PDA

View Full Version : Houserule suggestions



Dhavaer
2007-06-30, 10:16 PM
I've been working out a homebrew world (yes, again) and I've put together a few houserules with regards to classes. Here's the list of classes present in the world, and specific houserules related to them:

Barbarian
Bard
Cleric (No shield or heavy armour proficiency, no self-only buffs)
Druid (Shapeshifting variant)
Fighter
Ranger
Rogue
Sorcerer
Psion
Psychic Warrior
Soulknife

Hexblade
Swashbuckler
Ninja
Scout
Warlock
Warmage
Favoured Soul

Beguiler
Dragon Shaman
Knight

Binder
Shadowcaster (mysteries are /encounter, not /day)
Crusader
Swordsage
Warblade

OA Samurai

More generally, all the casters (not manifesters, and not classes with magic-like abilities but no spell slots) use the Vitalising Spell Point Variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm#spellPointVariantVitalizing).
All casters and manifesters use Charisma to determine save DCs and spell effects (such as the attack and damage bonus of the thunderlance spell).
No multiclassing penalty.
Planar Ally and Planar Binding spells have a casting time of 10 hours. Gate has a casting time of 10 minutes if used to call a creature.
Any outsider on the Prime must make a Will save (DC 10 + HD) every hour or be fatigued. If fatigued, they must make a Will save every minute or be exhausted. If exhausted, they must make a Will save every round or be returned to their home plane.

The last two rules represent how hostile the Prime is to outsiders in this cosmology.

So, is there anything dramatically out of balance with these houserules?

Matthew
2007-06-30, 10:20 PM
Looks okay to me, but why take out the Cleric's Heavy Armour and Shield Proficiency? They'll just end up with Mithral versions, won't they?

Skjaldbakka
2007-06-30, 10:21 PM
1st- there is a homebrew forum that is much more appropriate for this topic.

2nd- vitalizing variant + false life and/or cure X wounds. I don't think I need much more explanation here.

I like using SP, w/o the vitalizing variant, and then instead of recovering all sp over night, you recover your 2Xlevel in sp overnight. This discourages using your best spells all the time, while leaving the option to occasionally whip out the can o'awesomeness.

Emperor Tippy
2007-06-30, 10:21 PM
I'm assuming that you are rebalancing monsters as well?

Dhavaer
2007-06-30, 10:22 PM
Looks okay to me, but why take out the Cleric's Heavy Armour and Shield Proficiency?

It doesn't make a great deal of sense to me that a class that is intended to be at best a secondary warrior is equally proficient at wearing armour to the actual warrior classes (Fighter, Samurai, Knight, Crusader, etc).

Emperor Tippy
2007-06-30, 10:24 PM
1st- there is a homebrew forum that is much more appropriate for this topic.

Not really. He wants advice about rules changes. That fits a lot more in gaming than in homebrew. No custom creations are offered by the OP.

Matthew
2007-06-30, 10:24 PM
Fair enough (though it makes good sense to me they would), but why include Shields, rather than just Tower Shields?

Jack Mann
2007-06-30, 10:55 PM
Have you removed native outsiders from this setting? If you have them, what happens when they fail their will save while exhausted?

ZeroNumerous
2007-06-30, 10:57 PM
But armor proficiency is in no way the same as being a secondary or even tertiary warrior. BAB and fighting ability determine your place as a warrior, and the Cleric's buffs easily step him up to primary melee ability.

My own suggestions would be this: Find a Fighter fix and a Paladin fix(I highly suggest Bears With Lasers Fighter fix or Fax_Celestia's Paladin fix) and drop the pre-existing fighter/paladin to NPC levels. Or, better yet, just drop them entirely.

Dhavaer
2007-06-30, 11:07 PM
Have you removed native outsiders from this setting? If you have them, what happens when they fail their will save while exhausted?

They're removed, except for planetouched. Planetouched are humanoids with the [Planetouched] subtype.


But armor proficiency is in no way the same as being a secondary or even tertiary warrior.

No, but they do represent martial training, which is something a primary caster wouldn't have much of by default. (They could have more, but that would involve spending extra time on it - spending feats)


BAB and fighting ability determine your place as a warrior, and the Cleric's buffs easily step him up to primary melee ability.

Without Divine Favour, Divine Power and Righteous Might, the Cleric's potential in melee is severely curtailed.


My own suggestions would be this: Find a Fighter fix and a Paladin fix(I highly suggest Bears With Lasers Fighter fix or Fax_Celestia's Paladin fix) and drop the pre-existing fighter/paladin to NPC levels. Or, better yet, just drop them entirely.

I did drop the Paladin in favour of the Crusader.

Matthew
2007-06-30, 11:14 PM
Hmmn. I guess it depends how you think of the Cleric Class and what it means to be proficient in Armour and Shields. Why not use the Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) if you're going for a less Martial Divine Full Spell Caster?

[Edit] Have you taken a look at the Spontaneous Divine Spell Casting Variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm)?

Dhavaer
2007-06-30, 11:17 PM
Hmmn. I guess it depends how you think of the Cleric Class and what it means to be proficient in Armour and Shields. Why not use the Cloistered Cleric if you're going for a less Martial Divine Full Spell Caster?

I didn't want to make the cleric a skill-monkey.


[Edit] Have you taken a look at the Spontaneous Divine Spell Casting Variant?

Yes, and Spell Points are spontaneous enough for me.

Matthew
2007-06-30, 11:21 PM
So, what kind of Clerics are you expecting to see? I'm thinking at Level 1 they're going to be Scale Mail and Spear types, with some slight delay on Heavy Armour before they can afford Mithral versions.

[Edit] It's not really the spontanity I had in mind, but the limited Spell access [i.e. I notice you're missing Wizards off your list, but keeping Sorcerers, which suggested to me you might prefer limited Spell access for this game]

Dhavaer
2007-07-01, 04:59 AM
Studded leather or chain shirt with a longspear, if they expect to do a lot of fighting. I'm expecting clerics to go heavier on casting than fighting, though.

I might use spontaneous divine casting. Seems like a good way to keep things simpler.

I was also thinking of increasing the Bard to a d8 hit die.

Reinboom
2007-07-01, 05:25 AM
Also noticing the no wizards, your most quick progression spellcasters are divine it seams.
May I recommend, also, small alts to certain classes? I for one always use slightly modified monk and sorcerers. http://pifro.com/dnd/?Class=monk&FClass=Modified and http://pifro.com/dnd/?Class=sorcerer&FClass=Modified
Which includes: 1 extra spell known for each spell level for the sorcerer. As the dynamic, spontaneous, spellcaster.. it becomes annoying to gain your next spell level with only 1 spell to use with it, in my opinion, and kind of defeats part of the purpose. I also provide more skill points -- however this is only as a contrast to the other options. I shall always emphasize now for either giving the sorcerer the favored soul's spells known list or upping their's by +1.
The Monk modified is a "full BAB, unarmed prof, and small skill boost." adds.

What's your hold on spell sources? PHB + SC?

-- oh, and the mithral... and glassteel, and other similar materials is a reality. If you wish to hold the cleric away from overcoming the fighter, I would drop their proficiency down to just light. There's feats, after all, to allow them to do more if they really want to.

Blackbrrd
2007-07-01, 05:26 AM
Just remove three spells from the cleric spell list/ domains:

Divine favour
Divine Power
Righteous Might.


Without it the cleric is stuck with less melee attack power than the primary fighters, but are still ok at tanking, spellcasting and the like. The other self-buff are ok, but not unbalancing.

(And when we are talking about this, I am playing in a 11th level party and the 11th level straight fighter is still the one doing the most melee damage, thanks to a two-handed weapon and power attack. We are only using core+dragonlance though.)

Dhavaer
2007-07-01, 06:35 AM
Please, people, even if you don't want to read the whole thread, at least read the OP, okay?


Just remove three spells from the cleric spell list/ domains:

Divine favour
Divine Power
Righteous Might.


Without it the cleric is stuck with less melee attack power than the primary fighters, but are still ok at tanking, spellcasting and the like. The other self-buff are ok, but not unbalancing.

Self-only buffs have been removed from the cleric list.

Skjaldbakka
2007-07-01, 06:37 AM
I think he was trying to say that self-only buffs except for the ones above should be fine.

Also


I didn't want to make the cleric a skill-monkey.

Cloistered Cleric does not make clerics into skill-monkeys, it gives them more skill points. They still don't get a good class skill list. I for one am in favor of clerics being knowledgeable. Clerics really need to have concentration, knowledge religion, and spellcraft- just to be clerics. They get 2+int skill points base.

Reinboom
2007-07-01, 06:13 PM
Please, people, even if you don't want to read the whole thread, at least read the OP, okay?

Did and did, going with the flow of my own perceptions though. :smallyuk:

For just what's presented.. I see nothing of true issue, though removing all self-buff only spells feels icky to me, I would just go with dropping the three mentioned. Though, first, what is the full extent of "self-only buffs"? Does this include effects such as antimagic field? Also, looking through the PHB, the only self-only buffs that I can see immediately are things like comprehend languages or ethereal jaunt. Though I probably missed some.

Bassetking
2007-07-01, 06:24 PM
Dhavier: Have you considered the Monk's Capstone ability? That being that a 20th level monk is considered an Outsider, even on his native plane?

Dhavaer
2007-07-01, 09:18 PM
Though, first, what is the full extent of "self-only buffs"?

Divine Favour, Divine Power, Entropic Shield and Righteous Might.


Dhavier: Have you considered the Monk's Capstone ability? That being that a 20th level monk is considered an Outsider, even on his native plane?

I don't think I need to, there are no Monks to get the ability.

Starsinger
2007-07-01, 09:37 PM
Cloistered Cleric does not make clerics into skill-monkeys, it gives them more skill points. They still don't get a good class skill list. I for one am in favor of clerics being knowledgeable. Clerics really need to have concentration, knowledge religion, and spellcraft- just to be clerics. They get 2+int skill points base.

Isn't Knowledge (All) considered to be a strength of the wizard class? I mean, at the very least, Cloistered Clerics are better than bards and wizards at knowing everything. Since they have Lore (bardic knowledge) to trump wizards, and knowledge (all) to trump bards.

As for spontaneous divine casting, I find that it makes Clerics and Druids less broken, since a big deal of their magic power is "You own a splat book, I know all the spells in it!" I mean, wizards have the theoretically limitation of scrolls and spell books. Besides that, I think spontaneous casting in general, is less broken since you can't "I can fix whatever the problem is tomorrow." If your character can fix the problem, he can do it today (unless out of slots), or not at all.

Matthew
2007-07-01, 09:39 PM
Yeah, I'm a big fan of the Spontaneous Divine Spell Casting Variant, I have to say. Still have to be careful, but it's a step in the right direction for me.

Jannex
2007-07-01, 10:23 PM
Isn't Knowledge (All) considered to be a strength of the wizard class? I mean, at the very least, Cloistered Clerics are better than bards and wizards at knowing everything. Since they have Lore (bardic knowledge) to trump wizards, and knowledge (all) to trump bards.

Um...? Bards get all Knowledge skills as class skills too. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm

Jack Mann
2007-07-02, 12:28 AM
I do agree that clerics should probably get at least 4+Int skill points, if you want them to act as spell-casting priests. Otherwise, clerics with 10 or less Int are unlikely to take any ranks in knowledge (religion), since spellcraft and concentration are so much more important for them. I'd consider giving them some benefits (possibly similar to organization benefits) for knowledge (religion), to represent their devotion to their church.

Dhavaer
2007-07-02, 12:35 AM
Maybe there should be a minimum of 4 + Int skill points for all classes? I'm pretty sure I've heard that suggested before.

Starsinger
2007-07-02, 12:46 AM
Um...? Bards get all Knowledge skills as class skills too. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm

I coulda swore Bards were missing some knowledges, well that'll teach me to open my big mouth before I look at things...


Maybe there should be a minimum of 4 + Int skill points for all classes? I'm pretty sure I've heard that suggested before.

Yes, arguably, the only class who can survive 2+Int are psions and wizards, and that's because they're int based anyways. Although a sorcerer with more skill points needs a bigger skill list, Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int) aren't enough... and of course, maybe some more charisma skills wouldn't hurt.

Dhavaer
2007-07-02, 12:48 AM
Although a sorcerer with more skill points needs a bigger skill list, Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int) aren't enough... and of course, maybe some more charisma skills wouldn't hurt.

Intimidate and Use Magic Device, maybe?

Starsinger
2007-07-02, 12:51 AM
Use magic device is nice, and the flexibility of being able to use cleric/druid/what have you, stuff from wands helps sorcerers be more flexible than your typical sorcerer. Someone I know, who exactly it is I can't recall, gives Sorcerers the warlock list, but i don't know off hand how much different that is from the sorcerer list.

Dhavaer
2007-07-02, 12:54 AM
Someone I know, who exactly it is I can't recall, gives Sorcerers the warlock list, but i don't know off hand how much different that is from the sorcerer list.

Disguise, Intimidate, Jump, Know (planes), Know (religion), Sense Motive and UMD are the skills Warlocks get and Sorcerers don't.

Leon
2007-07-02, 03:17 AM
Have you removed native outsiders from this setting? If you have them, what happens when they fail their will save while exhausted?

Home to bed

Looks quite good, the spell point system is interesting - reminds me somewhat of the True20 games ive played where some spells cast would tire you

Blackbrrd
2007-07-05, 12:32 PM
Please, people, even if you don't want to read the whole thread, at least read the OP, okay?

Self-only buffs have been removed from the cleric list.

As Skjaldbakka said, what you write and what people understand might not be the same thing.

Self-only buffs could mean personal spells for I knew, and that would include spells like Invisibility Purge, Comprehend Languages, etc... That is why I specified the three spells that make the Cleric close to game breaking compared to other melee characters...

What about giving 1 extra skill skill point to all characters?

About the class skill lists, I wouldn't expand on them, but maybe let every player choose two skills they could increase at normal cost, but to the cross class rank limit. Half-class skills or something?

For instance, my fighter would get 3*4=12 skill points at 1st level, and be able to choose spot and tumble as half-class skills (or whatever you would like to call them). So, he could take
Spot 2 ranks
Tumble 2 ranks
Climb 4 ranks
Swim 4 ranks