Tools?

[jacklindr]

I'm preparing my first 5e scenario and one of my players asked me about tools, to be more precise The poisoner's kit.

So all skills can be used by everyone, but only characters who are proficient in it can add their proficiency bonus, right?

Is it the same with all tools? According to the PHB it seems to be the case, but the DMG says that you have to be proficient to craft poison... My guess is everyone can use a poisoner's kit, but no everyone can craft it. Is this correct?

[Ninja_Prawn]

I'm preparing my first 5e scenario and one of my players asked me about tools, to be more precise The poisoner's kit.

So all skills can be used by everyone, but only characters who are proficient in it can add their proficiency bonus, right?

Is it the same with all tools? According to the PHB it seems to be the case, but the DMG says that you have to be proficient to craft poison... My guess is everyone can use a poisoner's kit, but no everyone can craft it. Is this correct?

It's a grey area and the RAW isn't always consistent. I'd say you're free to rule it however you like; I tend to agree that anyone can try something - that is to say, I avoid "you can't do this unless you have proficiency". Crafting is a separate issue (and a relevant one to the poisoner's kit, which is primarily a crafting tool), and it is probably a good idea to establish the ground rules there from the outset.

[Millstone85]

When the PHB describes tools, on page 154, there is nothing suggesting that proficiency does more than let you add your proficiency bonus.

However, when the PHB explains that you can only help someone with a task you could do yourself, on page 175, the example given is that you can't help someone open a lock if you do not have proficiency with thieves' tools.

That part of the rules is really not well written.

[jacklindr]

Well, that didn't lessen my confusion much ;-) But thanks for the replies anyway...

I think I'll allow everyone to use all skills... The down side is that characters may feel the same a bit, but I really like the freedom it offers.

But tools... I think I'll only let proficient characters use them...

[Millstone85]

So all skills can be used by everyone, but only characters who are proficient in it can add their proficiency bonus, right?
I think I'll allow everyone to use all skills... The down side is that characters may feel the same a bit, but I really like the freedom it offers.My apologies. I thought your first question was rhetorical and just served to introduce the second.

I don't think there is any doubt that all characters can use all skills, and just add their proficiency bonus when applicable.

[jacklindr]

My apologies. I thought your first question was rhetorical and just served to introduce the second.



It almost was... I was 99% sure, but wanted to make absolutly sure :)

Main question was about tools.

[hymer]

But tools... I think I'll only let proficient characters use them...

Be sure you know what you're getting into. Hammer, saw, nails, these are carpentry tools. Now I'm no carpenter, I certainly wouldn't make a door or chair or house. But I can use a saw at a pinch, and I haven't knocked myself over the fingers with a hammer in 25 years or so of using one on and off.
For adventurers, the thieves' tools are more specifically useful. It's not that unlikely to wind up with a party with nobody proficient in these things. And that means a big change in dealing with locks and traps when the party can't even try the obvious solution. There can still be DCs so high that it takes a skilled user to make it, or there can be consequences for botching by 5 or more (trap goes off, lock makes a creech alaerting the people on the other side, etc.). That way, proficiency and expertise still has a use.

[Ninja_Prawn]

For adventurers, the thieves' tools are more specifically useful. It's not that unlikely to wind up with a party with nobody proficient in these things. And that means a big change in dealing with locks and traps when the party can't even try the obvious solution. There can still be DCs so high that it takes a skilled user to make it, or there can be consequences for botching by 5 or more (trap goes off, lock makes a screech alerting the people on the other side, etc.). That way, proficiency and expertise still has a use.

Agreed. I'd also like to note that personally, I don't like the Help action with thieves' tools. How are you supposed to 'help' someone pick a lock? Massage their hand when they get a cramp? :smallconfused:

With some things, there probably should be a proficiency 'gate'. Take Vehicles (Water) for example. I wouldn't say you needed proficiency to row a rowboat, but I don't think I'd let someone without the proficiency captain a full-rigged ship. They just wouldn't know enough of what they were doing to carry it off.

And like, I wouldn't ask for proficiency in cook's utensils to make a stew or some rations, but can a non-proficient cook prepare a luxurious banquet? Maybe? Can they prepare magical foods? Probably not.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Agreed. I'd also like to note that personally, I don't like the Help action with thieves' tools. How are you supposed to 'help' someone pick a lock? Massage their hand when they get a cramp? :smallconfused:
Hold a light for them? Verbally consult about the lock's mechanics, the right type of picks to use, that sort of thing? Traps offer even more opportunity to hold things and such.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Hold a light for them? Verbally consult about the lock's mechanics, the right type of picks to use, that sort of thing? Traps offer even more opportunity to hold things and such.

But that's just back-seat driving and getting in the way. If someone tried to stand there telling me what picks to use, it wouldn't take long for me to start yelling "pick it yourself then, if you're so damn clever!"

I get it for isolated cases of super-locks and traps, but the vast majority of doors, chests, handcuffs etc. I just can't see how a second person can be any help.

[Mjolnirbear]

I judge some uses of skills only allowed by someone 'trained', where trained means being of a race, class, or background that could reasonably account for some inside knowledge. Or, of course, proficiency.

Identify Delzoun ruins? History proficiency, or being a dwarf. Describing a mythal? Being an elf, or Arcana proficiency, or possibly an abjurer or Sage.

But that is a definite houserule.

[Regitnui]

With some things, there probably should be a proficiency 'gate'. Take Vehicles (Water) for example. I wouldn't say you needed proficiency to row a rowboat, but I don't think I'd let someone without the proficiency captain a full-rigged ship. They just wouldn't know enough of what they were doing to carry it off.

I agree with this in most cases. Proficiency in the skill/tool/object makes you capable of using it better, but there are cases where I'd limit it. Poison kits specifically; unless you know what you're doing, you stand a good chance of accidentally poisoning yourself.

[Alejandro]

Hold a light for them? Verbally consult about the lock's mechanics, the right type of picks to use, that sort of thing? Traps offer even more opportunity to hold things and such.

In the same way that many people help a surgeon operate, despite not actually doing the operating.

[jacklindr]

Be sure you know what you're getting into. Hammer, saw, nails, these are carpentry tools. Now I'm no carpenter, I certainly wouldn't make a door or chair or house. But I can use a saw at a pinch, and I haven't knocked myself over the fingers with a hammer in 25 years or so of using one on and off.
For adventurers, the thieves' tools are more specifically useful. It's not that unlikely to wind up with a party with nobody proficient in these things. And that means a big change in dealing with locks and traps when the party can't even try the obvious solution. There can still be DCs so high that it takes a skilled user to make it, or there can be consequences for botching by 5 or more (trap goes off, lock makes a creech alaerting the people on the other side, etc.). That way, proficiency and expertise still has a use.

Good point! Using tools for relativly simple things should be possible.... I was thinking along the lines of extracting Carrion crawler Brain Juice and making baroque furniture :D

[Ninja_Prawn]

Good point! Using tools for relativly simple things should be possible.... I was thinking along the lines of extracting Carrion crawler Brain Juice and making baroque furniture :D

The real question is: what's the DC for making baroque furniture out of carrion crawler brain juice? And how much cornflour do you need to add before it congeals? :smalleek:

[hymer]

The real question is: what's the DC for making baroque furniture out of carrion crawler brain juice? And how much cornflour do you need to add before it congeals? :smalleek:

Take it north of the arctic circle (or south of the antarctic circle) and use your Ice Sculpture prof.

[RickAllison]

In the same way that many people help a surgeon operate, despite not actually doing the operating.

Additionally, the aide can hold a pick in position to allow the main user to explore with both hands.

[Regitnui]

The real question is: what's the DC for making baroque furniture out of carrion crawler brain juice? And how much cornflour do you need to add before it congeals? :smalleek:

It's not 'brain juice'! It's cerebrospinal fluid. Am I the only person who went to a university before picking up a weapon and poking monsters for money?

[Ninja_Prawn]

It's not 'brain juice'! It's cerebrospinal fluid. Am I the only person who went to a university before picking up a weapon and poking monsters for money?

*Drama queen voice* Well some of us thought it would be suboptimal if more than one of us had the same degree, so naturally I read Engineering instead of... knife-brain-ology or whatever. Heavens forbid we ever go into an actual dungeon where my hard-earned knowledge might come in handy! Harrumph!

[Coidzor]

IIRC you specifically need proficiency to make healing potions with herbalism kits.

[Regitnui]

*Drama queen voice* Well some of us thought it would be suboptimal if more than one of us had the same degree, so naturally I read Engineering instead of... knife-brain-ology or whatever. Heavens forbid we ever go into an actual dungeon where my hard-earned knowledge might come in handy! Harrumph!

Forgive me for my entire set of class features essentially being "I drink, and I know things." Also, it's called 'surgery'. It's what I use to get manticore barbs out of party members who study engineering instead of reading the bestiary I bought at the last town specifically so we don't think we're safe halfway up the narrow mountain pass someone said had to lead to the dwarven ossuary!

[WereRabbitz]

I like the idea that everyone can attempt something, but you can only help someone with something you proficient in.
Although I think that there should be a negative to attempting things like potion making or poisoning without any prior proficiency like if you roll a 1 you fail and it blows up but if your not proficient then if you roll a 1 or 2 it blows up.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I like the idea that everyone can attempt something, but you can only help someone with something you proficient in.
Although I think that there should be a negative to attempting things like potion making or poisoning without any prior proficiency like if you roll a 1 you fail and it blows up but if your not proficient then if you roll a 1 or 2 it blows up.

Poison: now with added TNT!

[Coidzor]

Poison: now with added TNT!

Well, you certainly don't want TNT in your bloodstream.

[Vogonjeltz]

I'm preparing my first 5e scenario and one of my players asked me about tools, to be more precise The poisoner's kit.

So all skills can be used by everyone, but only characters who are proficient in it can add their proficiency bonus, right?

Is it the same with all tools? According to the PHB it seems to be the case, but the DMG says that you have to be proficient to craft poison... My guess is everyone can use a poisoner's kit, but no everyone can craft it. Is this correct?

The section on Tools (PHB 154) suggests tool proficiency is required for some tool uses.

Example, the Herbalism kit: "Also, proficiency with this kit is required to create antitoxin and potions of healing."

In a general sense, I'd allow anyone to use the tools, but if the specific task requires them to be proficient (as indicated in Herbalism Kit, Navigator's Tools within the PHB and Lockpicking in the DMG on 103) then that's different.

Thieves tools aren't necessarily required for disarming traps but it appears from the DMG that anyone could use them for that purpose, profiency or no.

Poison crafting requires proficiency with the kit. Proficiency in the kit also applies to harvesting natural poisons, but that could be done with an Intelligence (nature) check instead (DMG 258).

So, there's a fairly reasonable demarcation between that which requires special training to even try (i.e. navigation, poison or antitoxin creation, using lock picks) and that which anyone could reasonably attempt (carving something, cooking something, playing games, etc...) even if they are unlikely to do well lacking proficiency.

[Regitnui]

Proficiency in a gaming set allows you to cheat undetectably. Otherwise, you win by chance or skill.

[Estrillian]

I've been running it that having proficiency with a set of tools is a shorthand for saying that your are skilled in that profession (in a similar but slightly lesser way than a Background implies the same thing).

So anyone can pick up a hammer and nails and try to nail a door shut (Dexterity roll), or to fix a broken chair back (Intelligence roll perhaps), but if you are proficient with Carpenter's Tools you can confidently make a door, or a chair, or hire yourself out as a carpenter for downtime activities (and earn a wage). Similarly anyone might try to get on a cart and drive it, but someone with proficiency in Land Vehicles knows how to load it, care for it, repair it, and race it down precarious mountain trails while being chased by wolf riders. i.e. the proficiency in this case is a gating mechanism for which sorts of rolls/tasks can be attempted by the character.

And of course the proficient character gets to add their Proficiency bonus to any of the rolls they make in these areas, whether they are the ones anyone might attempt (e.g. the door nailing) or the ones that only they can do (e.g. making a chair). For my game this is only one way of adding proficiency: having a skill proficiency, having a tool proficiency, being of the right race, having the right background, etc.

[Coidzor]

Proficiency in a gaming set allows you to cheat undetectably. Otherwise, you win by chance or skill.

I'm just imagining the Chess World Championships in D&Dland just being a whirlwind of cheating and counter-cheating now. :smallamused: