What next for a Fighter 2/Ranger 4/Horizon Walker 6?

[Jay R]

My PC is going up a level soon, and I would like some help. I have a Fighter 2/Ranger 4/Horizon Walker 6, about to go up to 13th level, with 14th not far behind (we’ve had a lot of adventures since our last chance to level up.)

What do you recommend for his 13th (and 14th) level(s)? There’s no Feat coming before 15th level, unless he takes two levels of Fighter.

If it helps, he fights (and trips) with a Thundering Guisarme +4. His Feats are:
Power Attack
Combat Reflexes
Favored Enemy: Giants
Fast Movement
Endurance
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Improved Initiative
Leadership (his cohort is his mount - a giant owl)
Knock-Down
Short Grip
Hills Terrain Mastery
Forest Terrain Mastery
Underground Terrain Mastery
Mtn Terrain Mastery
Plains Terrain Mastery
Shifting Planar Terrain Mastery
Ride-By Attack (from Riding Boots)
Toughness, Diehard, and Greater Diehard (from a new, very powerful magic item I know little about – possibly an artifact. It’s a black armband with northern runes, with those three feats, +8 STR, some sort of morale boost, and protection from cold attacks)

He also took the Ranger variant in Unearthed Arcana:


A ranger might forgo training in weapon combat in exchange for the ability to take animal form and move swiftly through the woodlands.

Gain: Wild shape (as druid; Small or Medium animals only), fast movement (as barbarian).
Lose: Combat style, improved combat style, combat style mastery.
So wild shape is available in 2 levels of Ranger.

In case it matters, the caster level in the party is extremely light. The main players are another Fighter / Ranger, a Monk, and a Bard. The cleric and the druid show up about half the time, and there's a poorly built wizard/rogue.

[AnimeTheCat]

Go with the wild shaping ACF for the ranger, take those next two levels as ranger then take warshaper. its pretty nice :smallbiggrin:

[nedz]

Since you've gone Horizon Walker 6 I'd go with two more levels of this:
Aligned (Planar) is very good - immunity to alignment based spells: e.g. Blasphemy.
Cavernous (Planar): Unless you have tremorsense some other way ?

[Jay R]

I hope I don't sound like I'm arguing with you. I'm new to this version (having started in 1975 with original D&D), and the best way for me to learn is to question anything I don't understand.


Go with the wild shaping ACF for the ranger, take those next two levels as ranger then take warshaper. its pretty nice :smallbiggrin:
That actually sounds great, especially the +4 CON and +4 STR at level 2 of warshaper. But Prestige Classes need to be approved by the DM, so I don't know if it will be allowed. I will pursue it, but does anybody have any other ideas?

I assume that he would not have to be in a wild shape to use the abilities, that he could be in his human shape and still get the immunity from critical hits and the +4 CON. I also assume that these abilities would only be available when he could take the wildshape, i.e., only 1/day when he first gains the ability. Is this correct?


Since you've gone Horizon Walker 6 I'd go with two more levels of this:
Aligned (Planar) is very good - immunity to alignment based spells: e.g. Blasphemy.
Cavernous (Planar): Unless you have tremorsense some other way ?
We haven't been hit with any alignment based spells. We've faced a lot of demons. [In fact, we are currently in the Abyss. I've considered taking Aligned (Planar) if I level up before getting out.]

Is tremorsense that useful for somebody who already has darkvision? When, exactly, would he use it? (And it's worth remembering that he travels on a giant owl, and wouldn't be able to use it in travel, though he generally fights on the ground.)

And please feel free to critique each other's suggestions.

Again, I'm not arguing; I'm trying to learn. Please continue to help me.

[Troacctid]

Well, the only reason why you would take the wild shape variant is if you were going to take 5+ levels of ranger. So...I guess take your 5th level of ranger, and go from there.

Consider taking the Dragon Wild Shape feat. Dragons are great.


That actually sounds great, especially the +4 CON and +4 STR at level 2 of warshaper. But Prestige Classes need to be approved by the DM, so I don't know if it will be allowed. I will pursue it, but does anybody have any other ideas?
Master of Many Forms is good. Notably, it lets you morph into human and giant forms that can still use weapons, which is nice. Another option is Primeval, which sort of gives you a supercharged prehistoric morph like a dinosaur.


I assume that he would not have to be in a wild shape to use the abilities, that he could be in his human shape and still get the immunity from critical hits and the +4 CON. I also assume that these abilities would only be available when he could take the wildshape, i.e., only 1/day when he first gains the ability. Is this correct?
The second assumption is correct, the first is not. You only gain the Warshaper abilities while in a form other than your natural form.

[Jay R]

Well, the only reason why you would take the wild shape variant is if you were going to take 5+ levels of ranger.

You'd think, but no. I took it for the additional 10 feet of movement (for battlefield control), and because, as a tripper, he wasn't likely to use two weapons or achery much anyway.


So...I guess take your 5th level of ranger, and go from there.

I'm definitely considering it.


Consider taking the Dragon Wild Shape feat. Dragons are great.

Sounds great, but it requires WIS 19. Gustav is only WIS 14.


Master of Many Forms is good. Notably, it lets you morph into human and giant forms that can still use weapons, which is nice. Another option is Primeval, which sort of gives you a supercharged prehistoric morph like a dinosaur.

Master of Many Forms requires the Alertness feat, so it's at least four levels off in any case. It looks good, but has a weakness I've been worrying about for warshaper too. Those two have a lower level BAB progression. As one of only two pure melee fighters, I really think I need to advance in BAB at full speed


The second assumption is correct, the first is not. You only gain the Warshaper abilities while in a form other than your natural form.

Hmm. That reduces the value of the build tremendously, since a small or medium beast form will never fight as well as Gustav does with his Thundering guisarme +4.

Thanks for all the comments. I'm learning a lot. Please keep them coming.

[fishyfishyfishy]

What sources are you allowed just off the bat without needing to ask? Is there anything that is outright banned?

[Troacctid]

Master of Many Forms requires the Alertness feat, so it's at least four levels off in any case.
Is retraining allowed? If you have an urban companion, you get Alertness as a bonus feat. Alternately, retrain Short Grip.


It looks good, but has a weakness I've been worrying about for warshaper too. Those two have a lower level BAB progression. As one of only two pure melee fighters, I really think I need to advance in BAB at full speed
Unless you're regularly Power Attacking for your full BAB, don't worry too much about it. You have your third iterative already, and the fourth one isn't a big deal.

[Sayt]

Is tremorsense that useful for somebody who already has darkvision? When, exactly, would he use it? (And it's worth remembering that he travels on a giant owl, and wouldn't be able to use it in travel, though he generally fights on the ground.)


Well, Darkvision doesn't work on invisible enemies, Tremorsense does. Further, there is a feat called Darkhidden, which lest you stealth in darkness versus even enemies with Darkvision.

[eggynack]

Is tremorsense that useful for somebody who already has darkvision?
Yes. Darkvision is in the lowest tier of vision modes. It can plausibly be replaced by a torch, or a marginally higher end lighting option if you like. Tremorsense, by contrast, is a relatively high tier vision option, capable of partially dealing with stuff like invisibility, concealment, or even hiding.


When, exactly, would he use it? (And it's worth remembering that he travels on a giant owl, and wouldn't be able to use it in travel, though he generally fights on the ground.)
In battle, then, presumably. Finding people primarily a concern when you want to stab them. There's also some scouting value there, but it's mostly about knowing where to put the weapon.

[Jay R]

What sources are you allowed just off the bat without needing to ask? Is there anything that is outright banned?
Nothing is outright banned; I'm supposed to ask about Prestige Classes. He's a long-term DM fairly new to 3.5e, and his rulings have been fairly reasonable. He's also SCA (so am I), and doesn't allow things that seem unreasonable in melee. The result is (for instance) that I can't use a spiked chain, but he does allow a buckler with a guisarme, since he and I have both used a great weapon with a buckler.


Is retraining allowed? If you have an urban companion, you get Alertness as a bonus feat. Alternately, retrain Short Grip.
I need Short Grip, to handle people who get adjacent. [Don't recommend spiked gauntlets. I don't believe in them as a serious weapon, and they don't work well with a buckler anyway.]


Unless you're regularly Power Attacking for your full BAB, don't worry too much about it. You have your third iterative already, and the fourth one isn't a big deal.
I'm regularly Power Attacking for +5, to get +10 with the guisarme. Given the latest enemies (Kaliguhrs), I'm considering raising that to 7 or 8.


Well, Darkvision doesn't work on invisible enemies, Tremorsense does.

OK, you and Eggynack have convinced me of the value of tremorsense. Among other things, it would be easier to sneak up on people in the forest if I didn't have to see them on my approach.


Further, there is a feat called Darkhidden, which lest you stealth in darkness versus even enemies with Darkvision.

Where is that found? A quick internet search didn't show me the source for that feat.

Thanks for the advice. Keep it coming; I'm learning a lot.

[eggynack]

I don't think darkhidden is a feat. The ring of darkhidden is an item in the MIC though, one which, for 2,000 GP grants invisibility to darkvision. The real feat of importance is darkstalker, which bypasses blindsense, blindsight, scent, and tremorsense alike in terms of mundane hiding. Not the most common feat, but it's amazing at what it does, and it's a slight downside to the potential of most alternate vision modes. really have to go obscure to get around it.

[Sayt]

Whoops, Darkhidden is a ring, not a feat!

[Troacctid]

I need Short Grip, to handle people who get adjacent. [Don't recommend spiked gauntlets. I don't believe in them as a serious weapon, and they don't work well with a buckler anyway.]
That's what 5-foot steps are for. Or, failing that, natural weapons. (Ask the druid for greater magic fang.)


I'm regularly Power Attacking for +5, to get +10 with the guisarme. Given the latest enemies (Kaliguhrs), I'm considering raising that to 7 or 8.
Right, so BAB is basically the same as +1 to hit, which you shouldn't lose sleep over. If it were worth grubbing for every possible +1, you'd be taking Weapon Focus.

[Rebel7284]

Perhaps consider Psychic Warrior or War Mind?

Tripping is getting harder and harder as enemies are getting larger and larger, plus you want to maximize your zone of control. Access to Expansion power helps with both!

As your first bonus feat you can get Practiced Manifester feat for the ability to spend 4 more power points and after taking a second level of Psychic Warrior and buying a Torc of Power Preservation you will be able to augment Expansion to either manifest it as a Swift action OR to grow TWO size categories to huge.

You may need to dismount when you do this to avoid crushing your owl though. :)

[Seppo87]

You could easily add 2 Barbarian levels.
No multiclass penalties, bonus to Strength so you can trip better, Pounce and extra attck with the right ACFs (comp. champ lion totem, whirling frenzy) and then you can get Extra Rage and Reckless rage.

Not over the top but functional and simple.

If you want to try something more advanced, Psychic Warrior into Warmind, or Totemist

[eggynack]

You could easily add 2 Barbarian levels.
Why not one? The second level is usually for improved trip, but the build already has that. It's kinda a weak level without that.

[Jay R]

Lots of interesting ideas.

People have made some perfectly good suggestions that don’t fit my idea for the character, or my ideas of D&D. That’s fine, and I’m still learning from the suggestions even if I don’t wind up using them.

For instance, I’m not that interested in Psionics. I didn’t think it fit in D&D when it was first introduced in Eldritch Wizardry in 1976, and I still don’t. I have no problem with magical effects, but psionics just feels like an intrusion from outside.

Also, I don’t like the idea of becoming a barbarian after first level. You can’t be brought up away from civilization in later life. On the other hand, Gustav has spent virtually all of his adventuring time in the wilderness, and has been making a point of contrasting himself with the city-raised rest of the party. And his hit point total seems low. This may be a valid time to consider it. I'd need permission to use the Lion Totem variant, but I suspect that I'd get it.


That's what 5-foot steps are for.

... if the DM isn't smart enough to surround you.


Or, failing that, natural weapons. (Ask the druid for greater magic fang.)

The natural weapons will never match the +4 thundering guisarme.


Right, so BAB is basically the same as +1 to hit, which you shouldn't lose sleep over. If it were worth grubbing for every possible +1, you'd be taking Weapon Focus.

I considered it, but that only applies to one weapon. BAB applies when he picks up his bow, too.

But you may be right, which opens up another question: If he’s willing to accept a single level that doesn’t improve his BAB, is there a class that he can dip into that can cast in light armor, and can cast Enlarge at first level? That would be a great improvement in his battlefield control ability, for a trifling cost in BAB.

I love all the ideas. Keep 'em coming.

[Troacctid]

But you may be right, which opens up another question: If he’s willing to accept a single level that doesn’t improve his BAB, is there a class that he can dip into that can cast in light armor, and can cast Enlarge at first level? That would be a great improvement in his battlefield control ability, for a trifling cost in BAB.
Yes: Cleric. A level of cloistered cleric gives you the Strength domain (which has Enlarge Person as its 1st level spell—consider using the spontaneous domain casting variant for it), the Knowledge domain (which you can trade for Knowledge Devotion to get a +1 or better insight bonus to attack and damage, which is actually better than +1 BAB if you don't have another insight bonus), and one other domain, as well as the ability to turn undead and the ability to use wands of cleric spells without a UMD check.

Alternately, sorcerer, either using the battle sorcerer variant or retraining your fighter levels to use the armored mage variant; or wizard, and either retrain your fighter levels to the armored mage variant or suck up the 5% arcane spell failure or whatever; or just hire an NPC spellcaster to cast it and Permanency.

Other classes include Suel Arcanamach, Chameleon, and Divine Crusader, but you don't qualify for those.

[Jay R]

Yes: Cleric. A level of cloistered cleric gives you the Strength domain (which has Enlarge Person as its 1st level spell—consider using the spontaneous domain casting variant for it), the Knowledge domain (which you can trade for Knowledge Devotion to get a +1 or better insight bonus to attack and damage, which is actually better than +1 BAB if you don't have another insight bonus), and one other domain, as well as the ability to turn undead and the ability to use wands of cleric spells without a UMD check.

Alternately, sorcerer, either using the battle sorcerer variant or retraining your fighter levels to use the armored mage variant; or wizard, and either retrain your fighter levels to the armored mage variant or suck up the 5% arcane spell failure or whatever; or just hire an NPC spellcaster to cast it and Permanency.

Other classes include Suel Arcanamach, Chameleon, and Divine Crusader, but you don't qualify for those.

Several interesting ideas. Thank you.

Cloistered cleric doesn't fit. Being cloistered means being shut in or enclosed. That doesn't fit the character. He certainly isn't somebody "who spends more time than other clerics in study and prayer and less in martial training."

Battle sorcerer looks right. He'd only have 1 first-level spell, which is all I really wanted (although I wish somebody in the party would take Identify).

Permanency doesn't work because he still needs to go through doors and tunnels and such. I just want to be able to control more of the field with more damage in combat.

Thanks for eliminating the ones he can't use.

I'm still open to other idea, but I'm now mostly trying to choose between:
1. Ranger 5, with Wild Shape
2. HW7, with Aligned or Cavernous
3. Barbarian, with Lion Totem, and
4. Battle Sorcerer, with Enlarge.

[AnimeTheCat]

But you may be right, which opens up another question: If he’s willing to accept a single level that doesn’t improve his BAB, is there a class that he can dip into that can cast in light armor, and can cast Enlarge at first level? That would be a great improvement in his battlefield control ability, for a trifling cost in BAB.

I love all the ideas. Keep 'em coming.

Alternatively to both cloistered cleric and battle sorcerer there's psychic warrior which ignores ASF and gets the power Enlarge at first level with the addition of a bonus feat, which it seems like you kinda want/need.

[Troacctid]

Cloistered cleric doesn't fit. Being cloistered means being shut in or enclosed. That doesn't fit the character. He certainly isn't somebody "who spends more time than other clerics in study and prayer and less in martial training."
Well, you could also be a regular cleric.

[Jay R]

Edit: The DM has expressed his dislike for a character becoming a barbarian after growing up in civilization - and frankly, I agree. And I've decided to keep more-or-less on the path I started. So I've reduced my options to:
1. Fighter 3: BAB +1, Fort +0, Refl +1, Will +1; 6 skill points, d10 hp
[4th level would include a bonus Feat]
2. Ranger 5: BAB +1, Fort +0, Refl +0, Will +0; 10 skill points, d8 hp; 2nd Favored Enemy
[6th level would include wild shape]
3. Horizon Walker 7: BAB +1, Fort +0, Refl +0, Will + 0; 8 skill points, d8 hp; Planar Terrain Mastery (Fiery, Aligned, or Cavernous)

I normally wouldn't consider Fighter 3, but his Will save is weak, and he's been used to attack the party more than once. It's the only option that improves Will save. [It takes two levels of Ranger or three of HW to do so.]

Also, we have been attacked with flames several times on the plane we're on. That's why I'll probably go with HW with the Fiery Planar TM if we level up while we're still here.

So I'm pretty sure the next one will be either HW with Fiery PTM (if we're still in this plane) or (Ranger if we're not). If it matters, his first favored enemy is giants, and his second will be demons.

Thoughts?

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Old post:

Alternatively to both cloistered cleric and battle sorcerer there's psychic warrior which ignores ASF and gets the power Enlarge at first level with the addition of a bonus feat, which it seems like you kinda want/need.

Yes, I could use the feat, but a first level Psychic Warrior gets Expansion for one round. That’s not good enough to affect the battle.


Well, you could also be a regular cleric.

You're right, of course. A 1st level Cleric of Pelor could cast Enlarge 1/day, for 10 rounds.

Thanks for the ideas. Keep them coming. I'm currently trying to decide between the following five options, but as I just showed, I'll expand the options when shown a good one.
1. Ranger 5, with Wild Shape
2. HW7, with Aligned or Cavernous
3. Barbarian, with Lion Totem,
4. Battle Sorcerer, with Enlarge, or
5. Cleric of Pelor, with Enlarge.

Wild shape can't help him fight. No medium or small shape can fight as well as he already does with the guisarme. But it's useful for flying, swimming, burrowing, or getting into small places.

Aligned may help him right now, but would probably not come up that often.

Tremorsense can be useful for sneaking and avoiding ambush, but won't be a major affect in combat.

Enlarge would improve the reach for fighting, and help him trip, while making him an easier target as well.

But the Pounce ability, which would let him move 80 feet and then make three attacks, appears to be the one that would be the most immediate help in his primary party task.

Does that seem right to everyone?