Medium vs light armor

[Feuerphoenix]

Hey guys,

I was asking myself, wether there is a difference at all between light and medium armor, and whether it makes a difference, when you are incapacitated.For example, that your AC drops to 13, while you are subjected by hold person, and you are wearing a studded leather armor.

Thank you :)

[Gastronomie]

The main thing about Medium Armor is that you don't need to heavily invest in DEX to get a decent AC. Which could be good for those who don't have Heavy Armor prof. and aren't going to max out DEX.

But you can easily get Heavy Armor prof. by starting out Fighter, or dipping in a Cleric Domain that gives you Heavy Armor prof.

Medium Armor is really… you know… "in-between". It requires you have decent DEX, but if your DEX is pretty high, Light is better. With meh DEX you'll wanna invest in STR, in which Heavy Armor offers you damn good AC.

So, I haven't seen Medium Armor in actual use that much.

[RickAllison]

The main thing about Medium Armor is that you don't need to heavily invest in DEX to get a decent AC. Which could be good for those who don't have Heavy Armor prof. and aren't going to max out DEX.

But you can easily get Heavy Armor prof. by starting out Fighter, or dipping in a Cleric Domain that gives you Heavy Armor prof.

Medium Armor is really… you know… "in-between". It requires you have decent DEX, but if your DEX is pretty high, Light is better. With meh DEX you'll wanna invest in STR, in which Heavy Armor offers you damn good AC.

So, I haven't seen Medium Armor in actual use that much.

In my experience, medium armor is best for casters. They can start with Dex at 14 and have great AC with little investment, especially if they get appropriate boosts from their race. To get to 17 AC, half-plate with 14 Dex is the cheapest route for ability scores. Comparable heavy armor requires 15 (which with point-buy is worth a +1 to all checks, saves, and attacks with the ability). Medium armor is best when one wants to be as SAD as possible when either Str or Dex is not your primary stat.

[R.Shackleford]

Hey guys,

I was asking myself, wether there is a difference at all between light and medium armor, and whether it makes a difference, when you are incapacitated.For example, that your AC drops to 13, while you are subjected by hold person, and you are wearing a studded leather armor.

Thank you :)

Hold Person doesn't do anything to your AC.

Paralyzation...

A paralyzed creature is incapacitated (see the condition) and can’t move or speak.

The creature automatically fails Strength and Dexterity saving throws.

Attack rolls against the creature have advantage.

Any attack that hits the creature is a critical hit if the attacker is within 5 feet of the creature.

****
You auto crit (which might be an auto hit technically...) if you are within 5 ' and any other attack has advantage. Your AC doesn't change.

Even incapacitated and unconscious doesn't change your AC.

[Gastronomie]

In my experience, medium armor is best for casters. They can start with Dex at 14 and have great AC with little investment, especially if they get appropriate boosts from their race. To get to 17 AC, half-plate with 14 Dex is the cheapest route for ability scores. Comparable heavy armor requires 15 (which with point-buy is worth a +1 to all checks, saves, and attacks with the ability). Medium armor is best when one wants to be as SAD as possible when either Str or Dex is not your primary stat.How do Casters get Medium Armor? Besides Clerics and multiclassing.

Racial abilities, I guess?

[p_johnston]

I found that the first time any of my players started to seriously consider medium armor was the first time we moved to a point buy system. Medium armor gives a better, or equal, AC to light until you get 20 Dex, even when sneaking.
studded leather 12+dex
Breastplate 14+(dex with a max of 2)
even at 18 Dex the AC for both is 16 with no penalty to stealth.

Getting enough Dex to make light truly better is really hard without putting a couple of feat/skill advancements straight into Dex.

Also with Medium armor master you can get AC to 18 with no shield and no stealth penalty, when wearing half-plate.

Overall Medium armor can be pretty good.

[Theodoxus]

Totally depends on what you find too. My life cleric got an adamantine half plate+1; so the fact that his Dex is 14 helped out - no need to grab Medium armor mastery... Sold the chain mail he had been wearing pretty quick.

Pretty much any character I'm playing that can wear medium, but not heavy, wears medium - unless they're big on stealth. My barbarian didn't care, so wore half plate. My ranger did, and wore studded until I could get MAM and then Disad on stealth was taken care of.

[R.Shackleford]

How do Casters get Medium Armor? Besides Clerics and multiclassing.

Racial abilities, I guess?

Dragon Sorcerers and Warlocks get auto mage armor.

Wizards and Wild Sorcerers get Mage Armor.

Bards get medium armor through subclass.

Warlocks need 1 feat to get medium armor

[RickAllison]

How do Casters get Medium Armor? Besides Clerics and multiclassing.

Racial abilities, I guess?

No, those are basically it. Clerics, dips into numerous half-casters and martials, and that one type of dwarf. Also the Favored Soul, but that one is UA. It may not be worth dipping on its own, but there are a variety of useful dips for full casters that give medium armor. Paladin 2 for Smiting, Fighter 2 for Action Surge, etc.

[djreynolds]

I had a mountain dwarf abjurer with half-plate and a 10dex, 15AC. Good enough, saves a spell slot on mage armor. So yeah, casters who can get this from a trait, go for it.

But for a melee class who might have a high strength and good dex, breastplate suffers no disadvantage for stealth so there is no need for MAM, unless you can afford it.

I don't know how common magic half plate is.

[Feuerphoenix]

Hold Person doesn't do anything to your AC.

Paralyzation...

A paralyzed creature is incapacitated (see the condition) and can’t move or speak.

The creature automatically fails Strength and Dexterity saving throws.

Attack rolls against the creature have advantage.

Any attack that hits the creature is a critical hit if the attacker is within 5 feet of the creature.

****
You auto crit (which might be an auto hit technically...) if you are within 5 ' and any other attack has advantage. Your AC doesn't change.

Even incapacitated and unconscious doesn't change your AC.


Yes I am aware that there is nothing written in the rules. But for me, it is quite logic, that You lose your AC granted by dex, when you are incapacitated, because You can't move! Also your shield should not count anymore, because you can't raise anymore. And in this case, medium armor would be much better. If I would be the dm, I would reduce your armor to its base value.



I am asking this, because my next char will be a dex paladin, and I wanted him to wear a half plate with medium armor master in addition. But I don't know whether is worth it, besides roleplay, and it does for better to a paladin.

[Gastronomie]

DEX Paladins (Rapier + Shield) are much better than people seem to believe (higher initiative, higher DEX saves, good ranged option when you need them). Just don't forget that to Multiclass later, you still need 13 STR.

And yeah, now that you've mentioned it it's true that with DEX Paladins, medium armor is a good option.

In fact, I just remembered that the particular DEX Paladin I saw did use medium armor. I just completely forgot it.

Connected to that: keep in mind that if you're gonna use Half Plate, you might get good AC, but you have disadvantage on Stealth checks. If your Paladin is Devotion or something and doesn't care about hiding in the first place, it's fine - but if he's say, either Vengeance or Oathbreaker, given he's centered around DEX, ambushing is an insanely effective option all the time, and the downside of Half Plate could get in your way often (the particular DEX Paladin I saw my friend use had a Breastplate, being Vengeance and being fine with ambushing and decieving foes). Depends on what oath (and what sort of character) you're going for.

Breastplate has 1 lower AC than Half Plate, but doesn't bestow disadvantage on your Stealth. Choose whichever seems to fit your character's style.

[Rysto]

On a Paladin with Dex 20, light armour will provide the same AC as half-plate without the disadvantage on stealth checks.

[Feuerphoenix]

DEX Paladins (Rapier + Shield) are much better than people seem to believe (higher initiative, higher DEX saves, good ranged option when you need them). Just don't forget that to Multiclass later, you still need 13 STR.

And yeah, now that you've mentioned it it's true that with DEX Paladins, medium armor is a good option.

In fact, I just remembered that the particular DEX Paladin I saw did use medium armor. I just completely forgot it.

Connected to that: keep in mind that if you're gonna use Half Plate, you might get good AC, but you have disadvantage on Stealth checks. If your Paladin is Devotion or something and doesn't care about hiding in the first place, it's fine - but if he's say, either Vengeance or Oathbreaker, given he's centered around DEX, ambushing is an insanely effective option all the time, and the downside of Half Plate could get in your way often (the particular DEX Paladin I saw my friend use had a Breastplate, being Vengeance and being fine with ambushing and decieving foes). Depends on what oath (and what sort of character) you're going for.

Breastplate has 1 lower AC than Half Plate, but doesn't bestow disadvantage on your Stealth. Choose whichever seems to fit your character's style.


So to tell you my ideas, I want to play a former pirate drow, who was sacrificed by his crew to end a storm, after they slaughtered a ship full of Talos priests. And as he is sinking to the sea, a fiery being grabs him, bursting out of the water, and carrying him to land, where swears this being the Oath of the eternal flame (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/HJM6viUH), and has to learn, what it means to be a paladin.

So effectively, my character is a drow+ sailor (pirate) with athletics exchanged to acrobatics.

Although I want to max out DEX, I was wondering, why I should not take medium armor, as it grants me benefits equal to a pull plate with a feat (plus this feat gives me an additional +1 to Dex and no disadv. to stealth checks).

[R.Shackleford]

Yes I am aware that there is nothing written in the rules. But for me, it is quite logic, that You lose your AC granted by dex, when you are incapacitated, because You can't move! Also your shield should not count anymore, because you can't raise anymore. And in this case, medium armor would be much better. If I would be the dm, I would reduce your armor to its base value.



I am asking this, because my next char will be a dex paladin, and I wanted him to wear a half plate with medium armor master in addition. But I don't know whether is worth it, besides roleplay, and it does for better to a paladin.

You are missing a huuuuuge issue here.

Giving advantage on attack rolls is essentially lowering the target's AC! It is just a simple and more streamlined way of doing thing.

Instead of giving advantage they could have had your AC change or made it where you had two or three AC (think 3e) but that is troublesome and really should never come back. The Advantage system works so nicely.

Besides hitting AC isn't just about connecting with the target. You can miss the AC of a target and still physically hit the target. You just didn't do enough to make an impact on the target.

If you want to change ACs when creatures are under certain effects then you should get rid of the advantage on attack rolls against them. I don't really suggest this as you are getting way too fiddy at this point.

[Feuerphoenix]

You are missing a huuuuuge issue here.

Giving advantage on attack rolls is essentially lowering the target's AC! It is just a simple and more streamlined way of doing thing.

Instead of giving advantage they could have had your AC change or made it where you had two or three AC (think 3e) but that is troublesome and really should never come back. The Advantage system works so nicely.

Besides hitting AC isn't just about connecting with the target. You can miss the AC of a target and still physically hit the target. You just didn't do enough to make an impact on the target.

If you want to change ACs when creatures are under certain effects then you should get rid of the advantage on attack rolls against them. I don't really suggest this as you are getting way too fiddy at this point.

Well you have a point there. But still, does not feel right. When you are running around with a studded leather armor, which as no real helmet and no real protection against piercing force, when you can not move, someone may just cut your gut. This seems quite logic, as with only 13 AC fining a spot to cut with a dagger is a fairly easy task, but with an AC of 20, you consider someone being in a full plate. But your AC is a result of evading hits,due your agility. At least I would rule, that you loose your Dex AC during your incapacitation and maybe half of it, during gapping or restraining. This punishes DEX chars, but they are stronger anyways, because of their stronger attribute, game-wise.

[R.Shackleford]

Well you have a point there. But still, does not feel right. When you are running around with a studded leather armor, which as no real helmet and no real protection against piercing force, when you can not move, someone may just cut your gut. This seems quite logic, as with only 13 AC fining a spot to cut with a dagger is a fairly easy task, but with an AC of 20, you consider someone being in a full plate. But your AC is a result of evading hits,due your agility. At least I would rule, that you loose your Dex AC during your incapacitation and maybe half of it, during gapping or restraining. This punishes DEX chars, but they are stronger anyways, because of their stronger attribute, game-wise.

Go read up on armor. Armor doesn't make you harder to come in contact with, it just reduces the damage you take when you are in contact with a weapon.

If you want a better representation of Armor and attack rolls... I would say to find a post by Kryx and look at the house rules for changing AC to damage reduction and attack rolls into a reflex save.

Same level of complexity as 5e but more "realistic" when it comes to armor.

The current 5e system imitates combat, it doesn't simulate combat.

[fearsomepirate]

Go read up on armor. Armor doesn't make you harder to come in contact with, it just reduces the damage you take when you are in contact with a weapon.
No, it converts cuts, stabs, and the like into dispersed blunt force and direct hits into glancing blows, or even cause a blade to richochet. The sack-of-HP model is a terrible way to represent a human, so it's not really accurate to say that catching an arrow on your shield or a rapier thrust being deflected off your surface-hardened steel cuiriass means you take "less damage."

[Once a Fool]

This punishes DEX chars, but they are stronger anyways, because of their stronger attribute, game-wise.

This isn't really true in 5e (until you add in Crossbow Master and, especially, Sharpshooter -- but that's a problem with the feats, not the balance of stats). Dex saves might be more numerous, but Str saves are more important to pass. Strength skills are crazy powerful in 5e. Heavy armor at its best is more effective than lighter armors. And then, of course, there are Great Weapon Master, Polearm Master, and Sentinel -- each of which is powerful and all of which synergize very well.

Basically, getting rid of AC bonuses when incapacitated fixes a problem that doesn't exist in a cumbersome way that creates a new problem.

[Easy_Lee]

No, it converts cuts, stabs, and the like into dispersed blunt force and direct hits into glancing blows, or even cause a blade to richochet. The sack-of-HP model is a terrible way to represent a human, so it's not really accurate to say that catching an arrow on your shield or a rapier thrust being deflected off your surface-hardened steel cuiriass means you take "less damage."

Well, if you want to get really technical about armor, it should basically invalidate thrusts and slashes, but not blunt trauma. Also there were many weapons, such as estocs and certain daggers, specifically designed for stabbing through gaps, and thus negating armor.

I believe d&d ascribes to the notion that amor reduces the number of gaps, thus requiring foes to either swing really hard or target the holes. That said, armor as DR probably makes the most game sense.

[R.Shackleford]

No, it converts cuts, stabs, and the like into dispersed blunt force and direct hits into glancing blows, or even cause a blade to richochet. The sack-of-HP model is a terrible way to represent a human, so it's not really accurate to say that catching an arrow on your shield or a rapier thrust being deflected off your surface-hardened steel cuiriass means you take "less damage."

Not even close to what D&D does.

D&D is not a real world simulation game, it emulates some things but not everything.

Also there is no "sack of HP" issue with using armor as DR.



This isn't really true in 5e (until you add in Crossbow Master and, especially, Sharpshooter -- but that's a problem with the feats, not the balance of stats). Dex saves might be more numerous, but Str saves are more important to pass. Strength skills are crazy powerful in 5e. Heavy armor at its best is more effective than lighter armors. And then, of course, there are Great Weapon Master, Polearm Master, and Sentinel -- each of which is powerful and all of which synergize very well.

Basically, getting rid of AC bonuses when incapacitated fixes a problem that doesn't exist in a cumbersome way that creates a new problem.

Bingo.

5e already gets rid of bonuses, by giving advantage. Most creatures and PCs won't have a higher than +3.33 Dex mod. That advantage is 5e's way of, for the most, getting rid of bonus to AC.

[GlenSmash!]

Just about every barbarian that doesn't want to heavily invest in Dex and/or Con will use Medium armor. I've also seen a polearm master Ranger build that used a breastplate.

[Belac93]

Medium armour is best used for characters who have proficiency in it, are unlikely to have more than +2 in dexterity, but still may want to sneak (examples: Warlocks with moderately armoured, dwarven spellcasters, most barbarians). Heavy armour makes it so you cannot sneak, and requires a high strength.

[R.Shackleford]

Medium armour is best used for characters who have proficiency in it, are unlikely to have more than +2 in dexterity, but still may want to sneak (examples: Warlocks with moderately armoured, dwarven spellcasters, most barbarians). Heavy armour makes it so you cannot sneak, and requires a high strength.

Note

Heavy Armored Rogue or Bard can sneak fantastically well. Especially the Rogue once their minimum roll is 10.

I love the armored rogue haha

[Vogonjeltz]

Well you have a point there. But still, does not feel right. When you are running around with a studded leather armor, which as no real helmet and no real protection against piercing force, when you can not move, someone may just cut your gut. This seems quite logic, as with only 13 AC fining a spot to cut with a dagger is a fairly easy task, but with an AC of 20, you consider someone being in a full plate. But your AC is a result of evading hits,due your agility. At least I would rule, that you loose your Dex AC during your incapacitation and maybe half of it, during gapping or restraining. This punishes DEX chars, but they are stronger anyways, because of their stronger attribute, game-wise.

Heavy armor is already vastly superior to Light and Medium armor because of the higher AC maximum, not being reliant on Dexterity, and keying off the stronger attribute, game-wise, of Strength.

[Easy_Lee]

Heavy armor is already vastly superior to Light and Medium armor because of the higher AC maximum, not being reliant on Dexterity, and keying off the stronger attribute, game-wise, of Strength.

Heavy armor does have one major drawback, if your DM is cruel: Heat Metal.

[Vogonjeltz]

Heavy armor does have one major drawback, if your DM is cruel: Heat Metal.

True enough, but medium armor except hide all shares that flaw too (AFB but I think there's a metal based light armor as well)

[RickAllison]

Heavy armor does have one major drawback, if your DM is cruel: Heat Metal.

Actually, that is a worry no matter what armor you wear if it is metal. Even metal light admits take a minute to doff, which is the full time of Heat Metal. It is the big reason why everyone, not just Druids, should be happy for nonmetal medium armor.

[R.Shackleford]

Actually, that is a worry no matter what armor you wear if it is metal. Even metal light admits take a minute to doff, which is the full time of Heat Metal. It is the big reason why everyone, not just Druids, should be happy for nonmetal medium armor.

I love playing a sword and board Barbarian with medium armor (metal) and a shield (metal). Heat Metal's disadvantage is countered with Reckless Attack and it doesn't take too many face bashes to get a Druid to stop concentrating on Heat Metal after they targeted my shield (bonus fire damage!).

[RickAllison]

I love playing a sword and board Barbarian with medium armor (metal) and a shield (metal). Heat Metal's disadvantage is countered with Reckless Attack and it doesn't take too many face bashes to get a Druid to stop concentrating on Heat Metal after they targeted my shield (bonus fire damage!).

"This backfired in a way I did not anticipate!!"