I'm thinking of Playing/Building a Knight

[AnimeTheCat]

Hi all, I'm thinking of building or playing a knight. Here's what I've got so far:
Person Man's Knight Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?109429-3-5-Person-Man-s-Knight-Handbook)
And that's about it. Great starting point, but its focused on damage dealing, and there's nothing wrong with that.

I'm planning on playing either a human or a strong heart Halfling because I can feel it in my tingling fingertips that this is going to be feat intensive. Also, assume Knight 1-20, unless there is a PrC out there that improves upon the knight abilities or has knight abilities as prerequisites, otherwise I'm not interested.

1) A knight that doesn't focus on damage, but pulling the fight to him and controlling the battlefield.
- There is a new guy in the group and he wants to play a direct damage wizard/sorcerer so I want to build a compliment to him and help him enjoy his first time playing.
2) A way to maximize my test of mettle DC and enhance the other class abilities of the knight either by means of feats, stat placement, or magic items (like a set or something)
3) Interesting ways to use the various class abilities.

1) "Play some class other than knight... it sucks."
2) "Play a spiked chain trip build because that's all knights are good for"
3) I'm not looking for an optimized build that does what the Knight does, I'm looking for the class "Knight" optimized for what it is build to do. I don't really care if something does it better, I want this class.

1) Knights have mounted combat given to them, so I don't particularly want to focus on that. Spirited charge may be a thing, but not likely.
2) Shield Specialization + Shield Ward to synergize with the bonus that the class grants to knights using a shield.
3) Looking at possibly delving in to the Combat focus + Combat Vigor + Combat Stability tree in Person Man's guide. Fast Healing 2 isn't the bees knees, but it's fast healing on a non-spell casting character. I'll bite for now.
4) Moderate Strength (12), Good Constitution (16 or so), No higher than 12-13 Dexterity (Unless there's a good reason. I don't feel that AoOs are going to be a big part of the build, but I don't know the full build yet), Decent Int (12-ish?) possibly higher so I can keep up with the intimidate, No lower than 13 Wisdom (for the Combat Focus line), And Good Charisma (16) because Test of Mettle.
- Because I'm not focusing on damage, I feel comfortable with a low strength. My goal is not to kill the enemy, but screw up the enemy's plan.
5) Possibly, instead of going the line in #3, go Combat Reflexes, Hold the Line, and evasive reflexes to foil charges and keep myself maneuvered between the squishy characters and the enemy.

Ok, so with all that being said, what do you guys think? I'm not trying to be mean or rude when I say that I don't want other class suggestions or a single specific build reccomendation, but I would be quite agitated if someone suggested it with it being in the OP, so please keep that in mind. Other than those two key things, I'm open to pretty much any recommendation.

[DarkOne-Rob]

I don't have much to suggest, but I would encourage you to play a human and get a good reach weapon (for when you are not mounted). As a melee-combatant controlling combat (with or without Test of Mettle) is largely going to require reach, AoOs, and often trips. There are several decent polearms that could work for this. Unfortunately that means that you won't be using a shield much.

The only alternative that I can see would be trying to manage some two-weapon fighting with a spiked shield. This is very feat intensive and often not particularly effective (to-hit penalties abound), but it could allow you to make use of a sword-and-board style of combat...The two-handed reach weapon will probably be better all around, though.

You have a pretty high Charisma planned, but as a Knight you cannot feint in combat. You mention intimidating in your post, but using a standard action to intimidate (instead of attacking them) is often counterproductive. How were you planning to make all this work?

[AnimeTheCat]

I don't have much to suggest, but I would encourage you to play a human and get a good reach weapon (for when you are not mounted). As a melee-combatant controlling combat (with or without Test of Mettle) is largely going to require reach, AoOs, and often trips. There are several decent polearms that could work for this. Unfortunately that means that you won't be using a shield much.

The only alternative that I can see would be trying to manage some two-weapon fighting with a spiked shield. This is very feat intensive and often not particularly effective (to-hit penalties abound), but it could allow you to make use of a sword-and-board style of combat...The two-handed reach weapon will probably be better all around, though.

You have a pretty high Charisma planned, but as a Knight you cannot feint in combat. You mention intimidating in your post, but using a standard action to intimidate (instead of attacking them) is often counterproductive. How were you planning to make all this work?

Basically the idea is to force enemies to attack me if they are going to attack thereby removing that threat from the wizard i'm trying to protect. I don't care if i'm using my standard actions to demoralize because my aim isn't to kill anything, it's to make myself as difficult to kill as possible while bringing the fight to me. Demoralizing tougher opponents can both increase my survivability and potentially remove the enemy from the fight by stacking fear effects. Additionally if an enemy succeeds in their save vs Test of mettle I can then use my next turn to demoralize that foe and reduce the likelihood of them succeeding in hitting the wizard. More attacks/damage/reach is not the aim of this build. Survivability, and battlefield status effects are the aim. Also, a knight may not strike an opponent who is flat footed, that does not mean I can't feint in combat. Granted, i'm the only one who benefits from it, but I can still do it. I'm planning on making all this work by making something unconventional. Melee characters don't have to be beat sticks, they can use their actions to aid those that can deal greater damage and preserve their resources by taking care of battlefield control, just in a different way. You don't need trips or AoOs to do that and that is the aim here, to do something different, not just build the same thing over and over again.

All of the above is why in the OP I said things like "synergizes well with the Knights in class shield bonus" and "i'm looking for something that builds on the Knights class abilities". I don't want to force something that doesn't fit on to the Knights class chassis. Intimidating/demoralizing does fit.

[DarkOne-Rob]

I understand your goals, I am just not sure they can be done effectively. There really isn't anything like agro or taunts in D&D 3.5 - it isn't an MMORPG like WoW. If your DM wants the enemies to attack the squishy wizard and not you, they can do that (unless you forcibly prevent it somehow). Effectively hindering the enemy is often a matter of status effects (of which you have only those combat maneuvers like tripping, disarming, and grappling to choose from as a mundane PC).

Unfortunately there just isn't much advice I can provide other than what I have said so far. Stop the enemy from attacking the wizard at all if you can, but if you think that giving them additional AC (via sharing your shield bonus or some other effect) is going to work, the math doesn't support it. Effective Wizards usually have low ACs, and adding two or three or four to that won't make them significantly harder to hit past level 3 or so. Ranged enemies may use spells of their own (against which you are not effective unless you can disrupt their casting somehow, usually with damage) or will have high BAB and/or feats like a Precise Shot to shoot into melee without penalties. You just cannot get the bonuses you provide to be statistically effective.

I apologize if this is unhelpful, but you are asking to do something that people have tried to do for years. When they have tried it they have found some things work (high damage to force enemies to deal with you, tripping, AoOs, etc...) and some things don't (trying to defend your allies well enough that they can trivially win the encounter for you). That doesn't mean you cannot role-play a protector, nor that you cannot use Aid Another judiciously when useful, but it does mean certain builds won't help your party win a fight as well as simply killing the enemy would have...

Good luck, and if you want me to show you some other threads where this is discussed or talk it over more, send me a PM.

[daremetoidareyo]

You, my friend, should take a look at these builds, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?491781-Unarmed-Skillmonkey-Challenge&p=20904687#post20904687) and we can start to build you a knight who will control the battlefield. How do you feel about 4 levels of knight? Cuz you don't need any more than that. We should discuss whether or not we want to include the luck feats aspect of those builds.

And perhaps pick up broken one's sacrifice instead. And if you dump con, on 32 point buy, you can lift up your charisma all the way to 13. And then we can decide if we really want to go into vow of poverty to get what we need as far as AC is concerned to pull of having an HP penalty. And while we are at it, we should ask how a person under the aura of a vow of nonviolence or vow of peace reacts to the knight who additionally hits them with a test of mettle?

And the question we really need answered is how do we grant up to a +5 bonus to intelligence for our enemies? Cuz then we can test of mettle animals and maybe vermin (mark of vermin YO!) and plants that we can speak to (thanks magic and feats!)

duskblade & fox's cunning on their spell list (precocious apprentice) + wand of fox's cunning in wandchamber?

Oh yeah... and did you think about sparrow hengeyokai with some ability to talk while in tiny bird firm 100' directly above the enemy; maybe a dip into warshaper or one of those transformy type classes...or perhaps a detour through *sigh* swanmay + speaking wildshape

[Pluto!]

If you're in touch range with a creature with crocodile-level intelligence, you have Bulwark of Defense and you're three feet tall, do you really need to test its mettle?

[daremetoidareyo]

If you're in touch range with a creature with crocodile-level intelligence, you have Bulwark of Defense and you're three feet tall, do you really need to test its mettle?

It might attack the caster!


or perhaps a detour through *sigh* swanmay + speaking wildshape

You're gonna be fine against ranged attacks, and the difficult terrain from your 3rd level ability will mess with the flyers so you need to focus on spells coming at you.
Maybe that anti magic karsite thing from ToM as a base race and bard 1 or 2/knight 4/swanmay?

[LTwerewolf]

Have you considered a crusader dip to get you access to a few interesting defensive maneuvers?

[Troacctid]

1) A knight that doesn't focus on damage, but pulling the fight to him and controlling the battlefield.
- There is a new guy in the group and he wants to play a direct damage wizard/sorcerer so I want to build a compliment to him and help him enjoy his first time playing.
Well, let's go through the protection-related abilities at your disposal.

Test of Mettle: Mostly ineffective, since even in the best-case scenario, where none of the enemies are immune and all of them fail the fairly low save DC, it's going to last one round before the sorcerer you're supposed to be protecting lobs a fireball at them and breaks the effect. The main upside is that it's a swift action and it hits everyone at once, which means you can fire it off every combat and if it doesn't work, oh well, it was only a swift action.
Bulwark of Defense: This is secretly an offensive ability, since all it actually does is give you extra opportunity attacks by preventing 5-foot steps. It's actually great if you have more reach than the enemy who's trying to attack you, since it basically means they can never melee you ever, but optimizing it does require you to have a high Strength, or your opportunity attacks won't have any teeth and there won't be much point. It does admittedly work well with tripping and/or Stand Still...both of which also require high Strength.
Vigilant Defender: This is a very nice ability against tumbling enemies and a complete blank against everything else. Very few monsters use Tumble, so it will do nothing in the vast majority of encounters.
Shield Ally: Unlike the paladin's Shield Other, this ability only works if you are adjacent to the ally you're trying to protect, which is kind of a problem if you're intending to be on the front line with them in the back line. On the other hand, while it is somewhat ineffective at protecting your squishy wizard friend, it is highly effective at protecting your mount, who presumably you do want adjacent to you.
Improved Shield Ally: After 14 levels, you can now block non-physical attacks, but only once per round, and it's still worse than what the paladin was doing when she was half your level.

So, basically, I would strongly recommend that you build more around Bulwark of Defense than Test of Mettle. It has a better reward when it works, and a more painful downside when it fails. Putting your eggs in the Test of Mettle basket is a recipe for disappointment.


2) "Play a spiked chain trip build because that's all knights are good for"
Spiked chains are a waste of a feat. Guisarmes are the way to go. Or, if you're opposed to tripping (even though it's probably the most effective way to accomplish your goals), then some other reach weapon—might I suggest a lance? It's like the only reach weapon that can be used while holding a shield, at least as long as you're mounted, which I'm assuming you will be.


3) I'm not looking for an optimized build that does what the Knight does, I'm looking for the class "Knight" optimized for what it is build to do. I don't really care if something does it better, I want this class.

1) Knights have mounted combat given to them, so I don't particularly want to focus on that. Spirited charge may be a thing, but not likely.
Wait, you want to focus on the iconic Knight abilities, but you don't want to be mounted? Or am I reading you wrong? Because if you want to be a real Knight's Knight, you gotta be mounted. It's like the definition of a knight.

Here's my recommendations.

Reach. You need as big a threatened area as possible in order to control the battlefield effectively.
Combat Reflexes. There is no getting around this—it's legitimately the best way to exercise control over the battlefield.
Intimidate. Max your ranks in it. Take the Imperious Command feat and get yourself a set of Fearsome Armor (both from Drow of the Underdark). Take the Never Outnumbered skill trick. Pick up magic items that boost the skill. This is the other best way to control the battlefield, and if you really want to be Charisma-focused, this is how. Also, don't forget about the Duel of Wills option, since it's pretty much free.
Wild Cohort feat. This gives you a good mount. You will be mounted. Your class features all point to it, it's iconic, it allows you to control a larger area, and it frees up your move actions for Intimidate. It also greatly improves your mobility in heavy armor—even more so if you have a flying mount. Alternately, take levels in a prestige class that gives you a mount; I am personally a fan of Beloved of Valarian, since you get one of the prerequisites as a bonus feat and the class coincidentally also has great abilities for protecting your allies. There are other options as well.
Steadfast Boots. MIC, only 1400 gp. Your weapon is always considered to be set against a charge. This isn't actually important, I just wanted to make sure you knew about it because it's just an efficient item that works well with what you're trying to do.

[AnimeTheCat]

I understand your goals, I am just not sure they can be done effectively. There really isn't anything like agro or taunts in D&D 3.5 - it isn't an MMORPG like WoW. If your DM wants the enemies to attack the squishy wizard and not you, they can do that (unless you forcibly prevent it somehow). Effectively hindering the enemy is often a matter of status effects (of which you have only those combat maneuvers like tripping, disarming, and grappling to choose from as a mundane PC).

So... this is more so wrong than not helpful... have you read test of mettle? Because that's aggro... just like a mmorpg... hence finding ways to maximize that.



You, my friend, should take a look at these builds, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?491781-Unarmed-Skillmonkey-Challenge&p=20904687#post20904687) and we can start to build you a knight who will control the battlefield. How do you feel about 4 levels of knight? Cuz you don't need any more than that. We should discuss whether or not we want to include the luck feats aspect of those builds.

And perhaps pick up broken one's sacrifice instead. And if you dump con, on 32 point buy, you can lift up your charisma all the way to 13. And then we can decide if we really want to go into vow of poverty to get what we need as far as AC is concerned to pull of having an HP penalty. And while we are at it, we should ask how a person under the aura of a vow of nonviolence or vow of peace reacts to the knight who additionally hits them with a test of mettle?

And the question we really need answered is how do we grant up to a +5 bonus to intelligence for our enemies? Cuz then we can test of mettle animals and maybe vermin (mark of vermin YO!) and plants that we can speak to (thanks magic and feats!)

duskblade & fox's cunning on their spell list (precocious apprentice) + wand of fox's cunning in wandchamber?

Oh yeah... and did you think about sparrow hengeyokai with some ability to talk while in tiny bird firm 100' directly above the enemy; maybe a dip into warshaper or one of those transformy type classes...or perhaps a detour through *sigh* swanmay + speaking wildshape

Please refer to the OP where I said assume knight 1-20... this is optimizing the knight class, not the idea/concept of a knight. Again, please... see the OP.


Have you considered a crusader dip to get you access to a few interesting defensive maneuvers?

Please, see the OP...

@Troacctid, I wanna quote your whole post, but this one is already long. I appreciate what you had to offer. I think that trying to find a way to build around bulwark of defense would be good, but it takes away from the idea of forcing the fight on to me. Test of mettle lasts for 5 +charisma mod rounds so it's a swift action for a DC 16 (if charisma is an 18 by level 4) will save (which most of the enemies we will be fighting will have low will saves. I know the DM) or they're attacking me for 9 rounds. That is plenty of time for the wizard to ray and the ranger to rapid shot one target at a time to -10 and back. If they do succeed, I now get to move and demoralize that target, thereby forcing that target to eat an AoO or fight me. You partially read me right on the mounted combat bit, the dm likes lots of dungeons, buildings, and forests where mounted combat isn't the greatest. So I want to build the character for the aspects that don't revolve around d mounted combat and then use the built in class features to serve me when I need them. That will rarely happen so i'm not particularly concerned with building that way. Also, as far as mobility is concerned, knight class abilities have that covered too, they give you armor mastery which takes away your speed penalties. Hello 30 ft movement in heavy armor (yes I know 9th level... direct damage wizard... he literally has no other spells... this is not a high op game). Additionally, if I optimize for test of mettle, I also optimize for daunting challenge which is a swift action 100 ft aoe demoralize (granted with a lower DC and effecting Character level -2 cr creatures) which causes opponents to be shaken which I can use to stack my real demoralize on to make them frightened.

Guys, I know this idea is unconventional, but there are more than one way to play the game so please help me focus of bolstering the in class knight abilities, finding synergies with skills, skill tricks, feats, and things like that. Not class dips, different classes entirely, or anything like that. If all you have to say is do something else, please don't say anything... if you have something constructive to say you're more than welcome.

[Twurps]

I like your idea. I'm struggling with a way to boost your effectiveness (DC) of 'test of mettle' though. Other than the obvious: pump CHA. Depending on the campaign/DM it might not need to much boosting if you go Knight 20 as you say. (Though in a monster heavy campaign, Int5 isn't going to be common, and in any other: will saves are going to be higher). Putting that aside:

Feats:
Allied defense(Shining South): Lets you grant AC to nearby allied.
Shield ward (PHII, has prereqs) or Parrying shield (LoM, no prereq's, slightly less effective) Boosts your touch AC.

Stance: (through feats if needs be)
Iron guard glare: Any enemy you threaten, takes a -4 penalty on attacking your ALLIES. I really like this one, as it both protects your allies, and is incentive to attack you. Very fitting I would think.

Template:
Mineral warrior(Underdark?): Natural armor and DR. 'nuff said.

[Chronikoce]

There is nothing wrong with playing knight as long as you're not also in a high op group. One of my absolutely favorite characters to play was a gnome knight that went sword and board. I think that might be the furthest from optimization you could get but the rest of the group wasn't high op so it was fun.

As for actually building the knight. A reach weapon with trip is helpful for battlefield control. As for supplementing the knight class, if ToB is on the table you could add a crusader level or 2 after a few levels of knight, grab a stance and manuevers that catches your eye and go back to knight.

You could also ask your DM if the shield bonus actually requires you to be wearing a shield (the wording leads to a debate of weather you can increase a non-existent bonus when shield isn't equipped).

[Pugwampy]

There is a knight class in PF tome of secrets .

[AnimeTheCat]

There is nothing wrong with playing knight as long as you're not also in a high op group. One of my absolutely favorite characters to play was a gnome knight that went sword and board. I think that might the furthest from optimization you could get but the rest of the group wasn't high op so it was fun.

So, I would like to point out that if you're not looking to do damage, small size is pretty nice for a tank-style character. Always having a +1 bonus to AC from size can come in handy when trying to squeeze every last drop of AC you can. Then with feats like stand still, size doesn't matter, they just stop. Now, if you're a small creature trying to cause a lot of damage you'll need to look somewhere else for damage that isn't size dependent.

As for ToB, I think I would rather eat the feats and stay Knight so as to not lose DC on the various Knight's Challenges. If I dip out of knight that's only a maximum +9 bonus to my DC at 20th level for a one level dip. I don't want to trade a level for that.

Fortunately the DM doesn't like using monsters too much because the worlds he builds are political in nature and tend to have more brigand/bandits along the roads and more intelligent humanoids as opposition which caters well to Test of Mettle. Also, for some charop information, we have a wizard that does nothing but sling damage spells, a cleric that has taken vow of peace, and a ranger that is using a shortbow because he likes the idea of it better. We're just doing this to have fun ultimately so the OP is pretty low in this game.


I like your idea. I'm struggling with a way to boost your effectiveness (DC) of 'test of mettle' though. Other than the obvious: pump CHA. Depending on the campaign/DM it might not need to much boosting if you go Knight 20 as you say.

Yeah, that's what I'm trying to poll the audience to get. I think that maybe Ability Specialization maybe from MM might work if that's considered a special attack so the DC may get raised by 2 by taking that feat. (Better if you can put it on just the Knight's Challenge ability).

[Chronikoce]

So, I would like to point out that if you're not looking to do damage, small size is pretty nice for a tank-style character. Always having a +1 bonus to AC from size can come in handy when trying to squeeze every last drop of AC you can. Then with feats like stand still, size doesn't matter, they just stop. Now, if you're a small creature trying to cause a lot of damage you'll need to look somewhere else for damage that isn't size dependent.

...
Fortunately the DM doesn't like using monsters too much because the worlds he builds are political in nature and tend to have more brigand/bandits along the roads and more intelligent humanoids as opposition which caters well to Test of Mettle. Also, for some charop information, we have a wizard that does nothing but sling damage spells, a cleric that has taken vow of peace, and a ranger that is using a shortbow because he likes the idea of it better. We're just doing this to have fun ultimately so the OP is pretty low in this game.



Sounds like a good match. My knight was in a primarily political campaign and faced only humanoids as well. It worked excellently and being a gnome was for the AC and con because I wanted him to be very sturdy.

I'd probably swap in the halfling that gives a feat (strongheart?) though if that's on the table.

[daremetoidareyo]

Please refer to the OP where I said assume knight 1-20... this is optimizing the knight class, not the idea/concept of a knight. Again, please... see the OP.

Throw away the baby with the bath water then. Here, I'll sum up to compensate for the flippancy. Deceptive dodge, elusive target, gnome tunnel acrobatics, combat panache. Find a way to get the prerequisite feats and skills without filling up your feat slots. And then test of mettle the baddies it can work on while diverting all of the blows towards their allies.

Being a member of the broken ones doesn't mandate monk class levels, so you can take broken one sacrifice to jump on the grenade.

[AnimeTheCat]

Sounds like a good match. My knight was in a primarily political campaign and faced only humanoids as well. It worked excellently and being a gnome was for the AC and con because I wanted him to be very sturdy.

I'd probably swap in the halfling that gives a feat (strongheart?) though if that's on the table.

I was thinking that as well. Strongheart Halfling would work well, granting Shield Specialization (Heavy) and Shield Ward at first level and If I start with Scale Mail I can get a 19 AC at level 1 (10+4 *scale mail + 3 *Heavy Steel/wooden shield +1 *Small Size + 1 *dexterity Modifier) a 15 (Because Shield Ward) Touch AC and 18 Flat Footed. That's pretty darn good for level 1. Human (or any other medium creature) would still be 18/14/17 which isn't too bad either. Then as time goes on and I can get full plate/enchanted shields that goes up pretty quickly pretty fast. The only reason I would avoid a small creature is that you get a -4 penalty when trying to demoralize for each size category you are smaller than the enemy you're trying to demoralize, so that's unfortunate. Playing as a human would reduce my AC slightly but would improve my demoralization effectiveness quite a bit for the enemies we would most commonly face.

[Aetis]

One of my players actually played a pure knight in my last campaign and he was looking for same things you were looking for, OP.

He used a shield and a sword playstyle, took up feats in the shield specialization feat tree, and did his best to block incoming enemy charges.

Against dumb foes (like animals, mindless undead, etc) he did ok by holding down a flank with his high AC against bunch of monsters long enough for his wizard to finish them off.

Against intelligent foes, he found that test of mettle wasn't reliable/did nothing as they just included his wizard in the AoE anyway.

He wasn't using a reach weapon, and his damage output was next to none. Therefore, bulwark of defense didn't matter. Enemies simply walked around him, provoking AoOs and ignoring him, and went straight for his wizard.

Only thing he could do in those fights was to stand next to his wizard and use Shield Ally, which actually saved the wizard few times, believe it or not.

I would recommend pump Con, dump all your feats into armor/shield feats, and stand next to your mage while yelling "Shield Ally!". You can try and optimize test of mettle, but in practice, it didn't really do anything.

[Chronikoce]

If you go with human you could wield a small sized reach weapon one handed with a - 2 attack penalty. This would allow you to maintain the shield effects while still being able to use reach for tripping and such.

[OldTrees1]

Troacctid did a great post. I hope to expand beyond it.

You want a Knight 20 that draws threats & otherwise defends their allies. Your signature ability is Test of Mettle, so we should look at its limits so we know what gaps need to be covered.

Prereqs to be affected
Any target of this ability must have a language of some sort and an Intelligence score of 5 or higher.
You must have line of sight and line of effect to the targets of this ability.
a CR greater than or equal to your character level minus 2


The 1st prereq is out of your control. However you might be able to outwit such foes.
You do have some slight control over the 2nd prereq. Invest in equipment to protect your Line of Sight (darkvision & later true sight).
You have no control over the 3rd prereq and it is most concerning immunity. Think about your DM's encounter structure, would groups of enemies tend to be immune? Personally when I DM my encounters are not designed for this strict a limit in mind (so I relax this prerequisite).

Extend of the effect

Creatures that fail this save are forced to attack you with their ranged or melee attacks in preference over other available targets. If a foe attacks by casting a spell or using a supernatural ability, he must target you with the attack or include you in the effect's area.
An opponent compelled to act in this manner is not thrown into a mindless rage and does not have to move to attack you in melee if doing so would provoke attacks of opportunity against him. In such a case, he can use ranged attacks against you or attack any opponents he threatens as normal.
If anyone other than you attacks the target, the effect of the test of mettle ends for that specific target.


The first effect is what your ability is all about "If they are to attack, they must include me". You should consider that AoEs can still hit your allies if you are bunched up.
The second is an exception to the first. If moving to attack you in melee would provoke an AoO (such as from your reach), then they are free to attack someone else even if they never intended to attack with a melee weapon. This exception is excessively broad (since it means test of mettle only affects melee attacks). Do ask your DM for how they would interpret/houserule/fix this. Personally I just remove it, the opponents are already not obligated to attack so additional exceptions are unneeded.
The third is a break clause that you want to be wary of.

Once your DM decides how to rule, then you know the gaps you need to cover. Since I use both of those buffs I mentioned above, the main gap knights would want to cover is what to do to the opponents that pass the save (Cower 2 of them with 2 Imperious Commands per turn is a nice solution).

[Flickerdart]

You may be able to get some mileage out of the Dutiful Guardian feat, which allows you to use an immediate action to swap places with one ally within 10 feet who is the target of an attack. This will give you some measure of control over creatures that escaped the lure of your Test of Mettle - they suddenly find themselves face to face with a tin can instead of their desired target, and once the wizard runs away, they will find it difficult to pursue because the area you threaten is difficult terrain!

[Sian]

A dip in either Devoted Defender (Sword and Fist), or Maquar Crusader (Forgotten Realms: Shining South) give you a much more reliable tanking mechanic (going *yoink* on attacks targeting a select ally)

If you aren't disinclined towards dips Ardent have Guardian and Pain&Suffering Mantles both of which work nicely in a tank build as well. (to a lesser extend, Justice and Consumption could help as well)

That said, Knight aren't a terrible tanking class (in as so far that there is any non-crap tanking classes), but 1. Crusader is better, and 2. aggressively declining to look into selective dips, makes it much less competent.

[AnimeTheCat]

Troacctid did a great post. I hope to expand beyond it.

You want a Knight 20 that draws threats & otherwise defends their allies. Your signature ability is Test of Mettle, so we should look at its limits so we know what gaps need to be covered.

Prereqs to be affected
Any target of this ability must have a language of some sort and an Intelligence score of 5 or higher.
You must have line of sight and line of effect to the targets of this ability.
a CR greater than or equal to your character level minus 2


The 1st prereq is out of your control. However you might be able to outwit such foes.
You do have some slight control over the 2nd prereq. Invest in equipment to protect your Line of Sight (darkvision & later true sight).
You have no control over the 3rd prereq and it is most concerning immunity. Think about your DM's encounter structure, would groups of enemies tend to be immune? Personally when I DM my encounters are not designed for this strict a limit in mind (so I relax this prerequisite).

Good call on the darkvision/truevision. I hadn't thought about that to be honest, so great catch. Typically the DM will have about 6-8 creatures with a CR about 2 lower than our ECL in an encounter, and if he does something different then it's typically fewer stronger creatures with very weak opponents (Cr 1, human warrior style) which wouldn't be effected anyway. Those are easy targets for AOE spells early in combat. There is not strict limit, but I kind of taught this guy how to DM and so I have a fair grasp on how he thinks when he builds an encounter. I believe he is going to house rule that he will use hit die instead of CR for the knight's challenge abilities.


Extend of the effect

Creatures that fail this save are forced to attack you with their ranged or melee attacks in preference over other available targets. If a foe attacks by casting a spell or using a supernatural ability, he must target you with the attack or include you in the effect's area.
An opponent compelled to act in this manner is not thrown into a mindless rage and does not have to move to attack you in melee if doing so would provoke attacks of opportunity against him. In such a case, he can use ranged attacks against you or attack any opponents he threatens as normal.
If anyone other than you attacks the target, the effect of the test of mettle ends for that specific target.


The first effect is what your ability is all about "If they are to attack, they must include me". You should consider that AoEs can still hit your allies if you are bunched up.
The second is an exception to the first. If moving to attack you in melee would provoke an AoO (such as from your reach), then they are free to attack someone else even if they never intended to attack with a melee weapon. This exception is excessively broad (since it means test of mettle only affects melee attacks). Do ask your DM for how they would interpret/houserule/fix this. Personally I just remove it, the opponents are already not obligated to attack so additional exceptions are unneeded.
The third is a break clause that you want to be wary of.

Once your DM decides how to rule, then you know the gaps you need to cover. Since I use both of those buffs I mentioned above, the main gap knights would want to cover is what to do to the opponents that pass the save (Cower 2 of them with 2 Imperious Commands per turn is a nice solution).

This is where the wizard and I have been planning and working as a team through the build process. He will nearly always go before me in combat (High dex, improved initiative, gray elf... he did a good job on that part) which means if there are very weak (low HD foes) he will usually lead with a strong AOE spell to handle them and then I will start about 5-10 feet in front of him, limiting the chances of charges coming his way. When it's my turn I swift action test of mettle, get my validation of who has "accepted" the challenge (failed the save) and then move and demoralize, thus activating bulwark of defense. With a slight change to the build stats, I'll have a strength of 13, 14 at most, so that I can grab Stand Still, thereby ideally plugging a hole that enemies won't be afraid of me and my attacks of opportunity.

[Flickerdart]

Be careful about having such a rigid plan. Knights may be Lawful, but there is no reason they cannot be adaptable! You will probably want to come up with some way to handle enemies that are very far away, so that you cannot move close enough to them. How will you protect the wizard from archers? What about a pincer attack, where some enemies are behind you (or above/below you)? What is your strategy against a minion-master, who directs his low-INT pawns to run around you and eat the caster?

You don't necessarily have to have an answer to each of these right now, but it's something to keep in mind so you are never caught with your pants down. Something as simple as buying an item of benign transposition, a chronocharm of the horizon walker, or an anklet of translocation will allow you to deal with a lot of problematic situations.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Evasive Reflexes can help you maneuver around the battlefield. Whenever an enemy provokes an AoO, you may take a 5' step (instead of hitting them). When combined with long reach, and maybe an immediate action movement ability, you can always be in position to use Shield Ally/whatever other cover abilities you have.

Robilar's Gambit is a nice higher-level ability. Enemies provoke if they attack you, so you can take a 5' step, every time they hit you. Karmic Strike does much the same, but only works if you're actually hit.

Stormguard Warrior gives you +4 to hit and damage on your next turn for each AoO you don't take against a particular enemy. For example, at initiative 20, Orc #1 provokes twice, and at 15, Orc #2 provokes once, but in all three cases you do not attack. Your turn is on initiative 10, and on that turn you get +8 attack/damage against Orc #1, and +4 against Orc #2. If your DM is nice, using Evasive Reflexes will also trigger this bonus (so you can take 5' steps and get bonus damage).

Throwing all these together results in a fun, but pretty full build. You need:
- Dodge
- Combat Expertise
- Karmic Strike
- Evasive Reflexes
- Combat Reflexes
- Martial Study (any Iron Heart maneuver)
- Martial Stance (Punishing Stance)
- Ironheart Aura
- Stormguard Warrior
- Robilar's Gambit
(Improved Trip)
(Power Attack)

That's ten to twelve feats, which you can just about get with human/strongheart halfling and two flaws (knights get three bonus feet feats, but they're all mounted feats or useless feats - ask your DM to allow you to take Combat Expertise and Combat Reflexes instead, as archetypically tanky feats). You need Dex 13 and Int 13 (and Str 13, but you probably had that anyway), which eats into your strength and charisma, but you can be pretty punishing. For example, if your opponent attacks and hits you twice, you get to move 20' without provoking, and +16 to attack and damage against them on your next turn (two AoOs for attacking, two for hitting).

[Gweed]

I know this is not what you are looking for, but the Saint template adds +2DC to all EX and SU abilities.

If you want to optimize the Knight class from 1-20, specifically around Test of Mettle, then you really are talking about optimizing for Charisma, as that boosts your Test of Mettle DC.

[DarkOne-Rob]

So... this is more so wrong than not helpful... have you read test of mettle? Because that's aggro... just like a mmorpg... hence finding ways to maximize that.

One of my players actually played a pure knight in my last campaign and he was looking for same things you were looking for, OP...

...Against intelligent foes, he found that test of mettle wasn't reliable/did nothing as they just included his wizard in the AoE anyway...

...You can try and optimize test of mettle, but in practice, it didn't really do anything.
You may not like the truth, but that doesn't change that it's the truth. Good luck with your knight, I hope it is entertaining for you.

[Troacctid]

You partially read me right on the mounted combat bit, the dm likes lots of dungeons, buildings, and forests where mounted combat isn't the greatest. So I want to build the character for the aspects that don't revolve around d mounted combat and then use the built in class features to serve me when I need them. That will rarely happen so i'm not particularly concerned with building that way. Also, as far as mobility is concerned, knight class abilities have that covered too, they give you armor mastery which takes away your speed penalties. Hello 30 ft movement in heavy armor (yes I know 9th level... direct damage wizard... he literally has no other spells... this is not a high op game).
If you're a halfling, you get to ride a medium-size mount. Medium-size creatures generally have no problems maneuvering around dungeons and buildings and forests. Riding dogs and brixashulties (riding goats) also add legitimate combat utility with their trip attacks, and the scent ability is handy for tracking and preventing ambushes and such.

Having your move action available is actually extremely valuable because Fearsome armor allows you to demoralize as a move action. This means if you are mounted, you can move up to an enemy, Imperious Command demoralize them, and still have your standard action to attack. Alternately, you can demoralize two enemies at once, which is probably even better.


I know this is not what you are looking for, but the Saint template adds +2DC to all EX and SU abilities.

If you want to optimize the Knight class from 1-20, specifically around Test of Mettle, then you really are talking about optimizing for Charisma, as that boosts your Test of Mettle DC.
Saint is actually a great template, but I wouldn't recommend it on a knight unless you're already taking an exalted prestige class like Beloved of Valarian. There just aren't good exalted feats for the class, and you're already feat-starved, so it's too difficult to get the three exalted feats needed to qualify.

Phrenic might be decent though, if you are in the market for a template. It boosts your Charisma and offers additional on-theme abilities: Defensive Precognition, Body Adjustment, Empty Mind, and power resistance to make you better at tanking; Aversion, Brain Lock, Psionic Blast, and Psionic Dominate as additional ways to draw aggro away from your allies; a few damaging abilities just in case; and throw in Fission and Psionic Teleport as kickass extras for the endgame.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I believe he is going to house rule that he will use hit die instead of CR for the knight's challenge abilities.
This probably isn't in your favour, as a lot of creatures have more HD than CR. Mostly undead, animals, vermin, and so on, which you couldn't affect anyway, but HD > CR for most other types, too (other than outsiders). If you can get your DM to houserule something like 'max HD = level + Cha mod', that would be perfect.

See below! HD is probably better, then.

[LTwerewolf]

This probably isn't in your favour, as a lot of creatures have more HD than CR. Mostly undead, animals, vermin, and so on, which you couldn't affect anyway, but HD > CR for most other types, too (other than outsiders). If you can get your DM to houserule something like 'max HD = level + Cha mod', that would be perfect.

There's no upper limit on what test of mettle works only, only a lower limit.

[Blackhawk748]

As someone who's played a Knight, you're gonna want Iron Guard's Glare Stance from ToB. Trust me. You do an awful lot of standing next to squishy people, make yourself even better at it. The problem is you dont want to dip Crusader (which you would only need one level of and the benefits you get are amazing) so you are gonna have to burn 2 feats to get it, but it is worth it.

[ExLibrisMortis]

There's no upper limit on what test of mettle works only, only a lower limit.
Right, that's what I get for not looking it up. In that case, HD is probably better than CR.