Nature cleric opinions

[poolio]

So i have a nature domain cleric I'm working on, not when I'll put him into action but i digress, he would fallow fenrir, a god of wolves from an older edition, and i was thinking about switching some of the domain spells for some that are a little more thematic, stuff like taking out some of the plant related spells and going for more animal and cold based spells, cold for the harsh winter climates the wolves he would have been around come from, and wanted to run them by you guys to see what you all thought :)

1st: animal friendship, speak with animals,
Both fit nice with the what I'm going for, nothing really needs changing here.

3rd: barkskin, spike growth,
I like spike growth cause it seems like something that would prove useful for hunting with his pack (part of his story involves living his life among wolves and helping to care for them, kinda like a cross between Tarzan and Jane goodall, but with wolves) but switch barkskin for ether animal messenger, or moonbeam (i mean wolves like howling at the moon after all).

5th: plant growth, wind wall,
Neither of these really strike me as good spells for this characters theam, so instead of plant growth, i was thinking conjure animals, I'll be able to call my own pact of wolves to battle whenever i want, big plus, and wind wall for sleet storm, ice and cold seem to be a bit more akin to winter loving wolves to me.

7th: dominant beast, grasping vine,
Both seem alright, but I'd like to be able trade one out, grasping vine perhaps, for ice storm, for obvious reasons by now.

9th: insect plague, tree stride,
Now here's a tricky one, insect plague is not gonna cut it, it's good damage with AOE and continued damage on fallowing turns, but, it's a bunch of bugs, doesn't fit well now does it? So i was thinking about cone of cold, the only problem i see with that is that it's the only spell not on the druid list I'm pulling from, i don't think it's that much of a stretch to assume his high level spells would include unleashing a freezing blast, but hay, if you guys don't think it makes sense I'll probably get over the idea, anyway, tree stride is a really useful spell for getting around, but I'd rather give up utility in this case for stone wall, again this would match the hunting theam by being used to cut off prays escape routes.

Well that's what I've been thinking about, so i guess all i want to know is if you all think it might be to much, wether some of the switches being a little over powerd or just don't fit or something I'm not thinking about, anyway thanks in advance for your opinions everyone, they always help give more insight and perspective, and hopefully i can get my DM to agree to so many changes to the spell list :P lol

[hymer]

Barkskin for animal messenger is fine, but for Moonbeam I'd consider that a minor bump upwards in power and usefulness.
Getting Conjure Animals has all the alarm bells going off. It's in the top five, probably top three of great third level spells; some would argue it is the very best third level spell in the game (all that supposes it makes sense to rate spells like that).
Grasping vine is an awfully situational spell, and Ice Storm is a definite bump.

[Herobizkit]

It sounds to me like you want to be a Druid.

And you should be, because it gets all of the things you want as well as shape-shifting INTO a wolf. ^_^

The only thing you'd lose is the Heavy Armor Proficiency.

[Biggstick]

As Hero said above me, it sounds like you want to play a Druid.

One example I noticed was your choice of Wall of Stone in place of Tree Stride. Your reasoning to have Wall of Stone on the list instead of Tree Stride was the ability to cut off escaping prey. That is quite an expensive spell slot to deal with that particular situation. Why not burn a 3rd level spell slot for Plant Growth instead? Oh that's right, you're trying to get rid of that spell as well. Plant Growth is an incredibly useful spell to redirect foes by creating a massive area of 2x difficult terrain. What's better about the spell is you can create any sort of path you like within this difficult terrain to coral your enemy exactly where you want them.

The only swap that seems like a similar power swap is your Barkskin for Animal Messenger. Every other request is an spell upgrade for damage instead of utility.

[poolio]

Yeah, as i was looking at it while typing everything out i was definitely starting to think i was just making a druid lol okay well i guess I'll have to just consider going druid instead, plus land druids get some slots back on short rests which is always good, thanks for the impute guys, and if anyone else has any ideas or criticisms please feel free to share :)

[poolio]

Yeah, as i was looking at it while typing everything out i was definitely starting to think i was just making a druid lol okay well i guess I'll have to just consider going druid instead, plus land druids get some slots back on short rests which is always good, thanks for the impute guys, and if anyone else has any ideas or criticisms please feel free to share :)

[MrFahrenheit]

Both are primary casters, and actually play quite similarly due to that fact (plus being able to go off-martial if necessary). Ask yourself this: Would you rather keep metal armor, or wild shape? If the former, stay cleric; if the latter, go Druid.

[eastmabl]

A good "nature-based cleric" can be a druid with the Acolyte background.

[RickAllison]

A good "nature-based cleric" can be a druid with the Acolyte background.

I think there was even some fluff in the PHB that Druids were the predecessors of clerics, essentially being the clerics of the Old Faith, nature.

[Vogonjeltz]

So i have a nature domain cleric I'm working on, not when I'll put him into action but i digress, he would fallow fenrir, a god of wolves from an older edition, and i was thinking about switching some of the domain spells for some that are a little more thematic, stuff like taking out some of the plant related spells and going for more animal and cold based spells, cold for the harsh winter climates the wolves he would have been around come from, and wanted to run them by you guys to see what you all thought :)

Have you considered perhaps using a Ranger instead? They have the animal based spells, plus they can have a wolf companion which would be pretty thematic. That or perhaps a Druid would allow you to follow the nature path without having your spells lie fallow.


1st: animal friendship, speak with animals,
Both fit nice with the what I'm going for, nothing really needs changing here.

3rd: barkskin, spike growth,
I like spike growth cause it seems like something that would prove useful for hunting with his pack (part of his story involves living his life among wolves and helping to care for them, kinda like a cross between Tarzan and Jane goodall, but with wolves) but switch barkskin for ether animal messenger, or moonbeam (i mean wolves like howling at the moon after all).

Yes, very Mowgli of Kipling's The Jungle Book, or Romulus and Remus of Roman myth.

Something of note for your roleplaying, wolves howl to communicate, they howl more at night because they are nocturnal. It's apocryphal that they howl at the moon, the moon just coincides with their waking hours, and moonlight would provide more light for hunting, but they wouldn't need it having much better nightvision than humans.


5th: plant growth, wind wall,
Neither of these really strike me as good spells for this characters theam, so instead of plant growth, i was thinking conjure animals, I'll be able to call my own pact of wolves to battle whenever i want, big plus, and wind wall for sleet storm, ice and cold seem to be a bit more akin to winter loving wolves to me.

7th: dominant beast, grasping vine,
Both seem alright, but I'd like to be able trade one out, grasping vine perhaps, for ice storm, for obvious reasons by now.

Conjure spells don't allow the player to select what shows up, so you'd need DM buy-in to ensure the spirits take wolf form. I expect most DMs would allow it for thematic reasons.



9th: insect plague, tree stride,
Now here's a tricky one, insect plague is not gonna cut it, it's good damage with AOE and continued damage on fallowing turns, but, it's a bunch of bugs, doesn't fit well now does it? So i was thinking about cone of cold, the only problem i see with that is that it's the only spell not on the druid list I'm pulling from, i don't think it's that much of a stretch to assume his high level spells would include unleashing a freezing blast, but hay, if you guys don't think it makes sense I'll probably get over the idea, anyway, tree stride is a really useful spell for getting around, but I'd rather give up utility in this case for stone wall, again this would match the hunting theam by being used to cut off prays escape routes.

Well that's what I've been thinking about, so i guess all i want to know is if you all think it might be to much, wether some of the switches being a little over powerd or just don't fit or something I'm not thinking about, anyway thanks in advance for your opinions everyone, they always help give more insight and perspective, and hopefully i can get my DM to agree to so many changes to the spell list :P lol

How about Awaken? You'd use it to create a pack of intelligent wolves who, if you treat them well, would remain allies and you could develop a bit of a following. Call them "The Children of Fenrir" and use it as the basis of new mythology for your character's religion, preventing it from falling fallow.

[poolio]

Have you considered perhaps using a Ranger instead? They have the animal based spells, plus they can have a wolf companion which would be pretty thematic. That or perhaps a Druid would allow you to follow the nature path without having your spells lie fallow.



Yes, very Mowgli of Kipling's The Jungle Book, or Romulus and Remus of Roman myth.

Something of note for your roleplaying, wolves howl to communicate, they howl more at night because they are nocturnal. It's apocryphal that they howl at the moon, the moon just coincides with their waking hours, and moonlight would provide more light for hunting, but they wouldn't need it having much better nightvision than humans.



Conjure spells don't allow the player to select what shows up, so you'd need DM buy-in to ensure the spirits take wolf form. I expect most DMs would allow it for thematic reasons.



How about Awaken? You'd use it to create a pack of intelligent wolves who, if you treat them well, would remain allies and you could develop a bit of a following. Call them "The Children of Fenrir" and use it as the basis of new mythology for your character's religion, preventing it from falling fallow.

Well i learned a few new things, I'll definitely have to look into that, thanks,

And for those wondering, i was going nature cleric mostly cause i just like clerics, i didn't think the switching in of a bunch of attacking spells was all that bad cause of how much the tempest and light domains got, but considering it's my character i might be a little bised :P lol

[hymer]

Well i learned a few new things, I'll definitely have to look into that, thanks,

And for those wondering, i was going nature cleric mostly cause i just like clerics, i didn't think the switching in of a bunch of attacking spells was all that bad cause of how much the tempest and light domains got, but considering it's my character i might be a little bised :P lol

In the end it's up to your DM to allow anything of the sort. If s/he sees it as fair, you're good, and can play the class you like. But as has been mentioned, druids and clerics are really very similar, and the druid seems to be able to do all the things you want as is.

[R.Shackleford]

Personally I prefer the Nature Based Cleric to the Druid as I find wildshape to be a very meh feature.

Cool but not really worth my time as their peaks are level 2 and 18 and my groups average levels are 5 to 14.

I will say one thing. The most hilarious use of Warcaster is on the Nature Cleric.

Animal Friendship, when cast as a first level spell, is a one action one target spell and works with Warcaster.

Booping a Beast in the nose and telling it to behave itself is just hilarious.

You can do this with a Druid but their weak AC means you typically don't want them in a position to use this in melee.

[MaxBoguely]

As others have said, you just have to work it out with your DM, but FWIW I don't think I'd allow these substitutions and still let you keep the Nature Cleric chassis. The Nature Domain is one of the more martial-leaning domains (heavy armor/divine strike), whereas light and arcane (the blasty ones) are designed to be good at casting, not toe-to-toe fighting, as a primary mechanism.

Land druid seems to be the way to go, assuming you want to be doing mostly casting. Choose Arctic as your land type, and your circle spell list will basically cover what you want: various cold-based damage spells and some utility ones that you can easily flavor to fit your wolf theme. For your cantrips (you'll have 3 by level 2), you can take Gust and Frostbite for "controlling the cold winter winds" and Druidcraft to give you flavor/RP options. Your at-will needs will be pretty well covered and then you can take a different cantrip at level 4 that fits with what's happened to your character in that time.

Someone mentioned that wild shape is kind of meh for a Land druid, and that's not entirely incorrect, mechanically speaking. But remember that a Land druid is designed to be primarily spell-based, so you shouldn't feel obligated to turn into a wolf and get into melee in every fight - use it in those niche situations when you need to be sneaky or fast, or just in cool RP moments where it would fit! You could talk to your DM and see if you could make it just a wolf form - basically you trade out the ability to change into non-wolf shapes, but the wolf form you get is better than normal in some way.

In any event, I really think the Land druid best fits the theme you're going for if I understand it - a guy with cold-based nature powers out on his own not really part of any organized clergy that kind of lives among the wolves but isn't exactly one of them. BUT if you wanted to keep the cleric and let him be a little more comfortable in civilization but still kind of "think like a wolf," I thought of this potential cleric option:

The TL;DR is: Take Trickery Domain and become an elusive, agile, pack-minded hunter.

-Pump Dex (maybe before Wis) and use light/medium armor as appropriate and a finesse weapon with a small shield. You can also dual wield, but clerics get a lot of good uses for their bonus actions, so the value may be reduced.
-Use Invoke Duplicity (level 2) to mimic wolves' "Pack Tactics" feature (have the duplicity "attack" a target with you, giving you advantages on your attacks).
-Use Cloak of Shadows (level 6) to become particularly evasive in key moments during fights
-Maybe ask your DM if you can get cold damage on your Divine Strike (level 8) instead of poison. As a substitution, this is a lot less of a change that swapping out entire spells

Your Domain spells are good at making you cunning and effective hunter, and you can flavor them for a cunning wolf theme:

Level 1: Charm person (using the power of the moon! I know somebody corrected the misconception that wolves in real life particularly care about the moon, but this is a fantasy setting...it works if you want to keep it) and disguise self (give yourself the ability to stalk your prey in places you wouldn't be welcome)
Level 3: Mirror Image (something something "pack of one") and Pass Without Trace (actually make your "pack" as stealthy as you so they can help you hunt)
Level 5: Blink (More evasiveness in combat) and Dispel Magic (more moon power)
Level 7: Dimension Door (admittedly tough to fit into this theme, but hopefully by level 7 you can find something in the campaign to make this work thematically) and Polymorph (become a wolf-like creature of level-appropriate power)
Level 9: Dominate Person and Modify Memory (affect people's minds using the power of the moon.

Putting all this together, you could play this as a character who spent his time in the woods with the wolves via your backstory and learned to think like they do - using violence to achieve your goals, but using your cunning to make sure that you and your allies have the advantage when said violence finally occurs. Now he's returned to civilization, and he applies that philosophy to the world of men. He's always describing/thinking about everything in terms of hunter/prey and pack loyalty, and he is ruthless in achieving his goals.

[RickAllison]

Wild Shape is certainly not meh for a land Druid, though it is better for Moon. Get a good concentration spell off and then go around being an insect while raining down fire and lightning on your foes. Ever tried swatting a fly with a hammer? Good luck, those guys are freaking fighter pilots that require specialized gear to reliably hit.

[hymer]

Ever tried swatting a fly with a hammer?

I that case I'd just use my hand. The main reason I use a swatter isn't a more likely hit (I think I'd hit better with a flat hand, actually), it's to avoid getting splattered fly on me. :smalleek: Then there's the worry of damaging something with my hand, like a window.

[RickAllison]

I that case I'd just use my hand. The main reason I use a swatter isn't a more likely hit (I think I'd hit better with a flat hand, actually), it's to avoid getting splattered fly on me. :smalleek: Then there's the worry of damaging something with my hand, like a window.

Fly swatters (autocorrect nearly had me type sweaters, which seems like an entertaining, but sad idea) are really effective because the surface of jokes breaks up the air current riding on the front. A full-grown fly is quite proficient at evading hands, combing the maneuverability of a helicopter with the relative speed of a jet.

Quite remarkable, actually, flies have been found to use techniques that fighter pilots created (I am fairly sure the flies had it first). In terms of flying capability, they are miles ahead of birds.

[hymer]

surface of jokes

What did auto-correct mangle there?

[RickAllison]

What did auto-correct mangle there?

Holes :smallsmile:

[MaxBoguely]

Wild Shape is certainly not meh for a land Druid, though it is better for Moon. Get a good concentration spell off and then go around being an insect while raining down fire and lightning on your foes. Ever tried swatting a fly with a hammer? Good luck, those guys are freaking fighter pilots that require specialized gear to reliably hit.

Reasonable people can disagree, I guess, but this doesn't really seem in the spirit of the character described in the OP. It's much more "playful forest trickster" than "rugged arctic wolf-child."

[R.Shackleford]

Wild Shape is certainly not meh for a land Druid, though it is better for Moon. Get a good concentration spell off and then go around being an insect while raining down fire and lightning on your foes. Ever tried swatting a fly with a hammer? Good luck, those guys are freaking fighter pilots that require specialized gear to reliably hit.

Wildshape is one of the most overrated abilities in the game. Like, yes, it is decent but it isn't earth shattering (well, outside of level 2 and then again starting at level 18).

It isn't very well laid out for a finished project and interacts weirdly with multiclass (another reason MC feels rushed and just tacked on). People are still confused about if you can unarmed strike in animal form...

It could have been made much simpler. Taking from the 3.5 PHB2 or 4e druid would have worked well for 5e (at-will no stat change wildshape)

Wildshape doesn't give you anymore utility than what any run of the mill arcane caster can have. Once the arcane casters get polymorph the differences are negligible (well until onion druid and true polymorph/shapechange come online).

Wildshape comes in early but... Meh. Nothing special. Hell, you get Fly at level 5 and Polymorph at 7 if you are an arcane caster... You can't have a fly speed to level 8. Wizard with familiar can send an animal to track/spy with less chance of danger.

Wildshape is cool but realy nothing *wow* worthy.

[RickAllison]

Wildshape is one of the most overrated abilities in the game. Like, yes, it is decent but it isn't earth shattering (well, outside of level 2 and then again starting at level 18).

It isn't very well laid out for a finished project and interacts weirdly with multiclass (another reason MC feels rushed and just tacked on). People are still confused about if you can unarmed strike in animal form...

It could have been made much simpler. Taking from the 3.5 PHB2 or 4e druid would have worked well for 5e (at-will no stat change wildshape)

Wildshape doesn't give you anymore utility than what any run of the mill arcane caster can have. Once the arcane casters get polymorph the differences are negligible (well until onion druid and true polymorph/shapechange come online).

Wildshape comes in early but... Meh. Nothing special. Hell, you get Fly at level 5 and Polymorph at 7 if you are an arcane caster... You can't have a fly speed to level 8. Wizard with familiar can send an animal to track/spy with less chance of danger.

Wildshape is cool but realy nothing *wow* worthy.

Even when Polymorph is available, Wild Shape still trumps it. Instead of costing that level 7+ Caster one of his bread-and-butter slots, it gets to be used twice per short rest. If the Druid is able to save slots on Fly and Polymorph, he gets to use those for other fights or obstacles.

Familiars do provide a more compelling argument. They can do many of the things that Druids can do, but the Druid does it better. In the time it takes the familiar to change into a new form for what is needed (flight, Stealth, blindsight, etc.), the Druid gets two forms that can be chosen when needed. Familiars are better if there are liable to be dangerous traps, but Wild Shape is better because it is far more flexible.

So yes, other casters can mimic the features of Wild Shape, but it costs them valuable resources and time in order to be an inferior copy. Wild Shape isn't fantastic because it lets be Druid do things no one else can do, it is fantastic because it lets them be more flexible and better at it than anyone. It is comparable to a Rogue picking a lock with Expertise: yes, others can do it and can expend resources to be almost as good, but he is consistently better and more flexible at it (Bardic Inspiration and Guidance can pop someone else to match them and even surpass them a bit, but could also be applied on the rogue to make him even better!).

That being said, I acknowledge that it is often overrated, especially for combat. The best use I see for it in combat is the ability to replicate certain concentration spells like Fly to stay out of trouble while also leveraging the powerful concentration spells of the Druid.

[R.Shackleford]

You are looking wrong, casters don't mimic wildshape, wildshape mimics spells.

[RickAllison]

You are looking wrong, casters don't mimic wildshape, wildshape mimics spells.

It mimics and is better than them? Also, fluff-wise, spells like Polymorph were likely inspired by the ancient orders of Druids turning into animals, while spells like Fly copy what the Druids were copying already.

[Nemenia]

Did you mean: Druid?

But no seriously. a nature cleric is just a watered down druid. If you want to go heavy on the wolf thing, just pick a druid of the moon. the option couldn't be more obvious, and gets you the spells you want as well.

[R.Shackleford]

Did you mean: Druid?

But no seriously. a nature cleric is just a watered down druid. If you want to go heavy on the wolf thing, just pick a druid of the moon. the option couldn't be more obvious, and gets you the spells you want as well.

I wouldn't call any cleric a watered down... Well anything.

A Nature Cleric is different, perhaps mostly so when it comes to recognizing metal as a natural element, but it isn't watered down.

A Druid can shapeshift quite a bit at high levels but the cleric can tell any natural disaster to shut up and sit down (1/week but still quite awesome).

The cleric gets some main stay Druid Spells but also has full access to the cleric list which is quite beastly on its own.

I actually prefer a nature caster that doesn't wildshape. Like, I would actually prefer a Druid that can Metamagic nature spells than turn into beasts. Hell, the NPC druid at the back of the PHB (or MM, I forget) doesn't even get wildshape.

The Nature cleric's channel divinity is straight up awesome and is something the druid never gets.

Damn, I now want to make a nature cleric haha.

[Rysto]

The Nature cleric's channel divinity is straight up awesome and is something the druid never gets.

Did you actually mean their channel divinity (Charm Plants and Animals), or did you mean their amazing Dampen Elements ability? (which is even better than a CD because it's basically at-will -- it just consumes your reaction)

[R.Shackleford]

Did you actually mean their channel divinity (Charm Plants and Animals), or did you mean their amazing Dampen Elements ability? (which is even better than a CD because it's basically at-will -- it just consumes your reaction)

Dampen, I'm away from my book and was thinking that it was the Channel Feature.