Pimp My Bard!

[GnomishPride]

Hi Playgrounders!
As the title would suggest, I need help optimizing a bard. I'm not very familiar with Pathfinder, but I am with 3.x. It's a gnome bard 4, planning to enter Loremaster. Any ideas would be much appreciated.

[Geddy2112]

Is there something in particular you want to do as a bard/loremaster? The combination leads towards being the knowledgebot/skillmonkey of the group and providing casting support.

Gnomes make solid bards, you probably wanna go with ranged combat and support. A whip or shortbow/crossbow or both are solid for fighting when you have to. Unfortunately loremaster is a very feat heavy PrC, so you can't really dedicate feats to combat. You probably need at least a 12 int to make the most of the class and prestiege class; example ability scores on a 15 point buy post racial mods 8/14/12/12/8/18 or 8/14/14/14/8/16 season to taste . Check out the Archivist archetype for your bard-you trade the inspire courage performance for the ability to buff the party against any monster you identify with a knowledge check, and get other bonuses to knowledge checks, spellcraft, etc. Since you are a gnome, look at the prankster archetype as well, although it might not fit the build. For gnome traits, academic replaces obscessive for +2 to a knowledge of your choice. Eternal hope replaces defensive training and hatred and is outright amazing. Weapon familiarity is useless for a bard, see if your DM will allow you to take the dimdweller trait that replaces it.

A feat you need as a bard at either level 11 or retrain at level 10 is discordant voice, no questions asked. Lingering performance is also an incredibly strong feat for bards, and if you find yourself or campaign setting constantly putting you into artificial/man made structures, check out the harmonic sage feat. If you wanna boost your knowledge skills more, breadth of experience is a solid choice but I doubt you will be failing any knowledge checks. If you really wanna be a textbook, take a couple dips into lore oracle and gain the ability to add to your knowledge skills. This mystery can also let you dump dexterity(use CHA for AC and reflex saves) and use charisma instead of intelligence for knowledge checks.

For the loremaster feat requirements, crafting is not really that good for a spontaneous caster, and you don't have any bonus crafting feats unless you go geisha archetype to get scribe scroll(but don't it is terrible). Craft wondrous item is pretty good though, even with a spontaneous caster. I would say craft wand and scribe scroll are the next two good options, but neither are great. Metamagic is your better feat route-bouncing spell works with many of the bard spells, extend spell and reach spell are also pretty good. Since you are a gnome, I strongly suggest the threatening spell metamagic for illusion power boosting. For the required skill focus: knowledge, go with a big 4 knowledge; Arcana, Nature, Planar, Religion as these are the big monster ID spells.

Knowing seven divination spells is also a bit tough for the bard, a 3rd level spell to boot. You will want the cantrip detect magic anyways, so there is one. You can take read magic as well for a second. For first level spells, timely inspiration, comprehend languages, tap inner beauty, and heightened awareness are your best divination choices. At second level you can get gallant inspiration(great) tongues(good) perfect placement(okay) and detect thoughts(meh). At third level is communal tongues, see invisibility, scrying, and witness. Scrying is probably the best of these to meet your required 3rd level div spell. There are no other divination spells worth mentioning till spell level 6, and at that point you missed the boat to get into the PrC.

Higher level divinations are campaign specific, and like the Loremaster Bard they don't function as well with a dungeon delve hack and slash.

[GnomishPride]

Is there something in particular you want to do as a bard/loremaster? The combination leads towards being the knowledgebot/skillmonkey of the group and providing casting support.
That's basically it. Knowledgebot and support.


Gnomes make solid bards, you probably wanna go with ranged combat and support. A whip or shortbow/crossbow or both are solid for fighting when you have to. Unfortunately loremaster is a very feat heavy PrC, so you can't really dedicate feats to combat. You probably need at least a 12 int to make the most of the class and prestiege class; example ability scores on a 15 point buy post racial mods 8/14/12/12/8/18 or 8/14/14/14/8/16 season to taste . Check out the Archivist archetype for your bard-you trade the inspire courage performance for the ability to buff the party against any monster you identify with a knowledge check, and get other bonuses to knowledge checks, spellcraft, etc. Since you are a gnome, look at the prankster archetype as well, although it might not fit the build. For gnome traits, academic replaces obscessive for +2 to a knowledge of your choice. Eternal hope replaces defensive training and hatred and is outright amazing. Weapon familiarity is useless for a bard, see if your DM will allow you to take the dimdweller trait that replaces it.
I looked at Archivist and it seems pretty cool, though the naturalist ability I feel is just inspire courage that requires a knowledge check. Those traits look awesome and I think I'll be using them.


A feat you need as a bard at either level 11 or retrain at level 10 is discordant voice, no questions asked. Lingering performance is also an incredibly strong feat for bards, and if you find yourself or campaign setting constantly putting you into artificial/man made structures, check out the harmonic sage feat. If you wanna boost your knowledge skills more, breadth of experience is a solid choice but I doubt you will be failing any knowledge checks. If you really wanna be a textbook, take a couple dips into lore oracle and gain the ability to add to your knowledge skills. This mystery can also let you dump dexterity(use CHA for AC and reflex saves) and use charisma instead of intelligence for knowledge checks.
Discordant voice is awesome. Lingering performance and harmonic sage both look really good too. Loracle seems worthwhile as well, but would hurt casting and bard stuff.


For the loremaster feat requirements, crafting is not really that good for a spontaneous caster, and you don't have any bonus crafting feats unless you go geisha archetype to get scribe scroll(but don't it is terrible). Craft wondrous item is pretty good though, even with a spontaneous caster. I would say craft wand and scribe scroll are the next two good options, but neither are great. Metamagic is your better feat route-bouncing spell works with many of the bard spells, extend spell and reach spell are also pretty good. Since you are a gnome, I strongly suggest the threatening spell metamagic for illusion power boosting. For the required skill focus: knowledge, go with a big 4 knowledge; Arcana, Nature, Planar, Religion as these are the big monster ID spells.
Those metamagics look real nice indeed.


Knowing seven divination spells is also a bit tough for the bard, a 3rd level spell to boot. You will want the cantrip detect magic anyways, so there is one. You can take read magic as well for a second. For first level spells, timely inspiration, comprehend languages, tap inner beauty, and heightened awareness are your best divination choices. At second level you can get gallant inspiration(great) tongues(good) perfect placement(okay) and detect thoughts(meh). At third level is communal tongues, see invisibility, scrying, and witness. Scrying is probably the best of these to meet your required 3rd level div spell. There are no other divination spells worth mentioning till spell level 6, and at that point you missed the boat to get into the PrC.

Higher level divinations are campaign specific, and like the Loremaster Bard they don't function as well with a dungeon delve hack and slash.
Thanks for all the advice. I would've never found these on my own. :smalltongue:

[Mithril Leaf]

You'll also want to pick up a longspear and maybe some gauntlets with the training ability from Inner Sea Intrigue. Training grants you a bonus combat feat that you qualify for, you'll want Flagbearer on the spear and there are plenty of other good combat feats for the gauntlets. Hang the Banner of Ancient Kings on the spear.

[GnomishPride]

You'll also want to pick up a longspear and maybe some gauntlets with the training ability from Inner Sea Intrigue. Training grants you a bonus combat feat that you qualify for, you'll want Flagbearer on the spear and there are plenty of other good combat feats for the gauntlets. Hang the Banner of Ancient Kings on the spear.

Flagbearer+Banner of Ancient Kings is a nice combo. Thanks for the tip!

[MindTheGap97]

Are you 100% set on Loremaster? There is a PrC called Pathfinder Chronicler that gives you 8+Int Skill Points and has easier prerequisites. You lose some levels of spellcasting but you get to continue your performance progression (even if it is delayed a little bit) and the ability to "store" your performances. I played an Halfling Archivist and decided to take a 4 levels dip into Pathfinder Chronicler and that character was a blast. Not truly optimal, but fun nonetheless

[GnomishPride]

Are you 100% set on Loremaster? There is a PrC called Pathfinder Chronicler that gives you 8+Int Skill Points and has easier prerequisites. You lose some levels of spellcasting but you get to continue your performance progression (even if it is delayed a little bit) and the ability to "store" your performances. I played an Halfling Archivist and decided to take a 4 levels dip into Pathfinder Chronicler and that character was a blast. Not truly optimal, but fun nonetheless

I looked at it but I think the Loremaster is cooler overall (and progresses spellcasting), though a dip in it wouldn't be the worst.

[Florian]

Drop the PrC. Bard is cool as it is and you will want to advances all class features. A lot of the better Bard spells hinge on working on your Bardic Music so you do not want to drop a senile level here.#
As has already been pointed out, Longspear and Combat Reflexes, Archery or Whip´n´Trip is the way to go, so focus on that.

[GnomishPride]

Drop the PrC. Bard is cool as it is and you will want to advances all class features. A lot of the better Bard spells hinge on working on your Bardic Music so you do not want to drop a senile level here.#
As has already been pointed out, Longspear and Combat Reflexes, Archery or Whip´n´Trip is the way to go, so focus on that.

You've got a point there. I just might do that.

[Gnaeus]

I would think your bard could pimp himself. But ok. He should meet me at the corner of Ponce and Moreland. Dress sexy.

[Florian]

You've got a point there. I just might do that.

When making the transition from 3,5 to PF, it really is important to note that the core classes have received a very pronounced bump to their "bottom" power level an perform better then their predecessors.

Take your time and look up Bard-only spells like the "Finale" family, look at feats like Lingering Song, talk with your team-mates about traits like Reckless Gambler and you´ll know where this is heading.