INT-based mundane warrior

[Red Rubber Band]

Attempting to make an Intellect based warrior/fighter/mundane character for an upcoming campaign. Thoughts on what I've got so far?

4 Kensai (Magus archetype)
1 Dervish Defender (Warder archetype)
2 Unchained Monk (Sohei, Master of Many Styles archetypes)

Feats:
Weapon Focus: Short Swords (Kensai bonus)
Artful Dodge (Use INT instead of DEX for feat prereqs)
Two Weapon Fighting (Dervish Defender bonus)
Kirin Style (Monk bonus)
Kirin Strike (Monk bonus)
Combat Reflexes

Kung Fu Genius (3.5 feat. Monk bonuses from INT instead of WIS)
Knowledge Devotion (3.5 feat. Combat bonuses when using Knowledge skills)
Insightful Reflexes (3.5 feat. Replaces DEX with INT for Reflex Saves)

Two Weapon Defense and Canny Defense give INT to AC twice.

Unsure where to go from there. Another 3 levels at least to mess around with as I don't know how much higher that that we'll get. Options considered so far.
Kensai - Higher Canny Defense AC, INT to Initiative in addition to DEX, Fighter Training (if we go higher)
Monk - Ki and Move Speed
Fighter - Feats!
Factotum - 3.5 The INT synergy is always fun
Swashbuckler - 3.5 INT to hit
Bard - 3.5 Jack of All Trades ACF, with Obscure Lore feat for higher Knowledge Bonuses

It will be 15 point buy, so a lot of my physical scores will have to suffer if I want to start with a decent INT score.

I know that there are some 3.5 feats in there, but I'm not holding my breath that others will be approved as DM has put the foot down on 3.5 splashing ( managed to get in before the ban hammer hit). Please try keep it to Pathfinder.

[Seppo87]

You seem to already have what you need. Perhaps, levels in Investigator will give you more synergy.

Unfortunately, Investigator is not a dip-friendly class for combat purposes as Studied Combat comes in at LV4 and most studied strike options after LV8

However, the extra 1d6 on all trained knowledge (for free) is great to have with Knowledge Devotion

[Psyren]

Unchained Monk isn't compatible with either of those archetypes, I assume your GM houseruled you into those?

A 2-level Investigator dip is useful with the Empiricist archetype, getting you Int to things like UMD and Perception. Also, consider the Student of Philosophy and Bruising Intellect traits so you can be the party face too. If you can squeeze in a third Investigator level, you'll become able to drink mutagens (and therefore cognatogens) safely for an alchemical bonus to Int on top of all your other bonuses.

[GrayDeath]

Where is a Kensai (the PF Type) a "mundane Warrior"? Its a Novaish Gish.....?

If you were talking 3.5 Kensai I`d let it slip. ;)


Aside from that the build looks solid.

[Secret Wizard]

Kirin Style is absolute trash.

My bet for best INT-based Mundane is Lore Warden Fighter with Artful Dodge into Student of War PrC.

[Khosan]

I'd recommend Aegis for at least a few levels. That'll help shore up some of your stat weaknesses. It's not entirely mundane, but you can certainly fluff it that way. Aegis 3 and Student of the Astral Suit'll give you 10 customization points to work with, which is plenty for most purposes.

Your main issue's likely going to be damage output. You'll be able to hit stuff pretty often, just not very hard. Best bet might be further investment into Aegis (for the Increased Size customization at Aegis level 5th) and Dervish Defender Warder, focusing on Thrashing Dragon maneuvers so you can pick up Battle Dragon Stance for Int to damage.

[Red Rubber Band]

Unchained Monk isn't compatible with either of those archetypes, I assume your GM houseruled you into those?

A 2-level Investigator dip is useful with the Empiricist archetype, getting you Int to things like UMD and Perception. Also, consider the Student of Philosophy and Bruising Intellect traits so you can be the party face too. If you can squeeze in a third Investigator level, you'll become able to drink mutagens (and therefore cognatogens) safely for an alchemical bonus to Int on top of all your other bonuses.

Sohei, yes. I'm not to take any more than 2 levels of monk if I apply this archetype.
Master of Many styles should be compatible with Unchained Monk as it alters bonus feats, flurry of blows, and perfect self. All of which, an Unchained Monk gets.


Where is a Kensai (the PF Type) a "mundane Warrior"? Its a Novaish Gish.....?

If you were talking 3.5 Kensai I`d let it slip. ;)


Aside from that the build looks solid.

It is PF, and found here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/kensai).
Yeah I full derped on my reading comprehension. I'll either not be using the spells, or they'll be swapped out for alternate features. That hasn't been discussed with the DM yet. The main point of the build is to get INT synergy going and not have to use spells to be a beast*. *Definition of beast has definitely been lowered for this special corner case :P


Kirin Style is absolute trash.

My bet for best INT-based Mundane is Lore Warden Fighter with Artful Dodge into Student of War PrC.

I'm not sold on Lore Warden into Student of War. It was the build I initially started with but I get diddly for having a high INT score. I may as well play a slightly smarter Fighter, which I am not aiming to do. My physical stats will be left in the dust, possibly bar CON.
I don't believe AWT and AAT weren't out at that time, so things may be slightly different. Give me something other than "Kirin Style is absolute trash", because Kirin Strike (which requires Kirin Style) is currently all I got for INT to damage.


I'd recommend Aegis for at least a few levels. That'll help shore up some of your stat weaknesses. It's not entirely mundane, but you can certainly fluff it that way. Aegis 3 and Student of the Astral Suit'll give you 10 customization points to work with, which is plenty for most purposes.

Your main issue's likely going to be damage output. You'll be able to hit stuff pretty often, just not very hard. Best bet might be further investment into Aegis (for the Increased Size customization at Aegis level 5th) and Dervish Defender Warder, focusing on Thrashing Dragon maneuvers so you can pick up Battle Dragon Stance for Int to damage.

I'll look into your suggestions, thank you.

[Psyren]

Sohei, yes. I'm not to take any more than 2 levels of monk if I apply this archetype.
Master of Many styles should be compatible with Unchained Monk as it alters bonus feats, flurry of blows, and perfect self. All of which, an Unchained Monk gets.

Which is reasonable but still a houserule. RAW (and RAI) (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lheb), Unchained Monk is not compatible with any old archetypes.

"Finally, with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class features to replace."

[EldritchWeaver]

Which is reasonable but still a houserule. RAW (and RAI) (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lheb), Unchained Monk is not compatible with any old archetypes.

"Finally, with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class features to replace."

I would agree with you, except for the fact that this post is about PFS. Considering that PFS has a lot of additional restrictions and house rules, how much of this post is applicable to Pathfinder as a whole?

[Psyren]

I would agree with you, except for the fact that this post is about PFS. Considering that PFS has a lot of additional restrictions and house rules, how much of this post is applicable to Pathfinder as a whole?

I posted the society blog link only to show RAI. The rules quote I cited underneath that came from Pathfinder Unchained itself (page 8), not from that blog.

[Secret Wizard]

I'm not sold on Lore Warden into Student of War. It was the build I initially started with but I get diddly for having a high INT score. I may as well play a slightly smarter Fighter, which I am not aiming to do. My physical stats will be left in the dust, possibly bar CON.
I don't believe AWT and AAT weren't out at that time, so things may be slightly different. Give me something other than "Kirin Style is absolute trash", because Kirin Strike (which requires Kirin Style) is currently all I got for INT to damage.

1. You get INT-to-AC for having a high INT score, meaning you can keep low DEX. By taking the Artful Dodge feat, you don't even need Dodge to qualify for Lore Warden. Additionally, you can quickly get into the TWF featline through INT investment. Not sure what point buy you are playing, but on a 20 pb, you can easily go S16 D10 C14 I15 W10 CH8. As a Dual Talent Human, you can go +2 to STR and INT. After your second level in Student of War, that INT (probably around 18 after a +1 at level 4 or 8) becomes +4 dodge AC, that increases with a Headband of Intelligence too. Easily combinable with Mind Over Matter for a respectable touch AC that will make you nigh immune to rays and touch attacks. Not saying that it's the ultimate INT Fighter, but it gets a ton from high INT.

2. Kirin Style is absolute trash BECAUSE it requires a swift action to activate the style, a swift action to study an enemy, and a swift action to add INT to damage. That being said, you are spending two feats for what amounts to what, +8, or +10 damage ONCE a turn? And conditionally so? Not worth it at all in my opinion. You get more damage out of Double Slice and Double Slice ain't that great either.

[Psyren]

2. Kirin Style is absolute trash BECAUSE it requires a swift action to activate the style, a swift action to study an enemy, and a swift action to add INT to damage. That being said, you are spending two feats for what amounts to what, +8, or +10 damage ONCE a turn? And conditionally so? Not worth it at all in my opinion. You get more damage out of Double Slice and Double Slice ain't that great either.

Well actually, it's double Int to damage - and remember, any attack roll is eligible, so you can stick it onto things like rays and touch spells too. For attacks like these that wouldn't get iteratives anyway, the feat is helpful, and the bonus to identify a critter your party has never seen before could before could pay for itself quickly.

The swift actions cost does suck, though Combat Style Master does remove the first one.

[Secret Wizard]

Didn't think about adding to rays, but that's neither here nor there for an INT martial.

Also, the +8/+10 damage that I was projecting it would give was counting it as double INT. I doubt an INT martial would have more than 20 INT.

[Psyren]

Didn't think about adding to rays, but that's neither here nor there for an INT martial.

Also, the +8/+10 damage that I was projecting it would give was counting it as double INT. I doubt an INT martial would have more than 20 INT.

Well, you said it was "absolute trash" which implies that it's not useful for anyone at all, rather than just INT martials. If they were all you meant, then that's fairer.

[Secret Wizard]

Well, you said it was "absolute trash" which implies that it's not useful for anyone at all, rather than just INT martials. If they were all you meant, then that's fairer.

It's still absolute trash though. What caster is going to spend feats in IUS, Kirin Style and Kirin Strike, plus THREE swift actions to deal +10 damage? You can deal a ton more damage with many other options.

[Psyren]

It's still absolute trash though. What caster is going to spend feats in IUS, Kirin Style and Kirin Strike, plus THREE swift actions to deal +10 damage? You can deal a ton more damage with many other options.

Well, +10 damage for starters is only 20 Int, which you could even get at level 1 depending on build. You can get it considerably higher if you want; this thing basically does Int-10 damage, and stacks with numerous other things like sneak attack, empower+maximize, FCBs, Orc bloodline etc.

Second, it's not just casters - an Investigator might like this style too, especially since Studied Strike is also 1/round. You could pack a lot of burst into that final hit.

Third and final, Kirin Style is one of the styles that benefits from the Stamina system introduced in Unchained - allowing you to add Int mod to damage as a free action instead of 2x Int as a swift if you choose.

[Florian]

To get this back on track: What we´re talking here is INT2DMG and the synergy that comes along with goes nearly SAD, right?

It can be done with an Elf Fighter (Varisian Freestyle)5/Kensai 1+ utilizing Elf Style, Kirin Style and Weapon Finesse, best on an Elven Court Blade.

That can lead to impressive base damage, but simply lacks utility.

[Secret Wizard]

Not sure you can add INT to damage from two different sources.

[Florian]

Not sure you can add INT to damage from two different sources.

That can actually stack, no problem here (Edit: One style replaces, the other adds). The question rather is: is it worth it?

[Secret Wizard]

Replaces/adds doesn't work like that.

You cannot stack Sidestep Secret from an Oracle + Divine Grace from a Paladin to get 2x CHA to Reflex even if one replaces and one adds.

You cannot add the same attribute twice to the same thing as untyped bonuses.

[Florian]

Ah, here you err. Elven gives you replacement. Kirin gives you a one-time bonus. Same principle as with working with multipliers, as Dragon Style. It stacks.

[dascarletm]

Have you considered going Warder, particularly the Zweihander Sentinel Archetype? If you pick from schools that are mundane in nature, you should be good.

[Sayt]

Ability modifiers from the same ability do not stack (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9sgk). It doesn't matter if one got there by replacement or by addition, if you're getting an ability modifiers, you can't get it to that thing again.

IMHO, What would have been a better way to make it work from the developer/designer POV, would have been to create a Specific Ability Bonus type. So Divine Grace gives a Specific Ability[Charisma] Bonus to saves.

Dragon Style got an errata that immunised it from this clarification/nerf (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9sgz)

[Red Rubber Band]

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

Master of Many Styles has been okayed with Unchained Monk.

INT instead of DEX to AC is all well and good, but that doesn't help with offense. Physical attributes (aka STR) will be mostly left in the dust, so I need to get INT to damage at some point. I want to get this guy as SAD as possible while still being considered a mundane (or mostly, still haven't talked with the DM about what's happening with the Kensai spells).

Races are homebrewed. This guy will be this world's version of human. Traits and background thingies are out.

I have briefly looked of zweihander. Will give it another go tomorrow as I'm tired, but it doesn't seem to have the feel I'm after.