The Gish Behind the Throne

[Palanan]

I could use build suggestions for a mid-level gish, around tenth or eleventh at most, who's a leading general and the true power behind the imperial throne. He needs to be able to rally and motivate his troops, survive the intrigues at court, and most importantly take the fight to the enemy in person.

I'm open to most official material from 3.5 and Pathfinder, but no psionics, ToB or PoW. His race is already established as human, and I'd like suggestions for a potent build within those parameters--especially one which blends full-on martial prowess with deft social flair.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Bard. Optimize Inspire Courage with Words of Creation and Song of the Heart. If you want, you can add some PrC levels (such as Abjurant Champion) at 9-10-11, because those don't add any IC.

[flappeercraft]

I would suggest a Fighter 1/ Wizard 5/Abjurant Champion 5. But If you want to make him for the part of inspiring the troops maybe sorcerer for charisma

[Flickerdart]

One interesting approach could be a counterspeller/dispeller. Such a person would use spells like battlemagic perception to quickly identify and shut down any attempts at hostile magic at court. Abruptly stripping your enemy of his bonuses is oftentimes more reliable than boosting your own.

You can also use a bardzilla (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?154326-3-5-quot-Bardzilla-quot) build, persisting a bunch of cool bard spells on yourself. All-day glibness is just what the doctor ordered when bantering with nobles, and on the battlefield, he could put up many boosting auras.

[Gildedragon]

I'll second Bard
Maybe Prestige Bard...
Uses perform [oratory] for the music effects

Pity you can't ToB

Honestly I'd go for illusionist or enchanter probably with War Spell feat... Nothing quite like turning the enemy's forces against them.

An artificer would not be bad as a master of arms and courtier...Neither would be a warlock. Both have good Cha bases, and the power to craft some great weapons/artillery

[Darrin]

Bard. Optimize Inspire Courage with Words of Creation and Song of the Heart. If you want, you can add some PrC levels (such as Abjurant Champion) at 9-10-11, because those don't add any IC.

Thirding Bard. High Cha + buff spells makes for a powerful Diplomancer. So long as his troops can hear him (alphorn has a range of 1d10 miles), Dragonfire Inspiration can affect hundreds of troops, and it works with ranged attacks. Put a few hundred archers around him and he's an army-killer.

Fighter 1/Bard 8/Eldritch Knight 1 is all set to go into Sublime Chord 2 (finish off with Abjurant Champion or Eldritch Knight). Use Music of Creation (Eberron Campaign Setting p. 34) to swap Suggestion for Song of the Heart. With inspirational boost, every arrow is dishing out +4d6 [fire] damage (or switch to [sonic] with Dragontouched/Draconic Heritage). Words of Creation doubles that to 8d6.

If you prefer something with less singing, then a standard Sorcadin might work just as well:

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 3

Voice of the dragon (Spell Compendium, Brd/Sor/Wiz 4) gives a +10 enhancement bonus to Diplomacy rolls.

[MisterKaws]

Duskblade 1/Bard 4/Spellblade 1/Abjurant Champion 3/Eldritch Knight 1/Sublime Chord 1 is probably the best you can get, if you're counting on leveling up later, taking Sublime Chord 2, Abj. Champion 5, and the rest in Eldritch Knight. Otherwise, just swap out that Eldritch Knight level for another Abj. Champion level.

[Palanan]

Thanks for the suggestions so far, some interesting options here.

I probably should have clarified that I'd like this general to be focused on toe-to-toe fighting, either sword-and-board or a two-handed weapon. He inspires as much by example as by words.


Originally Posted by Darrin
If you prefer something with less singing….

And yes, I would prefer a little less singing. And a little more hit points and BAB.

I don't have much experience with gishes, but Abjurant Champion looks pretty decent on its own. Given that I'm open to Pathfinder material, is a Magus/Abjurant Champion worth considering?

[Gildedragon]

Note that the singing needn't be singing. Oratory means it can be rousing speeches, powerful orders...
Combine it with a couple weapon enhancements that sustain the music for some rounds

As to better BAB bard's 3/4 isn't that bad; combine with finesse weapons, or spells that let you add Cha to hit and you're pretty solid in hitting folk.

One of the main draws of Bard for your concept is your emphasis on out-of-combat utility: ie strong social skills.
Most full BAB classes are lacking in that, as are most casters. Bard trades full martial or arcane prowess for strong social/skill ability, and magic that can boost their martial and skill sides

[Troacctid]

You could try a skald instead of a bard. It's more violent.

Personally, I'm a big fan of Ordained Champion.

[Gruftzwerg]

see my signature

go for a monk 2 / warlock 3 / enlightened fist X

the build gets fly at lvl 9 with a flyspeed of 70ft. (30 base + 2x20 due to doubledip monk speed buff, see build for more info).

- you can dive for double dmg (@lvl 11 that would be 4d10+8d6+ 2xStr-mod).
- 2 attacks on full attack with your max BAB (claws each for 2d10+4d6+Str-mod)

ranged defense:
Deflect Arrows & Entropic Shield for a bit ranged defense.

give him some defensive (magic) items to boost his survivability and you should have a nice bad guy encounter. and I can't imagine a better way to take the fight to the enemy than diving.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Guigarci
As to better BAB bard's 3/4 isn't that bad; combine with finesse weapons, or spells that let you add Cha to hit and you're pretty solid in hitting folk.

True, but the hit points aren't really there, and this guy is definitely not a finesse fighter. He doesn't weasel; he whales. :smalltongue:

Would a couple levels of Suel Arcanamach be useful? The spellcasting is extremely limited, but dispelling strike could be handy on the battlefield.

[Psyren]

+As an alternative to the Bard suggestions, I'd go with an Alchemist, along with Bruising Intellect and Student of Philosophy to make him a capable face. He'd also be smart enough to stay behind the throne, and use the dummy sitting in it as a patsy for any of his schemes that go south.

Either that or an Empiricist Investigator.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
As an alternative to the Bard suggestions, I'd go with an Alchemist, along with Bruising Intellect and Student of Philosophy to make him a capable face.

I appreciate the suggestion, but alchemy isn't quite the direction I was thinking. Not swordy enough. :smalltongue:

Would it be feasible to combine a little magus with some of the other options mentioned here? In 3.5 the duskblade is often mentioned as a good starter for a gish, and the magus seems like a much-improved duskblade.

[Gildedragon]

True, but the hit points aren't really there, and this guy is definitely not a finesse fighter. He doesn't weasel; he whales. :smalltongue:

Would a couple levels of Suel Arcanamach be useful? The spellcasting is extremely limited, but dispelling strike could be handy on the battlefield.

snowflake wardance then... though it is not v good with sword and board
but it is very good with hitting; and if you can get magical protection, well the shield is less useful

Factotum could be handy, but probably not magical enough; ditto for Binder

Actually Binder into KoSS is a pretty good melee force, and if you use your vestiges wisely, you can be quite the manipulator.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Suel Arcanamach looks cool, but in the end, it doesn't do that much. With your 11th-level limit, you're getting 5 levels of casting at best, which gets you third-level spells - worse than a bard or sorcadin, let alone a full cleric. You also get 3/4 base attack, 4 skill points/level without important social skills (no Diplomacy, no Intimidate, no Sense Motive) and a d8 hit die, so I'm not sure why you'd take it over anything else. Dispelling Strike gets you greater dispel magic, which is normally a 6th-level spell, but it's only a +1 improvement over regular dispel magic, again because you are limited to 5 levels.

If you want more antimagic ability: the Inquisition domain gets you +4 on dispel checks, so that may be an idea. Cleric 6/Ordained Champion 5 with Divine Defiance and a dispelling cord dispels at +15 with a regular dispel magic, and can also throw quickened flame strikes at CL 11. If your deity does not grant the Inquisition domain, there is the Church Inquisitor PrC, which grants it as bonus domain. It can be entered early, but you have to be LG or LN. If you're the DM, you can easily approve an evil variant, if appropriate.

[Psyren]

I appreciate the suggestion, but alchemy isn't quite the direction I was thinking. Not swordy enough. :smalltongue:

How about Investigator? Studied Combat/Strike can make you pretty savvy with a blade, and no pesky bombs.



Would it be feasible to combine a little magus with some of the other options mentioned here? In 3.5 the duskblade is often mentioned as a good starter for a gish, and the magus seems like a much-improved duskblade.

Yeah but I wouldn't recommend it. You can get Int to various things but they're a bit weak on the skills front.

There's that one rogue archetype that gets spellcasting as an alternative too, or full-blown Arcane Trickster.

[WhamBamSam]

Human Paragon 1/Sha'ir 2/Human Paragon +1/Ordained Champ 3/Human Paragon +1/Spellsword 1/Sha'ir +2
1. Human Paragon 1 Fell Weaken, Fell Drain
2. Sha'ir 1
3. Sha'ir 2 - Weapon Focus (War Deity's Favored Slashing Weapon)
4. Human Paragon 2 - Southern Magician
5. Ordained Champion 1
6. Ordained Champion 2 - Arcane Thesis (Whirling Blade)
7. Ordained Champion 3
8. Human Paragon 3
9. Spellsword 1 - Quick Draw or Improved Feint*
10. Sha'ir 3
11. Sha'ir 4

If you're wondering about Ordained Champ qualification/advancement, Sha'irs can cast some divine spells and are hence a divine spellcasting class, so advancing via Ordained Champion isn't an issue. They just need Southern Magician to meet the prerequisite of being able to cast Magic Weapon as a divine spell so that they can get in in the first place.

You end up with solid social skills, and gishing with style (which, let's be real, is the most important part of any gish), both of which are helped along by Cha SADness. Adaptive Learning makes Iaijutsu Focus a class skill forever, so drop a Fell Drain Blade of Blood on your sword with your swift action, Channel a spell into it with Ordained Champion with your move action, draw it as a free action with either Quick Draw or a Least Crystal of Return, then let it fly with a Fell Drain Fell Weaken Whirling Blade with your standard. Have a few extra swords sheathed and the right spells/things (Insightful Feint+Improved Feint+Group Fake Out, Distract Assailant) to keep your enemies flat-footed, and you'll be able to keep flinging Channeled Spells, negative levels, and iaijutsu damage throughout combat. It's also completely Cha SAD, which is sorta cool. If you don't mind losing 5th level spells and a point of BAB, you can also jam a level of Marshal in there to jack up social skills and Iaijutsu Focus with Motivate Charisma. It could also allow you to delay the Human Paragon 2 bonus feat to 5th, which would mean that you might be able to get around needing Southern Magician and Weapon Focus by taking Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment: War) using the standard ability to nab Weapon Focus via the domain granted power, and the higher order ability** to meet the casting requirement. This would then free up a feat either to get both Improved Feint and Quick Draw into the build or for something else to be squeezed in.

*With time to prebuff, you can have both via Heroics.
**It's not altogether clear that the small amount of spellcasting you get from said higher order ability is divine, but it would make sense for it to be. This would constitute some DM fiat on your part though.