Potion of Trolling?

[Calibus]

So my group just finished a small dungeon. At the end of the dungeon there was a hidden cache of gems and gold for a level 3 group. In that cache was a potion of fire breath and a potion of poison looking like and if consumed tasting health potion.
For all intensive purposes i vaguely said it appears to be a health Potion. The party did not bother with any arcana. And gave the potion to our resident paladin who has a stash of 2 other actual health potions.

The question is, since the potion has been passed off as a healing potion. When and how should i handle this potion whenever a potion would be used or given? Should i roll a 1d (#ofPotions) whenever a potion is used? Is there a mechanic i am unaware of for this case scenario?

[Ninja_Prawn]

For all intensive purposes

But what about the relaxed purposes? #SorryNotSorry


The question is, since the potion has been passed off as a healing potion. When and how should i handle this potion whenever a potion would be used or given? Should i roll a 1d (#ofPotions) whenever a potion is used? Is there a mechanic i am unaware of for this case scenario?

Looks like a classic case of random chance to me. If the paladin chooses one potion from their belt at random, there's a 1 in 3 chance they'll pull the fake. Hence, roll a d3 - it's what they're for!

[Yuki Akuma]

"For all intents and purposes".

This is all I have to say.

[Foxhound438]

well what about extensive purposes? or does it not matter the mass of purpose that you have at all?

[Ninja_Prawn]

well what about extensive purposes? or does it not matter the mass of purpose that you have at all?

What I think you're forgetting is the inventive porpoises. Surely they get a say?!

[5a Violista]

"For all intents and purposes".

This is all I have to say.

Oh!
Hahaha. I totally didn't notice that's what was intended to be said. I had interpreted it as "...for all purposes...it appeared to be a health potion." So, like, it had the same density, concentration, boiling point, temperature, etc of a health potion. Totes thought that was intentional.
Which, actually now that I think about it, if it is the same density/color/temperature then for all intents and purposes appears to be a health potion until you drink it. So...retroactively correct?

Regarding what you should do:
Having a random chance of them pulling the poison is fair.

However, I think you should also give them a chance to recognize the poison. When they pull it out, give them a skill check to notice something amiss before drinking it. When they rest for the night or take out their potions for whatever reason, roll a die against a number to see if they recognize it.

While it [I]is fair to simply let them take the poison when they're expecting healing, it is fun to give them the ability to recognize it before it's too late.

[Ninja_Prawn]

When they rest for the night or take out their potions for whatever reason, roll a die against a number to see if they recognize it.

If that feels too contrived, you could have an NPC mention how they fell foul of a potion of poison a few years ago, or a shopkeeper say that they've seen a lot of fake potions on the market lately. Or a madman on the street corner ranting about how all potions are part of an evil government mind-control scheme, and imploring the PCs to throw theirs away.

Or you could do all three. Players can be kind of dense sometimes.

[Socratov]

Regarding what you should do:
Having a random chance of them pulling the poison is fair.

However, I think you should also give them a chance to recognize the poison. When they pull it out, give them a skill check to notice something amiss before drinking it. When they rest for the night or take out their potions for whatever reason, roll a die against a number to see if they recognize it.



Couldn't agree more. this is not so much trolling as assassination of a player character through railroading. essentially you are saying that if someone grabs a potion becuase they need healign stat that there is a 1/x chance of them drinking stuf that is a health potion for all intents and purposes, but instead of healing it poisons you and you die. Just because you tell them "It looks like a healing potion, it smell slike a healing potion and it smells like a healing potion, so yeah it's a healing potion (gnagnagna wait until they drink it and find no healing and poison to further trouble the party)."

Which is bad.

If you give them an honest chance at recognizing the potion then that's just fine and dandy.

If you give them a potion of healing that happens to have a poison rider (or other rider for that matter). You see this creates consequences, yet not at the moment your PC's are literally reaching for help to not die.

[TheFlyingCleric]

If no one in the party ever casts identify on it, it's quite possible the Paladin will drink the potion when at low health and kill himself. If he does it during a fight, that could result in a TPK. And it probably won't feel fair to them, even if they had read the list of magic items beforehand.

So be careful what you do. You may even want to retroactively change the potion into say, a potion of disguise self? Troll the players without killing them?

[pribnow]

Regardless of how you play this out, just know that a Potion of Poison is very lethal, especially at low levels.

One of my players used a potion of poison a few months ago on an NPC barbarian of level 3. NPC was on full health, but did not stand a chance and was killed in 2 or 3 rounds. Even if you make half of the saves, the potion still deals over 30 poison damage on average.

[Joe the Rat]

How about combining effects - heals as a potion of healing, then roll a CON save or be poisoned, and take 1d4 damage a round (save ends). If they can the save in under 3 tries, they'll be back to start or better on HP.

Just be very clear about which bottle they grabbed when you roll it. If you didn't give the vial a description, note the different size/shape, or say "the potion you found," or make clear afterward that this is different from the other potion bottles so they don't go super-paranoid... unless that's what you want.

[pwykersotz]

This is a tough situation. The players need to be able to trust the GM, and even if it was their inattention that led them to miss your ambiguity, it wasn't really an interesting choice that can lead to interesting situations, so it will probably feel like a bit of a screw. On the other hand, calling attention to the potion is just tipping your hand and ensuring they will pay special attention to it.

Here's an idea. As soon as possible, give them a reason to examine their equipment. Perhaps an enemy "curses" them: "May your weapons turn against you and your blankets strangle while you sleep!" It doesn't necessarily need to be accompanied by an effect which does it, but it could. This gives them a realistic reason to examine their gear without being specifically informed of the potion. Don't call for a roll unless they say they are checking out the potions in particular, and even then the roll should give a clue, not solve the problem (Such as: You verify your potions carefully. The two orange potions that you got at the village are intact, and dark yellow tinted one you got in the dungeon is too, none of them appear to have been affected by that curse). This would be the second clue, the ambiguous description being the first. We want three.

A third clue could be the next time a sufficiently powerful magical force or literal impact is in the area, describe how it squeezes the air from their lungs, and they hear the sounds of creaking wood (their shields and such) and cracking glass. This will give them the indication to check the vials specifically, but again, not to tip your hand over the potion itself. Again, give no overt details, but describe a subtle difference. (Such as: "The scent of a spring breeze fills your nostrils as you pour your potions into new uncracked vials. You inhale as you pour, enjoying the smell, but as you pour the last one, you sneeze several times. Too much of a good thing maybe?" Of course if they look at the vial they were pouring while they sneezed, it will be the dungeon one.)

So that's three chances, doesn't tip your hand, and if they fail to recognize it, they will at least recognize you gave them fair chances to find it. Hopefully that will be more satisfying for all involved.


Edit:
On that second example, try not to use a roll at all. I just realized that if you have them roll while looking at potions, that tips your hand as well. Maybe try to go off of passive Perception or Investigation instead.

Ugh...it's too early to be designing complex scenarios. :smalltongue:

[Calibus]

Oh dear lord my typo xD. I meant to say in all intents and purposes xD.

Alright. So this potion has a chance to be a completely unfun thing. I think i'll try to hint at the potion of poison more regularly. I'll give a con saving roll of DC15 to have the character vomit the poison. On failure he'll take full 3d6 poison damage. Second turn the character can vomit with a DC10 con save.

I mostly used random tables for the loot drops. Potion of poison just happened to be chosen. The party has not only the paladin for healing they have a half-elf rogue/bard/cleric skill monkey to provide any and all support and skill saves. The real issue tbh I believe is that my party really only ever used potions when stabilizing a fallen member. So more or less, the potion will be pulled out at that very moment. I'm sure the player will be mad. But I have saved the pdf treasure horde from where they picked it up.

If it ever happens that as a result this does cause a TPK then ill politely bow and the slow game of chance that ive been playing with them without their notice has born fruit. The DM won. Albiet in a cruel and unforgiving way, but the DM won none the less.

Edit: I'll still be hinting about the poison as often as i have a chance to. Vaguely hinting the clues of the dark evil nesting itself in the paladins pockets.

[gfishfunk]

So my group just finished a small dungeon. At the end of the dungeon there was a hidden cache of gems and gold for a level 3 group. In that cache was a potion of fire breath and a potion of poison looking like and if consumed tasting health potion.
For all intensive purposes i vaguely said it appears to be a health Potion. The party did not bother with any arcana. And gave the potion to our resident paladin who has a stash of 2 other actual health potions.

The question is, since the potion has been passed off as a healing potion. When and how should i handle this potion whenever a potion would be used or given? Should i roll a 1d (#ofPotions) whenever a potion is used? Is there a mechanic i am unaware of for this case scenario?

I would not screw with them like that without providing a LOT of forewarning. I do not think you gave them enough forewarning in this specific case. What will likely happen is that someone is going to be at the end of their HP and NEED the potion to keep living, and they will either die or go unconscious because of this.

Generally, when there is something that they should figure out, you give them three clues:
- This potion does not have a label.
- The potion has the same color of a healing potion, but is warm to the touch.
- The potion was set apart from the other potions OR earlier, the party saw a goblin reach for a potion on his belt, drink it, and say 'gah! wrong one!' And then keel over dead.

Things that are obvious to you as a GM are not obvious to players. Remember, this game is supposed to be fun, and you will likely be taking away the fun at this point.

What to do at this point:

1. It is now just a healing potion.
2. It is now just a really weak healing potion. It heals 1 or 2 hp.
3. Upon opening it, the paladin will be told 'the potion unexpectedly reeks. Upon exposure to air, it begins boiling furiously.' Let him either stow it or toss it as a ranged attack.

[Calibus]

I would not screw with them like that without providing a LOT of forewarning. I do not think you gave them enough forewarning in this specific case. What will likely happen is that someone is going to be at the end of their HP and NEED the potion to keep living, and they will either die or go unconscious because of this.

Generally, when there is something that they should figure out, you give them three clues:
- This potion does not have a label.
- The potion has the same color of a healing potion, but is warm to the touch.
- The potion was set apart from the other potions OR earlier, the party saw a goblin reach for a potion on his belt, drink it, and say 'gah! wrong one!' And then keel over dead.

Things that are obvious to you as a GM are not obvious to players. Remember, this game is supposed to be fun, and you will likely be taking away the fun at this point.

What to do at this point:

1. It is now just a healing potion.
2. It is now just a really weak healing potion. It heals 1 or 2 hp.
3. Upon opening it, the paladin will be told 'the potion unexpectedly reeks. Upon exposure to air, it begins boiling furiously.' Let him either stow it or toss it as a ranged attack.

If i was too obvious it wouldnt be fun. When I DMd for the very first time. A player walked up to me and said things have only gone too smoothly. No humps in the road. Nothing to worry about. The players need some level of distrust on the DM along with trust. I can't always play nice. I have to take my potshots at the party when i can. I'll warn them. Often as they rummage around in their pockets. Normally i wont narrate for potions when they pull it out. Maybe at a low level I'll halve the damage. At this point i only have two jobs: make a fun experience, and giving a challenge. I know my group really well. The victim will be mad as a honey badger. Maybe for a week or two. But he'll laugh it off and the party will be extra checky with the potions in the future. I might be tough but when you have 3/4 party members being powerplayers and talking with each other how each characters skills will cover anothers bases as each gears to multiclass and optimize their characters. I need to also prepare more interesting and surprising scenarios be it good or bad.

Again. I emphasize. I'll be hinting at them or have an npc make angry curses at the party as one person mention here. It's gonna be fun. Well for everyone except the poor sod if tge potion isn't discovered

[tieren]

This doesn't seem like that big of a deal, the paladin can just use Lay on Hands to cure the poison anyway. If it looks like he reaches for it in a real clutch moment that might cause a TPK maybe just have the Lay on Hands go off while hes holding the potion to purify it.

[gfishfunk]

If i was too obvious it wouldnt be fun.

I agree, despite what I said earlier. I prefer to use signposts early, get them on alert, and then try to slide it by. If that were the first poison potion, I would create tons of sign-posts. If it were the third, it would be in a bottle among the healing potions, but still missing the label - but so would another healing potion - or maybe simply mislabeled something like 'go big' crossed out.

I dislike hitting the PCs from out of left field.

You know your PCs, though, and you know what is really fun for them. At my table and at tables that I have played at, we would have said 'that's bull---t' under our breaths, and we would have had fun despite that occurring - it would not be enough to throw us off track, unless it led to a dead PC. We have PCs die here and there; -- when it feels like a screw job, that sucks. But, if it is fun at your table, go with it. That has not been my experience, however.

[MrStabby]

If the potion is really needed they grab a real one. If it wouldn't be funny they grab a real one. If it is enough to make a fight scary, but not to TPK then it's a good time to have them draw the potion.

[Calibus]

Which is likely what I'll do. Outright killing the party isnt my plan or intention. The potion os just there to make an encounter just a bit more difficult than originally intended.

[RickAllison]

Which is likely what I'll do. Outright killing the party isnt my plan or intention. The potion os just there to make an encounter just a bit more difficult than originally intended.

Another option for that can be bestowing the poisoned condition rather than damage

[Easy_Lee]

IMO, this kind of thing is cool when done right. Nobody wants to be killed by random chance, but pulling out a potion of, "not healing but totally makes you piss your pants" could be great. I'd make a plot point or lore piece of it.

[Tiber]

If that feels too contrived, you could have an NPC mention how they fell foul of a potion of poison a few years ago, or a shopkeeper say that they've seen a lot of fake potions on the market lately. Or a madman on the street corner ranting about how all potions are part of an evil government mind-control scheme, and imploring the PCs to throw theirs away.

Or you could do all three. Players can be kind of dense sometimes.

I think going in this direction is the best. Toss a hint into the story, and lead them to think about it on their own. Maybe if they encounter an intelligent enemy, have one of them try to drink a potion that ended up being not what they thought it was?

[lperkins2]

I don't actually see a problem with just letting the consequences fall where they may. Then again my players grew up playing nethack, so unidentified equipment (and especially magic items) only get used in dire emergencies. This sort of thing also works well in my group, since we use inventory cue cards, so the player may grab a potion randomly, but it isn't arbitrary on my part which card they pull. It's a bit harder if they just have a single inventory entry for '3 potions of healing', which is a problem because it means their inventory sheet is incorrect.

[Laserlight]

i vaguely said it appears to be a health Potion. The party did not bother with any arcana.

Unless you're houseruling or the potion is deliberately designed to appear as something else, they don't need Arcana. DMG p 136 says that potions are an exception to the Identify rules; one taste is enough to tell you what it is.

[Keltest]

If that feels too contrived, you could have an NPC mention how they fell foul of a potion of poison a few years ago, or a shopkeeper say that they've seen a lot of fake potions on the market lately. Or a madman on the street corner ranting about how all potions are part of an evil government mind-control scheme, and imploring the PCs to throw theirs away.

Or you could do all three. Players can be kind of dense sometimes.

I think this is a very good way to get rid of all health potions except for the poison.

[RickAllison]

Unless you're houseruling or the potion is deliberately designed to appear as something else, they don't need Arcana. DMG p 136 says that potions are an exception to the Identify rules; one taste is enough to tell you what it is.

To the SRD!

"This concoction looks, smells, and tastes like a Potion of Healing or other beneficial potion. However, it is actually poison masked by illusion magic. An Identify spell reveals its true nature."

[Calibus]

Unless you're houseruling or the potion is deliberately designed to appear as something else, they don't need Arcana. DMG p 136 says that potions are an exception to the Identify rules; one taste is enough to tell you what it is.

"This concoction looks, smells, and tastes like a potion of healing or other beneficial potion. However, it is actpally poison masked by illusion magic. An identify spell reveals its true nature." -DMG Pg.188

Its point is to do something of this nature. So I'm being nice by allowing an arcana check to discover the nature instead of an Identify spell.

"Arcana. Your Intelligence (Arcana) check measures your ability to recall lore about spells, magic items, eldritch symbols, magical traditions, the planes of existence, and the inhabitants of those planes." -PHB Pg.17

[Icewraith]

Give them another, more obviously cursed item with an immediate effect under non-life threatening circumstances. The players fail to ID the second item, suffer ill effects, hopefully realize they have other items they haven't IDed, and discover the potion.

Edit: Shouldn't Detect Magic pick up the illusion?

[lperkins2]

Edit: Shouldn't Detect Magic pick up the illusion?

Maybe, I mean, healing potions are magic, so it will show up regardless. If they spent an action on identifying the school, it would tell them illusion is present, instead of the expected school.

[Safety Sword]

Drinking strange liquids of unknown origin sounds like something that should be risky.

The characters do have the tools to work it out if they want to. If they don't want to, then don't worry about it and let them take their chances (literally?).

[Aelyn]

"This concoction looks, smells, and tastes like a potion of healing or other beneficial potion. However, it is actpally poison masked by illusion magic. An identify spell reveals its true nature." -DMG Pg.188

Its point is to do something of this nature. So I'm being nice by allowing an arcana check to discover the nature instead of an Identify spell.

"Arcana. Your Intelligence (Arcana) check measures your ability to recall lore about spells, magic items, eldritch symbols, magical traditions, the planes of existence, and the inhabitants of those planes." -PHB Pg.17

Arcana checks are, ultimately, Knowledge checks, so it doesn't make sense that an Arcana check would allow them to correctly identify the poison.

However, if there's any sort of reason for them to want to think about it - say, an enemy getting poisoned from a potion - an Arcana check should certainly be sufficient to know there are poisons out there disguised as potions, how they're disguised (illusion magic) and how to Identify these beyond a doubt.

I'd put the DC at 15, with Advantage for witnessing it happen to someone else first hand.

[Calibus]

So the very next session I introduced the deck of many things. The paladin drew the Talons card. GG potion of trolling.

[pwykersotz]

So the very next session I introduced the deck of many things. The paladin drew the Talons card. GG potion of trolling.

That is an amazing anti-climax to this thread. Well done. :smallsmile:

[Socratov]

So the very next session I introduced the deck of many things. The paladin drew the Talons card. GG potion of trolling.

Wow, just wow... I haven't seen an anti climax like that since the crew of HIMYM have geen leading me to believe that they would show the mother...

[RickAllison]

Slightly off-topic, but doesn't the Comet card (the one that gives you enough XP to reach the next level) let you reach 21? Or do you just get an Epic Boon?