3.5 Psionics With No Magic

[GlitchInReality]

What do you think of a setting in D&D 3.5 that has psionics but no magic in any way, shape, or form?

[Zombimode]

What do you think of a setting in D&D 3.5 that has psionics but no magic in any way, shape, or form?

You mean no magic other then psionics?

Setting-wise, sure why not.


In terms of gameplay, well the selection of base classes would be rather limited.
Lets see: Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, Marshall, Knight, Scout, Swashbuckler, Samurai, Warblade and Crusader with Monk and Ninja with question marks. And the psionic classes of course.

Still thats enough variety for one campaign or so.

Monster selection would become rather limited, but thats not necessarily a bad thing.

Stuff like out-of-combat healing becomes rare. But again, thats not necessarily a bad thing.

So yes, I would play in such a campaign. I don't want that all campaigns be like this, but I would give it a shot.

[GlitchInReality]

You mean no magic other then psionics?

Setting-wise, sure why not.


In terms of gameplay, well the selection of base classes would be rather limited.
Lets see: Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, Marshall, Knight, Scout, Swashbuckler, Samurai, Warblade and Crusader with Monk and Ninja with question marks. And the psionic classes of course.

Still thats enough variety for one campaign or so.

Monster selection would become rather limited, but thats not necessarily a bad thing.

Stuff like out-of-combat healing becomes rare. But again, thats not necessarily a bad thing.

So yes, I would play in such a campaign. I don't want that all campaigns be like this, but I would give it a shot.

Psionics is not a form of magic as per 3.5 standard rules.

I see the Path of War classes to be as suspect as the Monk and Ninja are in terms of fitting into such a setting.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Psionics are suppressed in an antimagic field, so they are at least as magical as (Su) abilities.

Speaking of, since you can refluff all (Su) and (Sp) abilities to be psionics-based, this would not affect noncasters too much, and you can just avoid classes with divine/arcane casting. It's a good idea if you're trying to promote different subsystems.

[Zombimode]

Psionics is not a form of magic as per 3.5 standard rules.

Huh? Maybe you are confusing "magic" with "whatever wizards are doing"?


I see the Path of War classes to be as suspect as the Monk and Ninja are in terms of fitting into such a setting.

By Path of War I presume you mean Tome of Battle. And that's fair enough. I was just listing all the possible classes under this constraint. Warblades and Crusaders would technically fit since all their abilities and maneuvers are extraordinary. Swordsages would not. But yes, I can see why you would exclude all three classes.


Speaking of, since you can refluff all (Su) and (Sp) abilities to be psionics-based, this would not affect noncasters too much, and you can just avoid classes with divine/arcane casting.

... and Pact Magic, Shadow Magic, Truenaming, Incarnum, both kinds of Invokers and Dragon Shamans.

[digiman619]

I think 2 Ed. had a campaign setting like that; all the magic had been drained and the world was a desolate desert. Dark Sun? it had Sun in the title, I don't entirely remember...

[KillianHawkeye]

I think 2 Ed. had a campaign setting like that; all the magic had been drained and the world was a desolate desert. Dark Sun? it had Sun in the title, I don't entirely remember...

Yes, although it wasn't that the magic had been drained from the world so much as arcane magic actively ruined the environment when you used it (and that was why most of the known world was a barren wasteland). Divine magic was gone due to there being no gods in the setting, although there were some sort of "elemental priests" I think.

[GlitchInReality]

Huh? Maybe you are confusing "magic" with "whatever wizards are doing"?

No, it is stated in the Expanded Psionics Handbook that psionics is a different force than the magic that is utilized by both arcane and divine spell-casters.

Mechanically it may be very similar to magic but it is not magic according to the official material.

[KillingAScarab]

I think 2 Ed. had a campaign setting like that; all the magic had been drained and the world was a desolate desert. Dark Sun? it had Sun in the title, I don't entirely remember...


Yes, although it wasn't that the magic had been drained from the world so much as arcane magic actively ruined the environment when you used it (and that was why most of the known world was a barren wasteland). Divine magic was gone due to there being no gods in the setting, although there were some sort of "elemental priests" I think.The Tablelands were also ruled by sorcerer-kings. Templars were granted power by them which they could use to cast spells. So, Dark Sun isn't exactly a setting without magic, but it is one where it is very controversial.

There's the original 2nd edition books still being sold as PDFs, but Wizards of the Coast put out a 4th edition campaign setting for Dark Sun (Penny Arcade played a session (http://dnd.wizards.com/play-events/podcasts-livestream-games/penny-arcadepvp-dark-sun-pt-1) with it), and Athas.org has some notes about a 5th edition playtest. As for 3.X, I believe you would want this unofficial rulebook (http://www.athas.org/products/ds3) from 2003 on Athas.org. Interestingly, there are PHB spells which are listed with strikethrough to note not all clerics receive them.

[Sword-Geass]

Psionics are suppressed in an antimagic field, so they are at least as magical as (Su) abilities.


Psionics are suppressed in an antimagic field if you are playing with psionic/magic transparency, which is one of two ways of going. So it's better to not asume that psionics are magic (also, it seems to be that he won't be using transparency).


Back on topic, that setting would be interesting, although a little rough for mundanes due to the lack of the magical equipement in which they rely (most...the vast majority... almost all of the enhancement for weapons and armors are magic in nature, for example).

[ExLibrisMortis]

Psionics are suppressed in an antimagic field if you are playing with psionic/magic transparency, which is one of two ways of going. So it's better to not asume that psionics are magic (also, it seems to be that he won't be using transparency).
The OP has not specified which version is in use. I've answered for the default rule, being, you know, the default: dead magic areas are automatically dead psionic areas, antimagic fields suppress psionic feats (which are (Su) abilities), and the following applies:
Most psionic monsters have some number of psi-like abilities. These are very similar to spell-like abilities. Naturally, they are psionic (and therefore magical as well, unless the DM has decided to segregate magic and psionics in the campaign)That is: psionics are automatically also magic.

If transparency is not in use, the situation changes a bit, but for the most part, psionics can do most things regular magic can, and (Su) abilities remain viable (or you can't use psionic feats at all, which would be somewhat awkward). You're going to be a bit short on illusions, but in general, I don't think your world would change too much.

[Pluto!]

Not quite what you're going for, but my last couple campaigns have been a jumbled mess of Iron Heroes, Secrets of Pact Magic and Expanded Psionics Handbook.

No real problems, but recovery's represented pretty big tempo hits unless I drop healing items on the group.

EDIT:
Dark Sun was pretty sweet in AD&D and I know some of the old writers and fans used to support the setting for 3e at Athas.org (http://www.athas.org/). I never really got into it with 3e so I can't vouch for the site, but it's still there.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Healing is considerably different in a world without spellcasting. Cure X wounds and the heal spell no longer exist in most forms, and lots of status effects no longer have counters, from relatively common ailments such as deafness and blindness to various weird abilities that monsters have. These become much more difficult to cure, unless you have access to iron heart surge, which is now one of the most important effects to have available. It's also available for a mere 3,000 gp for a 1/minute use. Also, non-psionic martial classes can no longer heal properly due to healing magic no longer being available for most non-psionic characters, so alternatives will be needed. I suggest the nonmagical healing salve, from Tome and Blood, as well as finding ways to give a psicrystal or animal companion (via Wild Cohort) a healing aura (from dragon shaman, I think, but it works well enough in a psionic-only world).

[Telok]

Psionic healing is less efficent and obvious than magical healing but is just as effective and includes all the standard status effects and coming back from death. Magic items, especially arms and armor, are not restricted in any way by psionics. The same set of base item creation feats exists, although with some name and fluff changes.

[KillingAScarab]

Psionic healing is less efficent and obvious than magical healing but is just as effective and includes all the standard status effects and coming back from death. Magic items, especially arms and armor, are not restricted in any way by psionics. The same set of base item creation feats exists, although with some name and fluff changes.At the third level of the Sangehirn prestige class (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625c) you may finally manifest body adjustment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/bodyAdjustment.htm) to simply restore HP to another person. Takes bloody long enough...

[Pluto!]

There's also the Empathetic Transfer + Body Adjustment thing, but it costs a million PP, a lot of time and a nontrivial number of powers known.

[Telok]

There's also the Empathetic Transfer + Body Adjustment thing, but it costs a million PP, a lot of time and a nontrivial number of powers known.

Three levels of Wilder, two of anything else, and PrC into a class that advances manifesting. That, Bestow Power, the two above powers, and one or two feats gets slow unlimited
healing. It's ok as a PC but it makes a better cohort for Leadership.

Of course there's the "troll empathy" method. Enslave a troll and have Hostile Empathic Trasfer available. It works best if you ability drain it's wisdom stat to zero, it can't even feel pain then.

[Pluto!]

...that was your pitch for the efficiency of psionic healing?

[LTwerewolf]

Significantly more difficult than "cleric or druid 1."

[Dunsparce]

Outside of the Sangehirn Prc, Any class that has access to the Life Mantle from Complete Psionic can heal decently enough(Most notably is the power Mend Wounds, the closest Psionics gets to Heal). So basically Ardent or a variant Egotist Psion from the Mind's Eye Articles(Or Divine Mind if you like sucking all the time).

The only power off the top of my head that can deal with Status effects however is Psionic Delay Poison from Secrets of Sarlona, a book that is the third largest 1st party source of Psionic powers after Expanded Psionics Handbook and Complete Psionic.

[Willie the Duck]

What do you think of a setting in D&D 3.5 that has psionics but no magic in any way, shape, or form?

A lot of people consider the psionics system to be a more balanced (overall, there are still plenty of loopholes in the wording of certain things) than 3.5 arcane and divine magic. I think running a game where all the spellcasting roles are taken over by psionic classes would be both doable and interesting.

I think the situation breaks down a bit if you cut out all things listed in all places as magic (such as supernatural abilities of races, monsters, and some classes). You might want to take them on a case-by-case basis and see if you want a given ability to not exist, or to exist as a psionic equivalent. A doppelganger is a good example. Their shapechanging is a (su) ability, and thus magic. However, it is thematically an inherent quality of the monster and the biggest reason to use one in your game. In a psionics-only world, it's reasonable that there could be a psionic monster with the exact same abilities as a doppelganger, who accomplishes the same abilities via psi.

That highlights a good question however. What exactly have you gained by replacing a magic system with another system which is nearly the same, except in the niggling details (and possibly balance)? Okay, psionics aren't magic--but they're a similar system which accomplishes nearly the same thing using similar methods. It reminds me of the webcomic Girl Genius, which is set in an alternate reality where mice have been replaced by diminutive creatures in the elephant family -- that act just like mice.

So I'll ask, what are your goals in replacing magic with psionics? Only after knowing that can we really inform you on whether making this switch will accomplish said goals.

[Canine]

If you are looking for mechanics, Dreamscarred Press has put out Ultimate Psionics (Pathfinder, not 3.5); it does add a ton of options for running a psionic campaign. Some of the material from Psionics Unleashed (an earlier version of Ultimate Psionics with less material) is available on the d20pfsrd, to give you an idea of what it has to offer.

Thematically, the setting could be anything, depending on how prevalent psionics are (and which sources you use), but I suspect it would look like a low-magic campaign and/or Dark Sun. How you treat Spell-like and Supernatural abilities will also impact the creatures out in the world; medusa with no gaze attack is just a weird hairstyle.

[digiman619]

With respect, a world where the primary "magic" in the world is really psionics wouldn't remove every (Su) or (SL) ability; the only change is that "spell-like" abilities would be called "psi-like" instead. As for healing, the vitalist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/vitalist), again from Dreamscarred Press' Ultimate Psionics is what you need. It's for Pathfinder, so you'd need to back-port it 3.5, but it's the 'psychic healer' class without the need for divine magic.

[Pex]

Healing is a problem since psionics is quite inefficient about it. It does have its own version of Raise Dead, so that won't be an issue if it would be an issue for PCs and inherently makes it rare in the gameworld for ease of verisimilitude about the topic. Still, the general recovery of hit points is lacking. It's the nature of the game that healing be available.

Perhaps the easiest solution is to make Cure Wounds a 1st level augmentable power and ignore Psionic's version of healing. All psionic classes have access.

Cure Wounds (Psychometabolism)
Level 1
Range Touch
Duration Instantaneous
Cost: 1

Heal a creature for 1d8 + 1 hit points. This power has no affect on constructs, undead, or creatures without an anatomy such as an ooze.

Augment: For every additional 1 pp spent, Cure Wounds heals an additional hit point. For every 2 pp points spent this way Cure Wounds also heals an additional 1d8 hit points.

You can have a Mass Cure Wounds version as a level 3 power for base healing of 1d8 + 1 for three creatures. As an additional augment choice +1 pp for each additional creature to be healed.

[trikkydik]

Honestly, it seems to me that you dont want magic and psionics in the same campaign because you either "Can't" incorporate it or you "Don't want to"

either way, its a shortcoming on the DM's part.

Why hold back a good PC because the DM cant handle psionics and magic at the same time?

[Telok]

...that was your pitch for the efficiency of psionic healing?

I didn't say it was great, just doable and infinite.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Cure Wounds (Psychometabolism)
Level 1
Range Touch
Duration Instantaneous
Cost: 1

Heal a creature for 1d8 + 1 hit points. This power has no affect on constructs, undead, or creatures without an anatomy such as an ooze.

Augment: For every additional 1 pp spent, Cure Wounds heals an additional hit point. For every 2 pp points spent this way Cure Wounds also heals an additional 1d8 hit points.Living constructs should receive half-healing from it.

Of course, there's ye olde Lycanthromancer's Psionic Powers Revision (TM):


Body Purification (NA)
Psychometabolism (Healing)
Level: Psion/wilder 1, psychic warrior 1
Display: Auditory and material
Manifesting Time: 1 move action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous
Power Points: Psion/wilder 1, psychic warrior 1

You take control of your body's healing process, curing yourself of 1d12 points of damage. As usual, when regular damage is healed, an equal amount of nonlethal damage is also healed. Alternatively, you can restore up to 1 point of damage to a single ability score. You can not use body purification to heal ability drain or ability burn.

Since this power does not deal with positive or negative energy, intelligent undead creatures are healed just as living creatures are. Unless their entry specifically states otherwise, mindless constructs and undead are unaffected by this power, while intelligent constructs receive only half of this power's benefits.

Augment: 1. For every additional power point you spend, this power heals 1 additional point of damage to the same ability score, or 3 points of hp damage

2. For every 2 additional power points you spend, this power heals an additional 1d12 points of damage.

3. [Egoist] If you spend 2 additional power points, the range on this power becomes "Touch," its target becomes "One creature touched," its saving throw becomes "Fortitude negates (harmless)," and its power resistance becomes "Yes (harmless)."

4. If you spend 4 additional power points, this power's manifesting time becomes "1 swift action."
4a. If you spend a total of 6 additional power points, it becomes "1 immediate action."

5. If you spend 4 additional power points, you can transfer 2 points of ability damage from a creature you touch to yourself; its range becomes "Touch," its target becomes "You and one creature touched," and its power resistance becomes "Yes, (harmless)." If you have spent enough power points to heal all of the ability damage you take, it is instantaneously healed. Note that you must spend enough power points through augment #1 to heal the damage taken; otherwise, you receive the excess as ability damage.
5a. For every 2 additional power points you spend, you can transfer an additional 2 points of ability damage.

6. If you spend 6 additional power points, you can heal (and transfer, if you use augment #2) ability drain in addition to ability damage.

7. If you spend 6 additional power points and 20 XP per power point spent on this power, you can heal (and transfer, if you use augment #8) ability burn in addition to ability damage.

8. If you spend 6 additional power points, you can transfer your ability damage to another. Its range becomes "Touch," its target becomes "One creature touched," its saving throw becomes "Fortitude negates," and its power resistance becomes "Yes." If you combine this augment with augments #5 and #6, you can transfer ability drain and ability burn.

9. [Negative] For every power point not spent, the die size decreases by one step, from d12 to d6 to d4. You cannot heal ability damage with this augment....Apparently healing needed a boost in his campaigns.

[LTwerewolf]

If you're splitting hairs, the living construct thing only applies to magic. "However, spells from the healing subschool provide only half effect to a living construct."