Mind Mage / Psion

[schreier]

For a new game, we're starting at level 7 ... and I'm thinking of making a telepath Psion.

Definitely trying to go the route of Telapthy level 5 ACF, and Mindsight

I am trying to determine if I position the character for Mind Mage downstream. If so, I will have to take two PsiSpell feats (so that's why I'm looking now ...)

The main Mind Mage guide I found here: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3171.0

I was a little confused about how it described the Compensation ability ...

The power says:
"Compensation (Ex): At 2nd level, armed with a better understanding of the interplay between psionic and magical power, the mind mage can blend his energies in more significant ways. Whenever he casts a spell or manifests a power using a metamagic or metapsionic feat that would normally increase the level of the spell slot occupied or the power point cost of the effect, he may instead meet that cost using an alternate form of energy. For every 3 power points spent on a spell enhanced with a metamagic feat, the mind mage may offset the spell level increase by one. Likewise, for every spell level spent on a power enhanced with a metapsionic feat, he may reduce the additional power point cost by 2. This ability may not be used in conjunction with Psi-spell feats, and it cannot reduce the level or power point cost below the amount needed for the original effect."


The guide says this about the power:
"Compensation(Ex): Pay for metamagic spell slot increase with PP, or pay for metapsionic PP cost with spell slots. Does not allow one to cast effective higher level slot spell + metamagic, as one might do with Divine Metamagic. However, it can increase the potency of mid to lower level spell slots and preserve higher level slots, or preserve PP costs on metapsionics."

I'm guessing that he based that analysis on this line: "This ability ... cannot reduce the level or power point cost below the amount needed for the original effect."

I personally read this as "it can't reduce the spell lower than it's original slot" -- i.e. a level 5 Wizard/level 5 Psion/level 5 Mind Mage (which is effectively a 8/8 caster) should be able to spend 3 power points to extend a Greater Invisibility (a level 4 spell). Normally, that would require a level 5 spell slot - but the character does not have one. Based on my reading of the power, it should work. Based on the guide, it shouldn't.

The posters here have really helped me parse through language (on spellthief, arcane hierophant, etc...) to make sure that I'm actually following RAW - and I have found several cases where generally accepted interpretations (like with the master spellthief) seem to be wrong on their face, so I'm reluctant to just accept the guide's interpretation.

Am I missing something, or should you be able to metamagic above your max spell level using Compensation?

Also - I'm a little confused about the phrasing of "whenever he casts a spell" -- I'm guessing that it would be expended when preparing the spell, not when casting it - if you are a wizard? Both interpretations seem powerful for different reasons (the "preparation" would be powerful if you have time, so you could memorize everything one day, using up your power points - then go out the next day fully metamagic'ed - and with full power points ... while doing it when casting is much more flexible).

I personally read it as preparation, since it does not talk about the ability to apply a metamagic feat to a spell, but rather "Whenever he casts a spell ... using a metamagic ... feat that would normally increase the level of the spell slot occupied or the power point cost of the effect ..." I think that it would need to be more explicit if it was meant to allow on-the-fly metamagic'ing

Another possible interpretation - which seems more confusing and limiting - would be to allow the memorization of a spell with the metamagic in the regular slot, but requiring the power points to be spent as cast. Not sure if you would set the "dedicated" points to the side and make them unavailable, or just make the spell uncastable if you do not have the power points left to metamagic the spell.

Any thoughts?

Thank you all again


PS - the reason I'm asking is that I will abandon the Mind Mage idea if it becomes too troublesome, or the powers seem weaker than I would want, considering the loss of caster and manifester levels

[ExLibrisMortis]

PS - the reason I'm asking is that I will abandon the Mind Mage idea if it becomes too troublesome, or the powers seem weaker than I would want, considering the loss of caster and manifester levels
Mind Mage leads to a higher manifester level, with fewer power points and powers known, thanks to the +class level to CL abilities at level 5 and 10. With psion 3/wizard 3 entry, you get ML and CL 21 at level 16, or 25 with Practiced Manifester/Spellcaster. From level 12 onwards, either ML or CL is ahead of your HD.

That is not what you were asking about, though. Personally, I agree with your reading. You can read "the original effect" to be the metamagic'd spell, or the base spell, and I always assumed it'd be the base spell. That is, the ability can offset/change the cost of metamagic/psionic feats, but not the cost of spellcasting/manifesting, similar to Metapower.

[schreier]

Mind Mage leads to a higher manifester level, with fewer power points and powers known, thanks to the +class level to CL abilities at level 5 and 10. With psion 3/wizard 3 entry, you get ML and CL 21 at level 16, or 25 with Practiced Manifester/Spellcaster. From level 12 onwards, either ML or CL is ahead of your HD..

I know that - but the lack of powers known could hurt? Probably less on a Psion that a wizard though (with the ability to just pump up lower level powers ... planning on Astral Construct as a level 3 expanded knowledge feat



That is not what you were asking about, though. Personally, I agree with your reading. You can read "the original effect" to be the metamagic'd spell, or the base spell, and I always assumed it'd be the base spell. That is, the ability can offset/change the cost of metamagic/psionic feats, but not the cost of spellcasting/manifesting, similar to Metapower.

It does seem to be what's written

What do you think about "when to spend the power points / apply the metamagic"? When preparing? When casting?

[Doc_Maynot]

What do you think about "when to spend the power points / apply the metamagic"? When preparing? When casting?

As it was probably assumed to be for Sorcerers (that apply when casting) and it gives no innate ability to apply Metamagic when casting for prepared casters, it would have to be deducted when you apply the metamagic. So, when you prepare the spell.

[Troacctid]

Mind Mage leads to a higher manifester level, with fewer power points and powers known, thanks to the +class level to CL abilities at level 5 and 10. With psion 3/wizard 3 entry, you get ML and CL 21 at level 16, or 25 with Practiced Manifester/Spellcaster. From level 12 onwards, either ML or CL is ahead of your HD.
Don't you need 3rd level spells? That would call for Psion 3/Wizard 3/Cerebremancer 2 entry.

You should also have Psychotheurgy raising your ML and CL well above your level for some spells/powers.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Don't you need 3rd level spells? That would call for Psion 3/Wizard 3/Cerebremancer 2 entry.

You should also have Psychotheurgy raising your ML and CL well above your level for some spells/powers.
I was assuming that you'd use some early entry (+1 Heighten of some sort), but you're right, it's better to go psion 3/wizard 1 or 3/cerebremancer 2/mind mage X, for another two levels of manifesting. The 3/3 entry was just an example, to show the ML/CL boosts and the breakoff level. With the early entry, your CL would be ahead of HD at level 12, and your ML would be ahead of HD at level 11 (right when you get the boost), so mostly the same.

[schreier]

It's a tough call - since Psion 5 for Telepathy is so tempting, but costs you a lot in CL (if you go 5/5/10 vs 3/3/2/10/2) and delays your mind-maging .... of course, you could take psion 4/5 later

I really do like the psions, the more I read up on it. I am having trouble justifying the metapsionics, since it costs the focus - but Mystic Focus is very attractive (sacrifice a lvl 1 spell for swift psionic focus)

[ExLibrisMortis]

You can get telepathy by taking Mindbender 1, so you'd enter as psion 3/wizard 1 or 3/cerebremancer 1/mindbender 1/mind mage 1. It costs you a level of manifesting, but that's better than losing two levels casting, I think (you can also use the suggested psionic mindbender adaptation, which puts you at HD-1 manifesting).

[schreier]

I've always been tempted, but I consistently play Neutral good (I know ... I know ... what's that? Sacrificing power for goodness? So non-optimal!) so I can't do the mindbender thing.

Based on the FAQ on the WOTC website, if you ever cease qualifying for a prestige class, you lose that class's abilities (keep hit points, skills, etc ... but would lose anything else). I know the Sage FAQ isn't binding, but I figure a posted FAQ on the official website is as close as we'll get to an answer (and I'm fine if the DM wants to houserule, but otherwise will follow the FAQ).

Surprisingly, the FAQ answered other questions that seem to be out there a lot (the Rainbow Servant is 6/10, "innate" spell-like abilities for the Supernatural Transformation feat really are just racial, etc ...)

In this case, taking two more levels in Psion (4 & 5) to get Telepathy seems a push, when compared to the one level dip into Mindbender where you get neither Caster nor Manifester level ... so might as well follow RP and go the Psion route eventually

And unless I find a better, more conclusive answer, it seems like the timing is "when preparing a spell" you spend the power points, and can apply metamagic to your highest level spells without a problem.

thanks again
schreier

[ExLibrisMortis]

Uh, a one-level dip in Mindbender gets you casting. That doesn't change your alignment preference, of course. Psion 2 is not that much worse, your build just comes online a bit later.

[schreier]

You're right- sorry :)

Was looking at the various feats - Quicken Power ...

Can you do a Quicken Power, Mystic Focus, and Quicken Spell all in the same turn, in addition to a full round action?

[Doc_Maynot]

Can you do a Quicken Power, Mystic Focus, and Quicken Spell all in the same turn, in addition to a full round action?
Unfortunately, no.
Mystic Focus is a swift action.
Manifesting is a Quickened Power is a swift action as per XPH p. 59.
Casting a Quickened Spell is a Swift Action as per errata (since it was using the wording form 3.0 when Swift and Immediate actions weren't a thing.)
So no, you can only do one of the three before taking a full round.

[schreier]

Weird they put the swift language on page 59 instead of in the quicken power ... oh well ... I guess you could with schism (without quicken)

With schism, is a silent, still spell without material components purely mental? If so, schism could let you cast 3 spells? Regular, quicken, and regular using schism. I wonder if you lose CL with the magic psionic transparency

[Doc_Maynot]

With no physical action being taken, so long as the spell doesn't have material components (Or you take Eschew Materials), yes it would be purely mental by that point.

"The default rule for the interaction of psionics and magic is simple: Powers interact with spells and spells interact with powers in the same way a spell or normal spell-like ability interacts with another spell or spell-like ability. This is known as psionics-magic transparency."

So yes, it would stand that your second mind could cast your spells at -6 CL

[ExLibrisMortis]

Schism doesn't mention any CL reduction for your second mind, so it should cast normally, provided that the spell is actually Material/Focus-less (or you are already wearing the focus, as for shapechange), Still and Silent.

[schreier]

I was going back through compensation, and became confused again ... If you spend the pp when preparing, does that cause a problem with max pp per round, or do you assume each spell you memorized was a different round?

I'm tempted to instead have the caster declare which metamagic powers are being applied to each spell ... And then you need to spend the pp when you cast ... Basically you memorized then in a way that takes pp when you cast. If you don't have the pp available (either not enough left or already used enough that it would cause you to exceed manifester level that runs) .. you can't cast that spell. Interestingly enough, it seems like you could use compensation on any class's spells .. if you dipped cloistered cleric, it should work there too

That doesn't seem to conflict RAW and I believe is manageable ... Applying the metamagic on the fly seems to expand the power too much, and spending when memorizing seems to violate manifester level limits

[sleepyphoenixx]

Schism doesn't mention any CL reduction for your second mind, so it should cast normally, provided that the spell is actually Material/Focus-less (or you are already wearing the focus, as for shapechange), Still and Silent.
I'd assume that standard psionic-magic transparency applies, if it's in effect in your campaign.
So either any ML/CL modifiers apply to both psionics and magic or none do, and the former reading is much more advantageous to a psionic/magic theurge.


I was going back through compensation, and became confused again ... If you spend the pp when preparing, does that cause a problem with max pp per round, or do you assume each spell you memorized was a different round?


The pp limit isn't per round, it's per power. You can spend as many pp per round as you want to if you have the actions.

[schreier]

I'd assume that standard psionic-magic transparency applies, if it's in effect in your campaign.
So either any ML/CL modifiers apply to both psionics and magic or none do, and the former reading is much more advantageous to a psionic/magic theurge.



The pp limit isn't per round, it's per power. You can spend as many pp per round as you want to if you have the actions.

PP per power - that's useful .... does that mean you expend the power points when memorizing do you think? I think either is a reasonable position, and it seems like RAW doesn't cover it .. one of the problems in dealing with a 3.0 Dragon Magazine class, as it applies to 3.5 D&D - a newer system which is still like 6 year (or more) out of print ...

[Doc_Maynot]

As I stated before.


As it was probably assumed to be for Sorcerers (that apply when casting) and it gives no innate ability to apply Metamagic when casting for prepared casters, it would have to be deducted when you apply the metamagic. So, when you prepare the spell.


However it could be argued that ability just cannot be used without the possessing the ability to apply metamagic as you cast a spell. Like being a spontaneous caster, or by picking up Versatile Spellcaster in some fashion.

[sleepyphoenixx]

PP per power - that's useful .... does that mean you expend the power points when memorizing do you think? I think either is a reasonable position, and it seems like RAW doesn't cover it .. one of the problems in dealing with a 3.0 Dragon Magazine class, as it applies to 3.5 D&D - a newer system which is still like 6 year (or more) out of print ...

Well, the way i see it you have 3 possible interpretations.
1. you prepare the spell with metamagic and pay the cost then.
2. you prepare the spell with metamagic and pay the cost when you cast it.
3. you prepare the spell normally and can pay PP when you cast it to apply metamagic.

3 is out imo. The ability doesn't say you can use metamagic spontaneously if you're a wizard, so you can't.
1 most closely resembles the way the wizard already works. You prepare everything beforehand and it's available until you use it. It doesn't mesh with psionics well though because you can "save" pp from the day before, which is probably not gamebreaking but wizards also don't need a power boost. You could make it so "reserved" pp don't refresh while the spell is memorized, but you may as well go with 2.
2 removes the problem of a wizard keeping spells memorized with free metamagic and still getting all his PP, so that's what i'd go with personally.

[schreier]

Well, the way i see it you have 3 possible interpretations.
1. you prepare the spell with metamagic and pay the cost then.
2. you prepare the spell with metamagic and pay the cost when you cast it.
3. you prepare the spell normally and can pay PP when you cast it to apply metamagic.

3 is out imo. The ability doesn't say you can use metamagic spontaneously if you're a wizard, so you can't.
1 most closely resembles the way the wizard already works. You prepare everything beforehand and it's available until you use it. It doesn't mesh with psionics well though because you can "save" pp from the day before, which is probably not gamebreaking but wizards also don't need a power boost. You could make it so "reserved" pp don't refresh while the spell is memorized, but you may as well go with 2.
2 removes the problem of a wizard keeping spells memorized with free metamagic and still getting all his PP, so that's what i'd go with personally.

Agreed, and agreed ... 1 and 2 both work and are relatively consistent with current rules (like you said - 1 is more consistent with wizard, 2 is more consistent with psionics)

I'll go ahead and use 2, since there is relatively equal rationale for each, and it seems more fair and balanced. The reserve actually seems like the worst option, since you will be locked into your power point expenditures already. That could easily lock up all of your power points - I'd rather keep the flexibility of using psionics as needed (but knowing that, if I use too many power points on psionics, I will lose access to spells with preapplied metamagic)

I also do not see anything that contradicts the ability to apply metamagic to classes other than the arcane class you gained mind mage in (so level 1 cloistered cleric dip could apply metamagic to spells)

Seems powerful, but within the rules and relatively balanced (as balanced as wizards get)

[sleepyphoenixx]

Agreed, and agreed ... 1 and 2 both work and are relatively consistent with current rules (like you said - 1 is more consistent with wizard, 2 is more consistent with psionics)

I'll go ahead and use 2, since there is relatively equal rationale for each, and it seems more fair and balanced. The reserve actually seems like the worst option, since you will be locked into your power point expenditures already. That could easily lock up all of your power points - I'd rather keep the flexibility of using psionics as needed (but knowing that, if I use too many power points on psionics, I will lose access to spells with preapplied metamagic)

I also do not see anything that contradicts the ability to apply metamagic to classes other than the arcane class you gained mind mage in (so level 1 cloistered cleric dip could apply metamagic to spells)

Seems powerful, but within the rules and relatively balanced (as balanced as wizards get)

Having your choices locked in at the start of the day is the main drawback of playing a wizard. Do keep in mind though that you can still leave slots unfilled, and you still have access to options like Uncanny Forethought (assuming you can afford the feat cost).
I favor option 2 mainly because it's the simplest interpretation. Keeping track of reserved PP would just add another hassle to a class that's already heavy on paperwork.

As for the ability to apply metamagic to other classes, i wouldn't worry too much. A Mind Mage already loses a lot of casting progression just by it's nature as a theurge and 8/10 progression class.
Any dip to apply metamagic for PP to another list of spells will only reduce your power instead of improve it.

[schreier]

Having your choices locked in at the start of the day is the main drawback of playing a wizard. Do keep in mind though that you can still leave slots unfilled, and you still have access to options like Uncanny Forethought (assuming you can afford the feat cost).
I favor option 2 mainly because it's the simplest interpretation. Keeping track of reserved PP would just add another hassle to a class that's already heavy on paperwork.

As for the ability to apply metamagic to other classes, i wouldn't worry too much. A Mind Mage already loses a lot of casting progression just by it's nature as a theurge and 8/10 progression class.
Any dip to apply metamagic for PP to another list of spells will only reduce your power instead of improve it.

Agreed - I was just thinking that sometimes a one level dip for cloistered cleric helps skills, but you're right - it's crazy from a caster level perspective unless you were playing epic
And also agreed that that is the drawback of wizards - but locking in spells and power point expenditures seems like too much (effectively nerfing the psionic powers) ... it's a good balance, and the simplest to recordkeep.

I am just now trying to figure out a way to work a mind mage into play, since it such a late developing class.