Sorceror?

[DanShive]

QUESTION!

I am a failure at playing Dungeons and Dragons, but I do recall that Sorcery is a class that essentially suggests a character was born with magical prowess. If Nale is a sorcerer, does it not stand to reason that Elan would be capable of sorcery as well? Or am I totally mistaken?
I don't know if that qualifies as spoiler or not, but I figured I 'd best not risk it.

[SavageWombat]

Bards and sorcerors use the same basic spell-casting mechanism.

[RedScholarGypsy]

I haven't had my hands on a PHB for a while now, mainly relying on SRD and my memory, but it all depends on the flavor of the campaign. It could be a type of magical genetic inheritence, but given the disparities of the nature of the twins, spiritually/mystically speaking they are direct opposites, and thus it'd be unlikely Elan would geneticly be a sorc. In fact, he almost became a Wizard instead, though V's reaction dissuaded him.

Thats aid, in the RAW, you can choose any class so long as there's no alignment conflict. Sorc has no prereqs, so yea, he could, and may end up doing so.

[MReav]

There are plenty of people with innate sorcerous talent (damn xenophiliac lecherous dragons), but a lot of them are first level commoners. It's assumed that sorcerers are the ones that refine their talents. So Elan might have Sorcerous potential, but even he knows enough game mechanics to know that multiclassing into sorcerer would be a suboptimal choice.

[DraPrime]

Even though sorcery is something you're born with, anyone can take a level in it. ANYONE! That makes the whole "something you're born with" thing meaningless.

[darkninjaoflight]

Any character can become a sorcerer. It just involves finding the magical power within to do it (i.e. gaining a sorcerer level, the same way as you gain a fighter or wizard level). Some say that it's a genetic ability (blood of the dragons) but that's just for flavor purposes and even in the D&D world it's not considered fact (as in, a sorcerer might say that he/she is gifted with the blood of dragons, but others might scoff at the idea).

In Nale's case though, the reason he has sorcerer levels is so he can cast charisma-based arcane spells without taking the "weak" levels in bard (instead going for a multi-class combo that does all the things a bard does without the actual bard levels). That's it. Him being a sorcerer was more about "not being a bard" than it was about him and Elan having magical blood.
In any case, Elan would still need to take a level in sorcerer to cast sorcerer spells (which he pretty much already has with his bardic magic) so it really wouldn't do much for him. I think. Then again, it still might be interesting to see. Who knows.

[kpenguin]

Well, kind of. Both of them are spontaneous casters, but get their ability to cast spells from different sources. Sorcerers gain their spell-casting ability from a magical ancestor, usually but not always a dragon. Bards, however, gain their magic from their connection to their art (music, dancing, poetry, whatever) and draw their magic from the heart.

Back to the OP question: while Nale and Elan share the same ancestors, it is not a sure thing to have sorcerous skills simply from having magical ancestors. Nale has manifested spell-casting ability, while Elan hasn't.

[DanShive]

Holy cow--I started a thread and actually got REAL, INTELLIGENT ANSWERS. I must be in some kind of bizarro forum; this rarely happens to me outside of my own realm :smalleek:

Thanks for the replies and insights! I do have one more question, however; was it really necessary for me to mark my question with the "spoiler" tag? I want to abide by the forum rules, but I don't know if Nale being a sorcerer and Elan's brother qualifies at this point.

[kpenguin]

Boy, a bunch of people posted while I was thinking/typing. In response to the "taking a level in sorcerer negates the heritage thing", I like to think of taking a level in sorcerer as your heritage manifesting.

[DanShive]

Boy, a bunch of people posted while I was thinking/typing. In response to the "taking a level in sorcerer negates the heritage thing", I like to think of taking a level in sorcerer as your heritage manifesting.
I like that viewpoint, ESPECIALLY after Elan's explanation for being able to take a class in wizard. To paraphrase:

:elan: "It's retroactively assumed that Vaarsuvius has been tutoring me!"
:vaarsuvius: "WHAT?! I've done no such thing!"
:elan: "But it's presumed you have been! *wink*"
:vaarsuvius: "RAGE!"

...what? I SAID "to paraphrase" :smalltongue:

[Sage in the Playground]

Holy cow--I started a thread and actually got REAL, INTELLIGENT ANSWERS. I must be in some kind of bizarro forum; this rarely happens to me outside of my own realm :smalleek:

Thanks for the replies and insights! I do have one more question, however; was it really necessary for me to mark my question with the "spoiler" tag? I want to abide by the forum rules, but I don't know if Nale being a sorcerer and Elan's brother qualifies at this point.

Welcome to the Playground! No, its not necessary, but speculation threads must be marked Spoiler in the title.

[kpenguin]

Unfortunately, this view doesn't work so well with classes in which your're assumed to extensive training, like wizard or fighter. My idea: multiclassing sucks, fluff-wise.

[Pyrian]

It could be a type of magical genetic inheritence, but given the disparities of the nature of the twins, spiritually/mystically speaking they are direct opposites, and thus it'd be unlikely Elan would geneticly be a sorc.Heh, the whole point was that Nale and Elan are "virtually" the same class, Nale through weird multi-classing and Elan by just being a bard (and now with some buckle to his swash). While sorcerory uses the same spell list as wizardry, a sorceror's method of casting and regaining spells is far more akin to the bard.


In fact, he almost became a Wizard instead, though V's reaction dissuaded him.That, and the fact that his intelligence isn't high enough to manage the simplest cantrip, class level or no class level.


Even though sorcery is something you're born with, anyone can take a level in it. ANYONE!However, taking a level in sorceror does not necessarily guarantee you the ability to actually perform sorcery. If you don't have a charisma of at least 10, you can't cast any spells at all!

[Khantalas]

I'm almost certain that Elan has sorcerer levels, because he can cast silent spells without preparation, as observed here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0156.html).

Although I don't think that counts for anything for anyone else.

[Abbott]

Bards are spontaneous casters too. However, I don't think he's casting spells in that comic, he might simply use Excape Artist?

[jamroar]

Even though sorcery is something you're born with, anyone can take a level in it. ANYONE! That makes the whole "something you're born with" thing meaningless.

The same can be said for multiclassing into any other class beyond the first. How did you instantly master the class abilities that other PCs spent their entire 0th level apprenticeship learning?

The answer is the same: You didn't, it's retconned that you had that dormant heritage/was doing training for the class all along "off-screen", and have only now awakened your innate ability/achieved the mastery of your new class. Of course, it's better for roleplaying purposes you already know what kind of build you generally want to wind up with, roleplay it out in game,and inform and get approval from your DM several levels in advance.

[Ashtar]

Bards, as spontaneous casters, can apply metamagic feats to their spells at casting time. The only drawback is that the casting time becomes a full round action. Or for spells that take longer to cast, an extra full round action. (Source: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats )

Thus Elan, if he has the correct feats (and the level to do it) can cast Still and Silent spells without any extra preparation.

[Roderick_BR]

Even though sorcery is something you're born with, anyone can take a level in it. ANYONE! That makes the whole "something you're born with" thing meaningless.
It's more like a retcon thing, though. I think one NPC I read once was a normal guy that was training in the army, and was going to pretty much be a warrior, but that during a battle accidentally casts a shield, and from then on, he decides to enhance his abilities. The flavor just suggests that the character has some natural affinity to magic.
So, following the OotS storyline, Elan has the potential to become a sorcerer. He just need to start training.

[Quikngruvn]

Bards are spontaneous casters too. However, I don't think he's casting spells in that comic, he might simply use Excape Artist?

Check his right hand-- the blue glow means he's casting a spell. I'm guessing Animate Rope (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateRope.htm), a 1st level Bard spell.

But yeah, bards are spontaneous casters with a limited known-spell list, like sorcerers, and use Charisma as their base stat for spellcasting, also like sorcerers. They use a separate list of spells though: the bards' spell list (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/bardSpells.htm) is quite a bit shorter than the sorcerers' (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm).

[Khantalas]

Thus Elan, if he has the correct feats (and the level to do it) can cast Still and Silent spells without any extra preparation.

Only, one flaw in that theory. Bard spells cannot be enhanced by Silent Spell. Says so in the PHB.

And all Bard spells have Verbal Components, even if listed otherwise for other classes. It says so somewhere.

[Fighteer]

Only, one flaw in that theory. Bard spells cannot be enhanced by Silent Spell. Says so in the PHB.

And all Bard spells have Verbal Components, even if listed otherwise for other classes. It says so somewhere.
It says so in the SRD:


Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music).

[Smiley_]

While on the subject o bards, they are possibly the most fun class to play. You can to anything (to an extent of course). Fighting, buffing, healing, blasting, bluffing, diplomacy, sneaking, it's all there.

Also, it tends to be relatively easy to make a CE Bard/Blackguard build with insane saves, fiend summoning abilities, and sneak attack.

[lord_khaine]

you mean like, jack of many traits suck badly at them all?

[Twilight Jack]

you mean like, jack of many traits suck badly at them all?

Notice how the poster above said that Bard was a fun class to play. Sure, I could play a Wizard with a spellbook that I pored over for 95 hours, or talk the DM into letting me run CoDzilla, but sometimes it's not about that. D&D can be about more than what spells you scribed or how you optimized your build. Bards do a great many things, but none of them in such an overpowering way that you're left with only a single choice in any given situation.

Meanwhile, the CoDzilla to my left has only a single answer to any problem: "I shift to Crinos."

[Chronos]

No Silent Spell is required for Elan's escape from the tent. We just have to assume that he spoke the verbal component off-panel. Just because we often see casters speaking the name of the spell (verbal component, in the Stickworld), doesn't mean that Rich always has to show us. He might have used Still Spell (which does work for bards) with it, though (depending on how exactly the somatic component rules are implemented in Stickworld).

[Khantalas]

But there were guards standing right outside the tent.

I mean, what are their listen modifiers? Minus infinity?

[Fighteer]

But there were guards standing right outside the tent.

I mean, what are their listen modifiers? Minus infinity?
There's no rule saying that verbal components must be screamed at the top of your lungs.

[chibibar]

In my roleplaying, verbal component can be a whisper. It is verbal, you don't have to shout like mad (like Dragonball Z style)

[David Argall]

Now first thing to remember is that this is a comic, and we derive our rules from our conclusions. Elan in this comic is to escape, then realize he wants to remain a prisoner. Therefore he is going to get out of the ropes and any rules that say he can't are temporarily[?] rewritten to allow him to do so in the most plot convenient manner. Whether he could legally manage it is simply academic. We like to pay considerable respect to the rules, but they are simply not binding when they get in the way.

On the point of sorcerers and the source of their power, D&D makes no definite answer. Dragon ancestry is simply a popular theory in the D&D world that explains a number of cases, but by no means all. So our sorcerer suspects, and/or is suspected of having, dragon ancestry, but this may not be the only source, or even a source at all. Those who know Nale is a sorcerer will likely suspect Elan could become a sorcerer, but are not shocked that he has not.

[holywhippet]

Isn't the dragon disciple prestige class supposedly to let bards/sorcerers make better use of their draconic ancestry? http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm

Yes, any PC can take a level in sorcerer but my impression is it's just a case of them happening to have dragon blood in them. How else would they do it? Roll a dice to see if you have a particular ancestry.

[Chronos]

Paladins have the same sort of problem, incidentally. According to the PHB (paraphrased), "Nobody can choose to become a paladin. Paladins are called. A person can only choose whether to follow that call.". Well, apparently, anyone who's Lawful Good, or who might ever become Lawful Good, is called, because any player can just choose at any time to multiclass to paladin.

[Borris]

No, no, no. Not every Lawful Good character receives the calling to become a paladin. But if you want to multiclass as one later, then you can choose to have been called. If you take a level of paladin, then it's presumed that you did receive the call.

[Fighteer]

Yes, the alternative is to have everyone who wants to play a particular class make some kind of random roll to see if they are "called" or have "sorcerous talents". Since it's obviously ridiculous to deny a player the chance to play a particular class based on a dice roll, one assumes that any PC who wishes to do so has already met those prerequisites.

[DSCrankshaw]

Yes, the alternative is to have everyone who wants to play a particular class make some kind of random roll to see if they are "called" or have "sorcerous talents". Since it's obviously ridiculous to deny a player the chance to play a particular class based on a dice roll, one assumes that any PC who wishes to do so has already met those prerequisites.
It's not that different from the fact that when you're building your character, you can make him whatever you want... you even get to choose what race your character is. Why is it so unreasonable to say that if you want him to take a certain class, he must have whatever quality it is that makes him capable of taking that class? Sure, it's retconned, but it's your character, make him whatever you want. If you want to make it believable, roleplay it that way.

Anyway, bards serve two primary purposes: party face and buffer. They do both of these fairly well. It's just that they have so many other skills, people think they should be good at all these things. That's simply not the case. They aren't going to be good fighters or casters without prestige class help: Dashing Swordsman or something which actually exists to boost fighting, or Sublime Chord for expanded casting ability.

[Fawkes]

Ooh, a thread by THE Dan Shive. I'm starstruck.

Is this what you've been doing instead of updating EGS?:smallamused:

[Shatteredtower]

I was under the impression that Mr. Shive was taking something of a retraining sabbatical. Please pardon me if I'm mistaken. I just know that I've found his filler efforts of late educational, even if I still can't draw to save my life.


Isn't the dragon disciple prestige class supposedly to let bards/sorcerers make better use of their draconic ancestry? In a sense, yes. Unfortunately, the class doesn't really contribute much to a spellcaster. It actually offers more to a 4th level barbarian/1st level bard than a 5th level sorcerer. The Strength increase means little to the latter, while the +2 Charisma bonus doesn't come until the very end of the class' progression, by which time your sorcerer is still casting spells as a 5th level caster (with seven bonus spell slots of levels 0 to 2) in a 15th level campaign. Meanwhile, the barbarian is 4 points behind on BAB, but that's almost balanced out by the additional +4 Strength bonus to attack rolls, coupled with the additional +4 to +6 on damage rolls.

The breath weapon is a disturbingly weak power. I like flavour, but 6d6 hp of energy damage once per day at 15th level makes you wonder why you didn't just stick to the sorcerer class. I mean, the breath weapon doesn't kick in for you until your character is 8th level (sorcerer 5/dragon disciple 2), when it would only do 2d6 hp of damage, while an 8th level sorcerer would be able to hurl at least five 8d6 fireballs per day, at least eight if he decides to use his 4th level spell slots as well.

I love the concept, but I think it needs a lot of beefing up. :smallfrown:

[kpenguin]

Meh. If you want to be a more draconic themed sorcerer, just some draconic heritage feats.

[dragoncmd]

There are plenty of people with innate sorcerous talent (damn xenophiliac lecherous dragons), but a lot of them are first level commoners. It's assumed that sorcerers are the ones that refine their talents. So Elan might have Sorcerous potential, but even he knows enough game mechanics to know that multiclassing into sorcerer would be a suboptimal choice.
Elan knows something?

[BRC]

Elan knows something?
the family recipie for shish-kabobs, and the fate suffered by the nameless who say "Go, I'll hold them off"

[Midnight Lurker]

The way I think of it, sorcerous talent can manifest in a number of different ways, or be guided along a number of different paths. Sorcerer class being one, bard, hexblade (Complete Warrior), warmage (Complete Arcane), and spellthief (Complete Adventurer) being others. All share the ability to spontaneously cast arcane spells, but they all have their own takes on the subject.

[kpenguin]

I don't think that the fluff agrees with you. Sorcerers have raw innate magical power. Bards gain magic from their heart and their music. Warmages and Duskblades undergo specialized training. I'll need to look up on Spellthieves and Hexblades. Even though they all share spontaneous spellcasting, they gain it from different sources.

[Midnight Lurker]

Hexblades, at least, are born rather than made. From the fluff description, it sounds like sorcery filtered through an extremely unpleasant sort of mind with a martial bent.

[mikeejimbo]

Heh, the whole point was that Nale and Elan are "virtually" the same class, Nale through weird multi-classing and Elan by just being a bard (and now with some buckle to his swash). While sorcerory uses the same spell list as wizardry, a sorceror's method of casting and regaining spells is far more akin to the bard.


Quite right, and don't forget that Nale also focuses on Illusion and Enchantment spells, which make up much of the Bard's spell list.

[RobbyPants]

It could be explained two ways:

Elan hasn't unlocked his latent powers yet.
Nale multi-classed in. Then it was retroactively assumed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html) that he had the ability all along. :smalltongue:

[Jimmy Discordia]

I know this isn't RAW, but in my campaigns it's always been a house rule that if your first level wasn't in sorcerer, you can never take any levels in it. Kind of a counterpart to the paladin/monk's multiclassing restriction. Sorcerers can multiclass as much as they want, but if they aren't showing sorcerous talent by the time they start adventuring, they're never going to.

I give sorcerers a couple of cool extra abilities and unique feats to offset this relatively minor restriction, but that's kind of beyond the scope of this discussion.