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Belac93
2016-06-27, 03:30 PM
I want to make a character who is the best at fighting spellcasters.

So, lets get into it.

So, here I will be pointing out all the ways you can fight spellcasters.

Saving throws. Wisdom and Constitution are your most important, followed by Dexterty, then Charisma, with Strength lagging behind and Intelligence almost gone.

ScoresHowever, Intelligence is actually one of your most important ability scores. It will let you know your enemy, and give you a high arcana. I would keep it at least 12, if not 14.

Hill dwarves give bonuses to the most important saves, extra hit points against blasters, and a resistance to poison. Not bad.

Elves are great, mainly for Fey Ancestry. Enchanters get a huge penalty when they are up against you. A niche ability that is not well known, ghouls in the MM have paralyzing claws that do not work on elves, so that is also good against necromancers. If you are a drow, watch out for the sunlight.

Stout Halflings have resistance to fear, lucky (no more 1s on saving throws), and poison resistance. A pretty good race.

Humans get to start with either Resilient or Mage Slayer at level 1. My go-to race after gnomes.

Dragonborn have resistance to a single damage type. I wouldn't bother with them.

Gnomes are an obvious choice. Bonuses to intelligence, two of the important saving throws, and then their best ability, advantage on all mental saving throws against magic! How awesome is that!? What's more, being a Deep Gnome lets you cast Nondetection at will! Diviners don't stand a chance against you! I would recommend this race over all others.

Half elves are good for the same reasons as Elves, but with a small penalty. They do not gain the resistance to ghoul touches, which is a bit of a bummer. However, you have more flexible ability score increases, and extra skills, making you possibly better than elves.

Half orcs pretty much just have extra CON and relentless endurance.

Tieflings have resistance to fire damage, which is nice, and darkness at higher levels is cool. With SCAG, you can take Feral Tiefling (better ability scores), and winged to try and stay out of their reach.

Aasimar are only really nice against clerics and necromancers, or people who have curse spells.

Fire and Water genasi are alright for their resistances and ability scores.

Barbarians are extremely hard hitters, have advantage on dexterity saving throws, and with the wolf totem, give advantage to their allies. Great when paired with Mage Slayer. Beware Wisdom saving throws.

Bards have countercharm (no more enchanting), and magical secrets which lets them gain any mage-fighting spell they want. Nice.

Clerics are decent. Turn undead makes then the best characters at fighting necromancers. Nature domain can also give resistance to energy damage types. Arcane domain has dispel magic and the ability to dispel summoned creatures, as well as removing spells on their allies and gaining anti-magic field at level 17.

Druids are not so good at this. Arctic druids will give you slow, and makes you protected from elementals and fey. They do have dispel magic and restoration spells, but no counterspell or anti-magic.

Fighters are quite good. Action surge is nice for when you need to take them down right now, an abundance of ability score increases gives you the feats you need, and Indomitable lets you re-roll saving throws. Eldritch knights also have spells up to 4th level, allowing them to cast counterspell and dispel magic a couple times. If UA is allowed, you have the Monster Hunters, which are literally the definition of this guide. They have resistance on saving throws, and can disrupt concentration, as well as a couple of protective spells. No dispel magic or counterspell sadly.

Monks are very nice. Stunning strike is awesome for when you need them to stop casting for a turn, evasion gives advantage on some saves, and then there is stillness of mind, purity of body, and diamond soul. They are niche, but awesome. Shadow monk also gets darkness and silence.

Paladins are probably the best martial mage-hunters. Good spells, aura of protection and courage, and immunity to disease are the least of their powers. Cleansing touch lets them end a single spell on a creature they touch. Devotion gains protection from good and evil permanently on themselves and immunity to charms. Ancients have, and bestow, resistant to magic! Not only are you a mage hunter, so is your entire party!

Rangers are bad mage hunters. Enough said.

Rogues have evasion, blind sense, slippery mind, and stroke of luck. Arcane tricksters can steal spells from opponents and use them for themselves, and masterminds are immune to all forms of truth telling magic.

Sorcerers have good spells, and some good metamagic.

Warlocks have most of the right spells, witch sight, and detect magic at will, along with the best attack cantrip in the game. A solid choice. Fey and great old one warlocks also have nice immunities and resistances to mind magic. Undying warlocks also get silence.

Wizards are amazing, and probably the best spellcaster mage hunters. Abjuration wizards have resistance to magic and better counterspelling. Diviners have portent. Transmuters get proficiency in constitution saving throws. And they have every spell you need. Bladesingers also function surprisingly well in anti-magic field. I'm not certain of this, but bladesong is technically not magic.

You only need to consider lucky, resilient, and mage slayer. All the others are not useful to you. Only take mage slayer if you are a martial, or a part time martial (bladelock, bladesinger).

Cantrips
Chill touch is good against necromancers, and lets you prevent pesky foes of healing (perfect against vampires).
Resistance lets you help your friends save against enemy spells. +1-4 is pretty nice.
Thorn Whip means that enemies cannot escape you quite to easily.

Level 1 spells
Bane means opponents will fail against your spells.
Bless means allies will resist opponent spells.
Command pretty much incapacitates an enemy for a turn, allowing you (or your allies) to get in the strikes you need.
Compelled Duel makes it so the squishy spellcaster will come out and try to fight you like a warrior, and promptly be squished by the real warrior.
Detect Evil and Good can be useful against summoners.
Detect magic lets you know what you are up against, without having to use arcana.
Fog cloud means the enemy can't see you. Enormously powerful if cast by an arcane trickster with blindsight.
Protection from Evil and Good gives you a huge advantage over summoners.
Sleep. Spellcasters aren't known for having high health, right? Can be a lifesaver at lower levels.

Level 2 spells
Blindness/Deafness means the spellcaster can't see you, and so cannot target you.
Darkness makes it so the spellcaster can't see you. Beware if you don't have devil's sight however, because you won't be able to see either.
Enhance Ability gives advantage on saving throws.
Lesser Restoration helps you get rid of your allies conditions.
See Invisibility means no more invisible enemies, obviously.
Silence stops all spells with verbal components! The first actual, proper, anti-magic spell.

Level 3 spells
Beacon of Hope gives all your allies advantage on Wisdom saving throws. Hopefully this can prevent the barbarian from coming after you, charmed once again.
Blinding Smite accomplishes pretty much the same thing as Blindness/Deafness.
Blink means opponents can't cast spells on you 50% of the time.
Counterspell is the anti-magic spell. Prevents an enemy from doing anything in the first place, effectively making them lose a turn and a spell slot, at the cost of one of yours.
Dispel magic is right up there with counterspell. Sadly, it takes up an action, but it gets rid of one magical affect, anywhere. GET IT!!!
Haste. If you are a melee character and manage to get your hands on this, do. You can cast dispel magic, and attack, on the same turn! Or you could, you know, just attack twice. But that's lame.
Nondetection means you are immune to divination for a while. Be a deep gnome to get this at-will.
Protection from Energy is useful against blasters.
Remove Curse lets you get rid of your, and your allies debuffs.
Slow prevents enemies from casting properly, It gives opponents a 50% chance to take 2 turns casting the spell.

Level 4 spells
Aura of Purity gives resistance to pretty much every debilitating effect.
Banishment lets you get rid of the spellcaster for a turn, and then all prepare to attack them once they come back out of where they were.
Confusion means that a spellcaster affected by it only has a 20% chance to be able to cast a spell at all on their turn. With 2 people, combine with slow to pretty much destroy them.
Otiluke’s Resilient Sphere. Either you, an ally, or a spellcaster is completely sealed off from the world. Can give you a little while to ready actions and cast buffs, just remember they will be doing that as well.

Level 5 spells
Banishing Smite is like banishment, but you also get to smite them! Best of both worlds!
Circle of Power. Awesome! All friendly creature within 30 feet of you has magic resistance. This is an awesome spell.
Dispel Evil and Good lets you get rid of the things that up until now, you could only protect against or detect. Great against summoners.
Dominate Person prevents an opponents from doing anything helpful for them self for a while, and even lets you control them.
Greater Restoration is pretty much the ultimate cure-all.
Wall of Force lets you have an indestructible wall to protect yourself.
Wall of Stone. Enemies can't see through this, or you can separate the caster from their minions.

Level 6 spells
Disintegrate is a nullifying dispel magic to many spells, keep it handy.
Eyebite prevents an opponent from taking actions, so its good.
Forbiddance lets you negate all teleportation, and is good against summoners.
Globe of Invulnerability lets you make the spellcaster either come to you, or stand your arrows forever.
Otto's Irresistible Dance lets you immobilize an enemy with no save. Nice.
Wall of Thorns has the same effect as wall of stone, but can be passed through. However, it is slow, and damages enemies who try to get through it.

Level 7 spells
Divine Word is blinding, stunning, deafening, and possibly even killing in one action. Very cool, very good against summoners.
Forcecage lets you trap enemies, and best of all, it is mostly magic proof.
Symbol is a nasty surprise, and you can code it to certain creatures, including any who can cast spells.

Level 8 spells
Antimagic Field. Forget what I said about counterspell. Forget what I said about dispel magic. You won't need those anymore. Everything within 10 feet of you is simply not magic anymore. Spells can't got through it, be cast in it, can't project into it, can't enchant anything in it. Even summoned creatures disappear when in it. The ultimate antimagic spell.
Dominate Monster is like dominate person, but it can affect anything.
Maze is like banishment, but I like it more somehow.
Mind blank means immunity to brain spells. No more domination or enchantment, ever. You simply cannot be targeted by them.

Level 9 spells
Mass Heal is everyone cured of blindness and deafness, as well as any diseases, instantly.
Power Word Heal is one creature fully recovered, all hit points back, and most importantly, all conditions gone.
Prismatic Wall is the best wall spell, and nearly impossible to penetrate. Its good if you need to make a plan or rest for about 10 minutes.
Time Stop; cast this, and then either dispel magic, or simply Antimagic Field and end it.
Wish; and now you can cast almost everything on this list.

So, thoughts, critiquing, ideas?

Foxhound438
2016-06-27, 03:40 PM
all sound as far as I can see, with the only discrepancy being that eldritch knight (fighter) does in fact get access to both dispel magic and counterspell. They aren't super good at it, since the highest slots they get are 4th, but they can do it.

If I were you i'd throw together a short list of spells that are good with or without explicit usefulness (ie silence, wall of stone to break LOS, etc), and maybe a couple of example builds.

Specter
2016-06-27, 03:57 PM
Charisma's save includes Banishment. That's a big one. But anyway.

Gnome is solid for the saves, while Human gets Lucky which can be just as good. These are the best bets in my opinion.

As for the class, Bladesinger/Valor Bard sound like the best bet, since they can hit hard and counterspell mages into oblivion.

MrStabby
2016-06-27, 04:00 PM
You really rate paladin higher than something like a shadow-monk?

So many spells use "a target you can see" so darkness is awesome. So many spells have a verbal component so Silence is awesome. So many casters have low con saves so stunning strike is awesome. So many spells need a save, so getting extra save proficiency is awesome. Shutting of a caster quickly is important so being a class that is based on high dex is pretty cool.

Shadowstep lets you get to the casters when they make themselves inaccessible, stealth lets the monk do it in their sleep

TundraBuccaneer
2016-06-27, 04:53 PM
On fighters you talk about the mage hunter archetype from UA, do you mean the monster hunter? Or did I miss something fun?

Belac93
2016-06-27, 04:59 PM
You really rate paladin higher than something like a shadow-monk?

Well, I just find that the boost to all saves and Devotion or Ancients auras are way better. Shadow monk is awesome, don't get me wrong, but what are you going to do when your big barbarian friend is charmed?

I'm rating paladin higher because it not only protects you, it protects your allies as well.


So many spells use "a target you can see" so darkness is awesome. So many spells have a verbal component so Silence is awesome. So many casters have low con saves so stunning strike is awesome. So many spells need a save, so getting extra save proficiency is awesome. Shutting of a caster quickly is important so being a class that is based on high dex is pretty cool.

Forgot about silence. The stunning strike and save proficiency are already noted.


all sound as far as I can see, with the only discrepancy being that eldritch knight (fighter) does in fact get access to both dispel magic and counterspell. They aren't super good at it, since the highest slots they get are 4th, but they can do it.

If I were you i'd throw together a short list of spells that are good with or without explicit usefulness (ie silence, wall of stone to break LOS, etc), and maybe a couple of example builds.

I did say that eldritch knights get those spells, it was the UA Mage Hunter that doesn't.

I am going to edit the spell thing, this was a first draft. Thanks for the tips!


Charisma's save includes Banishment. That a big one. But anyway.

Gnome is solid for the saves, while Human gets Lucky which can be just as good. These are the best bets in my opinion.

As for the class, Bladesinger/Valor Bard sound like the best bet, since they can hit hard and counterspell mages into oblivion.

Thanks for the tip about banishment. Also, that was a typo. Charisma is supposed to be rated higher than strength.


On fighters you talk about the mage hunter archetype from UA, do you mean the monster hunter? Or did I miss something fun?

Oops, another typo for me. I totally thought it was mage hunter (which the mechanics actually fit better. Weird).

Easy_Lee
2016-06-27, 05:16 PM
It's going to depend on the GM, I think.

If the DM is stealth-friendly, one can build a really kickass deep gnome shadow monk. Odd, flavorful, and interesting. Use shadow teleportation and pass without trace to get to your target, then stun him to death. Constitution is often a traditional wizard's lowest save. Combine gnome with Diamond Soul and Stillness of Mind, and you can afford to make a few mistakes or get caught by a spell or two. This is very important if you have a DM who insists that bad things happen to the party at some point, no matter what. Look at Alert and Mage Slayer.

If the DM isn't fond of stealth, or you suspect your scouting efforts aren't going to help at all, a gnome abjuration wizard is the overall best. You can cast counterspell many times, then use your own turn for silence, flesh to stone, hold person, anti magic field, or whatever is most appropriate. Can't really beat the utility. Best thing about this option is that, if you play it correctly, there's little your DM can do about it, within reason.

Slipperychicken
2016-06-27, 06:05 PM
Do we already have anything about grappling people to hold them in a silence spell? If that's considered an option, then I'd rate bards, barbarians, and druids a little better.


I think that properly fighting spellcasters is a team effort. For example, a druid might conjure a bunch of constrictor snakes (or wildshape into one himself) to grapple a caster and drag him into a silence effect created by his bard ally, while said bard stands ready to counterspell the enemy caster if he tries anything funny.

Belac93
2016-06-27, 06:17 PM
Spells are done.

Aaron Underhand
2016-06-27, 06:36 PM
I assume the best Mage Hunter has two levels of Wiz (divination)... a portent die and guaranteed failed save is the end...

Feats: Alert - make sure you get initiative...

Cantrips
Shocking grasp stops reactions - so no counterspell - and can be delivered by an (invisible) familiar

Level 1 spells
Magic Missile - pulls out those pesky shield spells, and again uses a reaction
Sleep. Spellcasters may well be elves... be careful!.
Hex giving disadvantage on wisdom really helps sneak up...

Level 2 spells

Enhance Ability DOES NOT give advantage on saving throws. - but it's great for stealth, and for initiative rolls
Invisibility - concentration, but 1 hour... and multiple party members at higher level

Level 3 spells
Leomund’s Tiny Hut - perfect magical defence... heal and re-sortie

Level 4 spells
Polymorph - he turned me into a toad.... I got better...
wisdom save, but it's save or die...... just make sure to kill it with enough 'blow through' damage to take the mage to 0...

Socratov
2016-06-27, 11:18 PM
Might I interest you in the build I presented (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20934456&postcount=28) as a mage hunter on another thread?

Belac93
2016-06-27, 11:24 PM
Might I interest you in the build I presented (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20934456&postcount=28) as a mage hunter on another thread?

Ooo, very nice. Do you mind if I add a link to this once I create a builds section?

Socratov
2016-06-28, 01:32 AM
Ooo, very nice. Do you mind if I add a link to this once I create a builds section?

By all means, if I wouldn't have wanted to I wouldn't have posted it :)

Maybe include what you think are its strengths and weaknesses (a good thing to do with any build, but I digress). I fyou want I could include his twin brother the divination wizard version... (though in that case I'd name the sorc one Lt. aldo Raine and the wizard version lt. col. Hans Landa to keep the characters a bit more consistent)


Edit: here they are: Lt. Aldo Raine and Col. Hans Landa

Lieutenant Aldo "The Apache" Raine

"You probably heard we ain't in the prisoner-takin' business; we in the killin' Mage business. And cousin, business is a-boomin'."

Half Elf lvl X Wild Magic Sorcerer

Ability Scores:


Ability
lvl 1
lvl 4
lvl 8
lvl 12
lvl 16


Strength
8
8
8
8
8


Dexterity
15(+1)
16
16
18
20


Constitution
15(+1)
16
16
16
16


Intelligence
10
10
10
10
10


Wisdom
8
8
8
8
8


Charisma
14(+2)
18
20
20
20


"Now, I'm the direct descendant of the mountain man Jim Bridger. That means I got a little Injun in me"
At 1st level the values between brackets are the Half elf bonii
At lvl 19 you can take whatever you want

Class features:
"You know how you get to Carnegie Hall, don't ya? Practice"
Tides of chaos: for that moment you try to hit a restrained mage, but fail for some reason. it can also be used on ability checks, so if your DM considers initiative an ability check use this for getting advantage on initiative.

Bend Luck: 1d4 on the enemy mage's saving throw, DE-licious!

Metamagic: get quicken and Heighten, the latter for disadvantage on the enemy's savingthrow, the former to make sure you can get right on the damage dealing.

Spells: pick something that either goes for incapacitated or better (thanks to bend luck and heighten you get at least 2 turns of quickened damaging to chew through those HP's. As long as the enemy caster can't cast, obviously disintegrate and gust of wind.

Background: I'd go for urchin, fold in the jealousy of trained wizards, developed powers, get those juicy stealth profs.

Weak points:
"Bongiorneau" ~very bad accent

Sure there are holes here: simulacra, private demiplanes, clones, the works. By this time the only way our Hans Landa will need to produce a few scrolls of wish (to escape the negative clause) to negate the demiplane, another to wish away the wizard's magic and a 3rd to take his life, add a 9th lvl counterspell to negate any contingency the wizard has. By then it's take some memento, disperse the body, and get back. But this is only because there are no other options.



Col. H. Landa "The Mage Hunter"

"What a tremendously hostile world that a rat must endure. Yet not only does he survive, he thrives. Because our little foe has an instinct for survival and preservation second to none... And that, Monsieur, is what a mage shares with a rat."

Deep Gnome Diviner Wizard

Ability scores:



Ability
lvl 1
lvl 4
lvl 8
lvl 12
lvl 16


Strength
8
8
8
8
8


Dexterity
15(+1)
16
16
18
20


Constitution
14
14
14
14
14


Intelligence
14(+2)
18
20
20
20


Wisdom
12
12
12
12
12


Charisma
8
8
8
8
8


A detective. A damn good dectective. Finding people is my specialty so naturally I work for the Order finding people, and yes some of them were mages. But "Mage Hunter"? It's just a name that stuck!
At 1st level the values between brackets are the Deep Gnome bonii
At lvl 19 you can take whatever you want

Class features:
"Sitting in your chair, I would probably say the same thing. And 999 point 999 times out of a million, you would be correct. But in the pages of history, every once in a while, fate reaches out and extends its hand."

Portent: Screw fate so hard it will ge curled up like a foetus crying in the corner. Ok, maybe not that dramatic, but this feature is how you make at least one save fail.

Spells: pick something that either goes for incapacitated or better (thanks to bend luck and heighten you get at least 2 turns of quickened damaging to chew through those HP's. As long as the enemy caster can't cast, obviously disintegrate and gust of wind. also, you ahve access to cheap divination spells so you are actually able to track better as well and at lvl 10 you get to see invisible creatures.

Background: take whichever you prefer, though urchin for stealth proficiency can't hurt

Weak points:
"Are you mad? What have you done? I made a deal with your general for that man's life!"

Sure there are holes here: the very same as for the sorcerer's in fact. That said, he is more resistant to an enemy mage's spells targeting mental stats, and his arcana check is better so he needs to waste lower lvl spellslots when counterspelling. that said, he isn't particular charismatic.



Havelock Vetinari, Patrician of Ankh-Morpork - Si non confectus, non reficiat

Half-elf X lore Bard

Abilities:



Ability
lvl 1
lvl 4
lvl 8
lvl 12
lvl 16


Strength
8
8
8
8
8


Dexterity
15(+1)
16
16
16
18


Constitution
15(+1)
16
16
16
16


Intelligence
15(+1)
16
16
18
18


Wisdom
8
8
8
8
8


Charisma
14(+2)
18
20
20
20


"You need a special kind of mind to rule a city like Ankh-Morpork, and Lord Vetinari had it. But then, he was a special kind of person."

The lore bard can take a hit and still out initiative people due to initiative being an abilitycheck and thus qualifying for Jack of all trades. s for charisma, make it high, as a kite like a toker mid munchies.

Class:
"'I shall deal with the matter momentarily,' he said. It was a good word. It always made people hesitate. They were never quite sure whether he meant he'd deal with it now, or just deal with it briefly. And no-one ever dared ask."

So, the lore bard obviously uses his jack of all trades for pumping the counterspell check and expertises Stealth at the very least. I'd say Persuasion to be in character as well, maybe spot or something or acrobatics. Then investigation or something or other to make sure he a well endowed intelligence network to find out exactly how powerful his enemy is so he knows how to handle the person in question. Stealth to move silently and surprise the enemy is welcome as well.

Then there is the cutting words ability to make sure ene enemy really sticks to being disabled. The best part is, while portent will only last you so many times (twice to be exact), and heighten only works for the initial save. cutting words seems to work on any save an enemy tries to make.

Arcane Secrets will of course be used to pilfer all the best disables for any spellcaster in the game.

As for background, it doesn't exactly matter, though a background with some minions/personell/friends in low places won't hurt.

And that's it really. It has the same weaknesses as the other builds and uses pretty much the same workaround.






win initiative
use disabling effects, and make sure they stick.
have counterspells at the ready for contingency effects
use cantrips or direct damage to kill said wizard.
make sure he is really, really, dead by disintegrating his body and dispersing the ashes, though keep a keepsake to be able to proof you killed him
cash in the reward.
receive orders for next target and return to step 1


So, to make step 1 happen: get the alert feat and a high dex (start at 16, get to 20 after you raised main stat to 20) for a +8 t +10 on initiative.

Step 2 relies on the right spell and tacking on disadvantage the right spells will be on both the wizard and sorcerer lists and what's better, the wizard can go all portent on his enemy's ass. This does create the problem that it only works when you roll low. 2 high rolls and this tactic won't work today. The sorcerer can in the mean time heighten his spells, and with the Wild Magic Sorcerer's Bend luck ability you can make damn well sure the enemy fails that save.

Step 3 is thus: get Counterspell, use it at your highest level as possible, also get some intelligence for those arcana checks if the spell lvl is not enough.

Step 4-7 speak for themselves.

Attribute as follows:

1st: main casting stat to pump that DC
2nd: dex for those juicy initiative bonuses
3rd: con to maintain concentration for whatever reason. Also Con is IMO always at least 3rd priority if not higher.
4th: get some points into int, if it's not your main stat.

Bonus points if you are decent at stealth enough to surprise the target for a surprise round


Edit: added the builds, revised and tactics
Edit 2: added Vetinari
Edit3: apparently counterspelling is not an arcana check, but a flat intelligence check. Still makes a wizard less then a bard at counterspelling, ironically (apart from a lvl 10 abjurer, but they make poor mage hunters IMO).

ES Curse
2016-06-28, 06:36 AM
As mentioned, the important part of fighting spellcasters is negating all those annoying magical tricks. Ideally, you don't want to be spending spell slots to do this, as you are stuck choosing from a much narrower pool of options than the opposing spellcaster. Even if you are a full caster, you want to close into melee distance and make use of the Mage Slayer feat (embarking on this career as a non-V.Human below level 4 is a poor choice). The Booming Blade cantrip is really good for locking down casters, and can be brutal when combined with Mage Slayer. Because of this, a gished Sorcerer*, Bladelock, or Bladesinger sounds like the best idea for mage hunting to me.

*While Sorcerers don't have the weapon proficiency of Bladesingers and Bladelocks, Metamagic can be a game changer when used right. Quicken and even Heighten have the potential to cripple your target with the right spells. Heightened Polymorph, anyone?

Socratov
2016-06-28, 07:04 AM
As mentioned, the important part of fighting spellcasters is negating all those annoying magical tricks. Ideally, you don't want to be spending spell slots to do this, as you are stuck choosing from a much narrower pool of options than the opposing spellcaster. Even if you are a full caster, you want to close into melee distance and make use of the Mage Slayer feat (embarking on this career as a non-V.Human below level 4 is a poor choice). The Booming Blade cantrip is really good for locking down casters, and can be brutal when combined with Mage Slayer. Because of this, a gished Sorcerer*, Bladelock, or Bladesinger sounds like the best idea for mage hunting to me.

*While Sorcerers don't have the weapon proficiency of Bladesingers and Bladelocks, Metamagic can be a game changer when used right. Quicken and even Heighten have the potential to cripple your target with the right spells. Heightened Polymorph, anyone?

well, it basically becomes rocket tag: the first to disable the other wins.

Sir cryosin
2016-06-28, 07:31 AM
Ok here is my favorite mage hunter if I'm staying single class it dragon sorcerer. It dex based you get con proficiency ,permanent mage armor 13+dex. Now for the main reason is meta magic. You can counterspell dispel magic and all that other fun stuff then turn around and smack him with a booming blade. Get mage slayer and that caster is going to be so scared and pissed.

tieren
2016-06-28, 09:29 AM
I'm working one now thats going to be a OotA paladin 8/fey patron warlock (forest gnome).

Between the racial advantage on int saves against magic, the aura giving resistance to magic damage, the patron beguiling defenses, and some key invocations as noted above hes going to be a cool little mage basher.

I'm going pact of the tome for a SAD CHa based character for his casting and melee combat (shillelagh). Hardest part is getting the mage slayer feat with the ASI's I need for warcaster and boosting Cha.

I'm really looking forward to misty stepping up behind a mage and repelling blast him all the way to my fighters in the scrum.

Gastronomie
2016-06-28, 09:49 AM
With Bladelocks, casting Darkness on your own weapon and proceeding to engage in melee range with an enemy caster has always been an absolutely crippling move.

Dispel Magic is a thing, but not all enemies have it, and even if he did, if your Warlock level is high, it might require a save. And regardless of whether the dispelling works or fails, wasting a turn is good enough.

Santra
2016-06-28, 12:09 PM
Quick reminder that Bards get to add half their proficiency bonus to counterspell checks due to Jack of All Trades.

Socratov
2016-06-28, 12:20 PM
Quick reminder that Bards get to add half their proficiency bonus to counterspell checks due to Jack of All Trades.

why settle for half proficiency if you can expertise?Nope, apparently it's an Int check without a skill. Changed the text

Still a wizard will do it better in general (if the bard doesn't use his expertise on arcana), due to having int for a main stat, the opportunity for taking proficiency for a +11 modifier, but only for an abjurer. regular wizards will have to make do with a max of +5.

However, the bard can't take proficiency but has Jack of All trades, and if you take a lore bard with counterspell and who takes a bit of int, and take jack's half proficiency he could end up with at least a +3 (if int=10/11) and better for the int bonus (for whatever he puts in it, though it will be at the cost of con and/or dex) to a maximum of +8.

That said, in my catch all post there is now an entry for the lore bard (seeng how a valor bard lacks the ways to make the save really stick)

Thank you Santra, you remembered me of an important piece of game mechanics that makes for the best mage hunter of the three I posted. I guess Shneeky was right: the most formidable enemy for a wizard truly is a bard. Imagine that...

Slipperychicken
2016-06-28, 12:36 PM
why settle for half proficiency if you can expertise?

Because counterspell calls for a flat ability check and not a skill.

Socratov
2016-06-28, 12:48 PM
Because counterspell calls for a flat ability check and not a skill.

Oh, imagine that, now I'm left puzzled why I thought it was an arcana check... Still changes nothing about the bard being awesome and all. Maybe even more so.

JellyPooga
2016-06-30, 07:33 AM
To be fair, 5ed Bards come pretty close to being the best...well, anything, really. They're edged out by the true specialist classes/builds (e.g. Warlocks are better marathon-casters, PM/GWM-Fighters are better in melee, etc.), but pretty much whatever a Bard want to be good at, he'll be about as competent as any other Class as well as being average-to-good at pretty much everything else.

For a Mage Slayer build, Lore Bard is an excellent and perhaps the best choice;
- The additional magical secrets is invaluable, for obvious reasons, as is the additional diversity of Skills you get; having the option of have all three of Arcana, Religion and Nature on top of your more usual skill-picks of Perception, Stealth and whatever else you want, means you don't need Int to be particularly high to be decent at out-smarting non-Wizard spellslingers.
- Peerless Skill + Jack of All Trades makes Lore Bard the best Counterspellers. An Abjurer might get to add their Prof.Bonus, but a Lore Bard gets (Prof.Bonus/2)+d12; that's a different of +6 vs. (about) +9 (on average). With Glibness up, a Bard also gets advantage on his roll...
- Bards are remarkably durable over the long-haul due to having access to healing magic and Song of Rest. An elusive spellslinger who constantly teleports away will have much less time to prepare against a Bard, because that Bard doesn't need as much time to rest up and recuperate; he can be straight on the trail, healing as he goes and with Expertise in Investigation, that Bard is going to be hot on the spellcasters shoes...
- Decent weapon and armour proficiencies, good-as-a-Rogue Skill Use, decent HP and ok Save proficiencies are just icing on the cake.

So yeah, if it's a single-class build, Bard is where it's at.

For Multiclass, I'd still go with a majority Bard, but I might start as something with better Save, weapon and/or armour proficiencies; Sorcerer, Paladin and Warlock all offer some very tempting options.

Slipperychicken
2016-06-30, 09:39 AM
Oh, imagine that, now I'm left puzzled why I thought it was an arcana check... Still changes nothing about the bard being awesome and all. Maybe even more so.

Also, it's not an Int check. It uses whatever casting stat is associated with it. A bard's counterspell uses charisma, a wizard's uses intelligence, a cleric's uses wisdom, and so on.

JellyPooga
2016-06-30, 09:42 AM
A bard's counterspell uses charisma

Which, as I mention in my post, opens up one of the more...unexpected uses of the Glibness spell and makes Bards Counter/Dispellers beyond compare...

DeAnno
2016-06-30, 11:18 PM
With regards to feats, your text is a little deceptive. Anything that helps you kill things faster will be of great use to you, especially stuff that synergizes with novas. Alert especially merits mention since fighting a spellcaster turns into rocket tag a lot. Beyond that for a Martial GWM/Sharpshooter/etc are very important so you can kill the spellcaster quickly and not suffer through save after save.

Socratov
2016-06-30, 11:31 PM
Also, it's not an Int check. It uses whatever casting stat is associated with it. A bard's counterspell uses charisma, a wizard's uses intelligence, a cleric's uses wisdom, and so on.

Yes, Though you need to take Lorebard for it (or wait for counterspell at lvl 10) seeing how Counterspell is not actually on the bard spell list.

MrStabby
2016-07-01, 04:21 AM
Which, as I mention in my post, opens up one of the more...unexpected uses of the Glibness spell and makes Bards Counter/Dispellers beyond compare...

Unexpected? I think that winning on spell ability checks like telekinesis and counterspell is the most common use of glibness I have seen.

I am also a bit nervous of builds that need time before a fight to cast spells. Spellcasters with access to divination spells and alarms and wards will know you are coming. Even a caster like a druid may have animal sentinels watching out and raising the alarm (and from low levels can drop conjure animals well before anyone gets in counterspell range). It becomes a battle to find out who can surprise whom.

JellyPooga
2016-07-01, 04:33 AM
Unexpected? I think that winning on spell ability checks like telekinesis and counterspell is the most common use of glibness I have seen.

Unexpected because improving your arcane ability is not the intended use of the spell; it's supposed to be a spell to boost your powers of persuasion. The fact that it's also an arcane buff is an unintended side-effect.


I am also a bit nervous of builds that need time before a fight to cast spells. Spellcasters with access to divination spells and alarms and wards will know you are coming. Even a caster like a druid may have animal sentinels watching out and raising the alarm (and from low levels can drop conjure animals well before anyone gets in counterspell range). It becomes a battle to find out who can surprise whom.

And who's going to get that surprise? The Wizard or Druid who can't see, divine or otherwise find the Non-Detectioned, Stealth Expertised, Invisible, Charmed-the-Guards Bard OR said Bard? Bards, despite their stereotypical image, are remarkably hard to pin-down when they don't want to be found.

Socratov
2016-07-01, 05:09 AM
Unexpected because improving your arcane ability is not the intended use of the spell; it's supposed to be a spell to boost your powers of persuasion. The fact that it's also an arcane buff is an unintended side-effect.



And who's going to get that surprise? The Wizard or Druid who can't see, divine or otherwise find the Non-Detectioned, Stealth Expertised, Invisible, Charmed-the-Guards Bard OR said Bard? Bards, despite their stereotypical image, are remarkably hard to pin-down when they don't want to be found.

when you think about it, they have the best ways to meddle with minds, both mundane and magical, they have an excuse for traveling around to odin knows where, and have 9th lvl spells, as well as more skills then most classes can shake a stick at (plus acouple of them expertised). I now conclude that every bard is a spy until proventortured otherwise.

Edit:

by the way a couple of nights ago I found a fun use for the message cantrip: you basically act like Na'Vi fro the Legend of Zelda or sing a mental song that gets so stuck in your head that you go insane. back then it worked wonders in breaking a werewolf that enjoyed physical torture to gain information. Just cast it over and over again. the fun part: unless you share it nobody will see the torture happen except for someone pointing at somene while whispering/humming along and that person compeltely breaking down. Also, apart from countering the spell and magical silence (plus the usual thin sheet of lead nad thick stone walls) there is no defence against it.