Can you use dueling and great weapon fighting fighting styles together?

[Klorox]

Dueling states that the weapon be used in one hand. Great weapon fighting says the weapon must be heavy or have the versatile property.

What's stopping you from using both with a longsword or hammer and shield?

[Rysto]

Re-read the first sentence of the GWF description. You must make an attack while wielding the weapon with two hands, so Dueling is not compatible.

[smcmike]

What's stopping you from using both with a longsword or hammer and shield?

The first sentence of great weapon fighting.

[Easy_Lee]

As above.

Given this answer, you may be wondering if it ever makes sense for a fighter to use the versatile property of a weapon. The answer is, pretty much, no. Greatswords deal better damage than longswords when two handed, and dueling makes longswords deal more damage in one hand than two.

[Addaran]

As above.

Given this answer, you may be wondering if it ever makes sense for a fighter to use the versatile property of a weapon. The answer is, pretty much, no. Greatswords deal better damage than longswords when two handed, and dueling makes longswords deal more damage in one hand than two.

The advantage of versatile is if you need your hand for something else (torch, grappling, hanging on a rope etc) and that's about it.
Unless the DM consider the space used to swing weapons and decide there's disadvantage for a two handed swords but not a longswords. (doubtfull in most case, a dagger vs a 2-handed in a small space sure, but longswords and 2-handed are both pretty long.)

Oh, and for style. =P

[smcmike]

As above.

Given this answer, you may be wondering if it ever makes sense for a fighter to use the versatile property of a weapon. The answer is, pretty much, no. Greatswords deal better damage than longswords when two handed, and dueling makes longswords deal more damage in one hand than two.

Hmm. I don't want to try to do the math, but how about a level 15 half-orc champion with both fighting styles, attacking with advantage? Bigger dice and rerolls are nice if you're chasing crits.

[Belac93]

As above.

Given this answer, you may be wondering if it ever makes sense for a fighter to use the versatile property of a weapon. The answer is, pretty much, no. Greatswords deal better damage than longswords when two handed, and dueling makes longswords deal more damage in one hand than two.

The only time I have ever seen longswords used versatile, was when fighting were-creatures in a game, and the fighter was a 2 handed fighter with a silver longsword and no shield.

[Calimehter]

Versatile means your GW specialist won't feel bad when the party finds a neat magic longsword. He will still be able to use his fighting style while wielding it.

[smcmike]

Versatile means your GW specialist won't feel bad when the party finds a neat magic longsword. He will still be able to use his fighting style while wielding it.

This doesn't really make sense for a real GW specialist, since such a character probably wants to use the GWM feat at least situationally, which requires a Heavy weapon for -5/+10. If you are building a fighter to optimize melee damage, you shouldn't plan on using a versatile weapon two-handed.

On the other hand, it's a fine option for any build that doesn't have dueling. If you go with defense, protection, or archery, it may make perfect sense to use your long sword two-handed at times.

[Lollerabe]

Why -5/+10 dosent work with a 2hand wielded versatile weapon is beyond me, but yeah versatile is pretty lackluster by raw. We house ruled that they count as heavy for the small races, that at least make them see play.

[Easy_Lee]

Why -5/+10 dosent work with a 2hand wielded versatile weapon is beyond me, but yeah versatile is pretty lackluster by raw. We house ruled that they count as heavy for the small races, that at least make them see play.

IMO, the - 5/+10 part of the feat is dumb, as it's either OP or a terrible choice depending on the circumstance.

One solution is to allow dueling to work with versatile weapons when wielded two-handed. The great weapon fighting style adds about 1.73 damage per hit, based on the last math I saw, and you don't double dueling damage on crits, so a 2d6 greatsword with that is still stronger. But it lets fighters use versatile weapons without losing too much damage over a great weapon.

[Lollerabe]

Also a fine idea. However my point wasent rather or not the power attack part of GWM is good or not, just that's it's dumb it dosent work on versatile weapons.

I like the power attack, on my eldritch knight it's been a bad move to use it 70%+ of the time, but damn do I feel awesome when I use it and it sticks. Anyway getting sidetracked, making duelist work while versatile wielding sounds cool.

[Slipperychicken]

This doesn't really make sense for a real GW specialist, since such a character probably wants to use the GWM feat at least situationally, which requires a Heavy weapon for -5/+10. If you are building a fighter to optimize melee damage, you shouldn't plan on using a versatile weapon two-handed.

It makes sense when you want to get past resistances, or don't want your weapon getting nommed by a black pudding or rust monster.


I played a great weapon fighter for almost a year. After I got a +1 longsword, I often found myself putting the greatsword away to use it. I had programmed a damage-calculator, so I used the longsword when it was optimal, which turned out to be surprisingly often. About every 2nd or 3rd fight, I recall.

[Calimehter]

This doesn't really make sense for a real GW specialist, since such a character probably wants to use the GWM feat at least situationally, which requires a Heavy weapon for -5/+10. If you are building a fighter to optimize melee damage, you shouldn't plan on using a versatile weapon two-handed.

On the other hand, it's a fine option for any build that doesn't have dueling. If you go with defense, protection, or archery, it may make perfect sense to use your long sword two-handed at times.

Funny how easy it is to miss things that are right there. I was looking at the fighting style and didn't think to look to see if the wording on the feat matched. :smallredface:

[Zalabim]

Hmm. I don't want to try to do the math, but how about a level 15 half-orc champion with both fighting styles, attacking with advantage? Bigger dice and rerolls are nice if you're chasing crits.

I've done the math before. Don't feel like doing it again, so I'll summarize:

If you have both fighting styles for some reason, then you basically won't lose damage (and may even gain damage) swinging your longsword two-handed if you're a half-orc, or a champion, or have advantage. If you put all three together, it might even be worth not using a shield (but probably not).

This is because the one-handed damage is 6.5+str per hit and 11+str per crit while the two-handed damage is 6.3+str per hit and 12.6+str per crit. The basic ratio is damage is even at 8:1 hits to crits, which is 40% hit chance with 5% crit chance, 80% hit chance at 10% crit chance, 78% hit chance at 9.75% crit chance, and the ratio itself changes to 17:1 for half-orcs, which is 85% hit chance at 5% crit chance. So, if you hit 45% of the time normally (rare), 90% of the time if you're a champion or half-orc(also rare), or 87.75% of the time if you have advantage (average). It's a little odd.

Oh, if you put together the example at average hit rate, then you get 13.41225 average damage two-handed and 12.58875 for one-handed, per attack. Damn, now I've done the math.