Why do people hate the sorcerer?

[Sir cryosin]

I love the sorcerer. I love have sorcerers are innate magic casters. Yes they don't study to now how to use magic. But I would say using meta magic would take some kind of training to use properly. But this is all fluff let's get to the crunch.
So yes they get less spells know. But because of that they need to be creative in how to use them. There isn't a lot of book keeping and having to choose which spell to prepare every day. Let be honest people pick there spells and most of the time don't change out much. You don't have to protect a spellbook. Then there's the sorcerer saving grace meta-magic almost all of the options are nice to have. Now it might just be my preference. But I would like to see how other people see the sorcerer whether it's good or bad.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Apart from a bit of bemoaning the small list of spells known, I don't think I've seen any dislike for the sorcerer? :smallconfused:

[Ninja_Prawn]

So yes they get less spells know.

My impression is that this is the biggest problem. I (briefly) played a 1st level sorcerer: I had two spells to choose from. Two! Given that I needed Mage Armour, that means I have 1 slot with which I can cast 1 spell... all day. It's depressing. I appreciate that it gets better; I'm DMing for a sorcerer now who has developed a taste for Twinned Suggestion and that seems like a lot of fun, but for the first two levels, sorcery is painful.

[DanyBallon]

A theory of mine is that in 3.P they were much better than wizards, and now not so much. :smallbiggrin:

[Shaofoo]

My impression is that this is the biggest problem. I (briefly) played a 1st level sorcerer: I had two spells to choose from. Two! Given that I needed Mage Armour, that means I have 1 slot with which I can cast 1 spell... all day. It's depressing. I appreciate that it gets better; I'm DMing for a sorcerer now who has developed a taste for Twinned Suggestion and that seems like a lot of fun, but for the first two levels, sorcery is painful.

Well if you are a dragon sorcerer that takes care of the Mage Armor thing, plus unless you are dealing with a lot of ranged attackers I don't think mage armor would be all that needed. Plus Mage Armor takes an action so you can just save it until you really think you need the extra AC.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Well if you are a dragon sorcerer that takes care of the Mage Armor thing, plus unless you are dealing with a lot of ranged attackers I don't think mage armor would be all that needed. Plus Mage Armor takes an action so you can just save it until you really think you need the extra AC.

In that particular game, we were supposed to be exploring a trap-filled megadungeon, so it was safe to assume I'd need the AC. And yes, I was playing a wild mage. To be honest, it was a poorly-designed game; it should have been started at a higher level.

As an example, though, it definitely illustrates the shortcomings of the sorcerer class.

[dejarnjc]

In that particular game, we were supposed to be exploring a trap-filled megadungeon, so it was safe to assume I'd need the AC. And yes, I was playing a wild mage. To be honest, it was a poorly-designed game; it should have been started at a higher level.

As an example, though, it definitely illustrates the shortcomings of the sorcerer class.


I think that considering most groups spend maybe one session at the most at level one, that that's not necessarily the best example...





Most of the complaints about sorcerers tend to be that even though they already have a reduced spell list and fewer spells known than the wizard, the wizard tends to get more spell casts per day through arcane recovery. I'm not sure on how it all adds up personally but that's one of the more common complaints.

[JumboWheat01]

So yes they get less spells know.

I don't think it's JUST the less spells known, it's how LITTLE spells they have available to them at one time for a "full caster."

Just grabbed my book, so let's take a look.

Sorcerers - 15 Spells known by the end of their career.

Bards - 22 (24 if Lore) spells known, AND they can Ritual Cast.
Clerics - 30-35 spells PREPARED, thanks to Domains, and Ritual Casting.
Druids - 20-25 (28-33 if Land, thanks to Lands) spells PREPARED and Ritual Casting
Eldritch Knight Fighters (1/3 caster) - 13 spells known
Paladin (1/2 caster) - 20-25 spells PREPARED, thanks to Oaths
Rangers (1/2 caster) - 11 spells known
Arcane Trickster Rouge (1/3 caster) - 13 spells known
Warlock - 15 1st-5th level spells known, 1 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th level spell each (total 19)
Wizard - 20-25 spells PREPARED, Ritual Casting spells they know, no preparation needed.

Just... just look at that! The only classes that have less spells available to them are not even full casters! Heck, a half-caster like the Paladin, with all their other melee goodies, has more spells available to them that they can change up 10-15 of them each day! Sorcerers may have Meta Magic to mess around with their spells, but that's taking the few they have and trying to get something else out of them. But that causes them to burn through TWO resources, spell slots and spell points. Wizards, the only other caster on that list that doesn't gain combat abilities through armor and weapons, could simply use spell slots with a different spell, and if they realize that a certain style of spells is better suited to their current adventure, they can simply prepare a different list of spells to better suit the situation. Sorcerers? If you don't level up, you're stuck.

And it's also just a prejudice, but Sorcerers tend to be disposed to the Blasting roll, with little to no group support outside of "kill it with fire." (Or whatever element you may prefer.) I don't know about your games, but Blasting tends to be the least useful thing at our tables, crowd control, support and debuffs tend to work the best. Sure, you could build a Sorcerer for that but... if you run into something that resists or is immune to your spells, you're stuck slinging cantrips.


Now don't get me wrong, Sorcerers can be fun. I enjoy drawing up Sorcerers more than Wizards, since I need to plan my spells, or figure out a story behind the origins, but for a full caster, they are lacking.

[Kryx]

A theory of mine is that in 3.P they were much better than wizards, and now not so much. :smallbiggrin:
Sorcerers were worse in 3.X and 4e and are worse now. In 3.X and 4e there was far more support for a Wizard through splat books than Sorcerer, not to mention their core differences.

There has always been a Wizard bias.

Wizards of the Coast, not Sorcerers of the Plains.



Agreed with Jumbo above. The number of spells is awful. I make a few alterations to the Sorcerer to make it viable.
Here is a quote from a post I made a year ago:

Spells Known Concerns: The spells are limited in choice so therefore the increase in diversity is somewhat limited.
24 spells known is not beyond the power level that the sorcerer should be at.

The Arcane Trickster (a 1/3 caster) has 13 spells known.
The Bard knows 16 +6 from any class plus an additional 2 from any class if college of lore is taken for a total of 22-24 with 6-8 from any class..
The Cleric can prepare 25+10 of his spells.
The Druid can prepare 25+8 of his spells.
The Eldritch Knight (a 1/3 caster) has 13 spells known.
The Paladin can prepare between 13-15 spells at 20 and has 10 oath spells for a total of 23-25 prepared spells at 20.
The Warlock knows as many as the default Sorc (15)+4 from Mystic Arcanum plus invocations for a total of 19+.
The Wizard knows 44 total and can learn them all with gold (not a problem). He can prepare 25+2.

[Shining Wrath]

Who hates sorcerers?
I've seen some dislike for Wild Magic sorcerers because at low level bad luck can TPK. Other than that, they are a full caster with the ability to do creative and flavorful things with metamagic. When they hit 17th level and get Wish that means they gain access to every spell of every class of rank 8 or less, and can apply their metamagic to it. That's sweet.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Other than the few spells known (tentatively pushed in UA, then backpedalled), I dislike the fact that the subclasses push you into a flavour slot and you need houseruling just to get a customizable vanilla sorc. It'd be one thing if a setting element dictated that all sorcs are dragon-powered by nature, but now it just seems arbitrary.

[Coyote81]

I love the sorcerer. Although I guess I'm a bit biased because the one campaign of sorcerer I played was with the UA Favored soul, so I had an expanded spell list. I think this is the directions sorcerer subclasses should go. They should provide more spell options, not a ton, but some more. This will give them more utility and flavor, they don't need more damage spell options.

The SCAG storm sorcerer is very lackluster imo due to lack of any spells options. But other then spell lists, the sorcerer is amazing and I will play one despite the lack of spells.

[WickerNipple]

Oh great, now the sorcerers have a persecution complex.



The SCAG storm sorcerer is very lackluster imo due to lack of any spells options. But other then spell lists, the sorcerer is amazing and I will play one despite the lack of spells.

They really ruined it by taking out the bonus spells.

[Kryx]

Oh great, now the sorcerers have a persecution complex.
They've had one in every edition since 3.0.

In 5e for example they were nearly wiped out, but were resurrected in a later playtest.

[Pyon]

As a Wild Magic Sorcerer player mentioned earlier I love Sorc. You get twin spell which is so much fun. Suggestion is currently the most fun I can have with it. The level 1 free advantage is also a ton of fun. I've only had a wild surge happen once so far in a situation where a fireball would have been mass civilian murder. However instead I got some background theme music that helped savr the day. Overall it's a ton of fun. Sure wizards are wizards. But sorcerers? Sorcerers give yoi a unique experice of pure max buffs, debuffs and blasting.

[eastmabl]

Sorcerers are the caster class that still suffers from lower level caster syndrome. Until you get regular usage out of your metamagic and sorcery points, you're just a mediocre spellcaster. (For combat for levels 1-3, my halfing wild magic sorcerer was more effective dual wielding daggers than sitting back and spamming cantrips). Around level 5, you start to represent a solid spell caster.

I think that WOTC has (again) overvalued the flexibility of metamagic and given the sorcerer too little spells known to compensate for this ability. The spells known progression halves starting at 11th level when players get access to 6th level spells. I believe that this is because 6th level spells are generally considered rarer, but I feel that the designers probably missed the need for many lower level spells when converting sorcery points to spell slots.

It doesn't mean that you can't play an effective sorcerer. Sorcerers need to plan far in advance in terms of spell known, focus on how the spells scale into higher slots and look at metamagic options in terms of synergy for the spells known. They are the class that is perhaps best improved by taking the Ritual Caster feat (to shore up deficiencies).

If I was to "fix" the sorcerer, I would probably give it some more spells known - 21 total (2 at first level, one at each level thereafter). Everything else is pretty much fine.

[rollingForInit]

And it's also just a prejudice, but Sorcerers tend to be disposed to the Blasting roll, with little to no group support outside of "kill it with fire." (Or whatever element you may prefer.) I don't know about your games, but Blasting tends to be the least useful thing at our tables, crowd control, support and debuffs tend to work the best. Sure, you could build a Sorcerer for that but... if you run into something that resists or is immune to your spells, you're stuck slinging cantrips.


I don't think it's true that Sorcerers are predisposed to be blasters per se, but more that the limited number of spells known make them so. 15 spells known in total is more than enough for blasting and combat. Lots of stuff!

But if you want to be readily prepared for combat with both blasting and CC, there's pretty much no room left for spells that are great out of combat. Alter Self is great out of combat for infiltration, but it seriously competes with spells like Scorching Ray, Misty Step and Mirror Image. And you kind of only get 2 spells for every lower spell level.

There are so many situational spells that would be neat to have, but there's very little room for them in your arsenal. Charm Person is pretty useful, but not really prioritised when you consider stuff like Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Shield and Thunderwave.

So it feels to me as if the Sorcerer either ends up great at combat but sucking at non-combat, or he ends up a bit meh at combat and a bit meh at out of combat stuff.

Just no space for both combat and utility.

I really thought that the extra spells known that they went with during the UA iterations of subclasses was a great idea to introduce a controlled set of additional spells to the Sorcerer.

I wouldn't say that anyone hates the class, though. I've played and enjoyed playing one Sorcerer.

[AvatarVecna]

I love the sorcerer. I love have sorcerers are innate magic casters. Yes they don't study to now how to use magic. But I would say using meta magic would take some kind of training to use properly. But this is all fluff let's get to the crunch.
So yes they get less spells know. But because of that they need to be creative in how to use them. There isn't a lot of book keeping and having to choose which spell to prepare every day. Let be honest people pick there spells and most of the time don't change out much. You don't have to protect a spellbook. Then there's the sorcerer saving grace meta-magic almost all of the options are nice to have. Now it might just be my preference. But I would like to see how other people see the sorcerer whether it's good or bad.

I don't think people hate the Sorcerer (it's still got some good stuff, like metamagic and a solid 'combat blaster' niche), but when you take into account the limited number of spells known compared to every other caster, the complete lack of spells unique to the sorcerer, and the community's general distaste for random character elements (the focus of one of the two original sub-classes), it's easy to see why people prefer other casters.


A theory of mine is that in 3.P they were much better than wizards, and now not so much. :smallbiggrin:

Ha! That's funny! You're funny!

I will say that, at the highest levels of optimization, the difference between a sorcerer and a wizard, or indeed between any two full casters, was largely moot, as any super-high-op full caster is basically capable of rewriting reality on a whim. Nevertheless, at most levels of optimization other than the absolute highest, sorcerers are inferior to Wizards across the board. It's sort-of debatable that a good Beguiler build can give an enchanter or illusionist a run for its money, but a Sorcerer? Not without a heaping pile of char-op advantages; at equal optimization level, the wizard is superior.

[JumboWheat01]

Just no space for both combat and utility.

I really thought that the extra spells known that they went with during the UA iterations of subclasses was a great idea to introduce a controlled set of additional spells to the Sorcerer.

True, and their utility is severely hampered by no innate Ritual Casting, which only the Warlock (as a full caster) is also missing, but they can snag just fine without blowing an ASI on it, or needing 13 Wisdom or Intelligence.

While, admittedly, 14 Wisdom (for the +2 Mod,) certainly won't hurt anyone, and Sorcerers really only need to spend ASIs on Charisma, so their ASIs aren't fully eaten up, but having to blow a feat to get a feature (nearly) every other full caster has by default is a bit sad.

[Dalebert]

My sorlock is one of my favorite characters. I've been playing him a lot lately. Metamagic is a game-changer. He has a little bag of tricks that are just beyond my wizard like subtle spell Hexing someone during a negotiation so they have disadvantage on their social rolls. He can assassinate someone with a thought. He can double-Haste or double-Polymorph. I get that this means burning through resources faster but to be honest, I find it rare that those resources are an issue once you get past about 5th level. You just burn some slots for more points if needed. If you pack a hard punch with MM, you often need fewer punches. That said, I'm not certain he's more fun because MM or just because he's a more interesting character due to his personality. I think that's a lot of it, actually. He's my only evil character right now.

I still feel they're viable, but I do think they need about 5 more spells known and then their spells known is not quite so painful. In my homebrews, I give them a list of ten spells, two of each level from 1st through 5th, that is thematic for their type (like wild magic). In addition to their spells known from the sorc list, they get one freeby at each spell level from that list, and some of them are non-sorc spells. It's kind of like the warlock feature but a little bit better. Warlocks get access to yet more spells via invocations.

Being sorlock means I have a few more spells known, ritual casting, and more slots and points per day. It's a fun build but I do feel the pain at each level up of what I could have had if I'd gone full sorc.

[RedMage125]

Sorcerers were worse in 3.X and 4e and are worse now. In 3.X and 4e there was far more support for a Wizard through splat books than Sorcerer, not to mention their core differences.

I agree that in 3.P wizards were better, but...
I really don't think any comparison between the 4e versions is valid. How do you compare a Striker with a Controller? A fair comparison could be made between Warlock and Sorc, since both were Arcane Strikers, but that would usually end with Sorc on top, at least in terms of consistent DPR vis Action Economy.

Wizard had about as much support as sorcerer, unless you count 4e Essentials, but Essentials classes were basically different classes entirely.

At any rate, I agree that in 5e, Sorcerer's spells known are maddeningly low, but I've never seen any "hate" for the class, other than low-level TPKs caused by Wild Sorc and a bad roll. Most people seem to enjoy the class.

[Kryx]

At any rate, I agree that in 5e, Sorcerer's spells known are maddeningly low, but I've never seen any "hate" for the class, other than low-level TPKs caused by Wild Sorc and a bad roll. Most people seem to enjoy the class.
Agreed, it's not awful, but in comparison to wizard it doesn't stack up. It doesn't need a ton of changes, but some.

And I'd suggest swapping fireball for stinking cloud - funnier and without the insta death.

[JumboWheat01]

Agreed, it's not awful, but in comparison to wizard it doesn't stack up. It doesn't need a ton of changes, but some.

And I'd suggest swapping fireball for stinking cloud - funnier and without the insta death.

And you can blame it on the half-orc! I need to swing that idea to my DM. He'd probably love it.

[Regitnui]

And I'd suggest swapping fireball for stinking cloud - funnier and without the insta death.

Would that be the wild magic manifesting as digestive troubles?

[R.Shackleford]

The sorcerer is about 90% fantastic... It just missed the mark barely. But I haven't heard anyone, in real life, hate it.

The Sorcerer is your SWAT member. Specialized and deadly.

I highly suggest Careful spell and Subtle spell for maximum lol.


Edit

Careful Stinking Cloud is fantastic.

[mgshamster]

If the sorc's base spell point pool reset on a short rest, would that make them too powerful?

[R.Shackleford]

If the sorc's base spell point pool reset on a short rest, would that make them too powerful?

Possibly due to being able to covert spell points into spells.

[DanyBallon]

Ha! That's funny! You're funny!

I will say that, at the highest levels of optimization, the difference between a sorcerer and a wizard, or indeed between any two full casters, was largely moot, as any super-high-op full caster is basically capable of rewriting reality on a whim. Nevertheless, at most levels of optimization other than the absolute highest, sorcerers are inferior to Wizards across the board. It's sort-of debatable that a good Beguiler build can give an enchanter or illusionist a run for its money, but a Sorcerer? Not without a heaping pile of char-op advantages; at equal optimization level, the wizard is superior.

I must admit that the players I played with were not big optimizers, so that may explain why sorcerers was a favorite over wizards due to their ability to choose on the fly which spell to cast. Sure their known spells were less than a wizard, but they didn't care as they casted most of the time the same spells again and again. And for time when they needed a particular spell, there was always a scroll to do the trick.

[Socratov]

I think most people love sorcs. It's just that WotC has this tendency to overrate whatever toys they give the sorcerer. In 3.5 it was the ability to cast marginally more spells and spontaneous casting, in this edition it's metamagic, which while powerful, is, to quote another poster here, about 10% shy of the mark.

I think that a slight bump in number of spells, even if it would be 20 spells (1 for each lvl) and a decent capstone (as the current is bad, even when compared to the bard's which should be a bit more comparable), with an option to pick a spell form another list at 6, 12 and 18 (as a sort of mini magical secrets of sorts) would make the class a bit more competitive to the other casters, sacrificing versatility for more power and the ability to shake it up. I also think that the sorc should eventually get access to all metamagics. It is their main thing. It should be their main thing. And it wouldn't kill them to have it.

[Quintessence]

If the sorc's base spell point pool reset on a short rest, would that make them too powerful?

I honestly think they should just get their current capstone at level 5 and then just make a whole new capstone..

[R.Shackleford]

Get rid of Sorcery Points and make Metamagic a "per short rest" mechanic. You know all metamagics which is why you have less spells.

Start with 1per short rest and end with something like 5? Idk haven't thought of the balanced version of this, just a spitball.

Or you can perform Con mod metamagics per short rest (minimum 1) and you know them all.

I feel like that would make up for the sorcerer having less spells.

Now the spell list bugs me too but whatevet, that's a different fight (pick druid, cleric, or wizard spell list... That is your list, you cast arcane spells no matter which list you have).

[Sir cryosin]

Okay let me clarify here hate is a strong word and I probably shouldn't have used it what I mean is why does the sorcerer not get as much love as other casters. you guys and and when people ask about castors builds, guides or suggestions and stuff like that.

[R.Shackleford]

Okay let me clarify here hate is a strong word and I probably shouldn't have used it what I mean is why does the sorcerer not get as much love as other casters. you guys and and when people ask about castors builds, guides or suggestions and stuff like that.

It does get a lot of love, giantitp is not a very good indication of the typical D&D gamer.

[DireSickFish]

Sorcerers are very very good at blasting. They struggle outside of that role.

As others have mentioned there lower spells known is a problem, but not a crippling one.

I was out to make a control oriented Sorcerer with Heightened Spell. We started at lvl9 so I got to bypass a lot of play. Banishment was amazing but my spell list had the big problem that most of them were concentration. At high levles I had to start taking damage spells like disintegrate because the bigbies spells weren't there. And wall of force is also missing from there possible spells known.

A sorcerer should be able to, with there new metamagic setup, be better than a wizard in there chose role but have less flexibility. Having a list of spells available hampers that aspect.

Legendary saves also screw you hard if you aren't blasting because damage spells can still do work by either dealing half damage or being damage spells that require an attack roll instead.

That said being able to trade out lower lvl slots for higher level ones or metamagic via spell points can be epic. Not consistently useful, but great for facing off against a big bad.

[the secret fire]

I think the Sorcerer needs two things:

1) more sub-classes. The other "primary casters" get seven domains (Cleric) and eight schools of magic (Wizard). The Sorcerer gets two sub-classes, and both are extremely specific in terms of flavor. There need to be more thematic options available.

2) the most wide-open spell list in the game. Seriously, the Sorcerer's magic is wholly innate, and comes from inscrutable sources. Why should a Sorcerer, of all classes, be unable to throw out an illusion and follow it up with Freedom of Movement, or whatnot? The Sorcerer's limited selection of spells known should be balanced by access to every spell in the game. This would make him much narrower than the Wizard (which is clearly working as intended), but also more customizable, and access to awesome hard-to-get spells like Faerie Fire, etc. will allow the Sorcerer to at least get a lot of mileage out of the short, spammable list of options he does have, even at low levels.

[Spiritchaser]

I think sorcerer works fine as a multiclass, but if I were to start DMing again (unlikely), I'd let them pick a domain or other class list of additional spells known that made sense, or I'd let them add their charisma bonus to spells known. I'd also allow them to rework spells known between adventures.

[Specter]

If by people you mean Wizards of the Coast, then yes, people hate Sorcerers!

[R.Shackleford]

Sorcerers are very very good at blasting. They struggle outside of that role..

They do well at blasting but the Evoker Wizard beats it hands down.

The Sorcerer shines as a controller.

Twin Hold Person (you get a 3rd level spell when you cast cast 2nd level spells). Twin Haste?

Double concentrating on single target effects is amazing.

Careful Stinking Cloud?

Subtle a whole lot of spells during social events?

The Sorcerer can blast but that isn't their main power. It's sad that people think so, which might be why people look down on the sorcerer.

[Kryx]

I honestly think they should just get their current capstone at level 5 and then just make a whole new capstone..
That is what I do:


At 5th level you regain 2 expended Sorcery Points whenever you finish a short rest. This increases to 3 at 10th level, 4 at 15th level, and 5 at 20th level. See giantitp for comments on this

[Discord]

They do well at blasting but the Evoker Wizard beats it hands down.

The Sorcerer shines as a controller.

Twin Hold Person (you get a 3rd level spell when you cast cast 2nd level spells). Twin Haste?

Double concentrating on single target effects is amazing.

Careful Stinking Cloud?

Subtle a whole lot of spells during social events?

The Sorcerer can blast but that isn't their main power. It's sad that people think so, which might be why people look down on the sorcerer.

The problem with this is, that the Sorcerer get's Metamagics at levels 3, 10, 17. Meaning, to just do what you mentioned above can't happen until level 10 at the earliest.

I've suggested some house rolls for my players. The first one, is that the Sorcerer get's access to all Metamagics, however at levels 3, 10, 17, they gain 'proficiency' with those metamagics.

Any metamagic the sorcerer is not proficient in costs double sorcerer points. So that way the extremely situational metamagics will finally see some use.

As well, there was a document somewhere on there where Sorcerer's get bonus meta-magics depending on what Archetype they were which I thought was also needed due to their very low spells known.

I'm playing a Favored Soul Sorcerer, and I think one of the reasons I love it most is the extra spells known at certain levels.

[R.Shackleford]

The problem with this is, that the Sorcerer get's Metamagics at levels 3, 10, 17. Meaning, to just do what you mentioned above can't happen until level 10 at the earliest.

I've suggested some house rolls for my players. The first one, is that the Sorcerer get's access to all Metamagics, however at levels 3, 10, 17, they gain 'proficiency' with those metamagics.

Any metamagic the sorcerer is not proficient in costs double sorcerer points. So that way the extremely situational metamagics will finally see some use.

As well, there was a document somewhere on there where Sorcerer's get bonus meta-magics depending on what Archetype they were which I thought was also needed due to their very low spells known.

I'm playing a Favored Soul Sorcerer, and I think one of the reasons I love it most is the extra spells known at certain levels.

Twin at 3, gain Hold Person or Enlarge/Reduce as second level spell (twinning them essentially gives you a 3rd level spell).

Careful at 3, Web as a second level spell.

Subtle spell... Any spell cast during social interaction.

I'm not seeing the problem.

Careful Sorcerer (Web) + Evoker Wizard (Fireball) is a fun combo.

[DeAnno]

Sorcerer is a bit of a sad panda but it does have some things going for it. Similar to in 3.5e it does better with a more open game (in this case it wants Multiclassing and UA):

The Shadow Sorcerer from UA is pretty good. Darkness for one SP, Damage mitigation, and that bonus action Hound summon are all good abilities and you have them all by level 6. A lot of DMs will rule UA as unbalanced though, which is a shame because you need something like that to compete with Wizard; errata nerfed Dragon, spells known nerfed Storm, and mediocre Wild aren't enough.
Favored Soul is of course good, but if it ever sees another print it is likely to lose the bonus spells, and many DMs will take them away at this point since the same happened to Storm.
Multiclassing for Warlock 2 and Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Blast is quite good on a Sorc because of Quicken. Being 2 casting levels behind it almost feels a bit like a half caster for a lot of its career, but can compete with Martial DPS.
If you want to be a true half-caster, later you could even Multiclass Fighter 2 for Action Surge and Close Quarters Shooter. This is more UA fodder though and many DMs will cry foul at all this even though it's just dancing around the dysfunction of the base Sorcerer class more than anything.


And of course even the most stern of DMs can't say much about Sorcerers Twinning buffs like Haste, which is their other big mainstay this edition. Subtle Spell can be quite good in social situations too.

In conclusion I think given the full body of available content the Sorcerer class is ok, but they do need the full body of available content, not core-only, not no-multiclassing, etc.

[R.Shackleford]

Sorcerer is a bit of a sad panda but it does have some things going for it. Similar to in 3.5e it does better with a more open game (in this case it wants Multiclassing and UA):

The Shadow Sorcerer from UA is pretty good. Darkness for one SP, Damage mitigation, and that bonus action Hound summon are all good abilities and you have them all by level 6. A lot of DMs will rule UA as unbalanced though, which is a shame because you need something like that to compete with Wizard; errata nerfed Dragon, spells known nerfed Storm, and mediocre Wild aren't enough.
Favored Soul is of course good, but if it ever sees another print it is likely to lose the bonus spells, and many DMs will take them away at this point since the same happened to Storm.
Multiclassing for Warlock 2 and Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Blast is quite good on a Sorc because of Quicken. Being 2 casting levels behind it almost feels a bit like a half caster for a lot of its career, but can compete with Martial DPS.
If you want to be a true half-caster, later you could even Multiclass Fighter 2 for Action Surge and Close Quarters Shooter. This is more UA fodder though and many DMs will cry foul at all this even though it's just dancing around the dysfunction of the base Sorcerer class more than anything.


And of course even the most stern of DMs can't say much about Sorcerers Twinning buffs like Haste, which is their other big mainstay this edition. Subtle Spell can be quite good in social situations too.

In conclusion I think given the full body of available content the Sorcerer class is ok, but they do need the full body of available content, not core-only, not no-multiclassing, etc.

I like how your signature has The Mailman.

[Dalebert]

The sorcerer / warlock synergy is pretty good--being able to create spell slots with sorcery points and being able to recovery sorcery points with a short rest can be abused in just the right circumstances. I just make a point not to do that so I don't make the DM hate me. In most circumstances, it's still nice though. A sorcerer 4 / warlock 3 has the sorcerer capstone at 7th level.

[Knaight]

I must admit that the players I played with were not big optimizers, so that may explain why sorcerers was a favorite over wizards due to their ability to choose on the fly which spell to cast. Sure their known spells were less than a wizard, but they didn't care as they casted most of the time the same spells again and again. And for time when they needed a particular spell, there was always a scroll to do the trick.

That's less a matter of power and more one of convenience though. The wizard is a substantially more powerful class, particularly because of when spell levels are gained. A lot of people (myself included) prefer sorcerers though, because dealing with spell lists as a prepared caster is obnoxious.

[rhouck]

My sorlock is one of my favorite characters.

Same. I have a Half-Elf (Drow) 2 Lock (GOO) / 5 Wild Mage and it's a blast to play (full disclosure: my DM never says "no" when I ask to refresh Tides of Chaos by casting a sorcerer spell, so being a wild mage is fun).

Blasting is of course great. But there are other fun tricks like twinned Dissonant Whispers. Plus, between racial and class lists, I have 8 cantrips and 11 spells at 7th level. It certainly feels more limited than other full casters I have played (e.g., Druid, Cleric), but it's enough to have a good mix where I am not just relegated to blasting.

That said, the fact that I wanted a race with racial spells, as well as wanting to multiclass, says something about pure Sorcerer. IMO additional metamagic should come in at 6, 10, 14, 17 (instead of just 10 and 17), as they are the bread-and-butter of what makes the class stand out -- and some of them are far too situational to justify taking. And I also don't get why it doesn't just go +1 spell known/level all the way through 20. The list already feels cramped at low levels, and it seems unnecessary to prevent Sorcerers from filling out their spell list at later levels.

Wild Mage as written with all the "DM discretion" is terrible without a good DM as well, though that's an entire discussion of its own... I am thankful to have a DM (and party) that enjoys surges.

[R.Shackleford]

Holy hell is the wild mage bad due to the DM bullcrap. Probabaly should have copied the 4e Chaos Magic and been done with it even if that isn't the best chaos magic .

[Kryx]

Sorcerers are very very good at blasting.
No they aren't. An Evocation Wizard does more damage in a day.

Here is a comparison I did a long time ago: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H1SxsntIaK1IIHwJmR_6aUnUtZE6yWlP4vPzHQLE7Ak/edit#gid=1473051734

At 6 over 25 turns (a standard adventuring day) they both do about 695-695 damage.

At 11 a Wizard does 1721 damage, and a Sorcerer does 1438. It's not even close. Wizard has the better burst and better ability to avoid his allies.

[DireSickFish]

No they aren't. An Evocation Wizard does more damage in a day.

Here is a comparison I did a long time ago: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H1SxsntIaK1IIHwJmR_6aUnUtZE6yWlP4vPzHQLE7Ak/edit#gid=1473051734

At 6 over 25 turns (a standard adventuring day) they both do about 695-695 damage.

At 11 a Wizard does 1721 damage, and a Sorcerer does 1438. It's not even close. Wizard has the better burst and better ability to avoid his allies.

While I believe your numbers that isn't factoring in the per round damage you can do as a Sorcerer if you have a spell like Animate Objects, Telekenisis, or Sunbeam that uses up your action every round while you throw out quickend fireballs and the like.

That's the biggest trick I've seen besides twinned haste constantly brought up in the Sorcerers favor.

[Dalebert]

This is my procedure for my sorc 7 / lock 3 at the end of a day when he doesn't (particularly) need a long rest, like after a day of uneventful traveling in the Underdark. While everyone else is long resting, I'm getting in 5 short rests.

hours 1 through 4:
6 pnts into a 4th level slot. (balance 1)
lock spells into 4 pnts. (balance 5)
Meditate for 4 hours (a short rest).
1 lock spell to 2 pnts. (balance 7)
6 pnts into a 4th level slot. (balance 1)
Other lock spell to 2 pnts. (balance 3)

5th hour: Rest 1 hour.
Turn lock spells into 4 pnts. (balance 7)
Turn 6 pnts into a 4th level slot. (balance 1)

6th hour: Rest 1 hour.
Turn lock spells into 4 pnts. (balance 5)

7th hour: Rest 1 hour.
Turn one spell into 2 pts. (balance 7)
Turn 2 pts into 1st level spell. (balance 5)
Turn other lock spell into 2 pts. (balance 7)

8th hour: Rest 1 hour to have 2 lock spells back.

Now you have 3 extra 4th level slots and an extra 1st level slot and you still have all 7 sorc points and 2nd level lock spells. Four extra Polymorphs and a Shield ain't shabby.

Now technically you could keep doing this as long as you can avoid taking a long rest. I'm going to stop at one cycle of it just so I don't completely tick off my DM.

[Ruslan]

My impression is that this is the biggest problem. I (briefly) played a 1st level sorcerer: I had two spells to choose from. Two! Given that I needed Mage Armour, that means I have 1 slot with which I can cast 1 spell... all day. It's depressing.Be a Draconic Sorcerer. They get +3 AC for free and don't need Mage Armor, effectively doubling spell slots and spells known on level 1.

[Kryx]

While I believe your numbers that isn't factoring in the per round damage you can do as a Sorcerer if you have a spell like Animate Objects, Telekenisis, or Sunbeam that uses up your action every round while you throw out quickend fireballs and the like.

That's the biggest trick I've seen besides twinned haste constantly brought up in the Sorcerers favor.
I don't 100% believe them as it's been a while and I'm sure there are some slight optimizations. This was designed for adventuring day, but something like burst could be higher for the Sorcerer with quicken (at the cost of overall damage).

The point being people assume the Sorcerer's niche is damage to make up for the other debilitations, but damage is worse than an Evo Wizard (potentially getting some better burst though)

[Dalebert]

Given that I needed Mage Armour, that means I have 1 slot with which I can cast 1 spell... all day.

I just don't consider Mage Armor an option for sorcerers for this very reason. The only wild mage I have made was a hill dwarf (or whichever one has armor prof).


No they aren't. An Evocation Wizard does more damage in a day.

Action economy! Action economy! Action economy! (see my signature)
Enemies don't stand there casually and allow you all the time you want to dish out damage to them. Give each one an average of 3 rounds of combat and tell me which one out performs. And of course, that's based on a sorcerer actually built for blasting, e.g. twinned and quickened. I personally didn't go that route. Yes, a wizard will win a marathon but the sorcerer will win a sprint. When the going gets tough like for a boss fight, the sorc can dig deep and bring it. He will generally have to manage his resources better and in average to light fights maybe use more cantrips. That I'll give you.

[R.Shackleford]

I think there shouldn't have been an Evocation wizard as that niche could have been the Sorcerer's.

The wizard has way too many subclasses to begin with.

[Tvtyrant]

I agree that in 3.P wizards were better, but...
I really don't think any comparison between the 4e versions is valid. How do you compare a Striker with a Controller? A fair comparison could be made between Warlock and Sorc, since both were Arcane Strikers, but that would usually end with Sorc on top, at least in terms of consistent DPR vis Action Economy.

Wizard had about as much support as sorcerer, unless you count 4e Essentials, but Essentials classes were basically different classes entirely.

At any rate, I agree that in 5e, Sorcerer's spells known are maddeningly low, but I've never seen any "hate" for the class, other than low-level TPKs caused by Wild Sorc and a bad roll. Most people seem to enjoy the class.

Wizards in 4E had a higher damage output then Sorcerers if they wanted it. Rather like Fighters in that game, they were so good they blurred into multiple rolls by pure power.

[famousringo]

While I believe your numbers that isn't factoring in the per round damage you can do as a Sorcerer if you have a spell like Animate Objects, Telekenisis, or Sunbeam that uses up your action every round while you throw out quickend fireballs and the like.

That's the biggest trick I've seen besides twinned haste constantly brought up in the Sorcerers favor.

Wizards of all kinds get to pull that trick earlier with spells like Flaming Sphere and Bigby's Hand, and they don't have to burn extra resources to do it. Twinned Haste isn't bad, but it's overrated.

And what Evokers get to accomplish with a humble Magic Missile is just ridiculous. At least Scorching Ray + Elemental Affinity abuse had to contend with misses and resistance before it got nerfed.

The fluff and class abilities make sorcerer out to be a great blaster, but they're really champion debuffers.

[R.Shackleford]

Wizards of all kinds get to pull that trick earlier with spells like Flaming Sphere and Bigby's Hand, and they don't have to burn extra resources to do it. Twinned Haste isn't bad, but it's overrated.

And what Evokers get to accomplish with a humble Magic Missile is just ridiculous. At least Scorching Ray + Elemental Affinity abuse had to contend with misses and resistance before it got nerfed.

The fluff and class abilities make sorcerer out to be a great blaster, but they're really champion debuffers.

They also laugh at Counter spell if they use subtle spell.

I'm actually starting to think Subtle Spell is OP due to just how often you can use it outside of Battle and the in battle uses. (OP in a great way)

[Quintessence]

They also laugh at Counter spell if they use subtle spell.

I'm actually starting to think Subtle Spell is OP due to just how often you can use it outside of Battle and the in battle uses. (OP in a great way)

If I ever made a sorcerer guide, I would rate it gold on the rating scale... There are just so many great uses and such.

[R.Shackleford]

If I ever made a sorcerer guide, I would rate it gold on the rating scale... There are just so many great uses and such.

Omg yes.

I think the highest I've seen it rated was black and I laughed so hard...

The last time I used it was at a wedding. I was being paid to make sure nothing went wrong. "If anyone has any reservations please say them now or hold your peace". A dashing rogue got a face full of subtle hold person as he was about to speak up about the love of his life...

Best 1k gp my character ever made.Plus the father owed me a favor.

[Quintessence]

Omg yes.

I think the highest I've seen it rated was black and I laughed so hard...

The last time I used it was at a wedding. I was being paid to make sure nothing went wrong. "If anyone has any reservations please say them now or hold your peace". A dashing rogue got a face full of subtle hold person as he was about to speak up about the love of his life...

Best 1k gp my character ever made.Plus the father owed me a favor.

That is fantastic, great use lol

Yeah, people really only think about Quicken and Twinned. It is a complete shame, what about the manacled sorcerer who still blasts his foes to little bits ;)

[Professor Gnoll]

Omg yes.

I think the highest I've seen it rated was black and I laughed so hard...

The last time I used it was at a wedding. I was being paid to make sure nothing went wrong. "If anyone has any reservations please say them now or hold your peace". A dashing rogue got a face full of subtle hold person as he was about to speak up about the love of his life...

Best 1k gp my character ever made.Plus the father owed me a favor.
It's usually rated black because it's not as directly useful in combat as the other metamagics. Guides have a hard time rating things outside of combat, because different campaigns feature different levels of roleplaying and allow different actions while roleplaying. This makes Subtle Spell's power vary wildly depending on the campaign and DM, which makes rating it gold not really viable.

[Quintessence]

It's usually rated black because it's not as directly useful in combat as the other metamagics. Guides have a hard time rating things outside of combat, because different campaigns feature different levels of roleplaying and allow different actions while roleplaying. This makes Subtle Spell's power vary wildly depending on the campaign and DM, which makes rating it gold not really viable.

Good luck counterspelling me when I use subtle spell, won't even know what hit them.

[R.Shackleford]

It's usually rated black because it's not as directly useful in combat as the other metamagics. Guides have a hard time rating things outside of combat, because different campaigns feature different levels of roleplaying and allow different actions while roleplaying. This makes Subtle Spell's power vary wildly depending on the campaign and DM, which makes rating it gold not really viable.

Subtle spell can be used so you don't go into combat (they don't see you, hear you, or think you cast the spell), you can't counter spell a subtle spell, when using illusions it isn't obvious that you *just cast an illusion*, when you are grappled or tied up you can still cast.... That's just SOME of the direct combat applications of the spell. All top tier uses of the metamagic.

You can actually have a caster go with the rogue (or AT/Sorcerer) and not be a hindrance on stealth when you cast a spell.

Like... There is no way Subtle Spell isn't gold even when you talk about combat situations.


Edit

I'm sure there is a Sorcerer grapple build out there that relies on grappling and then casting spells.

[DireSickFish]

Good luck counterspelling me when I use subtle spell, won't even know what hit them.

That's not the point he was making at all. What if my game includes literally 0 casters that have counterspell? And I have very few social situations where casting will solve the problem? Then subtle spell rapidly drops in usefulness. Whereas quicken and twined (and heightened, just as strong IMO) will be useful in any game that has combat.

Now with your DM or style of play combat could come up less often and these metamagic are less useful and subtle spell is godly. That's fine, but a general guide should look at how a standard adventure day as a baseline.

[Quintessence]

That's not the point he was making at all. What if my game includes literally 0 casters that have counterspell? And I have very few social situations where casting will solve the problem? Then subtle spell rapidly drops in usefulness. Whereas quicken and twined (and heightened, just as strong IMO) will be useful in any game that has combat.

Now with your DM or style of play combat could come up less often and these metamagic are less useful and subtle spell is godly. That's fine, but a general guide should look at how a standard adventure day as a baseline.

I can't really think of a time when subtle spell won't be great in a social situation, suggestion or any number of other charms always work.

[Dalebert]

Subtle Spell can also aid greatly with concentration checks with intelligent enemies.

"Bob, use your shape-changing powers!"

Cast Polymorph with subtle spell but hold it to go off on one of Bob's actions. Now no one is targeting you to end the spell. Bob with all his temp HP is the target.

I still want to assassinate someone in public with it. Have your unseen servant open the tavern door. Cast Minor Illusion to make some creepy ghost sounds. Have it knock over a chair on the way to the victim. Subtle Spell Phantasmal Force. The victim is the only one who sees the ghost but everyone hears it. He dies clutching at his throat and staring at something terrifying. Meanwhile, you're across the bar sipping on your tea or maybe acting just as shocked as everyone else. Bonus points if you researched someone he knows who died recently and make that the illusion.

[famousringo]

They also laugh at Counter spell if they use subtle spell.

I'm actually starting to think Subtle Spell is OP due to just how often you can use it outside of Battle and the in battle uses. (OP in a great way)

I used it on pretty much every spell last session. One character is in a duel and nobody is to interfere? Well, he's Hasted now. Maybe he always moves that fast. Then the shadow monk and I bottled up some enemies in a Silenced room and took them out without anybody else in the complex being the wiser.

I've used Subtle about as often as I've used Twin. I expected it to be handy, but even I'm surprised by just how handy it is.

But yeah, the tiny spell list hurts. More than once, I've been ready and willing to spend resources, but I just didn't have a suitable spell to cast, so, uh, Twin Firebolt I guess. Woo.

[R.Shackleford]

I used it on pretty much every spell last session. One character is in a duel and nobody is to interfere? Well, he's Hasted now. Maybe he always moves that fast. Then the shadow monk and I bottled up some enemies in a Silenced room and took them out without anybody else in the complex being the wiser.

I've used Subtle about as often as I've used Twin. I expected it to be handy, but even I'm surprised by just how handy it is.

But yeah, the tiny spell list hurts. More than once, I've been ready and willing to spend resources, but I just didn't have a suitable spell to cast, so, uh, Twin Firebolt I guess. Woo.


Try playing a Sorcerer who has access to the druid spell list +1 land circle.

Pure awesome sauce.

My sorcerer got thrown off a cliff as a reaction to my sorcerer moving (OA turned into a shove or "throw") used my action to use thorn whip and then thorn whip again. As the creature fell my wizard friend used a reaction to cast feather fall (who learned that spell specifically because we were going into the mountains).

Also twin heat metal was fun.

[the secret fire]

Try playing a Sorcerer who has access to the druid spell list +1 land circle.

Pure awesome sauce.

Yes, this. Simply opening up the Sorcerer's access to spells is one of the most elegant, and quite possibly best solutions to the problems the class faces. Is my suggestion to give the class access to every spell in the game going too far? I don't really think so.

[R.Shackleford]

Yes, this. Simply opening up the Sorcerer's access to spells is one of the most elegant, and quite possibly best solutions to the problems the class faces. Is my suggestion to give the class access to every spell in the game going too far? I don't really think so.

I would say give them access to all cantrips and then let them pick the list they take spells from. Maybe every 4 or so levels they can pick a new spell list or go back to a previous spell list.

[famousringo]

Try playing a Sorcerer who has access to the druid spell list +1 land circle.

Pure awesome sauce.

My sorcerer got thrown off a cliff as a reaction to my sorcerer moving (OA turned into a shove or "throw") used my action to use thorn whip and then thorn whip again. As the creature fell my wizard friend used a reaction to cast feather fall (who learned that spell specifically because we were going into the mountains).

Also twin heat metal was fun.

Yeah, damn, that would be a lot of spells.

I was planning to dip wizard to alleviate the spells known pressure myself, but since I'm a halfling that got his mitts on Goggles of Night and Gloves of Thievery, I've decided to go rogue instead.

You know what's better than using Mage Hand Legerdemain to mess with everybody's stuff?

Using Subtle Mage Hand Legerdemain to mess with everybody's stuff. I'm going to be absolutely insufferable.

[Regitnui]

It would be problematic to give the sorcerer the whole wizard list, because then they're strictly better. Or would it?

[Kane0]

- A few more spells known (preferably bonus that links into bloodline like a clerics domains, paladin's oath, warlocks bonus spell options, etc)
- Fix up that crappy capstone (I like to give 1 Sorcerery point recovered for every 2 hit dice spent to heal during a short rest at level 2, then give +4 Cha as capstone)
- Optionally allow Sorcerers to use spell point casting to differentiate them from the other vancian style casters

You'll find it far more entertaining with some or all of those.

[Quintessence]

It would be problematic to give the sorcerer the whole wizard list, because then they're strictly better. Or would it?

It wouldn't change number of spells known, it would just expand their horizons and allow them to be played as more than blasters.

[the secret fire]

I would say give them access to all cantrips and then let them pick the list they take spells from. Maybe every 4 or so levels they can pick a new spell list or go back to a previous spell list.

Or maybe do away with the Sorcerous Origin class feature, entirely, and then let them pick from multiple spell lists simultaneously (the origin remains as fluff, then)? The Sorcerous Origins (the three that exist) are a straight jacket on the class, anyway - far too specific to cover the full range of a Sorcerer's sources of power. Getting rid of them and opening up the spell lists gives the class the diversity it deserves.

[Kryx]

Or maybe do away with the Sorcerous Origin class feature, entirely, and then let them pick from multiple spell lists simultaneously (the origin remains as fluff, then)? The Sorcerous Origins (the three that exist) are a straight jacket on the class, anyway - far too specific to cover the full range of a Sorcerer's sources of power. Getting rid of them and opening up the spell lists gives the class the diversity it deserves.
Bard gets to pick 6 from any 1 class and that's really strong. This seems like a bad idea.

Instead, stick to the fluff of sorcerous origins which makes a lot of sense, but expand them to things like Fiend, Fey, etc as needed. Each one gets a list of 10 spells of levels 1-5 (or 1-6) known. Total of 15 spells known from the sorcerer list and 10 from a set list is totally balanced.

[the secret fire]

Bard gets to pick 6 from any 1 class and that's really strong. This seems like a bad idea.

Instead, stick to the fluff of sorcerous origins which makes a lot of sense, but expand them to things like Fiend, Fey, etc as needed. Each one gets a list of 10 spells of levels 1-5 (or 1-6) known. Total of 15 spells known from the sorcerer list and 10 from a set list is totally balanced.

So what you're saying is that the Sorcerer needs splatbook support? I think a principled objection to splat as a "fix" for underpowered/uninteresting classes shouldn't need too much explanation.

But I also dislike the idea that we should define, by way of long lists of origins, what it means to be a Sorcerer. Sorcerer is the one class in the game whose ontology is, in theory at least, completely open-ended. From whence does the Sorcerer's magical power come? We can more-or-less answer that question for the other spellcasting classes (a bit less of the Bard, I suppose) because their powers are derived from foundational principles of the setting - namely that powerful beings (gods, demons, "nature", etc.) grant their powers to the faithful, and that the principles and practices of magic can be studied and "learned" in an organized, formulaic, pseudo-scientific manner.

But where does the Sorcerer fit in? Here is a quote from the Players' Handbook (pg.99)


Some sorcerers can’t name the origin of their power, while others trace it to strange events in their own lives. The touch of a demon, the blessing of a dryad at a baby’s birth, or a taste of the water from a mysterious spring might spark the gift of sorcery. So too might the gift of a deity of magic, exposure to the elemental forces of the Inner Planes or the maddening chaos of Limbo, or a glimpse into the inner workings of reality.

This is essentially a non-answer. The old "bloodline" business was at least an explanation, though a needlessly limited one, but a Sorcerer's "origin" in 5th ed. is much more open-ended. Why can't a Sorcerer be that child who found an alien artifact, the hapless rube who was granted uncanny powers in an alchemical experiment, the scruffy goblin who is a living portal to another dimension, etc.? The game says he can be, but the mechanics say otherwise.

The problem here is the yawning gap between the description of the Sorcerer from the PHB and the mechanical implementation of same. If genuine diversity is the goal, more options within a single framework is better design than a long list of narrowly-defined subclasses. By far the easiest way to go about doing this is to open up the spells available to the class, and simply let the players make their own decisions.

[Kryx]

So what you're saying is that the Sorcerer needs splatbook support?
The Wizard has 8 archetypes in the PHB and 1 or 2 outside of it. That's 9-10.

I'm suggesting that a Sorcerer should have the exact same situation. The whole fluff of the Sorcerer is his origin. Much like a warlock has a fey patron a Sorcerer should have a fey origin, a demon origin, a hag origin, etc etc.


To take your quote:

Some sorcerers can’t name the origin of their power, while others trace it to strange events in their own lives. The touch of a demon, the blessing of a dryad at a baby’s birth, or a taste of the water from a mysterious spring might spark the gift of sorcery. So too might the gift of a deity of magic, exposure to the elemental forces of the Inner Planes or the maddening chaos of Limbo, or a glimpse into the inner workings of reality.
A Sorcerer may not be able to name their origin, but that origin surely affects the manifestation of their power. It's like "bloodline-lite".



Why can't a Sorcerer be that child who found an alien artifact, the hapless rube who was granted uncanny powers in an alchemical experiment, the scruffy goblin who is a living portal to another dimension, etc.? The game says he can be, but the mechanics say otherwise.
That's a different vision of Sorcerers than I expect from a 3.X and 4e, and to a lesser extent from a 5e perspective. However you could make an origin that is generally vague. Wild Magic is a good example.


Sorcerer Bloodline should not just be about spells. It is far more. See Draconic and Storm for examples - the whole flavor of the class is dependent on those bloodlines. I like that design.

[Regitnui]

Bard gets to pick 6 from any 1 class and that's really strong. This seems like a bad idea.

Instead, stick to the fluff of sorcerous origins which makes a lot of sense, but expand them to things like Fiend, Fey, etc as needed.

Here's a thought; perhaps Sorcerer and Warlock complement each other flavour-wise. Where do the established Warlock powers come from? Fiends, faeries, eldritch abominations and immortals. Sorcerer powers? Dragons, wild magic, the sea and maybe gods. See the difference? The warlock power sources are sinister, while the sorcerer power sources are neutral or even good. If that holds, there's a good reason why we haven't gotten more of the bloodlines applied to the sorcerer; because they're part of the warlock now!

Elemental bloodlines would still be safe under the sorcerer's fluff (though the 4e monk sits in this creative space), as would a theoretical 'wellspring' power hailing from nature (maybe stepping on the druid's toes). A desert origin would be great, perhaps reflecting the storm's aspects of air and water in a series of fire and earth powers. A titanic origin, touched by immeasurably old beings like the Empyreans or demigods, is another great option.

So, if a sorcerer has "good" or "neutral" origins as opposed to the warlock's "evil" or "forbidden", we've got a few possible expansions:

Desert: You wandered for many days in a place seen by most to be without life and water. You might have even died, you're not sure. In the end, however, you found yourself back in civilization. But your time in the wastelands had changed you...
Focusing on Fire, ground and maybe radiant spells, the desert origin could offer temporary HP boosts, light-based abilities flavoured on the desert sun, and perhaps a buff that causes targets of radiant or fire damage to suffer disadvantage or some other mechanical effect of being temporarily dehydrated.
Titan: In your youth, you saw something most never see; an awakened animal in the forest, a demigod walking the streets, or a mischevious sprite took an interest in you. The experience sparked something inside you, a realization that the mortal world is just a collection of rules and blindfolds, that the truly gifted can see beyond.
The Titan origin would focus on fear effects, buffing by way of haste and magic weapon, and summoning. Think of it like what would happen to a druid were they raised in a city without nature in sight; the wildness within them starts boiling over. A naturally gifted child from a barbarian tribe may also become one of these. It's a generic "divine nature" mage, covering benevolent fey.
Favoured Soul: Yeah, we need a finalized version. You all know the fluff.


Anyone got.other suggestions I could fluff?

[Kryx]

Making a pact with a demon is rather different than being born with demon blood (likely as the result of a demon taking advantage of a woman). In effect they could be similar, or the Sorcerer could reject it and hunt demons. It all depends. I understand why they don't cross them over, though I wouldn't take that path.

Pathfinder has a lot of bloodline ideas: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines

[Pope Scarface]

I dislike that they picked Wild Mage as the second core archetype. I would have liked pretty much anything else.

[fearsomepirate]

That's kind of funny, because Wild Magic is a perennially popular choice at my table. Tides of Chaos is powerful ability if the DM isn't stingy with Wild Magic Surge.

Given that metamagic means the sorcerer hits harder and more often than the wizard, it seems entirely fair to me that it has a more constricted range of spell options. Maybe it's overly constricted, but considering the sorcerer can do things like use Disengage followed up by Quickened Spell to deliver a Witch Bolt to the face and the wizard can't, I don't think it should simply draw from the same spell list. And you can cast Hold Person on two people earlier than the Wizard can, you can sustain a 1-minute effect across multiple encounters, you can sustain a 1-hour effect beyond a short rest, etc.

[Kryx]

Given that metamagic means the sorcerer hits harder and more often than the wizard, it seems entirely fair to me that it has a more constricted range of spell options.
They don't really hit harder due to the (just) limitations on 2 spells. There are some special cases where a concentration spell can use it's action (like call lightning) and the caster can use a non concentration spell like fireball. But those special cases already come at the cost of doing less damage over a whole day. Burst is nice and I agree that it's an advantage here, but the cost of such burst is far too high.

Indeed metamagic is nice, but in many cases these effects are already duplicated or better in Wizard archetypes. For example compare Careful spell vs Evocation Wizard's sculpt spells. Sculpt spells is better the create takes none on a save whereas careful still take half. These kind of comparisons have been made in many Sorcerer vs Wizard threads now.

Even if a Sorcerer receives 15+10 spells that's far less than a Wizard's 44 spells known + as many as the DM wants to give him. Not only that, but he can prepare 25+2 and he can swap them out as needed!

[JumboWheat01]

That's kind of funny, because Wild Magic is a perennially popular choice at my table. Tides of Chaos is powerful ability if the DM isn't stingy with Wild Magic Surge.

I think you explained the reason right there. Wild Magic Surges, the whole point of being a Wild Sorcerer, is absolutely and totally reliant on the DM. As far as I can recall off the top of my head, it's the only (sub-)class in the PHB that says the DM can let you do roll on the table, they don't have too at all. What's the point of playing something if you may not be using your class-given ability at all? Dragon Sorcerers, on the other hand, are entirely able and using their abilities all the time, unless a DM flat out goes against the book.

[DireSickFish]

That's kind of funny, because Wild Magic is a perennially popular choice at my table. Tides of Chaos is powerful ability if the DM isn't stingy with Wild Magic Surge.

Given that metamagic means the sorcerer hits harder and more often than the wizard, it seems entirely fair to me that it has a more constricted range of spell options. Maybe it's overly constricted, but considering the sorcerer can do things like use Disengage followed up by Quickened Spell to deliver a Witch Bolt to the face and the wizard can't, I don't think it should simply draw from the same spell list. And you can cast Hold Person on two people earlier than the Wizard can, you can sustain a 1-minute effect across multiple encounters, you can sustain a 1-hour effect beyond a short rest, etc.

While meta magic is a cool thing that Wizards don't get. Wizards also get arcane recovery and a big boost via sublcass that Sorcerers don't.

As pointed out before Evocer Wizards make the best blasters due to the subclass. Which sort of puts a damper on the idea that the Sorcerer is the best blaster. While also having a much wider selection of spells, and more spells per day.

I still think the sorcerer is a good blaster, and doesn't lag behind power wise to the other classes. It just feels constrained and undercut compared to other classes. Which is weird for a class that's supposed to be spewing magic without thought or study all over the place.

[dev6500]

Indeed metamagic is nice, but in many cases these effects are already duplicated or better in Wizard archetypes. For example compare Careful spell vs Evocation Wizard's sculpt spells. Sculpt spells is better the create takes none on a save whereas careful still take half. These kind of comparisons have been made in many Sorcerer vs Wizard threads now.


I would not be so quick to claim that sculpt spells is better than careful spell. While sculpt spells does not have a cost and it also removes all damage from the specified targets, careful spell has some advantages of its own.

1. It applies to more than evocation spells.
2. not all spells it can apply to are save for half. So there are many spell options you can use it with where it removes all risk for your players.

I have used it to great effect with stinking cloud and web. Also add in shield master and then your character can personally use it like they would use sculpt spells.

[Kryx]

1. It applies to more than evocation spells.
This is true, but the case was being made for blasting - which is mainly evocation spells. I agree there are some other uses like Stinking Cloud.

The main difference between Sculpt Spells and Careful spell is Sorcerer is spending a resource. If the Sorcerer's niche is blasting (which WotC have said), then the Sorcerer's resource to avoid allies should be as good as the Evo Wizard's. I would argue that the ability to use it on spells like stinking cloud is the benefit for the resource cost.

So I'd suggest adding the "and they take no damage if they would normally take half damage on a successful save" to careful spell. Then it feels balanced.

[fearsomepirate]

They don't really hit harder due to the (just) limitations on 2 spells. There are some special cases where a concentration spell can use it's action (like call lightning) and the caster can use a non concentration spell like fireball. But those special cases already come at the cost of doing less damage over a whole day. Burst is nice and I agree that it's an advantage here, but the cost of such burst is far too high.
I'm not following how any of this makes Empowered Spell not actually work.

Indeed metamagic is nice, but in many cases these effects are already duplicated or better in Wizard archetypes. For example compare Careful spell vs Evocation Wizard's sculpt spells. Sculpt spells is better the create takes none on a save whereas careful still take half. These kind of comparisons have been made in many Sorcerer vs Wizard threads now.
Yes, Sculpt Spell is better than Careful Spell. It's not obviously better than having both Careful Spell and another metamagic option of your choice. I think most of the comparisons miss the big picture. You have to consider the class as a whole, not individual features. And you have to consider the class evolution over time.

For example, an L5 Sorcerer can blow all her low-level slots and sorcery points to cast Fireball five times in a day. That might not be the best option, there are some published dungeons where that's basically pushing the "win" button. Either way, those sorcery points put options on the table that an Evoker of the same level doesn't have.

[R.Shackleford]

I'm not following how any of this makes Empowered Spell not actually work.

Yes, Sculpt Spell is better than Careful Spell. It's not obviously better than having both Careful Spell and another metamagic option of your choice. I think most of the comparisons miss the big picture. You have to consider the class as a whole, not individual features. And you have to consider the class evolution over time.

For example, an L5 Sorcerer can blow all her low-level slots and sorcery points to cast Fireball five times in a day. That might not be the best option, there are some published dungeons where that's basically pushing the "win" button. Either way, those sorcery points put options on the table that an Evoker of the same level doesn't have.

Blowing through SP makes your class features not work...

So, in order to be the best blaster you should have to give up other class features that make the sorcerer unique?

No twin, no quicken, no subtle, no careful... Just turn those into points for more spells (which I think has a bad exchange rate). Whereas the wizard can keep up with blasting and keep their unique features...

I'm not sure about others but I'm seeing the issue.

Edit

In 5e one thing makes the sorcerer truly unique, the fact that they have access to Metamagic. But in order for them to keep up with a blaster, even though sorcerers are sold as blasters, they have to give up those metamagics....

What's the point in having them if you can't use them to do your job?

[Kryx]

I'm not following how any of this makes Empowered Spell not actually work.
Empowered spell, while nice, is very comparable to Empowered Evocation of a Wizard (even after the errata).
See http://anydice.com/program/8bae. Normal fireball averages at 28. Empowered spell averages 36.39. Empowered Evocation averages 33.

Similar numbers on Scorching Ray:
http://anydice.com/program/8baf. 35, 44.17, 40.

Those numbers do inflate Empowered Spell a bit as it assumes you roll and take the highest, whereas Empowered keeps the newest result, but anydice can't math that as far as I'm aware.


Yes, Sculpt Spell is better than Careful Spell. It's not obviously better than having both Careful Spell and another metamagic option of your choice.
"You can use only one Metamagic option on a spell when you cast it, unless otherwise noted."
If you're saying on different spells then you have to compare that metamagic vs evocation savant, potennt cantrip, empowered evocation, and overchannel.


Regarding blowing all slots and sorcery points for fireball: 100% agree with Shackleford.


In the end: The Sorcerer and Wizard are different and those differences are fine, but the gap is a bit too wide. That can be solved by a few houserules:

Share Spell List with Wizard
Give all metamagics to Sorcerer (they'll take the strongest ones anyways, giving them the weaker ones doesn't imbalance things - same thing for Fighter manuevers)
Add "and they take no damage if they would normally take half damage on a successful save." to Careful Spell
Move Sorcerous Restoration to 5th level: "At 5th level you regain 2 expended Sorcery Points whenever you finish a short rest. This increases to 3 at 10th level, 4 at 15th level, and 5 at 20th level. See giantitp (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?427376-Wizards-vs-Sorcerer-Spell-List&p=19528547#post_19528547) for comments on this"
Give each origin 10 spells known from a set list. Lists I created a long time ago: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aGlSiAbLxyN04vmaOjDt1os3jVy9PhN2iNLvc19I7XU/edit

[R.Shackleford]

I dislike that they picked Wild Mage as the second core archetype. I would have liked pretty much anything else.

I feel like wild magic would have made a great campaign setting. Anytime you cast a non-cantrip spell something weird might happen? Mwuahahaha.

Have a few different lists based on race, class, weather, and day/night.

Set it up to mechanically work without "DM may I" bull crap and add in a few new elements to the world or whatever and you have yourself a new campaign setting that isn't just *forgotten realms again*, *dark sun again*, or *ebberron again*. Make new lore and characters for this setting and support it and I could see it doing well.

Though then again WotC can't handle anything other than the very bare bones of fantasy or settings so I'm asking for too much.

[Vogonjeltz]

My impression is that this is the biggest problem. I (briefly) played a 1st level sorcerer: I had two spells to choose from. Two! Given that I needed Mage Armour, that means I have 1 slot with which I can cast 1 spell... all day. It's depressing. I appreciate that it gets better; I'm DMing for a sorcerer now who has developed a taste for Twinned Suggestion and that seems like a lot of fun, but for the first two levels, sorcery is painful.

There's irony in that the Warlock is such a forum popular 2 level dip and yet it has virtually identical spells known progession to the Sorcerer.

The sorcerer does start with more cantrips and have access to metamagic for more powerful spellcasting with the limited spell selection they have.


I don't think it's JUST the less spells known, it's how LITTLE spells they have available to them at one time for a "full caster."

Just grabbed my book, so let's take a look.

Sorcerers - 15 Spells known by the end of their career.

Bards - 22 (24 if Lore) spells known, AND they can Ritual Cast.
Clerics - 26-31 spells PREPARED, thanks to Domains, and Ritual Casting.
Druids - 20-25 (26-31 if Land, thanks to Lands) spells PREPARED and Ritual Casting
Eldritch Knight Fighters (1/3 caster) - 13 spells known
Paladin (1/2 caster) - 16-21 spells PREPARED, thanks to Oaths
Rangers (1/2 caster) - 11 spells known
Arcane Trickster Rouge (1/3 caster) - 13 spells known
Warlock - 15 1st-5th level spells known, 1 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th level spell each (total 19)
Wizard - 20-25 spells PREPARED, Ritual Casting spells they know, no preparation needed.

Just... just look at that! The only classes that have less spells available to them are not even full casters! Heck, a half-caster like the Paladin, with all their other melee goodies, has more spells available to them that they can change up 10-15 of them each day! Sorcerers may have Meta Magic to mess around with their spells, but that's taking the few they have and trying to get something else out of them. But that causes them to burn through TWO resources, spell slots and spell points. Wizards, the only other caster on that list that doesn't gain combat abilities through armor and weapons, could simply use spell slots with a different spell, and if they realize that a certain style of spells is better suited to their current adventure, they can simply prepare a different list of spells to better suit the situation. Sorcerers? If you don't level up, you're stuck.

And it's also just a prejudice, but Sorcerers tend to be disposed to the Blasting roll, with little to no group support outside of "kill it with fire." (Or whatever element you may prefer.) I don't know about your games, but Blasting tends to be the least useful thing at our tables, crowd control, support and debuffs tend to work the best. Sure, you could build a Sorcerer for that but... if you run into something that resists or is immune to your spells, you're stuck slinging cantrips.


Now don't get me wrong, Sorcerers can be fun. I enjoy drawing up Sorcerers more than Wizards, since I need to plan my spells, or figure out a story behind the origins, but for a full caster, they are lacking.p.

Something to take into account:

Bards, Druids, Warlocks have 2 cantrips to start; Clerics and Wizards 3; EK and Trickster only get 2 at 3rd level.

Sorcerers have 4 to start, giving them the access to the widest array of on-demand magic for when the good stuff gets tapped out.

[SharkForce]

warlocks can get several extra spells (often at-will) with invocations. and even if they don't choose more spells, their invocations will let them do something interesting, generally speaking.

sorcerers don't have much like that... they might get one, maybe 2, pre-selected abilities from their subclass, but they don't get anything nearly as flexible and interesting as the warlock's 7 invocations. meanwhile, the warlock is also getting some similar abilities from their subclass. or whatever you call the thing that isn't their subclass. if you can tell which is which.

also, it especially isn't the same at higher levels, because only pact magic requires you to expend spells known. their 6th through 9th mystic arcanum options give them effectively 4 extra spells known on top of their invocations.

i really like the idea of the sorcerer. and the execution is so very close to what it needs to be to work. but it just falls short. just a little bit more and it would be fine.

[R.Shackleford]

warlocks can get several extra spells (often at-will) with invocations. and even if they don't choose more spells, their invocations will let them do something interesting, generally speaking.

sorcerers don't have much like that... they might get one, maybe 2, pre-selected abilities from their subclass, but they don't get anything nearly as flexible and interesting as the warlock's 7 invocations. meanwhile, the warlock is also getting some similar abilities from their subclass. or whatever you call the thing that isn't their subclass. if you can tell which is which.

also, it especially isn't the same at higher levels, because only pact magic requires you to expend spells known. their 6th through 9th mystic arcanum options give them effectively 4 extra spells known on top of their invocations.

i really like the idea of the sorcerer. and the execution is so very close to what it needs to be to work. but it just falls short. just a little bit more and it would be fine.


I kinda think that all (most) arcane casters could fall under one class.

At first level you determine *where* your magic comes from. "Arcane Source"

Knowledge: Wizard
Gift/Pact: Warlock
Blood: Sorcerer

First level just give cantrips and a feature and at second that is when they get 1st level spells. 3rd level is when they get a subclass...

Hmm... I have too much on my plate but this will be on my back burner... Thanks!

[Socratov]

I feel like wild magic would have made a great campaign setting. Anytime you cast a non-cantrip spell something weird might happen? Mwuahahaha.

Have a few different lists based on race, class, weather, and day/night.

Set it up to mechanically work without "DM may I" bull crap and add in a few new elements to the world or whatever and you have yourself a new campaign setting that isn't just *forgotten realms again*, *dark sun again*, or *ebberron again*. Make new lore and characters for this setting and support it and I could see it doing well.

Though then again WotC can't handle anything other than the very bare bones of fantasy or settings so I'm asking for too much.

I find that changing the die for wild magic surge form a d20 to a d4 makes it better. Not only does it happen a lot more frequently, but it still has a below 50% chance of triggering (and thus give that random feel of oh **** is gonna happen now!)

For the rest, yeah, Tides does depend a bit on the DM working with you instead of against you, but then again, doesn't anything in this edition?

[Regitnui]

Making a pact with a demon is rather different than being born with demon blood (likely as the result of a demon taking advantage of a woman). In effect they could be similar, or the Sorcerer could reject it and hunt demons. It all depends. I understand why they don't cross them over, though I wouldn't take that path.

Pathfinder has a lot of bloodline ideas: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines

There's a good list of origins, most of which trample on the design space of other classes or are frankly impossible. But there's some good stuff there. Thanks.

As for the specific case of demons; being born with demon blood is the entire schtick of the tiefling class. Wouldn't a "fiend origin" imply that the character's a tiefling anyway, even if they are a dragonborn? Not to say that you can't have fiendish blood, but if it's strong enough to grant powers it's surely strong enough to change appearance?

A lot of homebrew really boils down to "I want to do X but not be X". "I want to play a dragon servant but not be a Dragon Sorcerer." "I want to play someone with fiendish powers but not be a tiefling." The same sentiment was behind a lot of the additional races and classes in 3.5: whisper gnomes were for players who "wanted to have a Small rogue but not be a halfling". I'm glad that there's a slow rate of new content. It ensures the design space of 5e isn't unnecessarily crowded with content that's "X but Y" and doesn't step on it's own toes to cater to everyone.

[R.Shackleford]

There's a good list of origins, most of which trample on the design space of other classes or are frankly impossible. But there's some good stuff there. Thanks.

As for the specific case of demons; being born with demon blood is the entire schtick of the tiefling class. Wouldn't a "fiend origin" imply that the character's a tiefling anyway, even if they are a dragonborn? Not to say that you can't have fiendish blood, but if it's strong enough to grant powers it's surely strong enough to change appearance?

A lot of homebrew really boils down to "I want to do X but not be X". "I want to play a dragon servant but not be a Dragon Sorcerer." "I want to play someone with fiendish powers but not be a tiefling." The same sentiment was behind a lot of the additional races and classes in 3.5: whisper gnomes were for players who "wanted to have a Small rogue but not be a halfling". I'm glad that there's a slow rate of new content. It ensures the design space of 5e isn't unnecessarily crowded with content that's "X but Y" and doesn't step on it's own toes to cater to everyone.

I absolutely hate the slow rate of new content because thus far the content hasn't been all that great. There are a few gems of course but mostly a huge helping of crap.

If they are going to put out mediocre stuff then I would prefer a faster release so that I can have a base to homebrew from.

Genasi and Goliath are decent but I homebrewed versions of them to make them worth taking.

If they aren't going to put out quality mechanics or races they can at least be useful as a muse.

[Quintessence]

i absolutely hate the slow rate of new content because thus far the content hasn't been all that great. There are a few gems of course but mostly a huge helping of crap.

If they are going to put out mediocre stuff then i would prefer a faster release so that i can have a base to homebrew from.

Genasi and goliath are decent but i homebrewed versions of them to make them worth taking.

If they aren't going to put out quality mechanics or races they can at least be useful as a muse.

Why didn't they give the bladesinger the level 7 ability of the eldritch knight instead of extra attack!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The content we have gotten is just kind of meh, with the real "good" stuff being only in UA and thus not usable most of the time.

[R.Shackleford]

Why didn't they give the bladesinger the level 7 ability of the eldritch knight instead of extra attack!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The content we have gotten is just kind of meh, with the real "good" stuff being only in UA and thus not usable most of the time.

Even UA has been meh.

I'm pretty sure they just made a bunch of stuff, throw out a UA of changes to that stuff (making it look "in progress" and are just yanking our chains with UA.

But enough conspiracies from me.

[mgshamster]

What would be classified as good? I've really liked the stuff they've released so far; especially the EE stuff.

[MaxWilson]

Apart from a bit of bemoaning the small list of spells known, I don't think I've seen any dislike for the sorcerer? :smallconfused:

They have a pretty narrow and boring spell list. The #spells known is bad enough, but then it also turns out that for some bizarre reason they can't even learn spells like Conjure Elemental and Absorb Elements!

To the extent that people "hate" the sorcerer, it's probably related to that. I find that they make poor wizard substitutes, but excellent gishes.

[R.Shackleford]

What would be classified as good? I've really liked the stuff they've released so far; especially the EE stuff.

First off, consistency. I think the primary problem with 5e is that it isn't consistent.

The best example is how some classes rely primarily on their subclass for their *stuff* and who they are while others while on their class.

A Wizard who casts primarily evocation spells, no matter what their subclass is, is an evoker. They don't rely on their subclass. Sure their subclass is nice but I've seen plenty of Conjurers with the Diviner subclass.

Barbarians, for example, rely on their subclass to determine what and who they are. All barbarians are pretty much the same outside their subclasd, some str and others are dex, but they don't really change all that much. When they get their subclass that is when you can really distinguish one barbarian from another.

Casters get to distinguish themselves at level 1 of *who they are*. Martials typically have to wait till level 3.

Also casters aren't locked in with who they are like martials are. Pick GWF as a fighter? You are a GWF type forever. Pick blasts spells as a Cleric? Well tomorrow let's pick utility and healing.

The consistency between feats is another laughable aspect of this game.

This game has a great base, however there is a lot of inconsistent issues that make it way to fiddly or a bore...

[Kryx]

especially the EE stuff.
EE was outsourced. So were many other things.

We haven't seen much WotC progress since Rodney Thompson left. Huge blow imo as he was the really good rules guy.

[MaxWilson]

Also casters aren't locked in with who they are like martials are. Pick GWF as a fighter? You are a GWF type forever. Pick blasts spells as a Cleric? Well tomorrow let's pick utility and healing.

True for clerics and druids. Not so true for anyone else. Even a wizard is locked into a subset of the wizard spell list (20%) until he can research more spells. A bard or a sorcerer or warlock is even more narrowly-channeled.

To say nothing of spellcasters who lock themselves in with Elemental Adept (Cold) or Warcaster.

Besides, even a GWF type can expand his repertoire. He can become, for example, a GWM Cavalryman AND a Sharpshooter AND a Grappler/tank, if he wants.

Granted that martials tend to be more locked in than spellcasters are (can't reassign feats like a bard can reassign spells on level-up), but the differences are not as stark as you suggest with your cleric comparison. Clerics and druids are uniquely flexible in their spell loadouts; and even they are partially locked in with their domain/circle spells.

[mgshamster]

EE was outsourced. So were many other things.

We haven't seen much WotC progress since Rodney Thompson left. Huge blow imo as he was the really good rules guy.

Heck, the PHB was outsourced. Green Ronin Games was involved with much of 5e.

[R.Shackleford]

WotC has seen what Apple and Android has done with the App markets and that is exactly what they want to do with their TTRPG market.

[famousringo]

A great weapon fighter that decides to sword and board because he found a sweet shield is basically just two damage behind the duelist fighter, and gets to spend his bonus action on GWM cleaves instead of shield bashes anyway.

He doesn't exactly turn into a gimp whenever a greatsword isn't in his hands.

[Waffle_Iron]

EE was outsourced. So were many other things.

We haven't seen much WotC progress since Rodney Thompson left. Huge blow imo as he was the really good rules guy.

This.
This right here.

[Socratov]

A great weapon fighter that decides to sword and board because he found a sweet shield is basically just two damage behind the duelist fighter, and gets to spend his bonus action on GWM cleaves instead of shield bashes anyway.

He doesn't exactly turn into a gimp whenever a greatsword isn't in his hands.

sure, but his GWF style and -5/+10 mechanics stop working... That's a pretty hefty loss.

[Regitnui]

Sorry for the rant. I can't be the only person who looks at 5e's WotC content as a core, not the be-all and end-all. They gave us the Lego, premade models and instructions. Then they told us, "Go nuts. Show us what you can do." We can't sit at the door banging the toys together asking for "more toys" or "more ideas" when 3.5 has all the ideas you will ever need for inspiration. I have an underwater setting with merfolk forming an alliance with the surface folk, defending themselves against the merrow and the demons from the lightless Deeps. What are you doing with your building blocks, my friends? Rebuilding the Forgotten Realms?

I love Bethesda, the Lego Group and now Wizards precisely because they let me have free reign with their toys. Yeah, some people only look at what they're given. But the true joy comes when playing becomes building, when the rules become guides, not walls.

The sorcerer has three origins. The question is not "why hasn't WotC fixed the problem", it's "How can I make this sorcerer new and fresh?" For starters; what exactly is a "wild magic" origin? Why do you uncontrollably fart magic at inconvenient times? Curse? Psychological problem? Overwhelming power? Arcane parasite twisted around your spine forcing you to overcharge spells so it can feed?

[Socratov]

[snipperino]
The sorcerer has three origins. The question is not "why hasn't WotC fixed the problem", it's "How can I make this sorcerer new and fresh?" For starters; what exactly is a "wild magic" origin? Why do you uncontrollably fart magic at inconvenient times? Curse? Psychological problem? Overwhelming power? Arcane parasite twisted around your spine forcing you to overcharge spells so it can feed?

Well, the way I see it you are overcharged by/suffused with magic which interferes with your spellcasting, creating the Naruto/Ichogo/switching tap effect. Normally you don't see anything happen since you have the tap closed. But when you try to open the tap slowly to let out some magic by cating a spell, it's entirely possible you open it a smidgen too far and magic leaks out in a certain effect (see table). Later on (lvl 14 for controlled chaos) you harness this energy a bit better and with some more certainty. Furthermore yo umake your stuff a bit more potent (Tides of Chaos, Bend Luck and Spell bombardment) as it happens becuase when you open the tap it's not a garden hose but something slightly stronger and pressurized.

But that's jus tmy take on the WMS

[Kite474]

Sorry for the rant. I can't be the only person who looks at 5e's WotC content as a core, not the be-all and end-all. They gave us the Lego, premade models and instructions. Then they told us, "Go nuts. Show us what you can do." We can't sit at the door banging the toys together asking for "more toys" or "more ideas" when 3.5 has all the ideas you will ever need for inspiration. I have an underwater setting with merfolk forming an alliance with the surface folk, defending themselves against the merrow and the demons from the lightless Deeps. What are you doing with your building blocks, my friends? Rebuilding the Forgotten Realms?

I love Bethesda, the Lego Group and now Wizards precisely because they let me have free reign with their toys. Yeah, some people only look at what they're given. But the true joy comes when playing becomes building, when the rules become guides, not walls.

The sorcerer has three origins. The question is not "why hasn't WotC fixed the problem", it's "How can I make this sorcerer new and fresh?" For starters; what exactly is a "wild magic" origin? Why do you uncontrollably fart magic at inconvenient times? Curse? Psychological problem? Overwhelming power? Arcane parasite twisted around your spine forcing you to overcharge spells so it can feed?

Thing is I dont think that many people are looking for the Sorcerer to be fixed that much fluff wise. For the most part complaints seem to be on the spectrum of "Whats it good for?" or "Why would I play this over a wizard?"

[Kryx]

The sorcerer has three origins. The question is not "why hasn't WotC fixed the problem", it's "How can I make this sorcerer new and fresh?"?
They created a Wizard with 8 archetypes and a Sorcerer with 2. It should be no surprise that people are displeased.

It reeks of the imbalance of support that we had between Sorcerer and Wizard in 3.5 and 4e.



Thing is I dont think that many people are looking for the Sorcerer to be fixed that much fluff wise. For the most part complaints seem to be on the spectrum of "Whats it good for?" or "Why would I play this over a wizard?"
Exactly. Wizards added Sorcerers only in the last playtests. The result, overall, fails to live up to the Wizard who is the Sorcerer's main competitor.

[Klorox]

This is my procedure for my sorc 7 / lock 3 at the end of a day when he doesn't (particularly) need a long rest, like after a day of uneventful traveling in the Underdark. While everyone else is long resting, I'm getting in 5 short rests.

hours 1 through 4:
6 pnts into a 4th level slot. (balance 1)
lock spells into 4 pnts. (balance 5)
Meditate for 4 hours (a short rest).
1 lock spell to 2 pnts. (balance 7)
6 pnts into a 4th level slot. (balance 1)
Other lock spell to 2 pnts. (balance 3)

5th hour: Rest 1 hour.
Turn lock spells into 4 pnts. (balance 7)
Turn 6 pnts into a 4th level slot. (balance 1)

6th hour: Rest 1 hour.
Turn lock spells into 4 pnts. (balance 5)

7th hour: Rest 1 hour.
Turn one spell into 2 pts. (balance 7)
Turn 2 pts into 1st level spell. (balance 5)
Turn other lock spell into 2 pts. (balance 7)

8th hour: Rest 1 hour to have 2 lock spells back.

Now you have 3 extra 4th level slots and an extra 1st level slot and you still have all 7 sorc points and 2nd level lock spells. Four extra Polymorphs and a Shield ain't shabby.

Now technically you could keep doing this as long as you can avoid taking a long rest. I'm going to stop at one cycle of it just so I don't completely tick off my DM.

Wow, great job! ❤️

[Quintessence]

Sorry for the rant. I can't be the only person who looks at 5e's WotC content as a core, not the be-all and end-all. They gave us the Lego, premade models and instructions. Then they told us, "Go nuts. Show us what you can do." We can't sit at the door banging the toys together asking for "more toys" or "more ideas" when 3.5 has all the ideas you will ever need for inspiration. I have an underwater setting with merfolk forming an alliance with the surface folk, defending themselves against the merrow and the demons from the lightless Deeps. What are you doing with your building blocks, my friends? Rebuilding the Forgotten Realms?

I love Bethesda, the Lego Group and now Wizards precisely because they let me have free reign with their toys. Yeah, some people only look at what they're given. But the true joy comes when playing becomes building, when the rules become guides, not walls.

The sorcerer has three origins. The question is not "why hasn't WotC fixed the problem", it's "How can I make this sorcerer new and fresh?" For starters; what exactly is a "wild magic" origin? Why do you uncontrollably fart magic at inconvenient times? Curse? Psychological problem? Overwhelming power? Arcane parasite twisted around your spine forcing you to overcharge spells so it can feed?

The problems come with Adventure league and them only allowing WotC printed material, so this "core" is really all we have and people want fresh things to use not just re-flavor.

[Baptor]

I don't hate the sorcerer, I hate what the devs did to my favorite 3.5 class. They took my beloved class and stabbed it with knives until there was nothing but the sick smacking sound of blades into a corpse. Stop! Stop! I cried. The class is already dead!

Seriously though, they killed my class.

[ES Curse]

They have a pretty narrow and boring spell list. The #spells known is bad enough, but then it also turns out that for some bizarre reason they can't even learn spells like Conjure Elemental and Absorb Elements!

To the extent that people "hate" the sorcerer, it's probably related to that. I find that they make poor wizard substitutes, but excellent gishes.

Aren't Sorcerers subpar gishes compared to Bladelocks and Bladesingers though? Those two get light armor proficiency and martial weapons. Metamagic helps even this out a bit, and the Favored Soul is a much better gish than the other origins because of medium armor, but straight-classed Sorcerers are overall worse at it than Bladelocks and Bladesingers.

[Regitnui]

The problems come with Adventure league and them only allowing WotC printed material, so this "core" is really all we have and people want fresh things to use not just re-flavor.

Well, that's the fault of the Adventurer's League system, not the game. D&D doesn't translate as well to competition and global phases as M:tG. ... :smallconfused: …Did I just pick up on the reason why Adventurer's League exists? WotC trying to apply the same community-binding story and global ranking Planeswalker Points to D&D's friends around the table style?

[Kite474]

Well, that's the fault of the Adventurer's League system, not the game. D&D doesn't translate as well to competition and global phases as M:tG. ... :smallconfused: …Did I just pick up on the reason why Adventurer's League exists? WotC trying to apply the same community-binding story and global ranking Planeswalker Points to D&D's friends around the table style?

No... Not at all. AL is just organized public games that play the AP's and smaller adventures that Wizards releases. There's no competition at all. It's just a way to play the game on a consistent basis along with consistent rulings

[SharkForce]

I don't hate the sorcerer, I hate what the devs did to my favorite 3.5 class. They took my beloved class and stabbed it with knives until there was nothing but the sick smacking sound of blades into a corpse. Stop! Stop! I cried. The class is already dead!

Seriously though, they killed my class.

ah, but they didn't stop there, even.

after killing it and then desecrating the corpse, they chopped off several chunks and gave them to everyone else.

yeah, I really miss the 3.x sorcerer. it wasn't as powerful as the wizard, but at least it had enough options that you could make a decent specialized caster out of it... you could make an illusionist or enchanter sorcerer, or a blaster sorcerer, and so on...

now, well... you can make any kind of sorcerer you want, as long as you want to make a blaster (the other concepts generally not having key spells on the spell list or sufficient spells known to really make them work). you can be a random blaster, or a scaly blaster, or a zappy blaster. it's all up to you.

[Kryx]

now, well... you can make any kind of sorcerer you want, as long as you want to make a blaster (the other concepts generally not having key spells on the spell list or sufficient spells known to really make them work). you can be a random blaster, or a scaly blaster, or a zappy blaster. it's all up to you.
To be fair: Bend Luck is amazing to force enemies to fail CC.

[Knaight]

No... Not at all. AL is just organized public games that play the AP's and smaller adventures that Wizards releases. There's no competition at all. It's just a way to play the game on a consistent basis along with consistent rulings

The big thing is more that you can jump from one AL game to the next. If you're just in a local area, it's no better than a regularly meeting local group (although those are a bit easier talked about than formed). If you travel heavily though, AL is quite possibly your only option.

[SharkForce]

To be fair: Bend Luck is amazing to force enemies to fail CC.

sure, but that's obviously not as good as the no saving throw offered by, say, wall of force or bigby's hand.

nor is at as good as being able to have a variety of options in terms of spell levels you use, or what saving throws you can target, or what status effects you can apply, on an as-needed basis because you have a large spell list and a reasonable number of spells known.

hypnotic pattern is a *wonderful* spell, especially with careful spell metamagic (so you can drop it right on top of your allies that are in melee)... until you run into something that is immune to charm, and now you need a different option for a will save AoE disable and oh wait, you only know a handful of spells so you don't have one because you can't afford redundancy.

[R.Shackleford]

I don't hate the sorcerer, I hate what the devs did to my favorite 3.5 class. They took my beloved class and stabbed it with knives until there was nothing but the sick smacking sound of blades into a corpse. Stop! Stop! I cried. The class is already dead!

Seriously though, they killed my class.

In all honesty the 4e and 5e sorcerers are much better than the 3e sorcerer... Like... The 3e sorcerer had nothing outside of spontaneous casting and ... Well... Yeah.... It had 1 class feature outside of spellcasting which was a familiar...

So if you miss 3e spells that would make sense but the 3e sorcerer was not even worth being called a class (which shows how powerful Spellcasting was in 3e).

[DeAnno]

In all honesty the 4e and 5e sorcerers are much better than the 3e sorcerer... Like... The 3e sorcerer had nothing outside of spontaneous casting and ... Well... Yeah.... It had 1 class feature outside of spellcasting which was a familiar...

So if you miss 3e spells that would make sense but the 3e sorcerer was not even worth being called a class (which shows how powerful Spellcasting was in 3e).

All the Sorcerer "class features" came in splats, in the form of Sorcerer only spells. To the credit of the Sorcerer there were some good spells on this list, but it was still a farce that the actual class lacked any features.

[Regitnui]

The big thing is more that you can jump from one AL game to the next. If you're just in a local area, it's no better than a regularly meeting local group (although those are a bit easier talked about than formed). If you travel heavily though, AL is quite possibly your only option.

That more confirms that WotC is trying to take the universality of MtG and apply it to D&D. Right now, I can travel to Romania and, barring language issues, my deck would be just as good there as it is here. While D&D is a lot more open ended; I can go down the street and join a 4e game based off OotS while running a 5e game based in Eberron and supporting a 3.5 Greyhawk game. Adventurer's League incentivizes running the same rules on the same adventures on the same setting. Perhaps the grand problem with 5e is not 'lack of options', but 'unwillingness to not play AL'.

[Knaight]

That more confirms that WotC is trying to take the universality of MtG and apply it to D&D. Right now, I can travel to Romania and, barring language issues, my deck would be just as good there as it is here. While D&D is a lot more open ended; I can go down the street and join a 4e game based off OotS while running a 5e game based in Eberron and supporting a 3.5 Greyhawk game. Adventurer's League incentivizes running the same rules on the same adventures on the same setting. Perhaps the grand problem with 5e is not 'lack of options', but 'unwillingness to not play AL'.

It's more along the lines of a franchise. The point of the AL (and lots of predecessors in other editions of D&D/Pathfinder) is to have a set of largely similar games that people can go to whenever they're feeling like a particular thing. Consider chain restaurants - one Chipotle makes pretty much the same food as another. In the context of D&D though, this is necessary for anything like campaign play, as otherwise jumping around heavily would only really be conducive to one shots, which have never been something D&D is particularly good at.

The rest of the comparison doesn't hold. There's no competition, there's not really global phases in the same way, etc. There's some standardization, but that's unavoidable as long as the entire concept of bringing an existing character from game to game is kept. Meanwhile house games can do whatever they want, as they're not beholden to any organization.

[R.Shackleford]

All the Sorcerer "class features" came in splats, in the form of Sorcerer only spells. To the credit of the Sorcerer there were some good spells on this list, but it was still a farce that the actual class lacked any features.

But that isn't the sorcerer then.

That is a product of the spells being good/broken and in no part because the sorcerer was any good.

You wasn't playing a Sorcerer in 3e you was playing a spell list.

****
On AL: I would rather never play D&D for the rest of my life... I would rather D&D become illegal than to ever play Adventure League again.

When the people who have been DMing since the beginning of AL (and players) can't even recall what a bonus action is because they have been houseruling the game to essentially be 3e... Nope, not worth the headache. When I get told I can't move between attacks unless I take the spring attack feat... Nope, not dealing with that. When the DM's boyfriend comes by and can run his level 15 Cleric in a level 4 game...Just no.

I've played in Pittsburgh, Columbus, Saint Louis, DC, and a bunch of smaller towns due to traveling for work... And AL is consistently a crap stain.

#ALRant

[famousringo]

Aren't Sorcerers subpar gishes compared to Bladelocks and Bladesingers though? Those two get light armor proficiency and martial weapons. Metamagic helps even this out a bit, and the Favored Soul is a much better gish than the other origins because of medium armor, but straight-classed Sorcerers are overall worse at it than Bladelocks and Bladesingers.

Straight sorcerer, you're right.

But given the terribly weak high level abilities and desolate stretches between metamagic gains, it's hard not to feel like sorcerer is born to multiclass. And it multiclasses very well with other casters, paladins, EKs, and rogues. Twinned Booming Blades and quickened spellcasts are a heckuva drug.

I suspect the strength of sorcerers as a multiclass is one of the reasons WotC is reluctant to try to fix gripes about the pure class.

[Regitnui]

It's more along the lines of a franchise. The point of the AL (and lots of predecessors in other editions of D&D/Pathfinder) is to have a set of largely similar games that people can go to whenever they're feeling like a particular thing.

Don't mistake me for saying that Adventurer's League is bad. I'm just noticing a lot of parallels, especially for me who doesn't play MtG competitively but participates in a sanctioned group; Both ensure the same rulings, similar gameplay in disparate groups. It might not be as helpful for D&D as it is for M:tG though.

[SharkForce]

Straight sorcerer, you're right.

But given the terribly weak high level abilities and desolate stretches between metamagic gains, it's hard not to feel like sorcerer is born to multiclass. And it multiclasses very well with other casters, paladins, EKs, and rogues. Twinned Booming Blades and quickened spellcasts are a heckuva drug.

I suspect the strength of sorcerers as a multiclass is one of the reasons WotC is reluctant to try to fix gripes about the pure class.

so fix them at the higher levels.

and yeah, i have to admit, to a large extent the 3.x sorcerer was just a spell list for their class features (to be fair, that spell list was enough to put them in the second-highest tier in the game all by itself though). but at least they had a very flexible and versatile spell list. their other perks (more spell slots, which was only relevant sometimes, and spontaneous spellcasting) are gone or given to others.

metamagic is cool and all, but apart from the fact that i can't come up with a valid reason why a wizard couldn't do the same thing, it's not nearly enough to compensate for what they don't have in 5e.

[RickAllison]

Straight sorcerer, you're right.

But given the terribly weak high level abilities and desolate stretches between metamagic gains, it's hard not to feel like sorcerer is born to multiclass. And it multiclasses very well with other casters, paladins, EKs, and rogues. Twinned Booming Blades and quickened spellcasts are a heckuva drug.

I suspect the strength of sorcerers as a multiclass is one of the reasons WotC is reluctant to try to fix gripes about the pure class.

I get that a lot too. It seems like they weakened the sorcerer because they weren't really sure how insane the sorcerer's powers could be.

[Dalebert]

I get that a lot too. It seems like they weakened the sorcerer because they weren't really sure how insane the sorcerer's powers could be.

They are kinda right though. I think they probably toned them down after play-testing and seeing how effective a lot of that stuff was. That's what happened to me. I didn't like them until I played one for a friend and was shocked at how much fun I was having.

The core defining principle of a sorcerer, as best I can tell from various iterations of it, is that their magic is innate as opposed to something gained from study. I love that flavor and I wonder how one would capture that flavor in a manner such that it would be advantageous over a wizard at times and detrimental at others.

Some of the flavor things that bug me are that it's presumed a sorcerer casts spells in essentially the same way as a wizard. Why would they? The wizard might be saying ancient arcane words of power but the sorcerer likely isn't even be familiar with those. He could be saying nursery rhymes that just make sense in his own head. A wizard trying to counterspell a sorcerer should have no idea what's being cast (and vice-versa, I suppose). It could be Wish or it could be Acid Splash for all he knows. Sorcerers should not need a material component unless it's costly (for balance reasons). Again, isn't their magic innate? He might just hold his hand up and shout "Spatula!" for a counterspell. Or his V,S, and M could be tailored to his specific style or source of origin. Each sorcerer is fiercely individualist while a wizard prides in being part of an elite club.

I love the seemingly intended friction between wizards and sorcerers. The sorcerer is the popular kid for whom everything seems to come easily and the wizard is the nerd who works hard and is eternally resentful of the quarterback or the lead singer of the band who has hot groupies. Meanwhile, the wizard condescends toward the sorcerer and delights in knowing he's smarter when it counts. When I'm playing either, I tend to run with that.

I think metamagic is on track but they could have flavored them up in a few other ways.

[Quintessence]

All the Sorcerer "class features" came in splats, in the form of Sorcerer only spells. To the credit of the Sorcerer there were some good spells on this list, but it was still a farce that the actual class lacked any features.

Sorcerer also had a lot of stuff that increased their caster level, some call that too gouda though.

[JumboWheat01]

Sorcerer also had a lot of stuff that increased their caster level, some call that too gouda though.

Mmm... gouda...

Was there really stuff to increase caster levels back in 3rd? I'll admit, most of my 3rd edition experience comes from the Neverwinter Nights games, and I certainly didn't consider sorcerers bad at all back then, if for the simple reason of being able to blast several times with a fireball the moment I got access to level three spells. Of course, computer games also tend to be static, so you could build for things like that and get away with it.

[Baptor]

In all honesty the 4e and 5e sorcerers are much better than the 3e sorcerer... Like... The 3e sorcerer had nothing outside of spontaneous casting and ... Well... Yeah.... It had 1 class feature outside of spellcasting which was a familiar...

So if you miss 3e spells that would make sense but the 3e sorcerer was not even worth being called a class (which shows how powerful Spellcasting was in 3e).

Alas you forget, Sorcerer was the only full caster with spontaneous casting in the Core Rules. Spontaneous casting was its niche, its thing. Now anyone can do it, but they really didn't do much for the poor sorcerer to replace what he'd lost. He's still got a terribly restrictive spell list but nothing to make up for it.

Oh and they could cast more spells per day than any other full caster with comparable stats/items.

So yeah, things like spontaneous casting aren't a big deal now, but in 3.0/3.5 that was one heck of a class feature.

I would have prefered and entirely new direction. I liked the sorcerer in the the playtest that was kind of a gish. That was a cool idea.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Sorry for the rant. I can't be the only person who looks at 5e's WotC content as a core, not the be-all and end-all. They gave us the Lego, premade models and instructions. Then they told us, "Go nuts. Show us what you can do."
I will refluff to my heart's content. I will build my own worlds. That is, after all, the point of a tabletop game. What I don't want to do is write my own rules*. These are, theoretically, professional game designers. I want to give them money in exchange for game material. To use your metaphor, I'd like to buy more bricks, new bricks like hinges and some of those slanty wing things, and they're saying "eh, you can make your own." All they want to do is release more instructions (adventure paths, Forgotten Realms lore, etc) using the same old pile of lego.


*I mean, okay, I do want to do that, but only because I like playing with RPG mechanics for their own sake. I'm a significant outlier.


On AL: I would rather never play D&D for the rest of my life... I would rather D&D become illegal than to ever play Adventure League again.
Hyperbole much? I've been playing an AL game here in Pittsburgh and the DM is honestly one of the best I've ever played with. Group is pretty good, too. (Also, I'm pretty sure most of those things you complained about aren't AL-legal, but that's neither here nor there)

[Quintessence]

Mmm... gouda...

Was there really stuff to increase caster levels back in 3rd? I'll admit, most of my 3rd edition experience comes from the Neverwinter Nights games, and I certainly didn't consider sorcerers bad at all back then, if for the simple reason of being able to blast several times with a fireball the moment I got access to level three spells. Of course, computer games also tend to be static, so you could build for things like that and get away with it.

Yeah there was quite a bit, especially for sorcerer... If you did it right at level 4 you could count as a 10th level caster roughly.

[Zalabim]

General thoughts, on mechanics: If being able to cast a spell is a "1", then a wizard casting that spell from their school specialization is a "2", and a sorcerer casting a spell using metamagic is somewhere between 1 and 2. They can't out-specialize the wizard, but they can apply their specialization (metamagic) in weird ways to create their own special combo. An enchanter can erase memories from their victims to manipulate people and get away with it. A subtle sorcerer can try to copy that, or they can kill people with no one the wiser.

The metamagic your sorcerer picks is as important to your spell selection as the wizard's school specialization. Basically, your metamagic picks determine what kind of sorcerer you are just as much as your sorcerous origin.

Thematically: I think the sorcerer fails to exude magic the way wizards and warlocks do. The wizard can always cast a ritual spell from their book and a warlock has access to an arcane battery to recharge several times a day. The sorcerer casts a few spells, spends their few sorcery points and is as magical as a high elf for the rest of the time. Then both wizards and warlocks get other class features that behave magically while sorcerer features tend to draw on their existing resource pools. The innately magical class ends up feeling, to me, the least magical of all.

I don't even know why they bother to call them innately magical when they're still tied in having the worst weapon proficiency, worst armor proficiency, worst skill proficiencies, worst hit dice, and all their class features use up one or both of their magic resources. This "magic" stuff clearly takes all of their effort. There's nothing easy about it.

Basically any origin story for a sorcerer is equally valid for a warlock and vise versa, it just depends which mechanics you want to reference. Made a deal with a dragon for power? Sorcerer. Got some demon blood running through your veins? Warlock. Had a brush with a fey's magic circle? Could be anything. Maybe you're a paladin now. Not really a complaint, here. Just a thing.


Oh and they could cast more spells per day than any other full caster with comparable stats/items.

Alas, that was never really true. See, at level 5, an Evoker got 2 base 3rd level spells and 3 base 2nd level spells. One of these had to be evocation, sure, but they got them. The sorcerer at that level had 0 base 3rd level spells and 4 base 2nd level spells. Level 5 is a pretty unfair level, so what about level 6? At level 6, the Evoker gets 3 base 3rd level spells and 4 base 2nd level spells. The sorcerer gets 3 base 3rd level spells and 5 base 2nd level spells. The wizard always had more powerful magic, and compared with a specialist, the sorcerer had more of the lesser magic. So the best thing to do with the sorcerer was be the best generalist you could be so you aren't trying to out-fireball an evoker. That's not really what the sorcerer was good at, nor is it very fluffy or thematic, but it is the role they could perform better at.


I would have prefered and entirely new direction. I liked the sorcerer in the the playtest that was kind of a gish. That was a cool idea.

I liked it too, though it wouldn't just have to be a gish. It would be taking on some of the role of whatever magical creature was its inspiration. So dragons are a gish, but a storm would be an area controller.

[Regitnui]

I liked it too, though it wouldn't just have to be a gish. It would be taking on some of the role of whatever magical creature was its inspiration. So dragons are a gish, but a storm would be an area controller.

This is an interesting idea, although difficult to pull off, doesn't make the Sorcerer any more interesting. It shifts the emphasis from the class to its subclasses.

Perhaps the 'sorta-mage' classes from 3.5 should go under Sorcerer; Shaman, Beguiler, that paired 'magic assassin thing from the PHB2, all as variations on what the inherent magic trends towards as opposed to its origin.

[Grod_The_Giant]

This is an interesting idea, although difficult to pull off, doesn't make the Sorcerer any more interesting. It shifts the emphasis from the class to its subclasses.
Which seems perfectly fine to me.

[georgie_leech]

This is an interesting idea, although difficult to pull off, doesn't make the Sorcerer any more interesting. It shifts the emphasis from the class to its subclasses.

Perhaps the 'sorta-mage' classes from 3.5 should go under Sorcerer; Shaman, Beguiler, that paired 'magic assassin thing from the PHB2, all as variations on what the inherent magic trends towards as opposed to its origin.

It's not all that unusual for more of a class's theme or style to come from subclass. Look at how the different Fighter subs get talked about, or how people nearly treat Valor and Lore Bards as separate classes. Heck, people frequently build around a single Warlock Feature, not even their subclass! So I don't think it's all that unusual for most of the 'this is why you play a Sorcerer' to come from their Origins.

[R.Shackleford]

Hyperbole much? I've been playing an AL game here in Pittsburgh and the DM is honestly one of the best I've ever played with. Group is pretty good, too. (Also, I'm pretty sure most of those things you complained about aren't AL-legal, but that's neither here nor there)

No.

I'm am completely seriously with no over exaggeration at all.

AL can go burn in a fire.

The biggest problem is that WotC has no control over the DMs, want no control over the DMs, and even when you send in a complaint for a DM threatening a player (multiple times), not running AL stuff, or playing a completely different system they do absolutely nothing about it.

AL is a good idea IF WotC would actually control it and have some damn quality assurance.

[MaxWilson]

Aren't Sorcerers subpar gishes compared to Bladelocks and Bladesingers though? Those two get light armor proficiency and martial weapons. Metamagic helps even this out a bit, and the Favored Soul is a much better gish than the other origins because of medium armor, but straight-classed Sorcerers are overall worse at it than Bladelocks and Bladesingers.

I'm referring to a gish with a sorcerer mixin, e.g. a Paladin 6/Sorcerer 3 is an excellent gish with a great action economy. He can, for example, Quicken Web on his enemies + shove another into the web + attack with his longsword (at advantage against a restrained target). A Paladin 6/Bladesinger 3 would have about the same AC as the Paladin/Sorcerer, but instead of the Quickened Web he'd be spending his bonus action activating Bladesong. Plus, a Paladin/Bladesinger would be way more MAD than a Paladin/Sorcerer because of the Int dependency.

Paladin 9/Sorcerer 3 also has the game's second-best healing (Extended Aura of Vitality for 140 points of healing), and Wild Surge on a tank is hilariously awesome even on the negative results. (Free Fireball centered on me when I cast Shield? Yes, please. I'll laugh my head off as the grimlock swarm attacking me evaporates.)

Barbarian/Bladelock isn't a bad gish, but they don't have the same action economy strengths as a Paladin/Sorcerer. Warbearian bladelocks are different from paladorcs, not better. Whoever told you otherwise wasn't thinking it through.

(Favored Souls don't exist as far as I'm concerned. They're certainly not in the PHB, and UA is notoriously broken--things from UA that eventually get published are substantially weakened/rewritten first.)