When must you prepare spells?

[Dalebert]

This came up again last night. People have this notion that prepared casters get up and the first thing they do is prepare their spells for the day. I believe that's a holdover from previous editions when you had to re-prepare any spells you had cast from the day before because it was now an empty slot. That's not the case in 5e. Many casters will have some default list they have prepared unless they have reason to anticipate a particular need in which case they just leave them. Preparing in 5e is the act of swapping out some spells for others.

5e does not specify a time limit. It just says you can do it after a long rest. So how fast must they do it? Can they pee first? Splash some water on their face? Eat breakfast? Read a newspaper? Browse the Internet? :smallwink:

This implies to me it's a once per long rest activity. I see no reason to assume there's some ticking clock and in fact I think the point of the flexibility of prepared casters is that they can, once per long rest, swap out some spells given sufficient time to do so.

[Giant2005]

From the language used, it is pretty clear that the intention was that it was done as part of the long rest. Otherwise they would have used the standard "Once you use this feature, you must finish a long rest before you can use it again" phrasing.

[Dalebert]

Damn, so you wouldn't even let me pee first. I'll make sure not to have wine too late at night!

Mearls is once again kooky IMHO. I agree with him on letting it happen whenever but would still limit to once.

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/22/can-a-wizard-prepare-spells-at-multiple-stages-of-the-day/

[TheFlyingCleric]

Long rests aren't just sleeping. You can spend up to two hours of the rest performing light activity, such as your morning ablutions. So they can do all those things before they finish the long rest and are 'forced' to prepare spells.

Or, considering that prayer/studying your spellbook is not exactly strenuous activity either, just say that preparing spells was done during the rest, with your spells changing only when the rest ends. That would make everything simple.

[Dalebert]

It says "when you finish a long rest"; not during, and it then gives a timeframe for how long it takes. It makes no sense to do that if it's happening during.

[cZak]

What are you trying to answer?

Seems re-combobulating your prepared spell list after a long rest is simple enough.

Trying to quantify the period seems an effort to manipulate the rule for advantage;
I finished a long rest.
I change x/n spell slots.
I have the option of changing y/n spell slots anytime after

[Dalebert]

Seems re-combobulating your prepared spell list after a long rest is simple enough.

My take on it is simple. It's the simplest IMHO because it resolves any ambiguity.


Trying to quantify the period seems an effort to manipulate the rule for advantage;
I finished a long rest.
I change x/n spell slots.
I have the option of changing y/n spell slots anytime after

No, I thought I was quite clear. You only get to do it once. (I disagree with Mearls on that point.) If you changed some spells early in the day, you can't then do it again later in the day. If you haven't done it yet, you still have whatever was in your prepared slots before your last long rest. They no longer go away upon casting.

I admit that it is more advantageous than being forced to do it the moment you wake up, but I contend that it's both more rational and that the advantage seems intended. Prepared casters are intended to have more flexibility but it's nigh worthless if you have to do with nearly zero knowledge of your challenges. This just means you can have your default spells, and assuming you have some time, you can, once after a long rest, swap out a few spells for 1 min per level of the spell. Your party comes across a lake they have to cross. Your cleric or druid hasn't prepared spells that day so he can stop and pray and swap out something for Water Walk. If he wants to swap anything else, he needs to also do it then or the opportunity is gone until he long rests again.

[Regitnui]

I think the timeframe is given for the occasion when the casters have to prepare spells under pressure; say the horde caught up just after the long rest and the martials need to hold them off so that the wizard can prepare teleport to get the party away safely.

[Dalebert]

...say the horde caught up just after the long rest...

How long after? After you put out the campfire and ate breakfast? After you peed? 4.7 seconds after?

I merely question imposing some arbitrary limit on how long after. That's my point. The flexibility is intended but the limit on that flexibility is also intended, i.e. only once per long rest.

[Giant2005]

Even with your ruling, it isn't all that useful. 1 min/level of each spell isn't a lot at low levels, but at level 20, you are looking at about an average of 2 hours required to update your spell list.
I guess 2 hours is still better than the 8 required for a long rest, but your ruling also has the annoying issue of your prepared caster actually getting less competent as he gains levels.

[Giant2005]

How long after? After you put out the campfire and ate breakfast? After you peed? 4.7 seconds after?

I merely question imposing some arbitrary limit on how long after. That's my point. The flexibility is intended but the limit on that flexibility is also intended, i.e. only once per long rest.

A long rest isn't just sleep. Take care of all of the mundane issues during the rest - if something attacks and screws up that rest, then bad luck I guess.

[hymer]

How long after? After you put out the campfire and ate breakfast? After you peed? 4.7 seconds after?

I merely question imposing some arbitrary limit on how long after. That's my point. The flexibility is intended but the limit on that flexibility is also intended, i.e. only once per long rest.

It better mean something a lot like 'immediately after'. Because since your very first long rest, you are always at a time 'after' a long rest. The sentence loses all meaning if you're too loose.

[Regitnui]

It better mean something a lot like 'immediately after'. Because since your very first long rest, you are always at a time 'after' a long rest. The sentence loses all meaning if you're too loose.

"Just as you're packing up camp, you hear the hoofbeats of the King's men. You, (wizard), were just finishing the last of your spells for the day. Do you want to go with what you've got or prepare one last spell to get the party away quickly?" DM starts countdown. Sort of like a spotlight moment for the wizard's player.

[cZak]

You only get to do it once.

Ok. Sorry I missed that.
- The PHB does not list a specific amount of time required?
- Does not specify the period; during the rest or 'after'?

Wow.
That could open all kinds of opportunity...

Eight hours into the adventure day, the wizard decides he needed to prep a different list of spells. Pulls out the book, sits down telling his companions "Give me..."

I can see how that might annoy DM's/ thrill wizard players...

[Slipperychicken]

A long rest isn't just sleep. Take care of all of the mundane issues during the rest - if something attacks and screws up that rest, then bad luck I guess.

Fighting and other adventuring stuff only screws up the rest if it takes an hour or more. PHB 186.

[Addaran]

Personnaly, i'd go with once per "day" (so after changing your list, you must long rest at least once before doing it again).

Fluff wise, Forgotten Realms used to have a special time of the day for the clerics, depending on the divinity. It's a cool concept that i love, but i prefer to stay simpler with the rules.

[Dalebert]

Even with your ruling, it isn't all that useful. 1 min/level of each spell isn't a lot at low levels, but at level 20, you are looking at about an average of 2 hours required to update your spell list. I guess 2 hours is still better than the 8 required for a long rest, but your ruling also has the annoying issue of your prepared caster actually getting less competent as he gains levels.

Huh? that's not MY ruling. That's straight from the PHB. I was quoting it. And as I said before, most prepared casters will keep most of their spells the same from day to day. They only have to spend the time for the ones they want to switch. If a level 20 wants to change ALL his spells, then yes it will take longer to swap out all that variety, but saying he's penalized for being higher level is like saying a high level fighter is penalized because he goes through arrows faster because he can make so many attacks. But now we digress.


Ok. Sorry I missed that.
- The PHB does not list a specific amount of time required?
- Does not specify the period; during the rest or 'after'?

*sigh* It specifies BOTH of those things. What it doesn't say is a time limit from the time of completing the long rest to when you can swap spells. I'll quote the exact text again straight from the PHB with my emphasis.

"You can change your list of prepared spells when
you finish a long rest. (so AFTER the rest; not during)
Preparing a new list of wizard
spells requires time spent studying your spellbook and
memorizing the incantations and gestures you must
make to cast the spell: at least 1 minute per spell level
for each spell on your list."

Also, why would it give the time it takes if that time is irrelevant, e.g. if this is something happening DURING and as part of your rest? People who say you can study as part of a rest didn't go to college.


Eight hours into the adventure day, the wizard decides he needed to prep a different list of spells. Pulls out the book, sits down telling his companions "Give me..."
I can see how that might annoy DM's/ thrill wizard players...

I don't see how it's any different than any other out-of-combat activity that takes a few minutes--casting a ritual spell, giving a speech with the leadership feat, a high level warlock using his capstone, etc. If there's time in-game to do it, there's no lag in real time, and presumably the point is for something that will directly or indirectly benefit the rest of the party, e.g. the cleric can now cast Water Walk on the party.

[Regitnui]

People who say you can study as part of a rest didn't go to college.

Speak for yourself, +0 Int Modifier*. :smalltongue:

I'm sure all the optimizers and rules gurus here study the PHB, DMG and guides often enough, and I'm pretty sure that's as relaxing for them as world building is for me, which is also backed up by reading a lot of science and story articles. The problem with college studying is it's a load of stuff you don't want to read over and over again. If a PC wizard doesn't enjoy studying spells on some level, they'd most likely be some other class.

The clerics and other preparing casters either pray or meditate for their spells. Only the wizard (and maybe a mystic) studies every day. And since prayer and meditation can be part of a long rest, I'd say that unless there's time pressure on the party, a wizard can prepare during the long rest as well.

*this was in no way intended to imply stupidity, but instead that a wizard usually has a +3 modifier from the sentence, "you all walk into a tavern". And now that I've killed the joke, you may pelt me with rotten fruit.

[Dalebert]

I don't think it's a big deal if you feel it's not very strenuous and want to allow it to happen during a long rest. I'm merely pointing out the RAW. The cleric section reads nearly verbatim the same as the wizard's:


You can change your list of prepared spells when you finish a long rest. Preparing a new list o f cleric spells requires time spent in prayer and meditation: at least 1 minute per spell level for each spell on your list.

The key parts relevant to my point are
1) it happens after; not during.
2) No time limit is given for when you have to start or finish.

I know it's not gospel, but it is worth noting that Mearls has a much more liberal interpretation than I do. I feel like they mention a long rest to limit you to swapping out spells once per long rest. He lets you do it as often as you like as long as you have time (1 min per level of spells swapped).

[Regitnui]

I know it's not gospel, but it is worth noting that Mearls has a much more liberal interpretation than I do. I feel like they mention a long rest to limit you to swapping out spells once per long rest. He lets you do it as often as you like as long as you have time (1 min per level of spells swapped).

I agree with you, and think Mr Mearls can stop being gamist and join us who are immersed. Once per long rest becomes "during a long rest" in my interpretation. I would, however, use the "X minutes per caster level" if the wizard/cleric/whatever needed to prepare a new spell in the middle of the day.

Can we agree on the preparing during long rest, but can be prepared at other times of the adventuring day?

[Dalebert]

Can we agree on the preparing during long rest, but can be prepared at other times of the adventuring day?

I'm not going to run it that way but again, don't think it's a game breaker. It's just not a big deal because most days people just keep the same spells and maybe just swap one or two occasionally so the time it takes may never be an issue. I'm sticking to once per long rest so if they do it during, then they've used it up. It's usually more useful to save it and see if you actually need to swap something for a particular occasion.

[Farecry]

One thing to note is that you must spend time for every spell on your list, not just the new ones. So this could waste a lot of time at higher levels if you're not allowing it to happen during the long rests.

[TheFlyingCleric]

I ended up in the strange situation of arguing that something was RAW, after I had already said that it was silly that RAW said that was the case. It took me a while to realise how stupid I was being.

Anyway, the best way I see of dealing with RAW being silly is to not follow RAW in those situations. My personal way is to adjust the rules so that they make sense, while ensuring minimal impact on game balance. I had an example of this in my first post here. Basically, I would let spell preparation be done as part of a long rest, being the last thing you did before the rest ended. Your spells would only change once the rest finished, at that same special moment you regained all your expended spell slots etc.

The only mechanical effect this would have is that the other classes would no longer have to wait half an hour after their rest, while the Clerics and Wizards prepared their spells for the day.

[Dalebert]

One thing to note is that you must spend time for every spell on your list, not just the new ones. So this could waste a lot of time at higher levels if you're not allowing it to happen during the long rests.

Crap. It is worded that way. I really doubt that was intentional. It's just so counter-intuitive, e.g. "I want to change out Invisibility for Magic Mouth." and then you have to re-prepare all of your other spells as well. I would ignore the RAW on that respect and go with what I think is the RAI. I think the list they're referring to is just supposed to be the ones you're changing out. Otherwise there's this potentially long period of time in which the caster is in some weird ambiguous state of either having no spells prepared at the moment he starts or still having his entire list of previous spells until the very last moment of that period of time when the new list *snaps* into place. :smallconfused: Either way makes no sense.

Mearls' interpretation does seem to resolve that, though I still think his version is a bit too liberal.

[Slipperychicken]

If a PC wizard doesn't enjoy studying spells on some level, they'd most likely be some other class.

I'd play a wizard who hates studying, but puts up with it to wield cool powers.

[Dalebert]

I'd play a wizard who hates studying, but puts up with it to wield cool powers.

Absolutely that's viable. I guarantee I didn't want to take all the math I was forced to take to get a computer science degree.

[Regitnui]

I'd play a wizard who hates studying, but puts up with it to wield cool powers.

If you didn't enjoy studying spells at some level. It's not the arcane formulae, but the spells you enjoy. Hence, you must enjoy the studying at some level. Otherwise, you'd have cut a deal with a patron by now and been a warlock.

[Slipperychicken]

If you didn't enjoy studying spells at some level. It's not the arcane formulae, but the spells you enjoy. Hence, you must enjoy the studying at some level. Otherwise, you'd have cut a deal with a patron by now and been a warlock.

Or in other words, become Satan's plaything, resign my soul to hell (or whatever awful place the fey or old ones will send it), have an extremely limited spell selection, and all that to use my 8 charisma for a casting stat? When I could be my own boss, with my own soul, change my spells every day, and use my wonderful 16 intelligence brain to cast stuff?

I dislike studying, but not that much.

[Vogonjeltz]

5e does not specify a time limit. It just says you can do it after a long rest.

Fact checking: The PHB states a specific time which is not after a long rest. "You can change your list of prepared spells when you finish a long rest." That means it takes effect at the conclusion of the long rest, but the preparation doesn't happen then, it necessarily happens before.

The next sentence indicates how long you must spend preparing that list before the change happens. i.e. During the long rest, although there's no reason it can't be done before that, the change just won't take affect until the long rest is finished, so it would be a huge waste of time not to do it during the long rest.