A question about Manga and Comics

[Cade]

First off, I'm mostly an American comic book reader. While I have read a few
manga, (mostly at the request of my friends), I usually just stick to my comics.

I mostly buy in trade paperbacks from the local Barnes & Nobel, and I've
noticed something strange in the comics section of the store.

There is maybe a 5:1 ratio of Manga to Comics in the store, so that while it is hard to find anything worthwhile in comics, there are often duplicate series of Manga included on the shelves. Also, among all my friends, no one reads comics, everyone is into Manga.

So, my question is: Why is it Manga is more popular, at least with Barnes & Nobel and a lot of people I know? It doesn't seem to be inherently better, or less nerdy. Am I wrong? Is it better, and why? Or is it just a fad?

Also, after I catch up with the Marvel Ultimates Imprint, I wouldn't mind knowing what a good real entry point to Manga would be.

[Rob Knotts]

I can't realy recommend any specific title, but the (apparent) popularity is easy to explain. Manga are written in a much different manner than american comic books. Whereas a single american trade might contain full epic story, manga volumes tend to be more like chapters in a larger story.

Getting into a manga series is kind of like getting into a long series of books for a fantasy or sci-fi story: you can enjoy each seperate entry, but you'll get the most out of it if you read every volume. Manga artists never rush in telling thier stories, so manga titles can be really rewarding for people who have the patience to put into collecting and reading an entire series.

That's why manga sections in stores seem so much more prominent - the volumes for just one title may take up an entire shelf, and of course any major chain is going to want a few copies of each volume for multiple customers. This is also why manga have such a specfic format - the small, digest volumes printed in black&white make it much more financially practical to publish a large number of volumes for single title.

[Ashdate]

Actually a lot of it has to do with the fact that before manga, bookstores like Chapters didn't really carry comic books. The reason? There wasn't any to carry!

You see, back in the dark ages comic books were a collectors item, almost first. Comic companies, hoping to please collectors, decided that reprinting their stories in a graphic novel form would be bad for those who shelled out the money the first time, so they were always very reluctant to create trades.

Well, long story short, a wave of manga hit America, and given that it was sold in cheap and SMALL doses, it was perfect for a bookstore. The big guns (Marvel and DC) have pretty much gone full blast with graphic novels now however, so they're popping up in bigger quantities.

It's true what Rob Knotts says about them being told differently, but it's not really about all about the story; there are many other things, such as genre (romance comics for instance, died in American comics I believe around the time of the comic code, but I could very well be wrong), and even presentation.

I don't think manga is any better than American comics. In fact, I find American comics a lot better; The trend with Japanese comics to bog a story down into 40 volumes really bugs me. I find very few Japanese comics really 'think big' either. For every brilliant "Eagle: the Making of a Japanese-American President" there's a hundred books which don't get the fact that their story stopped being interesting once they introduced another ultimate villain/past romance/whatever. I'm not even going to get into the stereotypes.

If you can find it, I definitely recommend Eagle, like I mentioned above. It's great political drama stuff. "Monster" is also a good one. I'd avoid any 'shonen' book, especially the 'romantic stuff' written by guys because they're pretty much solid crap. Some shojo stuff is pretty good (although the only one I get is 'Hot Gimmick').

Also, don't forget about the terrific American comics out here! Stuff like Y: The Last Man, Runaways, Scott Pilgrim, The Sandman, and Top 10 will put your average Japanese comic book to shame.

- Eddie

[Rob Knotts]

It's true what Rob Knotts says about them being told differently, but it's not really about all about the story; there are many other things, such as genre (romance comics for instance, died in American comics I believe around the time of the comic code, but I could very well be wrong), and even presentation.Remember kids, the only american trades carried by big bookstore chains are superhero books!:smalltongue:

[Ashdate]

Remember kids, your local comic book store is awesome, and will carry all those great superhero books (Invincible, Ultimate Spider-Man, JSA) along with those other ones!

Also, Neil Gaiman's The Sandman is better than anything, and you can probably find that at a big book store.

- Eddie

[kpenguin]

Geez, that sounds almost exactly like my Barnes and Nobles. I often head over to the comics section, partly to look at the comics but mostly because the D&D books are over there, and I have to say, manga is a huge part of the shelving. There seems to be a fad with manga and everything Japanese going on. I feel sad when my friends want to play ninjas (but not samarai, thank goodness) in my traditional medieval games simply because of their Naruto-craze (and don't let me start on Naruto. What kind of ninja wears orange?:smallfurious:).

[Rob Knotts]

Remember kids, your local comic book store is awesome, and will carry all those great superhero books (Invincible, Ultimate Spider-Man, JSA) along with those other ones!You're absolutely right, I was just confining my comments to big chains because the OP mentioned one in his example:smallwink:

[Invisible Queen]

Remember kids, manga isn't a genre any more than comics are. In fact, it's just another word for comics. Well, specifically comics produced by Japanese culture. The one thing they all have in common with each other is that they consist of sequential art that tells a story.

That's just in case you thought any stereotypes were true.

[thehothead]

But manga is also an art style. Many people seem to like manga for the simple reason that it is Manga. That is one of the problems that people who dislike manga have with it.

[Beleriphon]

I can't realy recommend any specific title, but the (apparent) popularity is easy to explain. Manga are written in a much different manner than american comic books. Whereas a single american trade might contain full epic story, manga volumes tend to be more like chapters in a larger story.

This is known among most mainstream American comic readers as decompressed storytelling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decompression_%28comics%29). There are claims that using decompression is a function of lazy writing, or the inability to meet deadlines so a bunch of filler is written. Now, this doesn't mean that you can't take a few issues to tell a story, or even dozen of issues to tell a complete story, but the general trend that seems to be cropping up is to take an absurdly long time to tell a story that could be done in half the issues, or even page count, for the sake of more issues or page count. There are also supporters of decompressed storytelling because they say if focuses on character development. Manga books tend to follow this trend, at least in my experience and I'm sure there are examples that don't.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

The problem is often lumping manga together like they do. I've enjoyed some manga, but unlike a lot of people I know, I don't read only manga because I have a rep to keep about loving all things manga/anime. You know who I'm talking about, guys. Manga is not inherently any better or worse then American comics except in the case of lazy translation, which favors American.

[Closet_Skeleton]

(and don't let me start on Naruto. What kind of ninja wears orange?:smallfurious:).

A 12 year old jerk one...

The 'classic' Ninja outfit is an Americanisation anyway.

[Setra]

Out of curiosity, what makes Naruto a jerk?

[Closet_Skeleton]

Out of curiosity, what makes Naruto a jerk?

I was being lazy and using the wrong word, Sasuke is more of a Jerk.

Naruto is a brat not a jerk.

[Cade]

Geez, that sounds almost exactly like my Barnes and Nobles. I often head over to the comics section, partly to look at the comics but mostly because the D&D books are over there, and I have to say, manga is a huge part of the shelving. There seems to be a fad with manga and everything Japanese going on. I feel sad when my friends want to play ninjas (but not samarai, thank goodness) in my traditional medieval games simply because of their Naruto-craze (and don't let me start on Naruto. What kind of ninja wears orange?:smallfurious:).

Wow... That is exactly the same situation I have, down to the ninja player, making Naruto hand Symbols for every attack.

I will be checking out Eagle and possibly some others (Sandman has been on wish list a while), thank you!

[nothingclever]

So, my question is: Why is it Manga is more popular, at least with Barnes & Nobel and a lot of people I know? It doesn't seem to be inherently better, or less nerdy. Am I wrong? Is it better, and why? Or is it just a fad?

Also, after I catch up with the Marvel Ultimates Imprint, I wouldn't mind knowing what a good real entry point to Manga would be.
I think one of the most important things to say is that manga isn't just a fad because even if it's popularity has started like one it's definitely here to stay and may just get increasingly more popular in the long run.

Personally I feel manga is inherently better and less nerdy to some extent although it can be really bad too with crap like Naruto and 14 year olds boys/girls constantly saving the world as a theme. There is a ton of crappy manga however I find it is simply better in some ways that are almost universal.

One is that when I think of American comics I think of Superheroes in costumes saving the day putting crminals in prison rather than killing them which rarely happens in manga. It might but many mangas have nothing to do with corny superhero stuff. All the cheesy American gimmicks aren't there. No one is called lad or ward or whatever although I know this hasn't happened in a long time. Characters usually don't have a base of operations with futuristic technology and a silly name. They also don't give themselves special names because of their powers like Flash or Hulk or Superman. Bob is Bob and he doesn't have a million super powered friends or secret identities.

Another reason is that so many American comics have an entire world or universe where all the characters share the same place. New York seems to have more superheroes than regular people. In manga a lot of stories are stand alone or have their own universe. This stops a lot of silly stuff like having thousands of characters who could destroy the world in an instant, an infinite number of stupid x-men subdivisions and every hero/villian ever written being best buddies. There usually aren't any stupid team ups and a hell of a lot less plot holes. X-men is a perfect example. They have so many characters there is no conflict they can't easily overcome. If anyone dies it doesn't make any sense for them to stay dead cuz they have some generic healing man or someone who can somehow raise people from the dead. In manga you don't have a ton of characters with god like powers selectively using them to make the plot work and you don't have a million pissing contests between characters.

X manga character doesn't suddenly jump into Y character's world and start fighting him to see who's cooler. You also don't have as many dumb pop culture references in manga.

There's also a lot less stupid versus stuff in manga. "Leik omg Batman would like totally beat Doom." "Like he totally would not." "Like yea, prep time, durrrrrrr."

Another benefit is that everyone doesn't have at least six pack abs and look like Ronnie Coleman. Kids are allowed to look like average kids and women aren't the only ones allowed to be skinny. This includes main characters, they can miraculously look normal too.

Plus there's often a lot less lame humor. Deadpool is the perfect example of trying too hard. He uses stupid phrases like "Sphincter says what?" and repeats certain words or phrases over and over again. Having a character talk about Bea Arthur and claim she's best woman in the world when she's an extremely old virtual cripple is not funny. Saying Chimichanga five times fast isn't either. The Human Torch talking about totally "burning" someone when he says something that's supposed to sound witty while melting a person at the same isn't funny either.

Another thing that's great about manga is that characters are allowed to die without using a death as some stupid way of selling more comics or getting people to like them more when they get ressurected.

Superpowers are also very easy to avoid in manga. You can find an action packed comic about the criminal underworld or some kind of samurai manga with some historical roots that doesn't involve superpowers. People might do some amazing things but they don't shoot eye lasers.

Like this is kinda funny but it gets old after a while:
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v345/nothingclever/?action=view&current=1183311783682.jpg

[Rob Knotts]

There are claims that using decompression is a function of lazy writing, or the inability to meet deadlines so a bunch of filler is written. Now, this doesn't mean that you can't take a few issues to tell a story, or even dozen of issues to tell a complete story, but the general trend that seems to be cropping up is to take an absurdly long time to tell a story that could be done in half the issues, or even page count, for the sake of more issues or page count. There are also supporters of decompressed storytelling because they say if focuses on character development. Manga books tend to follow this trend, at least in my experience and I'm sure there are examples that don't.That's why I didn't try to recommend any manga, I dislike manga in general because of decompression. I can't condemn it, I know decompression can be a serious & admirable storytelling style (V for Vendetta comes to mind) but for the most part I don't enjoy it in comics, regardless of the country of origin. I prefer the kind of focus required for stories with space constraints (in comics) or time constraints (anime and movies).

[Beleriphon]

That's why I didn't try to recommend any manga, I dislike manga in general because of decompression. I can't condemn it, I know decompression can be a serious & admirable storytelling style (V for Vendetta comes to mind) but for the most part I don't enjoy it in comics, regardless of the country of origin. I prefer the kind of focus required for stories with space constraints (in comics) or time constraints (anime and movies).

Actully, V isn't really decompressed. Each issue had a resolution to whatever particular story element it was trying to achieve. That and when you consider that its a story as a whole, rather than an ongoing series, it read more a like a novel with pictures.

[Ashdate]

One is that when I think of American comics I think of Superheroes in costumes saving the day putting crminals in prison rather than killing them which rarely happens in manga. It might but many mangas have nothing to do with corny superhero stuff. All the cheesy American gimmicks aren't there. No one is called lad or ward or whatever although I know this hasn't happened in a long time. Characters usually don't have a base of operations with futuristic technology and a silly name. They also don't give themselves special names because of their powers like Flash or Hulk or Superman. Bob is Bob and he doesn't have a million super powered friends or secret identities.


Never heard of the Power Rangers? Your typical giant robot manga or anime is pretty much a superhero tale. The big difference is that the powers come not from the individual, but the robots/machines. Spider-Man hiding his identity is no different than Ichigo Kurosaki hiding from the world the fact he's a Soul Slayer/Death God.



Another reason is that so many American comics have an entire world or universe where all the characters share the same place. New York seems to have more superheroes than regular people. In manga a lot of stories are stand alone or have their own universe. This stops a lot of silly stuff like having thousands of characters who could destroy the world in an instant, an infinite number of stupid x-men subdivisions and every hero/villian ever written being best buddies. There usually aren't any stupid team ups and a hell of a lot less plot holes. X-men is a perfect example. They have so many characters there is no conflict they can't easily overcome. If anyone dies it doesn't make any sense for them to stay dead cuz they have some generic healing man or someone who can somehow raise people from the dead. In manga you don't have a ton of characters with god like powers selectively using them to make the plot work and you don't have a million pissing contests between characters.

Actually, pretty much the entire point of most action animes is that there are beings beyond normal men. I think you also miss the point of having all these characters in one universe: it's more profitable! You also may not like it, but teamups are FOR A FACT awesome. That's why there probably are tons of fanfics where Naruto and Sailor Moon have teamed up.

And characters with god-like powers are pretty much the entire plot of most action-type mangas.



X manga character doesn't suddenly jump into Y character's world and start fighting him to see who's cooler. You also don't have as many dumb pop culture references in manga.

This probably has more to do with that 'decompressed' storytelling thing; you can't have your already stretched plot interrupted for a pointless crossover after all. Also, there are TONS of pop culture reference in modern manga; you just don't understand them because you're not from Japan.



There's also a lot less stupid versus stuff in manga. "Leik omg Batman would like totally beat Doom." "Like he totally would not." "Like yea, prep time, durrrrrrr."

"Leik omg Kakashi would like totally beat Kenshin." "Like he totally would not." "Like yea, prep time, durrrrrrr."



Another benefit is that everyone doesn't have at least six pack abs and look like Ronnie Coleman. Kids are allowed to look like average kids and women aren't the only ones allowed to be skinny. This includes main characters, they can miraculously look normal too.

Except for the flawless faces, giant fourteen year old breasts, and blue hair.



Plus there's often a lot less lame humor. Deadpool is the perfect example of trying too hard. He uses stupid phrases like "Sphincter says what?" and repeats certain words or phrases over and over again. Having a character talk about Bea Arthur and claim she's best woman in the world when she's an extremely old virtual cripple is not funny. Saying Chimichanga five times fast isn't either. The Human Torch talking about totally "burning" someone when he says something that's supposed to sound witty while melting a person at the same isn't funny either.

I think you're starting to stretch here. I mean, comedy isn't even a mainstay of most comics. And again, there is as much lame humour in american comics as there are in manga, it's just that you're from a different culture. I bet everytime a manga character sneezes because someone has said something bad about them, groans are heard throughout Japan.



Another thing that's great about manga is that characters are allowed to die without using a death as some stupid way of selling more comics or getting people to like them more when they get ressurected.

I think the cast of Dragonball Z has been killed and resurrected more times then the entirety of American comic book history.



Superpowers are also very easy to avoid in manga. You can find an action packed comic about the criminal underworld or some kind of samurai manga with some historical roots that doesn't involve superpowers. People might do some amazing things but they don't shoot eye lasers.

I just want to stop you there. For every Cyclops in American comics, there's some 12 year old who can blow up the earth in Japanese comics. Also, most Samurai manga is about as historically accurate as my spit.

And super powers are incredibly easy to avoid in American comics too, you're just not looking. They've been around since the earliest days, in the form of war, horror, and even romance comics. The big problem was the Comic Code, which nixed a lot of the content that could be presented. Even today, you can get some great stuff that doesn't go near your average superhero, such as Stray Bullets and Y: The Last Man.


I think you've just been hypnotized by our Japanese friends. There's a LOT of comic crap in Japan. Everything we get is through a filter, which means we tend to get only the most popular stuff. I'm not saying one is better then the other, because obviously certain storytelling methods will appeal to different people, but please don't claim Japanese manga to be superior when you obviously haven't read the great American books, which you must not have if you're using Deadpool as one of your examples.

- Eddie

[Viscount Einstrauss]

To add to that, name me one manga as hilarious as The Tick. I defy you to.

[Yuki Akuma]

To add to that, name me one manga as hilarious as The Tick. I defy you to.

Jungle wa Itsumo Hare nochi Guu.

Or "Hare-Guu", if you can't be bothered to try to pronounce that.

[Gavin Sage]

I think one of the most important things to say is that manga isn't just a fad because even if it's popularity has started like one it's definitely here to stay and may just get increasingly more popular in the long run.

True enough but it has a long way to go too. Manga and anime are here to stay, how far they will go has yet to be determined. Case in point, how well did Sprited Away (by one of the best directors EVER) do in theatres compared to say any Spidey movie?


Personally I feel manga is inherently better and less nerdy to some extent although it can be really bad too with crap like Naruto and 14 year olds boys/girls constantly saving the world as a theme. There is a ton of crappy manga however I find it is simply better in some ways that are almost universal.

I fail to see the logic that the exact same thing is inherently better because it comes from Japan. Also you contradict yourself by citing there is a lot of bad manga.

To which I simply find the need to say the following: Sandman


One is that when I think of American comics I think of Superheroes in costumes saving the day putting crminals in prison rather than killing them which rarely happens in manga. It might but many mangas have nothing to do with corny superhero stuff. All the cheesy American gimmicks aren't there. No one is called lad or ward or whatever although I know this hasn't happened in a long time. Characters usually don't have a base of operations with futuristic technology and a silly name. They also don't give themselves special names because of their powers like Flash or Hulk or Superman. Bob is Bob and he doesn't have a million super powered friends or secret identities.

Have you actually read a comic book in the past twenty years and not just looked at Superdickery.com? In fact a more common complaint in comics these days is they can't tell a story with wracking up a body count.

And if you want silly, need I say perhaps..... Yu-Gi-Oh? Its a series about a bunch of children playing card games, okay more then that in the manga but honestly kids games. And I dare you to say some Yugi's hair or some of the outfits aren't outrageous.


Another reason is that so many American comics have an entire world or universe where all the characters share the same place. New York seems to have more superheroes than regular people. In manga a lot of stories are stand alone or have their own universe. This stops a lot of silly stuff like having thousands of characters who could destroy the world in an instant, an infinite number of stupid x-men subdivisions and every hero/villian ever written being best buddies. There usually aren't any stupid team ups and a hell of a lot less plot holes.

First off it is something of an overstatement that DC and Marvel are the end all and be all of American comics. Second off the number of characters active at any time fairly relatively small. It is not hard at all to actually get behind any book's particular cast at any given time. X-men has right now four books, and killed off 99.99999% of all the mutants out there. Of which one of the books is entirely dominated by new characters.

Oh and I don't know about thousands but..... DBZ


X-men is a perfect example. They have so many characters there is no conflict they can't easily overcome. If anyone dies it doesn't make any sense for them to stay dead cuz they have some generic healing man or someone who can somehow raise people from the dead. In manga you don't have a ton of characters with god like powers selectively using them to make the plot work and you don't have a million pissing contests between characters.

Again.... DBZ.

Or other rampart cases of deus ex machina/can only be challenged by my one rival type heroes. Any duel you've seen in an manga/anime between the hero and the villian who later becomes an ally, same thing.


X manga character doesn't suddenly jump into Y character's world and start fighting him to see who's cooler. You also don't have as many dumb pop culture references in manga.

You seem to think all of comic is about who can beat who. Which again to me stresses you do not in fact read comics to me.


There's also a lot less stupid versus stuff in manga. "Leik omg Batman would like totally beat Doom." "Like he totally would not." "Like yea, prep time, durrrrrrr."

This made me laugh very loudly. I can't count the "Naruto vs....." threads I've seen, they got up to him against Godzilla. Also if you want to compare fandom...... I mean I think I could just start with yaoi fan-pairings and leave it there.


Another benefit is that everyone doesn't have at least six pack abs and look like Ronnie Coleman. Kids are allowed to look like average kids and women aren't the only ones allowed to be skinny. This includes main characters, they can miraculously look normal too.


Once again..... DBZ. Such a useful example.

Now I'm sure your saying that its just one series so on and so forth. Indeed, but I can cite other examples of what makes manga silly. Like sure anime characters are skinny, so how does that skinny dude jump five stories? Or fanservice for example, something overprevalent in both but far more extreme in one then the other.

Understand I like both manga and comics, and I think you are badly maligning Western comics, mostly out of having not read any recently. Superheroes are at a basic level no different then your typical shonen material. And further more comics are not completely made up of superheroes in the MU and DCU.

Check out stuff put out by Vertigo to name one source. Its a DC imprint but often has only the most casual connection to Supes if any at all. Or get look for independent publisher stuff. Even stuff that involves superheroes can rise well above its lowest points. Watchmen for example, the quitessential adult comic book that turns superheroing on its head. Or Kingdom Come which elevates it to something mythic. Or the aforementioned Sandman which is something that I can truly say is both unique and incredible at many many levels.

[hanzo66]

Personally both Western comics and Manga have their own set of faults/cliches. However neither is inherently better than the other. It really depends on the writer of a particular story.

[nothingclever]

Never heard of the Power Rangers? Your typical giant robot manga or anime is pretty much a superhero tale. The big difference is that the powers come not from the individual, but the robots/machines. Spider-Man hiding his identity is no different than Ichigo Kurosaki hiding from the world the fact he's a Soul Slayer/Death God.




Actually, pretty much the entire point of most action animes is that there are beings beyond normal men. I think you also miss the point of having all these characters in one universe: it's more profitable! You also may not like it, but teamups are FOR A FACT awesome. That's why there probably are tons of fanfics where Naruto and Sailor Moon have teamed up.

And characters with god-like powers are pretty much the entire plot of most action-type mangas.




This probably has more to do with that 'decompressed' storytelling thing; you can't have your already stretched plot interrupted for a pointless crossover after all. Also, there are TONS of pop culture reference in modern manga; you just don't understand them because you're not from Japan.




"Leik omg Kakashi would like totally beat Kenshin." "Like he totally would not." "Like yea, prep time, durrrrrrr."




Except for the flawless faces, giant fourteen year old breasts, and blue hair.




I think you're starting to stretch here. I mean, comedy isn't even a mainstay of most comics. And again, there is as much lame humour in american comics as there are in manga, it's just that you're from a different culture. I bet everytime a manga character sneezes because someone has said something bad about them, groans are heard throughout Japan.




I think the cast of Dragonball Z has been killed and resurrected more times then the entirety of American comic book history.




I just want to stop you there. For every Cyclops in American comics, there's some 12 year old who can blow up the earth in Japanese comics. Also, most Samurai manga is about as historically accurate as my spit.

And super powers are incredibly easy to avoid in American comics too, you're just not looking. They've been around since the earliest days, in the form of war, horror, and even romance comics. The big problem was the Comic Code, which nixed a lot of the content that could be presented. Even today, you can get some great stuff that doesn't go near your average superhero, such as Stray Bullets and Y: The Last Man.


I think you've just been hypnotized by our Japanese friends. There's a LOT of comic crap in Japan. Everything we get is through a filter, which means we tend to get only the most popular stuff. I'm not saying one is better then the other, because obviously certain storytelling methods will appeal to different people, but please don't claim Japanese manga to be superior when you obviously haven't read the great American books, which you must not have if you're using Deadpool as one of your examples.

- Eddie
Dude, you sound like you're just trying way too hard to be smart. Every character is not ideal and power rangers and hiding one identity in one manga for kids or whatever does not mean both comic types are the same. You've been hypnotized by yourself because you're nitpicking simple things that are facts.

Most manga does not have people like Superman hiding their identity by using glasses or some equally lame thing. Also team ups are stupid and cheesy. They might be awesome for making money but they aren't all that great for reading. People transforming or wearing costumes in certain types of manga doesn't mean everyone does. People having one secret identity is not the same as having a 12. You are reaching and reaching a lot.

I never even said it was superior overall. I said it was in my opinion based on my tastes. A lot of your classics suck in my opinion anyway. The Sandman doesn't impress me, sorry. I stated what I felt were advantages. Neither does Preacher and some other comics people keep mentioning.

All you did was mention Bleach and Power Rangers, both dumb kids stories. Pretty much everything you mentioned was. Good job. I'll take what you said and use it again "Don't try compare styles when you use those 2 as examples. You haven't even read the supposed good stuff."

You say you don't want to compare and then you nitpick what I post with bad examples even though I never said manga was definitely better.

And really, humor in American comics seems to suck more simply because it's placed in comics that aren't even supposed to be comedic. It gets old when x character has to say something witty to y character every time. Plus popular culture references suck.

I also like how you tell me everything you get is filtered when I already admitted many mangas were crap. I can at least say for a fact there aren't any mangas/writers/whatever I know of that have universes as large as DC and Marvel that just play off eachother to make money that ran out of any creativity a long time ago. You can talk about decompression or whatever you want to call it but it's still a benefit either way as it's part of the style.

I don't find myself picking up a manga and having to read a volume worth of other stuff inbetween in other comics because of some lame crossover to get the whole story because writers want you to pay more.

Also fanfics talking about team ups doesn't mean actual mangas have them all the time so get your for a fact garbage out of here. I've seen Buffy the Vampire Slayer X Captain Kirk. People will write some of the most disturbing stuff ever for reasons other than it being "sooooo coool."

Oh and you mention Dragonball Z and Naruto, the worst stuff in my opinion.
I should say all American comics suck because some guy wrote a comic where Lex Luthor decided to steel "40 cakes" to beat Superman or whatever he did once.

To Gavin Sage, there's no point in addressing anything you've said when all you did was say DBZ over and over again. Going by that logic once again I can just say all American comics suck because some guy wrote one about Luthor stealing cakes. And yeah I have read American comics in the past 20 years, just a few days ago actually. You just pull whatever you've seen off TV. I should be asking you what you've read of manga in the last 20 years as I should the other guy. Neither of you have named a manga that hasn't been overhyped and been a cruddy kid comic. Sailor Moon and DBZ are pretty damn old.

Marvel and DC isn't the end all and be all but I sure see that being the most well known and some of the biggest. A lot of other groups aren't much better.
The majority of this board talks about Marvel and DC as one example whether it's a good one or not.

To sum my post I'd just like to say I haven't seen the equivalent of a japanese DC and Marvel yet and I'm glad.

[Ozymandias]

People transforming or wearing costumes in certain types of manga doesn't mean everyone does. People having one secret identity is not the same as having a 12. You are reaching and reaching a lot.

So if it happens in one manga, it isn't necessarily inherent in the medium. Now why would that not apply to comics? Not every comic book character has a secret identity; indeed, not every comic book character is a superhero. It's the same thing.


I never even said it was superior overall. I said it was in my opinion based on my tastes. A lot of your classics suck in my opinion anyway. The Sandman doesn't impress me, sorry. I stated what I felt were advantages. Neither does Preacher and some other comics people keep mentioning.

Of course you're entitled to your opinion, but usually if you're going to voice it, you give some support, not simply 'it didn't impress me'. Similarly, could you deign to give us an example of a manga you find superior?


All you did was mention Bleach and Power Rangers, both dumb kids stories. Pretty much everything you mentioned was. Good job. I'll take what you said and use it again "Don't try compare styles when you use those 2 as examples. You haven't even read the supposed good stuff."

I fail to understand how you can discount Super Sentai and Bleach so easily; the former is a gigantic, long-running genre of Japanese television shows, comparable to Jidaigeki, while the latter is a paragon of the entire shōnen genre of manga, which is one of the largest and most popular.


You say you don't want to compare and then you nitpick what I post with bad examples even though I never said manga was definitely better.

You said:

Personally I feel manga is inherently better
Obviously, had you not wanted to argue your viewpoint, you would not have endeavored to comment.


And really, humor in American comics seems to suck more simply because it's placed in comics that aren't even supposed to be comedic. It gets old when x character has to say something witty to y character every time. Plus popular culture references suck.

I, personally, find wit very funny, much more than most other things. And about pop culture references; comedic manga and anime use them extensively, from Project A-ko to Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo.



I also like how you tell me everything you get is filtered when I already admitted many mangas were crap. I can at least say for a fact there aren't any mangas/writers/whatever I know of that have universes as large as DC and Marvel that just play off eachother to make money that ran out of any creativity a long time ago. You can talk about decompression or whatever you want to call it but it's still a benefit either way as it's part of the style.

I don't find myself picking up a manga and having to read a volume worth of other stuff in between in other comics because of some lame crossover to get the whole story because writers want you to pay more.

Of course it's a matter of opinion, but I enjoy cross-referencing arcs and multi-layered storytelling; if you'd rather have nice, orderly tankōbon with little to no synergy with outside materials, I guess that's fine too. If you think it's convoluted, be my guest, but I like figuring things out, and I don't tend to reject things as stupid very easily.


Oh and you mention Dragonball Z and Naruto, the worst stuff in my opinion.
I should say all American comics suck because some guy wrote a comic where Lex Luthor decided to steel "40 cakes" to beat Superman or whatever he did once.

By this logic, one can't really say anything about a medium because it'd only be a stereotype based on limited experience. Ergo, this entire argument is worthless, because it's just a bunch of generalizations, rendering any opinion as to whether comics or manga are better as pointless banter.

Hey, wait...

[nothingclever]

I don't even care any more. This is pointless now. Pat yourself on the back. I don't have the patience to sub divide the posts of mutiple people who are all saying generally the same things. You use Bleach/DBZ/Whatever as an example I can use the majority of DC/Marvel as one as it generally fit what I was describing. That's a lot more examples than any of you have given and they all work together to make American comics look bad as they all have their storylines and characters mixed directly together.

Ozymandias, notice how I said "although..." and you cut that part off conveniently? Good job, you're cool.

I like how you guys say I'm oversimplifying yet you claim both comic types are pretty much exactly the same and none of what I say is any different. I mentioned I thought a lot manga was bad but whoo good job going to your own ironic extremes. Next time I'll specifically right "I feel manga is personally inherently better in my opinion, for me, as an individual, etc etc."

This is my last response. I know I'm just going to get more and more of the same.

[Gavin Sage]

To Gavin Sage, there's no point in addressing anything you've said when all you did was say DBZ over and over again. Going by that logic once again I can just say all American comics suck because some guy wrote one about Luthor stealing cakes. And yeah I have read American comics in the past 20 years, just a few days ago actually. You just pull whatever you've seen off TV. I should be asking you what you've read of manga in the last 20 years as I should the other guy. Neither of you have named a manga that hasn't been overhyped and been a cruddy kid comic. Sailor Moon and DBZ are pretty damn old.

I've currently collected Bleach, Naruto, Trigun and have started on Negima. I also have Hellsing, but since they seem to have stopped releasing it can't say I'm collecting it. I also have a few assorted volumes of things FMA. Along with the first bit of Evangelion's manga adaptation, because I had freebie in the bookstore one time.

Now I noticed something, you say we haven't named anything but "cruddy kids comics" so my question is what mythical volumes do you read and consider so exemplar. I've tried to compare mainstream comics to mainstream comics, the sort that drive the market, as well as name ones that get above that. So now I ask again, what are these manga that are so much better specifically?

[Ashdate]

Dude, you sound like you're just trying way too hard to be smart. Every character is not ideal and power rangers and hiding one identity in one manga for kids or whatever does not mean both comic types are the same. You've been hypnotized by yourself because you're nitpicking simple things that are facts.

Most manga does not have people like Superman hiding their identity by using glasses or some equally lame thing. Also team ups are stupid and cheesy. They might be awesome for making money but they aren't all that great for reading. People transforming or wearing costumes in certain types of manga doesn't mean everyone does. People having one secret identity is not the same as having a 12. You are reaching and reaching a lot.

Hey dude, if you want to assume every protagonist in an American comic book has a secret identity and wears a costume, then I have every right to pick on your 'manga.' It isn't fair to use stereotypes to attack american comic books, but then get angry at me for pointing out some the same stereotypes in japanese comic books. And there are many. I'm pretty sure they must publish a "guide for designing sterotypical characters' that they place next to the thesaurus in a bookstore, because the number of cookie-cutter manga characters is astounding. You talk about 'facts' when you present none, and you talk about me reaching when you clearly aren't connecting the dots. So I'll connect them for you:

The superhero in the United States, is parallel to the robot pilot/sentai fighter in Japan. One culture builds it's hero's form within, the other encases them in a shell. They may, or may not, have a secret identity. They fight evil. The Power Rangers teaming up to destroy the villain of the week is no different then the Justice League getting together to halt an Alien Invasion. At the core, they are the same stories. But here's the thing: not all american comic books (and indeed, not all 'superhero books') follow this pattern, much like how not all giant robot mangas (and indeed, not all manga) follow this pattern either. However, there are a lot of noticeable similarities between superheroes and giant robots.

Yet, books like Runaways (the tale of a group of teenagers who try and defeat their parents when they find out they're all supervillains) prove that the genre doesn't just lend it self to the villain-of-the-week formula. At the same time, books like Invincible show that even a by-the-numbers superhero book can be fresh, engaging, and most of all unpredictable.

And Teamups are AWESOME. Take for instance, when Dr.Doom teamed up with Dr.Strange to break into hell to get Doom's mother's soul back. That was AWESOME. It's such a good example that I don't even need to mention anymore!

(so awesome!)



I never even said it was superior overall.

Yeah you did. Unless your words "I feel manga is inherently better" was some form of grevious typo.



All you did was mention Bleach and Power Rangers, both dumb kids stories. Pretty much everything you mentioned was. Good job. I'll take what you said and use it again "Don't try compare styles when you use those 2 as examples. You haven't even read the supposed good stuff."

All you used were Superman and X-Men, so excuse me for contrasting the most popular American stuff with the most popular Japanese stuff.



You say you don't want to compare and then you nitpick what I post with bad examples even though I never said manga was definitely better.

"I feel manga is inherently better" - nothingclever, July 1st 2007



And really, humor in American comics seems to suck more simply because it's placed in comics that aren't even supposed to be comedic. It gets old when x character has to say something witty to y character every time. Plus popular culture references suck.

Way to dodge my point about the pop culture references in manga that you don't get. And Deadpool is not the be all and end all for examples.



I also like how you tell me everything you get is filtered when I already admitted many mangas were crap. I can at least say for a fact there aren't any mangas/writers/whatever I know of that have universes as large as DC and Marvel that just play off eachother to make money that ran out of any creativity a long time ago. You can talk about decompression or whatever you want to call it but it's still a benefit either way as it's part of the style.

Are you actually reading most of these comic books? Or are you just making bold claims based on books you read years ago, coupled with stuff you read on the internet? A good idea never runs out of stories. The stuff that writers like Robert Kirkman and Brian K. Vaughn are pretty much convincing me that there are new and exciting stories yet to be told, even with character who have been around for over 40 years.

Also, did you ever think that a large universe might in fact, open up the possibilities for new stories? One of the best things about having a hero like Spider-Man is that he has such a rich history to draw upon. Without some McGuffin (sp?) driving him, Spidey can have adventures for years, (and this is the best part) when the writer is getting tired, or if his stories aren't cutting the mustard, he can pass the reins to someone else. Ditto for the artist. It's why the characters resonate with our culture.

A smart man once said "everyone has ONE Superman story to tell."

I mean, if your a manga writer/artist who is able to finish his comic without dragging it on, great. But look at some of the most popular series, being dragged on and on to continue selling Shonen Jump when they've long since past their expiration date (Death Note is a good example of a book that should have stopped half-way). Changing the writer or artist is impossible, so it's my contention that a long-running manga tends to suffer from burn-out. For every Akira, there are a dozen Naruto's.


I don't find myself picking up a manga and having to read a volume worth of other stuff inbetween in other comics because of some lame crossover to get the whole story because writers want you to pay more.

Boy, you're really stuck in the 90's aren't you. Didn't you know that comic book critics stopped using "I have to read 20 other books to get the story" back when they, you know, stopped doing that? With few exceptions, comics today tend to stick to one book when telling a story. Marvel has even gone so far as to strip themselves down to a single Spider-Man book in order to not force the reader to collect 3 or 4 titles.



Also fanfics talking about team ups doesn't mean actual mangas have them all the time so get your for a fact garbage out of here. I've seen Buffy the Vampire Slayer X Captain Kirk. People will write some of the most disturbing stuff ever for reasons other than it being "sooooo coool."

My point is that just because it doesn't happen, doesn't mean the demand isn't there. Did you hear about the time Dr. Doom teamed up with Dr. Strange to enter hell and retrieve Doom's mother's soul? So awesome.



Oh and you mention Dragonball Z and Naruto, the worst stuff in my opinion. I should say all American comics suck because some guy wrote a comic where Lex Luthor decided to steel "40 cakes" to beat Superman or whatever he did once.

Hey, if you get to use Supes, I get to use Goku.



I should be asking you what you've read of manga in the last 20 years as I should the other guy. Neither of you have named a manga that hasn't been overhyped and been a cruddy kid comic. Sailor Moon and DBZ are pretty damn old.

The only manga I've ever bought is Bleach, Eagle, Hot Gimmick, Monster, and Sanctuary. I've read quite a bit of stuff online. Probably about a hundred different titles or so ranging from popular stuff (School Rumble, Yakitate!! Japan) to some of the lesser known stuff [Io, "My Sister is going through Puberty" (or some rough translation like that, it was a pretty funny 4 panel manga), too many to count, and only a third of which I might remember the names to].

So what recent American stuff have you read lately? I mean, certainly more then Deadpool, Superman, and the X-Men.

Also, wasn't it the Joker that stole thems cakes? And by cakes I mean pies.

- Eddie

[Lemur]

Cade, I'm going to ask, what sort of American comics do you read? I don't think it's fair to group comics by their country of origin, but rather by their genre. If you'd provide some examples of the stuff you like, things might make more sense to me.

If I go to my local bookstore, there certainly is an impressive section devoted to Japanese comics. However, I've found some very interesting things in the comparitively small section devoted to non-Japanese comics. Barring the Sandman, I can't think of any of those very interesting comics being published by Marvel or DC, though. Maybe the Border's that I usually go to does things differently than your local bookstore, or maybe I have different tastes than you, but I can't say that they don't carry anything good.

[Xuincherguixe]

Anime is extremely popular right now. Manga kind of goes with that.


Now, I can make some statements about why I feel that it's better... but I'm not sure that has anything to do with it's popularity.

I think that part of this is the people who do this stuff over in Japan rightly can be considered artists. They work hard at this stuff, and make artistic sorts of statements.

Here? Not so much work goes into them.

Generally speaking. Recycled storylines and dragged out plots are not limited to any one nation or culture.


So probably there's just more money to be had with Manga than Western Comic Books.

[Lemur]

I don't think it's fair to say that comics in America, or comics anywhere in the world outside Japan, are inherently lacking (or by the same token, are inherently superior to Japanese comics).

It's not like America doesn't have cartoonists who do what they do very well, and take it seriously. However, the main issue is the state of comics "industry" in America. The two main publishers, Marvel and DC, produce a lot of very homogenous material, but with good publicity and distribution.

Anyone else, regardless of whether their material is blessed by the gods or total crap, generally has to put up with less than good distribution for their comics. The result is that you'll probably never see a lot of interesting things out there at your local bookstore, and quite possibly not even at your local comic store.

In contrast, the Japanese industry is very healthy, and has the ability to support more cartoonists, and provides a much wider range of genres (although you probably don't actually see most of the available genres at your local bookstore- what you see there is only a fraction of what Japan produces).

I'm going to suggest that the main reason you see so many Japanese comics nowdays is because there's a demand for comics which the industry in America isn't satisfying. There certainly is a demand for the superhero genre, but the thing is, there's a lot of demand for comics which don't revolve around people in skintight costumes, which is the primary product of industry. The growing section of imported comics in your local bookstore reflects that.

I don't think it's because manga is somehow "better" or American cartoonists are lazy or uninspired. If anything, it's that the inspired cartoonists in America have trouble catching a break.

[Xuincherguixe]

I don't think it's because manga is somehow "better" or American cartoonists are lazy or uninspired. If anything, it's that the inspired cartoonists in America have trouble catching a break.

That's pretty much it exactly.

I also wonder how much Manga there is like this too. Japan can actually be a pretty sniffling place sometimes. It's unique to us, but I think that anything too 'new' might offend and infuriate even more than here in the West. Considering what some Manga is like it's hard to imagine what would do this.

[DarkEternal]

Here are my two proverbial cents. There are various reasons why manga is more popular then comics these days. It is not because the story is better, if you think that is the reason, except in rare cases(Berserk for instance really is fantastic, a gruesome piece of art, and I loved Jojo myself if anything because it was as manly as it can get), but rather that you know it will end and you can read through it. There are not many people in this world that would allow their time to be spent reading through 40+ years of a comic book hero's history up to date knowing fully well that there will be 40+ years of that same comic book story which will not yet be finished especially if they are impatient younger generation(which, when you exclude a few dinosaurs like myself are a majority) would not be able to stand the mediocre art by today's standards and the corny dialogue present in the sixties or before. Personally, I love to read comics because they are practically never ending(I am talking about mainstream here, not limited editions or comics with a set number of issues) and you know that with an manga, no matter which one there will be an end.

The other thing is the cost, most certainly. Comic books are, let's face it expensive. You can blame the superior art, the colors and/or the packaging and I agree that those are the factors that should affect the price, but the fact is that in manga you get more cheap looking product for less cash, and more for less is always a good thing.

Then there is the content since again, especially in younger audiences people want something "fantastic", and not something affected by realistic politics, praising or denouncing certain orientations, but rather set in an universe of it's own, or a country such as Japan where, let's face it things work "differently" then in the west making it an unique "universe" all on it's own.

Finally, there are people who find characters more attractive in manga/anime then in comics. I am certain the majority of girls and boys would find a silver haired, cold eyed guy with a badass attitude and a katana weapon more endearing then a hairy midget with the same/evolved badass attitude on aesthetics alone. I personally like a male to look like a man and not a genderless creature where you have to work extra hard to understand who or what it is, and women to have curves and not serve as jailbait material. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy anime and a manga here and there, but some things I dislike, mainly those character archetypes which are one of the staples of the genre.

Basically, it all comes down to preference. While I personally loathe some things in anime(like Naruto), I still like some of the mainstream(I am a die hard fan of One Piece) so it evens out since in comics there are also things that I really am not too fond of and yet fantastic things or characters like the ever loving blue eyed Thing.

[Shadow of the Sun]

When it comes to quality, the best comics always have a definitive beginning and end- like Watchmen, Lucifer, or Sandman.

And even though I prefer western comics as a rule, there are exceptions. Such as Blade of the Immortal.

[Ozymandias]

Ozymandias, notice how I said "although..." and you cut that part off conveniently? Good job, you're cool.

I cut off the part where you basically put a disclaimer saying, 'But I'm only referring to the nebulous category of manga that I like and don't think are stupid'. If you take that into account, your statement is basically tautological and completely ridiculous. My point is that, your casual rejection of every example presented notwithstanding, you said that you felt the entire medium, including the shōnen examples given, was inherently better.

So yes, I cut off part of your statement, but that part did not actually change the purpose of said statement; it was a mitigator of sorts, but the way the sentence was constructed, you said that, despite those examples, manga was (you felt) inherently better.

You may want to actually think through how your sentences work before you imply that I'm twisting your words. Regardless of what you said after it, you said that you feel it is inherently better; this is corroborated by the next line:



There is a ton of crappy manga however I find it is simply better in some ways that are almost universal.

So, yeah. I'm still right and you probably need to work on your critical reading skills.

[Cade]

Cade, I'm going to ask, what sort of American comics do you read? I don't think it's fair to group comics by their country of origin, but rather by their genre. If you'd provide some examples of the stuff you like, things might make more sense to me.

If I go to my local bookstore, there certainly is an impressive section devoted to Japanese comics. However, I've found some very interesting things in the comparitively small section devoted to non-Japanese comics. Barring the Sandman, I can't think of any of those very interesting comics being published by Marvel or DC, though. Maybe the Border's that I usually go to does things differently than your local bookstore, or maybe I have different tastes than you, but I can't say that they don't carry anything good.

There is one and one half shelves. Most of this is civil war. There are 6 to 7 manga shelves with a few dislay cases. I read The Ultimates Imprint and some mainstream stuff from DC/Marvel. Sandman will come when I have more time. I don't know if I made myself clear, but the biggest problem I found was that trying to find a specific book was nearly impossible, forcing me to buy based on whatever is in the store at the time, while the manga section is bloated with duplicate series and such.

[Invisible Queen]

Just as an example, the comics I think are best and most readworthy are Sandman, the Invisibles, Y: the last man, Neon Genesis Evangelion and Battle Angel Alita. The first three are american comics, the last two are manga. I make no difference between them; they're all earth-shatteringly good comics that change the way you think and give you a hell of a good time while they do it.

I think the difference between the two are just in your mind. Well, the mangas mentioned are in black and white and Evangelion has a pretty generic art style, to be compared with the Invisibles which include a multitude of various unrelated styles and artists and some disastrous artistic experiments. I don't mind, it's the story that matters to me.

Um, I had a point here somewhere but I think I lost it. :smallsigh:

[Joran]

For me, when I think comic books, I think super heroes; I am simply unaware of any other genre of comic books. Even the ones that I really like, V for Vendetta and The Watchmen have dealt with superheroes.

The two different experiences I have with people who buy manga are my friends and my girlfriend.

My friends buy the manga for anime series they like, simple as that. If comic book TV shows were as popular as anime or as plentiful in various genres, they would probably buy comic books.

My girlfriend, on the other hand, likes both the art style (she loves cute things) and either magical girl mangas (Card Captor Sakura) or relationship mangas (Nana). As far as I know, comic books don't really cover this genre or do a poor job of marketing it.

P.S. It also may be a matter of where you live. Over here in Washington, D.C., we have a fairly large Asian population. As such, you probably see much more anime and manga here.

[Ozymandias]

One of the reasons manga seems so disproportionally big in stores is because of the way Americans usually get it - tankōbon. While some magazines, like Shōnen Jump, are gaining popularity, most people still read old, collected manga; it's already been printed in Japan, so the easiest way to present it is to translate the collections.

American comics favor using, well, comics. There are comic racks that are replaced far more often than the manga are. It's largely just that the latter is in a more static format that it seems to take up so much space.

[DeathQuaker]

One of the reasons manga seems so disproportionally big in stores is because of the way Americans usually get it - tankōbon.

Presumably that means "trade paperback" or some variation thereof.


American comics favor using, well, comics. There are comic racks that are replaced far more often than the manga are. It's largely just that the latter is in a more static format that it seems to take up so much space.

You make a very good point. In simplest terms, large bookstores sell books. Manga are published as trades. Most die-hard comic book collectors prefer to buy their comics as separate, individual issues for $2.89 apiece, rather than wait for the $15 trade paperback collection to come out later.

But most big bookstores don't sell individual comic issues (or if they do, they are located near the magazines, not near the manga, collected comic trades, gaming books, etc.). Comic book collectors get their comics mailed to them by subscription or they go to a specialized comic store to pick them up.

I've observed an odd dichotomy... my friendly local comic store happens to be located very near a Barnes and Noble. In fact, if I park near the B&N, I walk through it before I get to the comic shop. Yes, B&N has a huge collection of manga (of about 1 or 2 I have an interest in) but few comics. The friendly local comic shop, on the other hand, does booming business in comic books, but the manga it has sells far less frequently, and much of the manga they have in stock is pretty old. When I go in on Wednesday (the day the Diamond Shipping Company delivers its comics to stores), there are loads of people picking up their comics, often in huge stacks.

Other observations: most comic book buyers that I've seen tend to be older teens, college students, and adults. The majority are male.

Most manga buyers I've seen tend to be young teens, and fairly equal in gender. (I feel ancient when I'm perusing the manga shelves, at my ripe old age of 31).

So there are issues of specialization, target audiences, etc. Manga are a fairly "new" phenomenon... and being, yes, a certain kind of fad (even if it one that will hopefully last) will be carried by large commercial bookstores that pick up on teen fads. American comic books have always been a specialized "cult" sort of thing, and most people prefer to go to a specialty store to get them.

Other marketing issues... in America, most people who pick up manga start off as anime fans. Anime has started to shake off the "Cartoon" stigma... most of it is aimed towards teenagers and young adults, not children, and youth appreciate creative stuff aimed towards them. Anime can be broadcast on TV and is becoming more widely available, so the teens become more easily aware of the anime and related manga. Also, manga based on anime or vice versa are often similar in theme, so the audience will get what they are expecting.

American comics start as comics, which as a print medium are less widely marketed. Sometimes they inspire TV series or movies, but sometimes the TV series or movies are so different in feel or backhistory than the comic version that people who like the film version find they can't get into the comic or vice versa. (E.g., the comic book "Birds of Prey" is one of the best superhero comics I've ever read, but the failed TV series of the same name makes me nauseous. And yet, there are people that had never heard of the comic who ADORED the TV series, and don't want to read the comic because some of the characters are different.) If there is a true failing in broadening the appeal for American comics in America, it's more to do with bad marketing and poor efforts at crossing media.

And finally, there is the issue of continuity...

Manga, especially since they are published in the U.S. as trade paperbacks, are easy to pick up at the start and figure out what's going on. Also, manga are usually "limited" series--there's usually a planned end. Some manga series do seem to go on forever, but others may have up to 10 volumes maximum. That makes it easy to pick up, follow along, and get to a conclusion.

American comics are usually planned as ongoing series. Titles are cancelled based on lack of sales, not because an ending is pre-planned (the exception being if a series is specifically announced as a mini-series). Unless the comic editor or writer is on top of their game, they will write a continued story in such a way that it's sometimes difficult for a would-be comic fan to walk into the store, pick up Detective Comics #834 and figure out who all the characters are and what they're doing. (By the way, that is the actual issue number of said comic coming out this week. I am not exaggerating.) And it isn't necessarily easy to figure out when a given story arc started (and good luck on finding Detective Comics #1; not that it would help, as the characters and stories today have no resemblance to those published in 1939 or so). So this trend of "Continuity" and "Stories for those in the know" tends to keep the American comic audience limited to die-hard fans and/or those lucky enough to come into a series that is well-written enough for them to figure out what's going on pretty quickly.

If American comics were better marketed and better aimed towards being accessible to new readers, their sales would probably go up. And they ain't doing bad for a niche market. Some efforts are under way to help these issues, in fact.

And as for which is better? Which ever one appeals to your personal sense of aesthetics or story line. I have read some brilliant comics and some brilliant manga; I have also encountered a great deal of crap in comics, regardless of their country of origin. It's best to decide what kind of story you want to read, do the research as to who publishes those kind of stories, and go from there.

[Thimble]

I don't think it's because manga is somehow "better" or American cartoonists are lazy or uninspired. If anything, it's that the inspired cartoonists in America have trouble catching a break.

Another issue is simply the export barrier. The cost of shipping a title overseas tends to filter out the marginal work - not always, but to an extent.

For me, the bigger difference is with the anime/animated cartoons. I find it very difficult to find an animated series from a Western source that has the things I like (plot, characterisation, decent animation) whereas quality anime shows from Japan are easier for me to come by. That being said, it seems the reverse for live-action shows.

[Finn Solomon]

When it comes to quality, the best comics always have a definitive beginning and end- like Watchmen, Lucifer, or Sandman.

And even though I prefer western comics as a rule, there are exceptions. Such as Blade of the Immortal.

I think this is the ultimate reason. The best writers knew a definitive end to their work was the best way to make it remembered. In this case, it can truly become literature, stories with a definite beginning and an end. More mainstream comics are not books but ink-and-paper soap operas, and forty or sixty or so years of continuous history can weary even the best of characters.

[Cade]

I think this is the ultimate reason. The best writers knew a definitive end to their work was the best way to make it remembered. In this case, it can truly become literature, stories with a definite beginning and an end. More mainstream comics are not books but ink-and-paper soap operas, and forty or sixty or so years of continuous history can weary even the best of characters.

See, I've always sort of enjoyed continuity, and it's implications. It's fun to track down characters appearances and such, to some degree... But I can see how that isn't what everyone might enjoy.

[Rama_Lei]

As a fan of both, I think I can give some insight.

Let's start with this.
Shojo, shonen, BL, GL, yaoi, yuri, seinin, kodama, josei, redisu, maho shojo, gag, jidaimono, mecha, suiri, moe, echhi, shota-con, lolita, and hentai. These are the most common genres ranging from children's stories, to teenagers, to adults, to porn-lovers. And there's a pretty clear distinction between almost all of the genres. These genres span an entire country, and no adults are ashamed to be seen reading manga.

Meanwhile, how many genres can you name of American comics? 2, maybe three. Sure I love these comics, but it gets a little old. And lets face it, most people see comic readers as grubby, overweight, unshaven freaks. Is that true? No, but the stereotype is still there.

Another factor is style. There's really not a lot of different styles between comics and I feel like I'm looking at same thing after awhile. Manga, has tons of different and personal styles, realy helping influence the story.

[Ozymandias]

As a fan of both, I think I can give some insight.

Let's start with this.
Shojo, shonen, BL, GL, yaoi, yuri, seinin, kodama, josei, redisu, maho shojo, gag, jidaimono, mecha, suiri, moe, echhi, shota-con, lolita, and hentai. These are the most common genres ranging from children's stories, to teenagers, to adults, to porn-lovers. And there's a pretty clear distinction between almost all of the genres. These genres span an entire country, and no adults are ashamed to be seen reading manga.

Meanwhile, how many genres can you name of American comics? 2, maybe three. Sure I love these comics, but it gets a little old. And lets face it, most people see comic readers as grubby, overweight, unshaven freaks. Is that true? No, but the stereotype is still there.


Keep in mind that there are negative stereotypes tied to otaku in Japan, too.

I agree that manga tends to be more varied in subject matter, though.


Another factor is style. There's really not a lot of different styles between comics and I feel like I'm looking at same thing after awhile. Manga, has tons of different and personal styles, realy helping influence the story.

There aren't a lot of different styles in comics? What do you mean? Focus? Depth? Delivery? Dialogue? Art? Tone? Setting? All of those things vary wildly in American comics, so I don't really understand what you're saying.

[DeathQuaker]

As a fan of both, I think I can give some insight.

Let's start with this.
Shojo, shonen, BL, GL, yaoi, yuri, seinin, kodama, josei, redisu, maho shojo, gag, jidaimono, mecha, suiri, moe, echhi, shota-con, lolita, and hentai. These are the most common genres ranging from children's stories, to teenagers, to adults, to porn-lovers. And there's a pretty clear distinction between almost all of the genres. These genres span an entire country, and no adults are ashamed to be seen reading manga.

Um, you've listed a lot of subsets of genres (maho-shoujo, or "magical girl" is a a subset of "shoujo" manga, all of which is "comics designed for teenage girls"). Lolita, yaoi, yuri are different kinds of "hentai," and "ecchi" is a pretty much synonym for hentai, or at least a softcore version thereof (translations, in order: kiddie porn, slash, femslash, porn, and softcore; "ecchi" literally means "H" as in the first letter of the word "Hentai").

There's not a "clear distinction" there. Using lots of big Japanese words doesn't make it sound impressive.



Meanwhile, how many genres can you name of American comics?

Superhero, action, noir, high fantasy, sci-fi, humor, steampunk, drama, dark/urban fantasy, historical fiction, "Sunday comic," to name a few. And just like Japanese comics, among these, there are comics specifically oriented towards children, teen boys, teen girls, adults, and "mature audiences."



2, maybe three. Sure I love these comics, but it gets a little old. And lets face it, most people see comic readers as grubby, overweight, unshaven freaks. Is that true? No, but the stereotype is still there.

Wow, thanks for insulting the majority of the people who probably read this subforum.



Another factor is style. There's really not a lot of different styles between comics and I feel like I'm looking at same thing after awhile. Manga, has tons of different and personal styles, realy helping influence the story.

That's odd. I love manga, but most people who hate it claim "It all looks the same." I won't claim that, but I certainly won't claim that about American comics either. "Peanuts" looks a far cry from "Sandman" and everything in between.

Frankly, your statements come off as a bit naive. Try to research into it a little more.

[Blue Paladin]

Meanwhile, how many genres can you name of American comics? 2, maybe three.
Horror (Masters of Horror, IDW).
Gag (Simpsons, Bongo).
Slice of life (Archie, Archie).
Fantasy (Conan, Dark Horse/Red Sonja, Dynamite).
Adapted previous material (Transformers, IDW).
Extended previous materials (Star Wars, Dark Horse).
Science fiction (see above).
Porn (softcore and hardcore, lots).

Oh, and superhero comics (lots, lots).

And that's just currently running stuff. If we get into the stuff that's already ended we have:

Noir (Sin City, Dark Horse)
Detective (**** Tracy, IDW)
Historical fiction (From Hell, Kitchen Sink)
Steampunk (Battle Chasers, Cliffhanger!)
Gaslamp fantasy (Girl Genius, Airship)
Dystopian cautionary tale (V For Vendetta, Vertigo)


Another factor is style. There's really not a lot of different styles between comics and I feel like I'm looking at same thing after awhile. Manga, has tons of different and personal styles, realy helping influence the story.Compare R.Crumb and J.Scott Campbell and see if there's not a wee bit of difference...

Here's a question for you. Do you classify Kia Asamiya's run on X-Men as comic or manga? Why? How about Batman: Child of Dreams? Star Wars: The Phantom Menace? Why?

[DarkEternal]

Plus, those are just american comics....just think of the countless genres and styles found in European comics of which there are....many.

[Gavin Sage]

These genres span an entire country, and no adults are ashamed to be seen reading manga.

Meanwhile, how many genres can you name of American comics? 2, maybe three. Sure I love these comics, but it gets a little old. And lets face it, most people see comic readers as grubby, overweight, unshaven freaks. Is that true? No, but the stereotype is still there.

Just personally while the rest can be argued about I have to ask whether you actually believe this? I'm just saying check when you encounter an anime or manga fan in anime or manga. I mean I saw a part of a series once where the anime club, was about like the ones I've been in, on the relative outskirts of society. I don't deny there is a greater degree of acceptance, but that doesn't mean there are somehow no sterotypes associated with being otaku as opposed to being a nerd or geek in America.

Nor is there much distinction between anime/manga and comics in America either. So I'd say that all the same sterotypes apply to one as to the other, as to those who support such sterotypes it doesn't really matter and it all makes you a nerd. Thus it is more of a cultural failing then somehow the failing of a medium.

[seras1672]

Just personally while the rest can be argued about I have to ask whether you actually believe this? I'm just saying check when you encounter an anime or manga fan in anime or manga. I mean I saw a part of a series once where the anime club, was about like the ones I've been in, on the relative outskirts of society. I don't deny there is a greater degree of acceptance, but that doesn't mean there are somehow no sterotypes associated with being otaku as opposed to being a nerd or geek in America.

Nor is there much distinction between anime/manga and comics in America either. So I'd say that all the same sterotypes apply to one as to the other, as to those who support such sterotypes it doesn't really matter and it all makes you a nerd. Thus it is more of a cultural failing then somehow the failing of a medium.

The stereotype of geek and nerd apply in Japan to readers of comics too. The word otaku means "obcessed" in japanese and those who call themselves otaku are obcessed with anime and live on the outside of normal society (what americans would call the geek or nerd). Really, it doesn't matter if you prefer comics or manga, in most people's eyes (meaning those that don't understand the whole debate and comics/manga themselves) comic and manga readers are a big bunch of nerds. In short, comics and anime share the same spot in culture. There is no way to say one is better than the other.

[Justyn]

The stereotype of geek and nerd apply in Japan to readers of comics too. The word otaku means "obcessed" in japanese and those who call themselves otaku are obcessed with anime and live on the outside of normal society (what americans would call the geek or nerd).


No. Otaku (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otaku) (お宅 or 御宅) does not mean obsessed, both tsukimono (憑き物) and kyouhakukannen (強迫観念) do however, mean "obsession". Actualy, otaku literaly translates as "house".


Really, it doesn't matter if you prefer comics or manga, in most people's eyes (meaning those that don't understand the whole debate and comics/manga themselves) comic and manga readers are a big bunch of nerds. In short, comics and anime share the same spot in culture. There is no way to say one is better than the other.

Agreed. It's all preference; both have thier good points and both their bad. In the end, it's all what you prefer.

[Max_Sinister]

My opinion why Manga/Anime became so popular? It's for the girls. No, I don't mean the girls heroes in skimpy clothes, but the girl readers. Manga contain lots and lots of romance and relationship stuff, which I personally don't want to read, but you'll have to admit it was underrepresented in western comics.

Although I think Manga is going too far - some of the male characters (esp. if thought up by female writers) think and speak and act too much like females. Of course, the opposite also happens, but it's still stupid.

Personally, although I found Manga much earlier than most other people (connections), I'm not a big fan of it, save for exceptions. The black/white "coloring" is depressing and IMO only fits for serious themes, the story development goes too slow, and I don't like the style in general. Well, everyone as he likes.

[AtomicKitKat]

From an Asian perspective.

I pay about $6 local for a backing board(acid-free) + 1 US-based comic. Comes up to about US$3.50 I guess.

For a manga, it was around $7-10 for a volume of Ranma(translated to Chinese from Taiwan I think), about US$4.

So from a cost perspective, manga would be cheaper.:smallwink:

[Artemician]

My opinion why Manga/Anime became so popular? It's for the girls. No, I don't mean the girls heroes in skimpy clothes, but the girl readers. Manga contain lots and lots of romance and relationship stuff, which I personally don't want to read, but you'll have to admit it was underrepresented in western comics.


Wow-wee.. a lot of generalizations here.

Although Japanese Manga/Anime has a larger representation of stuff that's aimed towards girls, I wouldn't say that that makes up the whole of it. If you don't want to read it, you still have a large amount of available material.



Although I think Manga is going too far - some of the male characters (esp. if thought up by female writers) think and speak and act too much like females. Of course, the opposite also happens, but it's still stupid.


This phenomenon is not linked to only manga. Authors have a tendency of having a harder time writing about people of the opposite gender. This is true in all mediums.



Personally, although I found Manga much earlier than most other people (connections), I'm not a big fan of it, save for exceptions. The black/white "coloring" is depressing and IMO only fits for serious themes, the story development goes too slow, and I don't like the style in general. Well, everyone as he likes.

Whoa-wee.. story development varies widely from manga to manga. Sometimes they are fast, sometimes they move slowly. And if you want slow.. feel free to grab any random Western Superhero comic. Take Superman. In half a century of history.. it has managed to get.. where?

[DeathQuaker]

Although Japanese Manga/Anime has a larger representation of stuff that's aimed towards girls, I wouldn't say that that makes up the whole of it. If you don't want to read it, you still have a large amount of available material.

That's true... and though the idea that "manga is for girls" is a poor assumption, I'd say overall, manga is well marketed towards both boys and girls more or less equally. While American comics companies have worked on increasing their demographics, reading comics is still seen as largely a "teen/young adult male" phenomenon. So manga grabs, potentially, a much larger audience than "amekomi," to borrow a phrase from the Japanese. That may well contribute to its broader distribution in mass market commercial stores.

I wonder, broken down by genre (romance, action, etc.) how manga attracts different age and gender demographics.


Whoa-wee.. story development varies widely from manga to manga. Sometimes they are fast, sometimes they move slowly.

Actually, though oversimplified, I agree with the generalization that most manga is slower paced than most American comics. I've read a number of manga of various genres, likewise of American comics, and 9 times out of 10, more or less, the manga have definitely had a slower pace. American comics--especially action comics--often tend to squeeze as much action as possible in as few panels as possible, whereas manga tends to spread out the action... there is more of a focus on the minute, in some ways, in manga; more focus on motion in American comics.

And again, this is a generalization. There are exceptions to both rules, but I think that overall tends to be the case.

Edit: And I will add, that it's not necessarily a bad thing that Japanese comics are more slowly paced. It's just a different style of storytelling.



And if you want slow.. feel free to grab any random Western Superhero comic. Take Superman. In half a century of history.. it has managed to get.. where?

Wow, in a mostly well-reasoned post you very much missed the ball there. That's a poor comparison... the fact is, the comic named "Superman" (or the comic named "Action Comics") has changed so many times, it is hardly the comic it was in 1938, and it certainly hasn't been telling the same story the whole time. In fact, there've been whole re-writes of the character. The fact is, most story arcs in contemporary action oriented comics move very quickly.

If trying to get a good measurement of pacing, it would be a little more useful to compare a single story arc in a manga to one in an American comic, and both of them written around the same time period.

[alanajoli]

So from a cost perspective, manga would be cheaper.:smallwink:

AtomicKitKat hit the nail on the head--at least as far as the chain bookstores go. It's harder for chain bookstores to sell a lot of American comics because they're twice to three times as expensive as manga. Even if I'm making the same amount of money, I'm selling more product, which looks good on my spreadsheet at the end of the day.

Book buyers--especially teens--are also more willing to spend $7 to $10 for a comic than they are to spend $15 to $20. It's also extremely easy to display--which makes it a lot easier to sell. (See Crossgen as an example: they put out beautiful books--if somewhat in the generic house style adopted by the main DC/Marvel Superhero lines. I loved them and bought a whole bunch. But ultimately, their production quality was their undoing. People didn't want to spend that much money on their comics, even if it meant they were getting full color glossy paper, etc.)

A lot of American graphic novels--independent and Marvel/DC--is a less display friendly size. One of the things that's great about indies in particular is that they use a size that helps their storytelling. This is both good news--it may draw the eye--and bad news, as it doesn't conform to a display style. Fun Home isn't a uniform size. Nor is American Born Chinese of the huge JLA books that came out maybe five or six years ago. Bookstores will *always* carry what sells the easiest.

That said, particularly with B&N, the comics buyer there is a great guy who's a total comics geek. He's a fan of Bone, DC/Marvel, indie stuff, etc. He introduced me to a ton of the Top Cow and Image stuff when it came out. So B&N is definitely aware of what's out there--and they make a lot of comics available to *order*, even if they're not on the shelves. Some even have huge comic geeks like me (when I worked for the company) who love the section to bits, try to keep up with what's going on in all the different titles, recommend and happily take recommendations from customers. At the B&N at the Prudential Center in Boston, we had a whole comics club for awhile that was just employees--we'd go to Applebees together and chat about comics. One of the girls there hooked me on Fables, which most B&Ns will carry.

So if you want to get your comics at B&N and just aren't into the manga thing (the format just doesn't work for some people--to each his own!), check to find out if they have a comics geek on staff. I'd wager that 2 out of 3 chain bookstores have at least one person who's in the know and will sell you your graphic novels. Some area comic shops will have great graphic novel selections as well--though in my area, comic shops mostly sell the magazines, so it's all bookstore buying for me.

[Gavin Sage]

No. Otaku (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otaku) (お宅 or 御宅) does not mean obsessed, both tsukimono (憑き物) and kyouhakukannen (強迫観念) do however, mean "obsession". Actualy, otaku literaly translates as "house".

I absolutely love this quote since the same article you support your point with has the following to say on what people mean when they say otaku as opposed to simply its etymology:

In modern Japanese slang, the term otaku refers to an overtly obsessive fan of any one particular theme, topic, or hobby.

Reading skills for the win!


AtomicKitKat hit the nail on the head--at least as far as the chain bookstores go. It's harder for chain bookstores to sell a lot of American comics because they're twice to three times as expensive as manga. Even if I'm making the same amount of money, I'm selling more product, which looks good on my spreadsheet at the end of the day.

Book buyers--especially teens--are also more willing to spend $7 to $10 for a comic than they are to spend $15 to $20. It's also extremely easy to display--which makes it a lot easier to sell. (See Crossgen as an example: they put out beautiful books--if somewhat in the generic house style adopted by the main DC/Marvel Superhero lines. I loved them and bought a whole bunch. But ultimately, their production quality was their undoing. People didn't want to spend that much money on their comics, even if it meant they were getting full color glossy paper, etc.)

I feel the need to point out that comics are still affordable and come out much faster when not in graphic novel form. I have to wait months between manga volumes generally, I can buy new comic issues every week. And for that you get the direct collaborative work of 3 people with a much higher production value next to one guy's rough scribblings in black in white. Nor do I find many people say switching from comics to only manga, thus it is not some zero-sum game and comics are not dieing out.

However there is a far point in there. I personally wish individual issues came out on the newsprint to save costs (DC has put out a few for certain occaisons and got me seeing I don't need super high quality paper) then only bother with the full glossly page ones for the trades, special issues, or some other place.

[AtomicKitKat]

I feel the need to point out that comics are still affordable and come out much faster when not in graphic novel form. I have to wait months between manga volumes generally, I can buy new comic issues every week. And for that you get the direct collaborative work of 3 people with a much higher production value next to one guy's rough scribblings in black in white. Nor do I find many people say switching from comics to only manga, thus it is not some zero-sum game and comics are not dieing out.

Manga does come out, almost weekly, in Japanese newspapers. Sort of like most western syndicated strips. Besides which, one thing I love about Manga would be the ability to buy all of them at once, and then spend an entire weekend(or week, if necessary) reading through every single volume.

[Blue Paladin]

I feel the need to point out that comics are still affordable and come out much faster when not in graphic novel form. I have to wait months between manga volumes generally, I can buy new comic issues every week.That's an unfair comparison (specifically, the part about excluding graphic novels). You can buy Shonen Jump every week. In fact, that gets you your material faster than even American comics. If you're reading the Flash, you have to wait a month before getting the next issue. If you're following Iron Man, the wait is still a month. If you're reading Eyeshield 21, you get the next installment each week.

Your rate of tankoubon purchase should be compared to your rate of trade paperback purchase. The TPB is a collection of previously printed comics; the tankoubon is a collection of previously printed comics.


And for that you get the direct collaborative work of 3 people with a much higher production value next to one guy's rough scribblings in black in white.You can't use HunterXHunter as a fair comparison :P In fact, that's probably the only weekly that really is one guy, scribbling roughs to make the weekly deadline. Not that he needs it; he's living the high life off his Yuu Yuu Hakusho & Flame of Recca money, let alone his wife's anime fortunes.

With painfully few exceptions (HunterXHunter being the only one I know of), every manga series is a collaborative effort from a small group; it's just the assistants involved tend to not get much in the way of credit. Still, a lot of these assistants go on to have their own successful series. Oda Eiichiro and Takei Hiroyuki were assistants on Watsuki's Rurouni Kenshin, and went on to create One Piece and Shaman King, respectively.


I personally wish individual issues came out on the newsprint to save costs ... then only bother with the full glossly page ones for the trades, special issues, or some other place.And this is exactly what happens in Japan. The cheap, weekly "telephone book" initial run, and the higher-quality (but still non-glossy) tankoubon, and the yet-higher-quality (sometimes glossy) collected editions.

[jazz1m]

It's just a matter of taste, some people like manga, some people like comics. Now I would compare manga more to graphic novels rather than comics. To me comics are a standalone issue where you have the entire store in one book. Graphic novels are just that - a story that spans several issues.

Now there's a lot of manga that just keeps going, which is my main problem, namely these tend to be the action manga (Naruto, Bleach, One Piece, etc.). The plots are pretty similar which is the main reason the manga can be drawn out. Now compare these to Spiderman, Superman, Hellblazer - sure each comic has a different problem, but how many of them are the same, same plot, same enemy? I mean superhero comics tend to all have a pretty similar plot throughout. Save the world from some kind of evil, fight the badguys, so on and so forth. Yes, there are different presentations of said evil (it's not always the form of a person) but in general, the comics tend to be pretty much the same.

Another reason for such long volumes of manga is of course the money. There's a pretty large following for most genres of manga and the artists make a pretty big profit. Why not draw it out?

I think a lot of American stereotype about manga - 14 year old girls with gigantic breasts and ninjas and samurais - is due in part to anime and what is imported to the US. Yes, a lot of manga incorporates these elements and that's because they're mostly aimed at young boys, or romantic manga that is aimed at teenage girls and boys, but how is the US comics any different. We have superheroes that are attractive and well-muscled and badass and the female characters tend to be total hotties. Or on the other spectrum there's the superheroes that are kind of geeky (spiderman) who are funny and save the day, whoa manga has the same thing.

If the major complaint for many people is the fact that manga is 'decompressed' then I agree. It would be nice if they weren't drawn out so much, but again, I don't blame them for it, they're making a lot of money. And Japan and America have different cultures and different ways of telling a story and setting the framework.

Some good manga
Monster
Berserk
Bobobo-bo bo-bobo - not for the sane; very strange but hilarious

[psycojester]

Spiderman, Superman, Hellblazer

Ooooh! One of these things is not like the other! One of these things just doesn't belong!

[Closet_Skeleton]

Another reason for such long volumes of manga is of course the money. There's a pretty large following for most genres of manga and the artists make a pretty big profit. Why not draw it out?

Or just to pay the bills.

If you trust the portrayal of Mangaka in their own works, its a pretty exhausting job and I'll give the ones working to weekly deadlines the benifit of the doubt. Fans get annoyed when their favourite series gets canceled but for the mangaka it means he's been fired. With the ammount of time it takes to learn art at a professional level they don't really have the option of another job.

Not every Author is as rich as Rowling and writing Manga is closer to the 'penny a word' ethic of writing.

Ooops. I appear to have gone into a pointless rant. If you didn't mean to imply greed then don't take this post against you.

[jazz1m]

Well, just like in america, some comic artists make a lot of money and some don't, just as some mangaka make a lot and others don't. Greed is not always a factor, there are those that need to make an honest living, and pay the bills as you say, but there are other artists/writers/studios, that just keep going with the manga when it should have ended volumes ago (Inuyasha for example). My personal opinion. No, not every mangaka can become very successful, and it is a hard life for one who is struggling.

@psycojester
It doesn't belong because it doesn't start with S? :p
Seriously though, I'm just pointing out that manga and comics are not that different.

[Drakron]

True.

Look Watsuki Nobuhiro "Rurouni Kenshin" that spam 28 volumes as "Busou Renkin" ended at 10 because it was canceled due to lack of popularity.

[horseboy]

What was this thread originally about? :smallwink:
I've never been a fan of superhero comics. Likewise, stories about 12 year olds who "somehow" have some innate ability that allows them to be able to bungle their way through adventures that are killing off seasoned professionals left and right leave me wanting. Mainly for the same reason I believe.

I believe that a lot of the "problems" with manga is that fact that it's currently so popular. A couple of years ago, they'd only send in stuff that would be worth reading. It's caught on, now they're flooding the market with all manner of crap. A little more and the fad will die down and they'll go back to only putting stuff out that's fit to read again. It's a cycle you see a lot in entertainment markets.

But, yeah if you want cutting edge comics *COUGH* where are we guys? Web comics! Yeah, there's a LOT of crap out there, but this is where you can see some real changes in the whole comics para dime.

Also, you guys keep talking about the "weak graphics" (excuse the expression) is there one that's Death Dealer (http://www.imagecomics.com/issue.php?item=3249#) cool?