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View Full Version : A potentially awful trick to play.



Traab
2016-06-29, 08:03 PM
Im not even sure if this could work but, could you create a demilich npc, then have it disguise itself as a "basic" lich? Like, animate a skeletal body without a head and just act like its a part of his body, that sort of thing? The point being, to lure his enemies into attacking him before they are ready to handle such an encounter. Obviously as a dm this could be used to create a tpk, but that would be awful. However, it could be an interesting way to extend a campaign as well. Your party of adventurers have leveled themselves up to the point where they can face the dreaded lich in its lair. They clear their way to the throne room, battle is joined. Then as they smash the lich's "body" the head starts laughing and flying at them making its greatly enhanced touch attacks and things of that nature. Cue a capture routine where your party has to escape and go back to getting ready because holy crow this is going to be harder.

Is this something that could be pulled off? Would that be something a party might find an interesting twist? Or would it just tick them off and feel like a cheap a**pull?

KillianHawkeye
2016-06-29, 08:27 PM
Well, the bones of a demilich are all encrusted with magical gemstones or whatever (including filling the eye sockets for a skull-based demilich), so that might be something the characters could easily notice.

Traab
2016-06-29, 09:32 PM
Well, the bones of a demilich are all encrusted with magical gemstones or whatever (including filling the eye sockets for a skull-based demilich), so that might be something the characters could easily notice.

I dont recall it saying you HAD to place gems in the eyes. For all we know they could be on the back of the skull covered by the hood of his fancy lich caster robe. Or, if its not the skull, I think I recall hands being mentioned, wearing gloves. Then when its time for the big reveal, he peels off the glove, the ominously glittering gems make their appearance, and anyone who makes the check for figuring out what that means then has to roll to see if they messed their trousers. :smalltongue: Though chances are they would realize something is up well before the reveal just because they are likely getting hit way harder than they should by a regular lich. More higher level spells, more difficulty in hitting him, that unfortunate immunity to most magic, etc etc etc.

Beneath
2016-06-30, 11:08 PM
A D&D3 Demilich could, but I don't know why a classic-flavor demilich would want to. In AD&D and old-school D&D, becoming a demilich isn't the elaborate ritual it was in 3e; it was more that a demilich is the remnant left over by a lich who neglected its physical form (this is how it is in 5e too); while some, notable Acererak, had enormous magical power because they left their demilich form behind as a trap in their tomb to trigger a ritual, but that wasn't the standard.

Mr Beer
2016-07-01, 12:00 AM
The old "ha-ha you thought it was a boss fight but you got crushed no save lol!" routine is one I don't enjoy as a player. I wouldn't mind GM-ing it, except that players don't like it and it's overused in old modules, possibly new ones as well, I don't know. Anyways, you know your players better than me, if you think they'll have fun, go for it.

Cazero
2016-07-01, 02:30 AM
I don't get it. It's basicaly a boss fight trap with the bait being an equally difficult boss fight.

nedz
2016-07-01, 03:33 PM
I once had a Demi-lich recruit a good aligned party by pretending to be a legendary hero - legends the Lich had planted themselves, years ago. They bought it - even when, after performing three major quests for him, he tried to destroy them: full denial/self deception from the players.

Yora
2016-07-02, 07:27 AM
Don't see how it could work. I believe in any edition liches can be wizards of any level as long as they meet the minimum requirement. Knowing it's a lich tella you it could be an 11th level lich or a 32nd level lich. There's not really a point where you'd say "Now we're able to defeat any lich we come across".

Inevitability
2016-07-02, 08:14 AM
Getting the body moving can be done with either Animate Dead or Animate Objects. The second creates a sturdier body, but it'll also result in nothing but the actual demilich detecting as undead.

Note that a demilich isn't necessarily a head. It can be any small part of the original creature's body. You could, for example, have a human demilich in the shape of a hand or a kobold demilich that looks like a tail.

Traab
2016-07-02, 10:16 AM
Don't see how it could work. I believe in any edition liches can be wizards of any level as long as they meet the minimum requirement. Knowing it's a lich tella you it could be an 11th level lich or a 32nd level lich. There's not really a point where you'd say "Now we're able to defeat any lich we come across".

Doesnt the demilich get a few bonuses to it? Like an increased touch attack, immunity to most spell damage, some boosts to basic abilities beyond what a lich of the same level would have. Also, according to the srd Challenge Rating: Same as the lich + 6. So basically, if you went expecting a level 20 lich, you will find yourself fighting a level 20 demilich thats 6 cr above that in difficulty and has a few bonuses you were not expecting, especially that immunity to magic. I imagine that would wreck almost any party that wasnt overpowered for the encounter in the first place.

Yora
2016-07-02, 11:12 AM
Yes, but why would the players expect to fight a level 20 lich? If they expect a level 26 lich, then running into a level 20 demi-lich would work out just fine. (If the challenge rating system of d20 would actually work.) But they could also assume that it's only a level 12 lich just as well.

But aside from that: How is the idea supposed to make the players enjoy the game more? Why would they be applauding being lied to? All character knowledge the players have comes from the GM. The GM decides what to tell, what not to tell them, and in what way to tell it. There's no contest of wits. Players are completely helplessly at the mercy of the GM when it comes to being able to know things in advance. When a GM wants to lie to the players the GM will always win. There's nothing clever about it that the players might appreciate.

goto124
2016-07-02, 07:41 PM
But aside from that: How is the idea supposed to make the players enjoy the game more? Why would they be applauding being lied to? All character knowledge the players have comes from the GM. The GM decides what to tell, what not to tell them, and in what way to tell it. There's no contest of wits. Players are completely helplessly at the mercy of the GM when it comes to being able to know things in advance. When a GM wants to lie to the players the GM will always win. There's nothing clever about it that the players might appreciate.

Where is the line between the NPCs lying to the PCs, and the GM lying to the players?

nedz
2016-07-02, 08:20 PM
But aside from that: How is the idea supposed to make the players enjoy the game more? Why would they be applauding being lied to? All character knowledge the players have comes from the GM. The GM decides what to tell, what not to tell them, and in what way to tell it. There's no contest of wits. Players are completely helplessly at the mercy of the GM when it comes to being able to know things in advance. When a GM wants to lie to the players the GM will always win. There's nothing clever about it that the players might appreciate.

It is not the DM lying to the players - it's the DM roleplaying NPCs, some of whom are unreliable and lie to the PCs.

In the session before last in one game I run: some Kobolds tried to trick the party twice. The players almost fell for it both times, but worked it out using Tracking of all things. The players quite enjoyed the session.

Adderbane
2016-07-02, 08:29 PM
Better trick; a lesser evil being (maybe an imp or something), riding around in a animated skeleton with a bunch of wands pretending to be a lich.

Efrate
2016-07-02, 10:44 PM
You can do this in a few ways, all of which have a place. Your way, which is essentially a demilich appearing to be weaker than he actually is. Good if your party is super confident and needs a wake up call about there always being a bigger fish.

They defeat a "lich" and destroy what they think is a phylactery. Nystuls magical aura is nice for this, or any other way to make a mundance thing appear magic with some neat effects tossed in for flavor. Demi lich comes back later and has been reborn! Or calls them fools, etc. Allows them to think they won, do a good job, then get attacked again later.

Use it as a bonus. If they are steamrolling stuff, let them think they win, then do the reveal. If they win a hard fought battle, then go with option two. Think of it like having a trap in the room that you do not necessarily need to activate, but if its too easy, suddenly a trap!