Cat power: how strong are animal companions expected to be?

[Knight Magenta]

In the last little while, I've been looking at balancing the non-big cat animal companions. Most of the non-dinosaur companions are behind the cat in terms of damage, with only small defense gains to show for it, if that. Especially sad are the animals that get their stat boost at level 4, like the boar.

So I am wondering, what should I balance my changes around? Is the cat what is expected of an animal companion and I should strengthen the other ACs? Should I just nerf the cats? Has anyone done something similar?

If anyone is interested, my DPR numbers for levels 1, 4, 7, and 9 can be found in this spreadsheet (https://drive.google.com/open?id=18VsXhdG4n96weJxl7Js_8OGqlttsYtQNMLz4u_z0u 5E).

My tentative plan is to make just 5 or 6 animals that are mutually balanced, and allow for customization via archetypes. They would also all have a level 4 and 7 bump.

My thinking for the niches the animals would fill would be:
wolf/canine: combat maneuvers, medium DPR, high mobility
cat/various dinosaurs: medium DPR, high damage on charges
horse/boar/elk: low dpr, medium damage on charges, high defenses
bear/badger: low mobility, high full attack damage, rage
bird/bat: low damage, flying

Aquatic would be an archetype that you could apply to any animal type. So an aquatic wolf would be a shark, while an aquatic boar would make a turtle.

[trikkydik]

Just wanted to say that spreadsheet is pretty cool. i think you're above my help, but i do have a couple questions/inputs.

1.) Have you considered how many arch types there are? (again your knowledge is superior to mine) but what about like, climbing, flying, digging?

2.) You have definitely done your lab work, i think you just need to test out your results in real time campaigning.

3.) Do your PC's have inflated stats? (like mine do) And is this campaign heavily based on druid-esque stuff?

4.) i like putting sentences in numerical order.

[Gallowglass]

In the last little while, I've been looking at balancing the non-big cat animal companions. Most of the non-dinosaur companions are behind the cat in terms of damage, with only small defense gains to show for it, if that. Especially sad are the animals that get their stat boost at level 4, like the boar.

So I am wondering, what should I balance my changes around? Is the cat what is expected of an animal companion and I should strengthen the other ACs? Should I just nerf the cats? Has anyone done something similar?

If anyone is interested, my DPR numbers for levels 1, 4, 7, and 9 can be found in this spreadsheet (https://drive.google.com/open?id=18VsXhdG4n96weJxl7Js_8OGqlttsYtQNMLz4u_z0u 5E).

My tentative plan is to make just 5 or 6 animals that are mutually balanced, and allow for customization via archetypes. They would also all have a level 4 and 7 bump.

My thinking for the niches the animals would fill would be:
wolf/canine: combat maneuvers, medium DPR, high mobility
cat/various dinosaurs: medium DPR, high damage on charges
horse/boar/elk: low dpr, medium damage on charges, high defenses
bear/badger: low mobility, high full attack damage, rage
bird/bat: low damage, flying

Aquatic would be an archetype that you could apply to any animal type. So an aquatic wolf would be a shark, while an aquatic boar would make a turtle.

You are coming close to remaking the Eidilon from Pathfinder's Summoner. An Eidilon is a special summoning companion of the Summoner that starts out as a block of stats, some of which go up as the summoner levels (hitdice, BAB, # of attacks, saves, etc.) a base form (bipedal, aquatic, reptile, etc.) and the ability for the summoner to buy a set number of evolutions to customize their companion (different movement modes, special attacks, feats, ex and su abilities, etc.)

That seems like what you are doing here in an attempt to create balance where there are obvious imbalance issues between the animal companions available to the druid.

Not saying that's a bad thing. Just saying you should check out what they did with the summoner, you'll probably find some good ideas to incorporate.

[Knight Magenta]

You are coming close to remaking the Eidilon from Pathfinder's Summoner. An Eidilon is a special summoning companion of the Summoner that starts out as a block of stats, some of which go up as the summoner levels (hitdice, BAB, # of attacks, saves, etc.) a base form (bipedal, aquatic, reptile, etc.) and the ability for the summoner to buy a set number of evolutions to customize their companion (different movement modes, special attacks, feats, ex and su abilities, etc.)

That seems like what you are doing here in an attempt to create balance where there are obvious imbalance issues between the animal companions available to the druid.

Not saying that's a bad thing. Just saying you should check out what they did with the summoner, you'll probably find some good ideas to incorporate.

I like the summoner in principle. My problem with it is similar to the cat problem. The optimal build for an eidolon seems like it is always to add the maximum number of natural attacks, give it pounce, and pump it's size and strength. There need to be more evolutions that make single attacks and debuffs viable.

[Gallowglass]

I like the summoner in principle. My problem with it is similar to the cat problem. The optimal build for an eidolon seems like it is always to add the maximum number of natural attacks, give it pounce, and pump it's size and strength. There need to be more evolutions that make single attacks and debuffs viable.

Ah. Well, in my opinion, that's more a problem of "the adventure they are given" than a core problem with the rules. If most/all encounters are most efficiently overcome by applying the most damage face to face as quickly as possible, then that's they strongest build. If most/all encounters happen in a map that allows charging melee to be the most efficient combat style, then that's the strongest build.

The summoner in my current group has discovered that a variety of scouting/movement abilities is more important than melee damage because those are the challenges she has to overcome. Most of the party warriors are skirmish, mounted archers because that's been the most effective way to deal with the terrain and foe strategies they've been facing. The guy who wants to be a straight up pounce-charger has had a difficult time.

When your druid goes up a level, they need to have a solid reason for thinking "I can pick up burrow 30' or I can pick up pounce" and actually have had experience in game to make that a difficult choice. Or else you are correct, everyone gets a fleshraker (Or whatever animal companion is the vogue these days)

[Amphetryon]

I like the summoner in principle. My problem with it is similar to the cat problem. The optimal build for an eidolon seems like it is always to add the maximum number of natural attacks, give it pounce, and pump it's size and strength. There need to be more evolutions that make single attacks and debuffs viable.

It seems the root of the problem, here, is the nature of getting choices in 3.X. If the choices are, indeed, meaningful, then some will basically have to be better than others. The game has been around long enough, and the internet community has been vibrant enough, that the optimal choices have been pretty thoroughly explored. If, on the other hand, then all choices are going to be equally viable, then - for many of us - that's equivalent to there being no choice at all.

[Der_DWSage]

It seems the root of the problem, here, is the nature of getting choices in 3.X. If the choices are, indeed, meaningful, then some will basically have to be better than others. The game has been around long enough, and the internet community has been vibrant enough, that the optimal choices have been pretty thoroughly explored. If, on the other hand, then all choices are going to be equally viable, then - for many of us - that's equivalent to there being no choice at all.

I kinda have to argue with this-just because the choices are equally viable doesn't mean they have to all be the same, or that they can't be made better with synergy.

As an example, let's say that there are three ways for an animal companion to deal 20 damage over 2 rounds. The first does it by being accurate-he doesn't deal much damage, but he targets touch AC, so he's pretty reliable. The second does it by having a single attack that just deals 20 damage, but he's only got a 50% chance at accuracy. The third deals 14 damage from his single, not-as-accurate attack, but he also inflicts 3 points of bleed damage-so if he hit on the first round, he dealt a total of 20 damage.

The first one becomes more powerful from options that inflict more damage, or use status conditions. The second one becomes more powerful from added accuracy. The third one can benefit from accuracy and damage. And that's without taking into account non-damage options, like the Ankylosaurus' ability to inflict Daze on a successful hit.

All that said...it kind of requires redoing animal companions from the ground up. It's not a quick fix as it is, because all the good companions have a level 7 advancement instead of level 4, and they either do a lot of natural attacks or they have one really good one.

[Knight Magenta]

Just wanted to say that spreadsheet is pretty cool. i think you're above my help, but i do have a couple questions/inputs.

1.) Have you considered how many arch types there are? (again your knowledge is superior to mine) but what about like, climbing, flying, digging?

2.) You have definitely done your lab work, i think you just need to test out your results in real time campaigning.

3.) Do your PC's have inflated stats? (like mine do) And is this campaign heavily based on druid-esque stuff?

4.) i like putting sentences in numerical order.

1) Hmm. I didn't really think about digging and climbing. I may have more work ahead of me.

2) ya, i am in 2 campaigns, and between the two of them we have 3 animal companions and 1 eidolon :D

3) Stats are a little high. We are using Path of War and we play at a higher optimization level.

4) point form is the best :D

[upho]

I like the summoner in principle. My problem with it is similar to the cat problem. The optimal build for an eidolon seems like it is always to add the maximum number of natural attacks, give it pounce, and pump it's size and strength. There need to be more evolutions that make single attacks and debuffs viable.I don't think this is quite true, actually. In a game limited to Paizo options, the eidolon is perhaps the only player controlled creature which can do serious melee control/defense very effectively during most levels. Evos such as grab, trip, SR, blindsight, Improved Natural Armor, Huge size and reach plus feats such as Snatch, Combat Expertise and Equipment Trick (rope) really matter in order to make such non-damage focused combat styles not just viable but truly impressive, while damage options like quadruped base form, limbs (arms), claws, pounce and rake become decidedly more "meh". (Besides, the most damaging eidolons use manufactured weapons in order to bypass the max natural attack limit.)

And like Gallowglass said, depending on your campaign, party, play style etc, there may very well be abilities having a higher priority than those enhancing pure combat prowess.

TL/DR: While I think a balancing of ACs is good idea and very much needed, be careful not to put too much focus on damage numbers when looking at combat prowess, or too much focus on combat prowess in general.