Optimizing the unoptimizeable?

[GrayDeath]

OK, here`s a weird challenge to the "ProCrowd" of Optimizers here.

Disclaimer: I do not know if, and when in case it does, this game is going to get played. It might forever stay a mental excercise.


Now yesterday a fellow D&D Player (and the most often GMing Guy regarding D.x over here) and myself had a discussion about High Hit Die Creatures (specifically Outsiders of various types) and the strange fact that, to get a remotely good "education" in any class they pretty much have tpo be epic.

Now the inherent problems of "only advance through levelling up" systems aside, what we came up with was: What if you Gestalted them, one side being their Racial HitDie?

In the End we came along to try and get a really really strong version of any 2-3 20HD Creatures (or, if necessary 18-22) with 20 Class levels using regular Gestalt Rules with the following Modifications:

1.. No more than 1 Prestige Class, OR no more than three Classes in total, whichever you choose.

2.: For the purpose of choosing Levels of any "Class Part" of the Gestalt (prereqs of any kind for example) the following rule applies: if they can get it at level 10 if they could choose feats normally for the Race side, or if an already taken Gestalt part provides them, prereqs count as fulfilled.


3.: Feats: If the majority of the chosen Gestalt CLasses are non-full-casters (ergo the total reached casting type is at most 6/9) they get one additional Feat every 3 levels (none at L1) of their "ClassSide", if they are full Casters, one every 5 Levels (also none at L1).

4.: Even if HD and other shennanigans would allow it: nothing epic. Nada. Nilch.



Now blow us away, please?

:sabine:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Um... A 3rd level character can have skill bonuses in the +40s, if a bit of effort is put in. +40 in Knowledge (Physics) can easily discover atomic energy and envision and build an atomic generator or a bomb, if enough fuel can be found. That sounds pretty educated, to me.

[Snowbluff]

So let me get this straight: Gestalt.One side is 20 ECL of a Monster Race, and the other is Class levels and no more than one Prestige Class, or as man prestige classes but only 3 classes?

You do know that far from "unoptimizeable," right? Even one side of stuff is considered good enough to be good. :smalltongue:

They are options like Solar for getting some Cleric Casting, and then you can do more cleric casting or optimize passive stuff. You can be one of the couple of creatures that get extra actions, and pull of some combos...

[GrayDeath]

Yes, but they can do a lot to all of that even without Gestalting, and a Full Gestalt Character is far far easier to "maxx out to systemkilling levels" ^^


But yeah, thats why the limits. And I (we) would REALLY appreciate detailed builds.

@ Education: sigh, I did expect some one to balk at my choice of words, but I stay by it. A Human is far easier to educate than a Solar. ^^

[MisterKaws]

A Human is far easier to educate than a Solar. ^^

Maybe because MM Solars have already had centuries of combat experience and magic training?

Seriously, a monstrous character's base ECL represents the amount of effort taken to mastering their natural abilities, and should just be treated as taking N levels in "Monster".

[ComaVision]

1. Find a 20 HD creature.
2. Find any of the thirty billion optimized character builds.
3. Combine.
4. ???
5. Success.

[Mehangel]

1. Find a 20 HD creature.
2. Find any of the thirty billion optimized character builds.
3. Combine.
4. ???
5. Success.

Do this. Seriously.

[Snowbluff]

Hey, that's what I said!


Even one side of stuff is considered good enough to be good. :smalltongue:

[GrayDeath]

Ah well, if noone of you "PorOptimizers" feels like providing an interesting Build, with Detail and reasoning, too bad.

"Do it yourself" is a wee bit harsh of an answer when asked for something, but if thats the way it is.....:/

[ComaVision]

The thing is that you're just looking for any optimized level 20 build.

If I make a thread for help making a throwing build with some psychic powers for a mid-level game then I'll probably get some more specific suggestions like Ardent or Psychic Warrior with some feat layouts.

If I make a thread asking people to make a build without any direction then I'll get the kind of responses you're getting.

[Snowbluff]

Well, I gave a couple builds already, but here are some good ideas for your one. You can mix and match these.

RainbowWarsnake (Warmage10/Rainbow Servant 10, can spontaenously cast the whole cleric list. Works with Beguiler as well.)
Druid. This is better with a race with good mental stats rather than good physical ones.
Wizard 10/Incantatrix10. Persistent Spell, go! Grab some good buffs.
Cleric7Binder3/Anima Mage10. Use the Divine Adaptation. You might need to sort which bindings to use, so I offer Zceryll for summoning and Tenebrous for strong defensive abilities.

On the other side:

Be like a large dragon. Like a Blue Dragon. Full BAB, good saves, flight, special senses. Pick your favorite. :smallsmile:
A big demon/devil, like a Marilith (Six arms!) or a Balor (20 HD exactly, very good stats/SLAs)
Choker. +1 standard action per turn.
chronotyryn. More OP action economy.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Solar//wizard 5/dweomerkeeper 10/hierophant 3/dweomerkeeper +4. Level 22, 22nd-level cleric casting, 17th-level wizard casting, hierophant abilities. Congratulations, you're now a little more effective than a cleric/dweomerkeeper with shapechange.

@Snowbluff: Rainbow Warsnakes cast the cleric list, not the wizard list.

[Snowbluff]

@Snowbluff: Rainbow Warsnakes cast the cleric list, not the wizard list.

Derp. The dumb part is I was thinking about how many spells I didn't like in the cleric list as I was typing that. :smalltongue:

[GrayDeath]

Hmmm, true, a little to little on the direction list.


OK, I need to talk to my freind for his idea, but I`d like something that is not a full caster, but makes the best out of what it already has.

Lets say a Pit Fiend as Starters, theme of an Archdevil in the making/Rogue Hell Duke.
Give me raw power and massive amounts of resilience against any of the other Devils (save Asmodeus, I dont want to get his attention^^).
I`d prefer to be able to Duke it Our (^^) both physically and magically.

That enough as a directional ... preset? :)

[Deadline]

Hmmm, true, a little to little on the direction list.


OK, I need to talk to my freind for his idea, but I`d like something that is not a full caster, but makes the best out of what it already has.

Lets say a Pit Fiend as Starters, theme of an Archdevil in the making/Rogue Hell Duke.
Give me raw power and massive amounts of resilience against any of the other Devils (save Asmodeus, I dont want to get his attention^^).
I`d prefer to be able to Duke it Our (^^) both physically and magically.

That enough as a directional ... preset? :)

So, an optimized gestalt build where one side is the Pit Fiend, and the other side is literally anything? I see you've included a theme of "raw power and massive amounts of resilience against Devils". Can you be a bit more specific in what you want this character to do? You've repeatedly used the term "education", but I'm not sure what you mean by that in the context of the D&D universe. Do you want a character that has great skills? One that hunts other devils? Do you want a build that focuses on being a significant mover and shaker in the power and politics of the Nine Hells? You're on the right track with your direction, but in this case more is better.

[GrayDeath]

Hmmm, lets see....I`ll stay to pure fluff for that, as I want you all to provide the crunch.

I imagine a Pit Fiend that terrorizes other Pit Fiends with sheer Force of Body and Personality, someone so resilient that Dispater is already getting more paranoid (cause he thinks he wants his seat), his ultimate Goal is to rule the layer of his choice OR act as the Devil to remove Dukes of hell if Asmodeus wants a more direct approach.
Probably trained by Asmodeus in Secret, and masquerading as regular Pit Fiend until recently.

Clearly prioritizes Defense over Offense and Long Term over Short term, but not nearly to Dispaterian levels.
Should be close to immune to mental tampering if possible (aside from Mind Blank, ergo his normal values should do well too).

Again, not a primary Caster, but should ahve more than a little Mojo.

Should Rock. Hard.

Maybe I`ll name him "Wrath of Asmodeus". ^^

[kellbyb]

I'd probably go wizard/initiate of the sevenfold veil.

[Gildedragon]

Rock? Hard?
As in Hard Rock?
Bard. They have some killer charisma, and they're set on the BAB-Saves side... they can have their own villain song with some pandemonic silver riffs

[GrayDeath]

I'd probably go wizard/initiate of the sevenfold veil.

See "not full Caster" Theme. ;)


Rock? Hard?
As in Hard Rock?
Bard. They have some killer charisma, and they're set on the BAB-Saves side... they can have their own villain song with some pandemonic silver riffs


Well, Metal too. :P

Didn`t mean it like that, but why not? Sounds like an Idea. ^^

[eggynack]

As I recall, the best monster with a crazy HD count is the black ethergaunt from the fiend folio. Full wizard casting, immunity to magic, and a bunch of fancy abilities on top of that. And then you can do whatever the hell you want with the class half. Like, say, factotum 20, allowing for a classic wizard//factotum build within these constraints. I think it's vaguely interesting, cause it's kinda the reverse of what's already been mentioned, sticking an arbitrary build on a great monster rather than sticking a great build on an arbitrary monster. And it just so happens that monster does wizard better than class does. And of course class does support way better than monster does. Monsters are all the one thing in their statblock, after all, with little room for detail work. Doesn't have to be factotum either. Lotsa classes work great with wizard, and at this point, you don't even need to look up classic builds and append them to this fixed side. You can look up full on wizard//X builds, and mimic them perhaps more than perfectly.

In point of fact, ethergaunt is so good that you don't even need the gestalt. It's a full caster with enough statistical weight to do just fine even in a party of tier ones. You could probably even do fine in a gestalt party, unless they're going crazy, and you might do fine even then. You're mostly just better than a wizard, so they have to wind up even better than that if they want to compete. That means that the underlying premise of the thread, that you somehow need a gestalt side in order to make a monster competitive, happens to be false. You don't need a weird modified gestalt to make this work. You can still use one, but what you can end up with is just gonna be a standard gestalt character, rather than a normal character with a monster upgrade.

[Deadline]

Well, what you are asking for is far from "unoptimizable". It's not like you are saying "Optimize Risen Martyr!" or something like that.

Let's see, with what you've specified, maybe something like this?

Pit Fiend Bard 6/Disciple of Asmodeus 10/Sublime Chord 4

You take Bard to 6, then 4 levels of Disciple of Asmodeus, then 1 level of Sublime Chord, and then finish out Disciple of Asmodeus (advancing Sublime Chord casting) before taking your last few levels in Sublime Chord (or possibly pick up some Abjurant Champion levels).

You'll be an awesome melee threat (because Pit Fiend), a decent spellcaster threat (You'll be able to cast 8th level sorc/wiz spells for Mind Blank and 6th level Bard spells), have fantastic skills and social manipulation, and be a potent leader (Bardic music + social skills + Leadership + Fiend Summoning abilities [Racial and Class based] + Evil Authority from Disciple of Asmodeus). It's not the most powerful it could be, but it's still ridiculously potent and even manages to keep to the theme you've requested.

[GrayDeath]

Hey, that DOES sound just like what I wanted, thank you very much!

until something that fits even better comes along my Asmodean hard Rocker Pit Fiend is logged in!


Now for my Friend: he says "build me a Mosnter/Gestalt that can do as many things that regular CLasses either cannot do or cannot do well, without just making an ÜberWizard/Cleric/etc".

I am not entirely clear myself, but I THINK he just wants lots and lots of uniqueness...

[eggynack]

I just don't understand what this is. This isn't really a challenge. It's just you kinda asking for a character build. Which, sure, that's a thing done hereabouts, but it's not usually couched in these terms. The fact of the matter is, it's already been established that this build can plausibly reach the power level of an unrestricted gestalt, and do so without significant cheese, which means that you can get just about any power level you want by modifying that downward. If you just want a cool character, why are you making decisions about its nature based on your DM's arbitrary whims? Say what kinda stuff you want to do, and it can likely be done. If you want to meet some kinda challenge, then why are you presenting such a weird and easy challenge with so few parameters? You've said you want a pit fiend, so that means the monster side is kinda impossible to alter, and then you're just asking for an interesting single classed build. What's the point of that as a challenge? You might as well just ask us to make a cool character with no restrictions, and then weirdly imply that none can possibly manage it. Which, I guess could be true, if you just set your standards arbitrarily high, but it's not a meaningful challenge in either case.