Balancing Monster PC's

[Zehridamus]

Hey y'all. I'm sorta in a tight situation here, and I didn't find another post or thread on this matter, so, either due to the lack of there being a post or thread or to the far-more-likely case of I don't know how to search for things, I'ma start this thread.

Now, I have no idea how this happened (by which I mean I don't know how my DM LET this happen), but it goes something like this. I was playing a human fighter, and I had a severe case of possession which led to my character having Dissociative Identity Disorder (or something like that). They all had specific triggers that would make them come out, and I had a Neutral Evil assassin alter who really didn't like the party, or life in general. Since he only came out when I was holding a sharp weapon in my dominant hand, I was forced to fight with a noose. :smallconfused:

Now anyways, I was possessed by a demon. A glabrezu, in fact, and he had a lot of sway over my personalities. So, when I tried to fix my mind, he killed me by hanging me from my own weapon. :smalleek: I could've made another character, but somehow the roleplaying was too good :smallwink: and therein lies the problem:

My character is now a glabrezu. With 3 levels in sorcerer. And the party's current level? Well, let's just say we're still a Tier-2 party.

I know there were rules for "balancing" monstrous PC's back when I used to play 3.5, but it seems that there is no such thing for 5e, as far as my limited skills can find. Can someone help me balance this, so that I don't just kill everything being thrown at me, or the party, or the fun in general? It would be appreciated.:smallbiggrin:

[Ninja_Prawn]

Hah, that's a good story. There aren't really any rules for this; it might be time to break out the homebrew.

Of course, it's simple truth that glabrezus are very powerful monsters (even without class levels), so you'll have to figure out a way of making your character weaker so that they are on the same level as the rest of the party. I would suggest an actual demotion - I believe demons can be changed into other types of demon like how devils are promoted and demoted, so maybe yours got turned into a quasit or something?

That also comes with a built-in quest of "I want to regain my former glory!" if you need such a thing.

[Zehridamus]

You know, I honestly thought about asking our DM to demote my "character" into something of that manner, because that would make sense, at least to me. But, even more complicating, is that he owns souls, has amnesty in the party, and now has a favor from each member in the party that he can pull at any time. And we all know the nature of demonic requests...

I still don't understand how this went down, and it's my "character" :smallbiggrin:

I do believe I have to homebrew some stuff to keep this balanced, because, as it stands, my "character" is effectively Level 14. And that doesn't mix well with a party of level 5 guys, as much as it sounds like it does. I don't know if it is possible to put him on the same level as the party (not without a DM-fashioned deus ex machina), but I thought that some sort of leverage over him might be nice. Maybe some True Name type of thing?

[Flashy]

I do believe I have to homebrew some stuff to keep this balanced, because, as it stands, my "character" is effectively Level 14. And that doesn't mix well with a party of level 5 guys, as much as it sounds like it does.

Not only that, you're a character that doesn't obey any of the rules for PC scaling, or how PCs are supposed to work in general. A Glabrezau has about the same damage resistance as a high level Barbarian, the attack action of a 20th level Fighter, better telepathy than a GOO Warlock, a better version of the Eldritch Knight 17th level feature, Dispel Magic at will, always on 120' truesight, advantage on every saving throw against every kind of magic ever and access to an 8th level spell (Power Word Stun) once per day.

The problem isn't just that your character is a way too high level relative to the rest of the party, there's also the problem that in 5e monsters and PCs operate under fundamentally different sets of rules. A Glabrezau has features that other party members will never be able to access, under any circumstances. I really think that Ninja_Prawn's suggestion is fundamentally the correct one (drop down to a Quasit), but even then you're probably going to have to strip down the damage resistances, the invisibility action, and the magic resistance. Quasit are only as low as CR 1 because they have 7 hit points. If you're padding those out with sorcerer levels then you're removing the only real defensive weakness in the statblock.

[Zehridamus]

Not only that, you're a character that doesn't obey any of the rules for PC scaling, or how PCs are supposed to work in general. A Glabrezau has about the same damage resistance as a high level Barbarian, the attack action of a 20th level Fighter, better telepathy than a GOO Warlock, a better version of the Eldritch Knight 17th level feature, Dispel Magic at will, always on 120' truesight, advantage on every saving throw against every kind of magic ever and access to an 8th level spell (Power Word Stun) once per day.

Oh dear Zuggtmoy, is that sickening to look at.

I am pretty sure that the demotion thing is what I'm gonna have to talk our dear-old DM into. And I'm sure Festi is not going to like it.:smallwink: So thank you Ninja Prawn, for the idea i missed, and Flashy, for your input. I appreciate it.

Since we're here, though, would it be a feasible thing to make monsters available as PC's in 5e? And preferably not a Savage Species concept, which would not be a good thing :smallsigh:

The point that you, Flashy, brought up is very valid: Monsters and Players are on a very different level in 5e. No one should be a glabrezu, ever. But, maybe some low CR guys could make the cut, right? I don't know the precise ratio of conversion between CR and level, but I always assumed that a CR 1/4 monster would be roughly equivalent to a level 1 character. Or I could be missing something or just completely wrong.

So, if I wanted to play, say, a Dretch, or a Duodrone, or a Smoke Mephit, or even a Skeleton or Zombie, would it be a feasible thing? If so, what would be some good ground rules?

[Ninja_Prawn]

Since we're here, though, would it be a feasible thing to make monsters available as PC's in 5e? And preferably not a Savage Species concept, which would not be a good thing :smallsigh:

...If so, what would be some good ground rules?

Check out the homebrew subforum (the compendium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?481588-D-amp-D-5e-Homebrew-Compendium-2) is a useful resource, player races in posts 3 and 4); we do this stuff all the time.

As for ground rules, I'd say: 1) ignore the MM stat blocks - a PC race is a PC race. 2) familiarise yourself with the musicus scale (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ViqLSEN67mmd2Lo_OJ-H5YX0fccsfI97kFaqx7V1Dmw/edit?usp=sharing). 3) ask a DM for help/critique - player-made homebrew is often very unbalanced.

[Zehridamus]

...

I've been to Twelvetrees' thread tons of times, and didn't think of even checking there.

This is what a natural 1 on an Investigation check looks like.

As far as the Musicus scale goes, thank you! I've been looking for something like this for a while now. It'll help speed things along in the worlds I'm creating.

[Regitnui]

Honestly, I as DM would have had your character drop to NPC as soon as the glabrezu took over. Watch it, there might be DM shenanigans afoot of the sort that leave you rolling up a new character.

[Zehridamus]

That's what I would've done, but I handed my DM-ship over a few weeks ago. I don't know if I prefer shenanigans or nonsense.:smallconfused:

[Herobizkit]

Strictly speaking, the Glabrezu won and your character died.

Going off the split minds, if you only care about RP, maybe you can just talk for the Glabrezu and the DM can run the "body" of the Glabrezu as an NPC?

Or...

Maybe you become a Tiefling Dragon Sorcerer that's re-fluffed as Demon Sorcerer who, once per long rest, can rage out and become a Glabrezu?

4e had a Tiefling power called Diabolic Transformation:
You transform into a diabolic brute until the end of the encounter. While you are in this form, you gain regeneration 2, you increase fire resistance by 5 [or get 5e fire resistance], you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls, and the bonus to attack rolls granted by your Bloodhunt racial trait [you do +1 damage to enemies at half HP or less] increases to +2.

To 5e-ify this, you might have access to a Barbarian Rage ability. :)

Or...

Maybe the DM gives you Glabrezu-light, taking away any powers/abilities a character of your class wouldn't be able to access (such as the at-will Dispel Magic, the Power Word Stun, and limit your attacks to the amount a PC would nromally have [2, in this case]).

[Zehridamus]

Strictly speaking, the Glabrezu won and your character died.

4e had a Tiefling power called Diabolic Transformation:
You transform into a diabolic brute until the end of the encounter. While you are in this form, you gain regeneration 2, you increase fire resistance by 5 [or get 5e fire resistance], you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls, and the bonus to attack rolls granted by your Bloodhunt racial trait [you do +1 damage to enemies at half HP or less] increases to +2.

To 5e-ify this, you might have access to a Barbarian Rage ability. :)



Hmm. Never played much 4E, so I didn't know about this. The whole I-use-an-action-to-get-angry-but-suprise-I'm-a-crazy-powerful-demon-while-I'm-angry-so-there idea would be very amusing, if I dropped the spells. At least to me. I'm sure our DM would have an aneurysm or something.

[Herobizkit]

That, or just start taking level in barbarian lol