[3.PF] I need 329 feats for a creature

[atemu1234]

So I made a Solar, with a particular creature template, that requires 329 feats because of its hit dice... assuming that it took Practiced Spellcaster for its CL the appropriate number of times (160 times), it's still going to need an additional 169 feats, and from there I have no clue. Keep in mind this is partly a homebrew creature (I took a third party, 3e template, applied it to a 3.5 creature and am now converting), and it's going to be so far beyond epic Elminster is going to be crapping his pants (CR 104 or so, but good luck playtesting that).

[Troacctid]

Well, remember, you can always spend a feat slot to increase an ability score by 1 point via the epic feats that do that. So that should help.

[Jeff the Green]

Howabout Spontaneous Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#spontaneousSpell)? Turn its cleric casting into spontaneous full-list casting! (Well, 1/3-list casting. But the rest is certainly dross.)

[JNAProductions]

Toughness. 329 times.

[Bucky]

If you have that many feats to spare he can do something crazy like take all 78 non-race/class specific Teamwork feats just in case he happens to fight alongside someone else with those feats.

Also, Dispelling Fist is fun when you have super-epic dispel checks.

[Necromancy]

Just take str all the way. Photoshop some wings onto power thirst man and you have your mini

[Zanos]

Well, remember, you can always spend a feat slot to increase an ability score by 1 point via the epic feats that do that. So that should help.
A whole lot of Improved Spell Capacity and/or Improved Metamagic should be good as well.

[Knaight]

Toughness. 329 times.

As tempting as this is, increasing constitution every time instead is a better option. As is Epic Toughness, for that matter.

[Sayt]

Bloody hell. Uh....
1.stunning fist
2. Cornugon stun
3. Ability focus (stunning fist)
4. Mantis style
5. Improved crit
6. Critical focus
7. Critical feat of your choice
8. WF
9. Dazzling Display
10. Cornugon Smash
11. Shatter defenses
12. Step up
13. Following Step
14. Step up and Strike
15. Robilar's Gambit
16. Dodge
17. Mobility
18. Elusive target

[Mr Adventurer]

Practiced Spellcaster can't be taken more than once for the same caster level?

[Kurald Galain]

Skill Focus: Craft (Basketweaver).

[Inevitability]

Skill Focus: Craft (Basketweaver).

One down, 328 to go... Maybe pick Epic Skill Focus too? :smalltongue:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Exchange some of those racial hit dice for some class levels and start shunting out feats that improve those classes. Three levels of factotum and Font of Inspiration is always a good deal, if you've got a good Int. Extra Song (bard, with some bardic music to potentially offset metamagic costs), Extra Turning (cleric for some Divine Metamagic -- plus some domain optimization potential!), Extra Rage (barbarian, but go with whirling frenzy pouncing barbarian, instead of standard; it retains its viability even with just a one level dip). Martial monk for some prereq-less feats and Wis to AC, and don't forget dungeoncrasher fighter. A level in ardent (with the Magic Mantle) and Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) followed by 1- and 2-level dips in several other psionic classes to give you tons of bonus power points, all the useful psionic feats, metapsionic feats, lots of Expanded Knowledge to give you all the powers you want. Make sure you DCFS out all the armor and shield feats that these classes grant to you for more feats (see the Armor and Shield proficiency feats themselves for details).

Every metamagic feat, all the feats that improve and reduce costs for metamagic feats, summoning feats, all the applicable incarnum feats, all the good feats in ToB, including Martial Study and Martial Stance for every maneuver and stance you want (plus a one level dip in warblade or swordsage [or both] for recovery at least one method), item creation feats and item creation cost reducers, Extra Slot and Extra Spell for lots of spellcasting options, the few useful epic feats (not that there are many of them), all the feats that grant extra attacks (Snap Kick, Improved Trip, Sun School, the TWF or MWF line, etc), reach-granting feats (and items!), Karmic Strike Combat Reflexes & Evasive Reflexes to just step out of the way of anyone who attacks you within your reach, and more.

Heck, just within this post alone, you're probably already needing more feats to get them all, assuming there are quite a few powers, spells, and maneuvers you like.

[MilleniaAntares]

Just go to your desired srd site and hand them feats in alphabetical order.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I don't think Practiced Spellcaster stacks with itself, but you can probably homebrew that.

I'd definitely get some stat increases, for simplicity if nothing else. +10 to all scores is 60 feats. After that, get some of the Automatic Still/Silent feats, Improved Metamagic (a few times), and Intensify, Persist and Quicken. A few (~20) Improved Spell Capacities, too.

You can also get DR 2/- for the cost of a feat, so DR 338/- is an option.

[khadgar567]

how much hit dice that this uber solar have

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You can also get DR 2/- for the cost of a feat, so DR 338/- is an option.I'd rather go for efficiency. Why spend that many feats for some DR when you can completely ignore damage in one of numerous easy ways?

[Seppo87]

Really, it depends. Does it need to be optimized? Is it meant to be actually played and defeated?

[BearonVonMu]

Martial Study from the Book of Nine Swords.
Take it enough times to get all three of the "Turn a save into a concentration check" abilities, just to close off the option of rolling a one on a save or die.
Also, while you're at it, get the stance Aura of Chaos. It makes all of your damage dice explode.

[Afgncaap5]

Really, it depends. Does it need to be optimized? Is it meant to be actually played and defeated?

This is a good call. What function will it be serving in the game? Answers will be different for "My ridiculously optimized characters need something that they truly can't beat" than it will be for "I need a solar NPC who can realistically exist as The Pillar Of Void, who's wisdom they'll seek out thanks to his unique position in the heavenly hierarchy". And both would be different from "Got some free time, thought I'd tinker an angel together for fun."

And no matter the reason... you were probably gonna lump 'em in anyway, but Endurance and Diehard feel practical as a last-chance "Just in case someone actually knocks it to negative hit points" thing. I mean, I don't know what Constitution score a creature like this will have, but I'm guessing somewhere between "notable" and "impressive" is a fair guess, meaning the Diehard effect could potentially get some decent usage.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

the Diehard effect could potentially get some decent usage.Doubtful. Improved Toughness is vastly more effective at this level than +9 effective hp, and beastland ferocity + delay death can ensure that you ignore hp damage altogether.

[martixy]

Martial Study from the Book of Nine Swords.
Take it enough times to get all three of the "Turn a save into a concentration check" abilities, just to close off the option of rolling a one on a save or die.
Also, while you're at it, get the stance Aura of Chaos. It makes all of your damage dice explode.

Note that it can only be taken 3 times.
Though given the fact that stances count as manuevers for prerequisites, you could still get one of the Conc-to-save maneuvers and still get Aura of chaos.

[Hunter Noventa]

Note that it can only be taken 3 times.
Though given the fact that stances count as manuevers for prerequisites, you could still get one of the Conc-to-save maneuvers and still get Aura of chaos.

Except that the Conc-to-save maneuvers and Aura of Chaos are from different martial schools, and the prerequisites require moves from the same school.

[Afgncaap5]

Doubtful. Improved Toughness is vastly more effective at this level than +9 effective hp, and beastland ferocity + delay death can ensure that you ignore hp damage altogether.

Well, yes, but there's no reason that both couldn't be used. Also, I'm assuming that he's working with the Pathfinder dying rules instead of the 3.5 dying rules (though I could be mistaken in that assumption) where the Solar wouldn't die until after its hit points dropped to its Constitution score. Even if we assume that none of the feats are used for increasing Constitution, that's still staving off death until -30 hit points, which can potentially grant 29 more turns of action when the Solar would otherwise be unconscious (assuming that he takes no damage during those potential turns.) I'm suggesting it more for its "three minutes of emergency action economy" than I am for the hit point boost (which at this level is probably negligible.)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Well, yes, but there's no reason that both couldn't be used. Also, I'm assuming that he's working with the Pathfinder dying rules instead of the 3.5 dying rules (though I could be mistaken in that assumption) where the Solar wouldn't die until after its hit points dropped to its Constitution score. Even if we assume that none of the feats are used for increasing Constitution, that's still staving off death until -30 hit points, which can potentially grant 29 more turns of action when the Solar would otherwise be unconscious (assuming that he takes no damage during those potential turns.) I'm suggesting it more for its "three minutes of emergency action economy" than I am for the hit point boost (which at this level is probably negligible.)I always did think that the 3.X rules for 0 to -9 were entirely subpar.

[Afgncaap5]

I always did think that the 3.X rules for 0 to -9 were entirely subpar.

Yeah, while I'm generally opposed to some of the ways that Pathfinder just boosts things from the 3.5 counterpart, the dying rule is one I actually like. Though it carries a few risks (especially for wizards who take Con as a dump stat).

[Seppo87]

Though it carries a few risks (especially for wizards who take Con as a dump stat). I have never seen one tho

[Malimar]

329 feets, you say?
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-0NvyojiEhjw/TXL_UNqR_uI/AAAAAAAABe0/mAe4uKDwchE/s1600/millipede.jpg

...Srsly tho the epic feats that give +1 ability score are a good choice here. Also Improved Toughness and Epic Toughness. I don't think I have anything to contribute that others haven't already said.

[ShurikVch]

Truenaming feats: Minor Utterance of the Evolving Mind, Utterance of the Evolving Mind, Utterance of the Crafted Tool, and Utterance of the Perfected Map

[Necromancy]

Epic toughness? Seriously?
This is a 1000HD creature I am guessing?

Two epic toughness vs two points of con....

[Malimar]

Epic toughness? Seriously?
This is a 1000HD creature I am guessing?

Two epic toughness vs two points of con....

Hm, yes, good point. Improved Toughness still a good plan for one feat, otherwise just Great Constitution if you want HP.

[Afgncaap5]

I have never seen one tho

Really? Weird. Pretty much all my Wizards take either Con or Str as their dump stat. Pretty standard around the gaming tables I frequent. I think the only exception I ever had was my Knight Phantom gish who had Con at 10 with... I wanna say Charisma as a dump stat that time.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Really? Weird. Pretty much all my Wizards take either Con or Str as their dump stat. Pretty standard around the gaming tables I frequent. I think the only exception I ever had was my Knight Phantom gish who had Con at 10 with... I wanna say Charisma as a dump stat that time.Since wizards only REALLY need Int to be high, they can afford to place their other stats where they want them. Out of all the other stats they've got, they need Con and Dex the most -- Con for Concentration checks, hp, and Fort saves (all of which are very important), and Dex for initiative, Reflex saves, AC, and ranged touch attacks. The rest can be safely dumped, though they're useful for things on occasion -- just not critical.

A wizard dumping Con is a very bad idea. This, however, flies in the face of the standard "frail bookworm" archetype, but it's what the 3.P D&D rules encourage with a very heavy hand.

[Afgncaap5]

A wizard dumping Con is a very bad idea. This, however, flies in the face of the standard "frail bookworm" archetype, but it's what the 3.P D&D rules encourage with a very heavy hand.

I can see why it might be a bad idea to dump Con on paper, but frankly it's never worked out that way for me or any other wizard players I've played with. Hit points are less of an issue when you're hard to hit and quick on the draw, and I've never failed a Concentration check with just the bonuses from the skill points I put into it. (To date, the only wizard I've played who's been knocked out was the aforementioned Knight Phantom, and he had as many d10s as he had d4s in there.)

[ShurikVch]

I wonder: why nobody suggested to spend all those feats on Open Minded (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#openMinded)?
I mean, it's not like there are not enough skills to max...

One more variant: take Epic Destiny (this 4e stuff was adapted to 3.5 in Dragon #363); it will cost 4 epic feats

Or take a page from Immortal's Handbook - exchange 6 feats to 1 Salient Divine Ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#salientDivineAbilities)


A wizard dumping Con is a very bad idea. This, however, flies in the face of the standard "frail bookworm" archetype, but it's what the 3.P D&D rules encourage with a very heavy hand.Take Mind over Body at 1st level, and at 2nd - Necropolitan :smallwink:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Take Mind over Body at 1st level, and at 2nd - Necropolitan :smallwink:Who in their right minds would want that combo? Necropolitan, sure, but you're completely wasting a feat.

[ShurikVch]

Who in their right minds would want that combo? Necropolitan, sure, but you're completely wasting a feat.Not that one (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#mindOverBody); from the Player's Guide to Faerûn.
You worried about low hp because of dumped Con; this feat allow to calculate your 1st level hp from Int or Cha (also, +1 more hp for every metamagic feat, and, if your PC is arcane caster, +1 insight to AC)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Not that one (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#mindOverBody); from the Player's Guide to Faerûn.
You worried about low hp because of dumped Con; this feat allow to calculate your 1st level hp from Int or Cha (also, +1 more hp for every metamagic feat, and, if your PC is arcane caster, +1 insight to AC)That's the one I was talking about, too. It's a crappy feat. Faerie Mysteries Initiate gives you +Int to hp EVERY level, not just the first one. Mind Over Body is awful. Unless you can get, like, 4 metamagic feats per level.

[ShurikVch]

Faerie Mysteries Initiate gives you +Int to hp EVERY levelExcept, in order to use it at all, you should:
1. Be an Elf (or Tallfellow Halfling)
2. Have access to another Elf (or Tallfellow Halfling) with this feat
Where you will find one? :smallconfused:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Except, in order to use it at all, you should:
1. Be an Elf (or Tallfellow Halfling)
2. Have access to another Elf (or Tallfellow Halfling) with this feat
Where you will find one? :smallconfused:Easy. Alter self. Or just take a couple of ranks in Knowledge (Local).

[ShurikVch]

Easy. Alter self. Or just take a couple of ranks in Knowledge (Local).:smallconfused: And how will it help?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

:smallconfused: And how will it help?You can qualify for regional feats with 2 ranks in Knowledge (Local). Then just ask someone else to frolic with you.

[ShurikVch]

You can qualify for regional feats with 2 ranks in Knowledge (Local). Then just ask someone else to frolic with you.:smallsigh: That certain "someone else" should have feat Faerie Mysteries Initiate too.
I'm asking: where you will find such "someone else"?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

:smallsigh: That certain "someone else" should have feat Faerie Mysteries Initiate too.
I'm asking: where you will find such "someone else"?Anyone with a low Con, high Int, and a feat to spare. I imagine any intelligent undead spellcaster would love to have this feat, and most elves would want it, of course.

Or, you know, there are lots of ways to A.) swap out feats, or B.) temporarily clone yourself.

[Zanos]

Except, in order to use it at all, you should:
1. Be an Elf (or Tallfellow Halfling)
2. Have access to another Elf (or Tallfellow Halfling) with this feat
Where you will find one? :smallconfused:
Many of the best Wizard races are elf subraces anyway. You only need to preform the ritual once, since the benefit lasts until you do it again and pick another benefit. So you can easily say you did it once with a character in your backstory, since it's a 1st level feat.

[ShurikVch]

Anyone with a low Con, high Int, and a feat to spare. I imagine any intelligent undead spellcaster would love to have this feat, and most elves would want it, of course.Except you can't optimize NPCs, so you are at DM's mercy there
Or, you know, there are lots of ways to A.) swap out featsOn another character? How? :smallconfused:
or B.) temporarily clone yourself.Body outside Body, Fission, and Simulacrum are all 7th level.
Assuming playing from lower levels, it will take a long...

[ExLibrisMortis]

Except you can't optimize NPCs, so you are at DM's mercy thereOn another character? How? :smallconfused:Body outside Body, Fission, and Simulacrum are all 7th level.
Assuming playing from lower levels, it will take a long...
You can share alter self or polymorph with your familiar (your familiar probably doesn't have the humanoid (elf/human) type, so polymorph is needed, but you only need one scroll).

[ShurikVch]

So you can easily say you did it once with a character in your backstory, since it's a 1st level feat.1. I don't see anywhere it says about "1st level"
2. If it really 1st level only, then you should be not just an Elf (or Tallfellow Halfling), but Greyhawk Elf (or Tallfellow Halfling)

You can share alter self or polymorph with your familiar (your familiar probably doesn't have the humanoid (elf/human) type, so polymorph is needed, but you only need one scroll).And how will it help?

[ExLibrisMortis]

And how will it help?
Obviously, your backstory is that you turned your familiar into your wizard college crush, and that's how you got the feat. I can't believe you didn't see that.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Except you can't optimize NPCs, so you are at DM's mercy there. On another character? How?Psychic reformation is a thing. If you can find someone willing (or unwillingly willing), negative levels, some quick retraining for the first level, and either greater restoration or a thought bottle. You can also use mind rape for it. Or you could use the DCFS (especially nice, since elves have 6 free feats at first level; I'm sure most of them would love to trade in their useless shortbow proficiency feat for free hp.) I'm sure there are others.


:smallconfused:Body outside Body, Fission, and Simulacrum are all 7th level.And scrolls are relatively cheap, for most things. And don't forget ice assassin.


Assuming playing from lower levels, it will take a long...A cheap scroll or spellcasting services are affordable well before you can cast a spell of that level.


1. I don't see anywhere it says about "1st level"[Regional] feats can only be gotten at 1st level, and FMI is a [regional] feat.

[ShurikVch]

Obviously, your backstory is that you turned your familiar into your wizard college crush, and that's how you got the feat. I can't believe you didn't see that.Wouldn't work: your Familiar don't have neither feat itself, nor prerequisites for the feat.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Wouldn't work: your Familiar don't have neither feat itself, nor prerequisites for the feat.
Fair enough. Instead of asking "How would that help?", you could just say that straight away. You're still wrong, though. Familiars can qualify for the feat, if they hail from a region that qualifies (Celene, Lendore Isles, Verbobonc). Familiars typically don't get feats, but psicrystals do - a psion could use this trick easily.


@Maxi: You can get regional feats past level 1, if you have taken 2 ranks of Knowledge (Local) since the last regional feat.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Fair enough. Instead of asking "How would that help?", you could just say that straight away. You're still wrong, though. Familiars can qualify for the feat, if they hail from a region that qualifies (Celene, Lendore Isles, Verbobonc). Familiars typically don't get feats, but psicrystals do - a psion could use this trick easily.Actually, familiars do get feats. You can retrain out their racial feats, use psychic reformation, the DCFS, or the negative levels/greater restoration/thought bottle trick/mind rape/etc. to swap them out.


@Maxi: You can get regional feats past level 1, if you have taken 2 ranks of Knowledge (Local) since the last regional feat.That makes it much easier, then. Fewer XP wasted on psychic reformation.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Actually, familiars do get feats. You can retrain out their racial feats, use psychic reformation, the DCFS, or the negative levels/greater restoration/thought bottle trick/mind rape/etc. to swap them out.
Right, that will do it, but I was trying to get it into the backstory, so it's better if you straight up get a feat at level 1 (maybe a flaw, if familiars or crystals can take those?). A single use of polymorph at wizard college is a lot easier to swallow than uses of DCFS or mind rape :P.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Right, that will do it, but I was trying to get it into the backstory, so it's better if you straight up get a feat at level 1 (maybe a flaw, if familiars or crystals can take those?). A single use of polymorph at wizard college is a lot easier to swallow than uses of DCFS or mind rape :P.Remember that racial feats can be subbed out, too. That Alertness feat? It can go stuff itself. You're now Faerie Mysteries Initiate. "Come to daddy, Pikachu." "Pika!"

[ShurikVch]

Psychic reformation is a thing. If you can find someone willing (or unwillingly willing), negative levels, some quick retraining for the first level, and either greater restoration or a thought bottle. You can also use mind rape for it. Or you could use the DCFS (especially nice, since elves have 6 free feats at first level; I'm sure most of them would love to trade in their useless shortbow proficiency feat for free hp.) I'm sure there are others.Psychic reformation and DCFS are both "willing only", so it will be a mini-quest just to get intended benefit from the feat which was taken how many levels ago?..
Also, Shun the Dark Chaos is 8th level spell; Mindrape is 9th

And scrolls are relatively cheap, for most things.Not so cheap: you unlikely to get even single scroll of Body outside Body before 3rd level - and it's assuming you don't botch the activation; Simulacrum will be more expensive, and you likely to don't get one before 8th level
And don't forget ice assassin.9th level spell
Also, considering the spell's specifics and task you want to use it for, there will be a risk to re-enact scene from the Basic Instinct (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Instinct)

A cheap scroll or spellcasting services are affordable well before you can cast a spell of that level.As I already mentioned above, scroll's cheapness is a rather relative thing, and availability of spellcasting services is strictly DM-dependent

[MaxiDuRaritry]

As I mentioned, most elves and undead will want FMI. It shouldn't take much to convince one that having an extra 75 hp is a good thing.