is that the touch ac+dex2dmg on firearms is very short and only extends to first range increment, so there is also a lot of damage falloff. (Pistols, the highest poyential dpr firearm only has a 40ft range increment)

[Sayt]

What was his build?

You used to be able to fire two barrels of a double barrel weapon as an attack in a full round attack, which lead to people dual wielding double barrel pistols. This has been closed.

[Aetis]

I see. That makes sense.

I don't plan to backport Deadly Aim.

[Sayt]

I'd consider it, actually, conditionally on firearms not hitting touch within the first range increment. I also highly recommend backporting the cyclonic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/cyclonic) magic weapon ability.

[Geddy2112]

The main problem with their scary high damage output(even post double barrel nerf) is the ability to hit touch AC. At higher levels, you end up with giant monsters,dragons, and other large/huge/gargantuan creatures who have abyssmal touch AC and are basically auto hit for a gunslinger.

You can negate this by use of incorporeal monsters, monks, or any other being that has touch AC=AC. Another option is hordes and swarms-they can only shoot dead so many a round and doing insane amounts of damage to a kobold won't matter when there are 50 of them.

[Necroticplague]

I'd consider it, actually, conditionally on firearms not hitting touch within the first range increment. I also highly recommend backporting the cyclonic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/cyclonic) magic weapon ability.

If you take way penetration, firearms are pretty much worse than just normal archery. Shorter range, vastly more expensive (both to buy and get ammo for), slower to reload, are all exotic, need to keep dry, and with the ability to misfire. All you get in return is one dice size increase and a x4 multiplier.

[Aetis]

So, in 3.5, archery damage is very restricted due to there not being "Power Attack" equivalent.

I don't understand how post-nerf Gunslinger with no Deadly Aim can overcome that damage restriction.

[Sayt]

If you take way penetration, firearms are pretty much worse than just normal archery. Shorter range, vastly more expensive (both to buy and get ammo for), slower to reload, are all exotic, need to keep dry, and with the ability to misfire. All you get in return is one dice size increase and a x4 multiplier.

You're also getting Single ability dependence on your attack and damage rolls. Further, hitting touch was one of the huge enablers of the frankly kinda abusive damage volume you could put out, as you could Two Weapon Fight+Rapid Shot+Deadly Aim every round and basically not give a **** because you were targeting touch on a full-BAB class that only needed one.

Also, the Gunslinger gets around the cost-issue


So, in 3.5, archery damage is very restricted due to there not being "Power Attack" equivalent.

I don't understand how post-nerf Gunslinger with no Deadly Aim can overcome that damage restriction.
Sorry, might have been un-clear, I meant that I would consider backporting Deadly Aim IF you removed targeting touch AC, not and.

[Aetis]

Ah I see.

Would you recommend backporting the grit feats?

[Starbuck_II]

If you take way penetration, firearms are pretty much worse than just normal archery. Shorter range, vastly more expensive (both to buy and get ammo for), slower to reload, are all exotic, need to keep dry, and with the ability to misfire. All you get in return is one dice size increase and a x4 multiplier.

If you want penetration idea, but don't want full touch AC. May I present...

Guns: Penetration
Replace misfire and Touch AC mechanic;
Penetration bypasses the combination of armor, natural armor, and/or shields within 2nd increment (however, keep reading). One-handed firearms have a PR of 3, two handed firearms have a PR of 6, but this is ½ outside of 1st increment. Also PR automatically increases based on enhancementx2, so a character with a +5 musket bypasses 16 points of AC from armor, natural armor, and/or shields within 1st increment, but only 8 in 2nd increment.
Broken Condition: Penetration lowered by 4 (minimum 0).
Gunslinger:
Deadeye Deed: Same method by extends penetration
Quick Clear: If Firearm gains broken condition, can ignore for 1 minute.
Gun Training: Raises Penetration by 1 every 5 levels.

Alchemy cartridge: Lowers Penetration by 1 or more when used (use misfire value)
Dragon's breath: The nonmagical flame deals 2d6 + BAB points of fire damage to all targets within the cone of the scatter firearm (DC 15 Reflex save half). If you roll a 1 with either of the damage dice, the firearm gains broken condition or explodes if broken.

The idea is early gun ignore some but not all armor/shields. And to top it, I removed misfire mechanics.

[Sayt]

Ah I see.

Would you recommend backporting the grit feats?
I think some of them are fairly integral to the Gunslinger, Signature Deed especially, so I would, personally. That said I play 3.PF by default.



If you want penetration idea, but don't want full touch AC. May I present...

Guns: Penetration
Replace misfire and Touch AC mechanic;
Penetration bypasses the combination of armor, natural armor, and/or shields within 2nd increment (however, keep reading). One-handed firearms have a PR of 3, two handed firearms have a PR of 6, but this is ½ outside of 1st increment. Also PR automatically increases based on enhancementx2, so a character with a +5 musket bypasses 16 points of AC from armor, natural armor, and/or shields within 1st increment, but only 8 in 2nd increment.
Broken Condition: Penetration lowered by 4 (minimum 0).
Gunslinger:
Deadeye Deed: Same method by extends penetration
Quick Clear: If Firearm gains broken condition, can ignore for 1 minute.
Gun Training: Raises Penetration by 1 every 5 levels.

Alchemy cartridge: Lowers Penetration by 1 or more when used (use misfire value)
Dragon's breath: The nonmagical flame deals 2d6 + BAB points of fire damage to all targets within the cone of the scatter firearm (DC 15 Reflex save half). If you roll a 1 with either of the damage dice, the firearm gains broken condition or explodes if broken.

The idea is early gun ignore some but not all armor/shields. And to top it, I removed misfire mechanics.


This, this I like! Though I might tie it to damage die instead of handedness? A bit more fiddly, perhaps, but gives some nice scaling.

[ghanjrho]

I think some of them are fairly integral to the Gunslinger, Signature Deed especially, so I would, personally. That said I play 3.PF by default.





This, this I like! Though I might tie it to damage die instead of handedness? A bit more fiddly, perhaps, but gives some nice scaling.

Something like 1/2 die size, maybe? So a 1d8 pistol gains Pen 4, a 1d12 musket gains Pen 6, the 2d10 double hackbut is Pen 10, etc. Especially if all cartridges are decreasing penetration.

[Florian]

Hello, playgrounders.

I am considering adding PF Gunslinger into my 3.5 world.

I've looked over the class and it looks approximately equal to the 3.5 Warlock class in strength, maybe a little bit weaker.

Anything particular I should watch out for?

Don´t do it unless you´re prepared to either back-port all elements, including Deadly Aim and Clustered Shots or your results will be quite screwed. Most PF weapon-based classes work more on steadily piling up static to hit/damage values than increasing the number of dice you roll for that damage or going for that one powerful strike, as with most 3.5 Power Attack-based builds. Roughly speaking, a class like the Gunslinger should clock in at around 2*Class Level in raw bonus damage to work as expected.

[Aetis]

What do you mean working as expected? You mean like how gunslingers work in pathfinder?

This isn't pathfinder. 3.5 ranged weapon users have notoriously low damage scaling, and I'm fine with it.

edit: typo

[Gnaeus]

Well, if you are happy with it, that's the important thing. Just remember that as ranged damage touch attackers go, sorcerers>warmages>warlocks>gunslingers, and all those other classes have way more utility.

[icefractal]

This depends a lot on how optimized your group is. 3.5 has a higher ceiling than Pathfinder, so if your group is moderately optimized, then a Gunslinger with everything, let's even say they got modern/future firearms, is ... enough to keep up (in combat) - maybe.

If, on the other hand, people are playing archers that do 1d8+2 at 10th level, then a Gunslinger is going to shake things up bigtime.


Edit: To nitpick, 3.5 does have ranged power attack - it's called Power Throw, and the prerequisite, Brutal Throw, makes thrown attacks Strength-based. So a 3.5 character can already be SAD with ranged weapons.

Edit 2: One change I would make, either way, is raising the Gunslinger's skills to 6+Int. 3.5 has more skills than Pathfinder, so the same amount of points doesn't go as far, and non-magic classes need the most skill support anyway.

[Aetis]

sorcerers>warmages>warlocks>gunslingers

Yeah, little weaker than warlock class is where I'd gauge the gunslinger class, as far as I can tell from paper anyway.



This depends a lot on how optimized your group is. 3.5 has a higher ceiling than Pathfinder, so if your group is moderately optimized, then a Gunslinger with everything, let's even say they got modern/future firearms, is ... enough to keep up (in combat) - maybe.

If, on the other hand, people are playing archers that do 1d8+2 at 10th level, then a Gunslinger is going to shake things up bigtime.

My group does a moderate amount of optimization. Think typical PA/Leap Attack/Pounce builds for melee (maybe around 90ish damage/round under haste at lv 9), and the cookie cutter focused conjurer/MS build for magic (Evard's/Glitterdust/Stinking Cloud/the usual control spells). We reroll when we are around lv 11-12.



Edit: To nitpick, 3.5 does have ranged power attack - it's called Power Throw, and the prerequisite, Brutal Throw, makes thrown attacks Strength-based. So a 3.5 character can already be SAD with ranged weapons.

yep yep, Power Throw feat tree exists. I think it's decent ranged option, certainly better than the typical archery route anyway, but ehhh, some players really love using bows for whatever reason.

[Aetis]

How much damage can I expect out of a pure Gunslinger character with moderate optimization at around lv 9? (assume yes Touch AC targeting, yes grit feats, no other PF feats)

I'm trying to get an idea of where this class stands.

[Sayt]

The problem with firearms in terms of making them work, is keeping firing: I highly recommend you use the PF update for Rapid Reload which lets you reload 1h firearms as a move action, and Alchemical Cartridges to get reload time down to free action in combination with Rapid Reload, otherwise no full attack. If you then want to dual wield, you need to sheathe a firearm and draw then both as free actions so you can load. (Alternatively, extra limbs somehow.....Oh, hey, Thri-keen Gunslinger, that could be cool)

With 3.5s feat advancement (1, 3, 6, 9, IIRC), a build would probably look something like:
H: PBS
1: Precise Shot
3: Rapid Shot
4b: WF (Double Barrel Pistol)
6: Dazzling Display (PF, prerequisite for Gun Twirling)
8b: Quick Draw
9: Gun Twirling

(Next Two feats are almost certainly TWF and Improved TWF. )

With Alchemical Cartriges (1 higher misfire, one step faster reload) This gets you to a basic level of competency of "Can Full Attack every round that there's something to shoot at."

Presuming a +2 Double Barrel Pistol, without Haste up, you're looking at [+13, +13, +8; 1d8+7]* (assuming Dex mod of 5, adjust for point buy/stat availability), for 11.5~x3 damage per round. Allowing Deadly Aim would alter this to +10, +10, +5; 1d8+13 [17.5x3] (Presuming you didn't alter Deadly Aim to Pf's power attack rate/scaling), but this would delay access to TWFing with Gun Twirling unless Dazzing Display was removed as a Pre-req.

There's also the option to take the Musket Master and forgo TWFing entirely, but without Deadly Aim all that really frees you up to take is... [mind is blanking]


I'm not super familiar with some of the more arcane bits of 3.5, but the character may also be able to leverage Iajutsu Focus for extra damage, if that works with ranged weapons. This path could probably be better off not going for gun twirling and just carrying a large number of normal pistols to draw, fire, and drop (rinse, repeat) although this makes magic weapons expensive. This also has a certain recursive thematic element, as spaghetti westerns were based off of Samurai dramas!

[killem2]

I'd consider it, actually, conditionally on firearms not hitting touch within the first range increment. I also highly recommend backporting the cyclonic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/cyclonic) magic weapon ability.

Really no reason to do that considering all the other ways many classes have of mitigating enemies and since the Gunslinger is a one-trick pony I would allow it

[Aetis]

That was a very informative post. Thank you.

Even with Dex scaling, damage is kinda low. I think I will backport Deadly Aim after all.

edit: and the Rapid Reload change and the alchemical cartridges.

[Sayt]

That was a very informative post. Thank you.

Even with Dex scaling, damage is kinda low. I think I will backport Deadly Aim after all.

edit: and the Rapid Reload change and the alchemical cartridges.

Yeah, the damage for gunslingers is a compounding of of several factors: you can apply a number of options which grant damage increases for attack penalties, but the penalties aren't relevant because you roll against touch.

The other thing to take into account is that after fifth level, a gunslinger can easily branch out into different classes or Prestige.

What I'd probably run instead of Gunslinger 9 would be either Gunslinger 5/[Paladin(PF+Serenity)/Ranger/Fighter(PF)] 4. Fighter gives you 3 bonus feats(+bravery, evental weapon training), Ranger gives spellcasting, favored enemy and no-prereq TWFing, Pathfinder Paladin gives smite, great saves and healing and casting.

[Florian]

Thri-keen Gunslinger

Don´t forget that it´s often a good option to get shrunk down, best to tiny or fine if possible, to get a substantial boost to DEX.

So that´ll leave is with... Mantis!