What Amount of Damage SHOULD an average 4 person party be able to output per round?

[gfishfunk]

What Amount of Damage SHOULD an average 4 person party be able to output per round? EDIT: LEVEL 4

Don't worry about the exact party make up - an average, hypothetical party. There is a huge variation between classes, but not necessarily a huge variation among party compositions. You will rarely see everyone playing a vengence Pally at level 4, and rarely see everyone playing a land druid at level 4.

Also, I'm not taking into account super-damage dealing builds.

I'm just wondering three things:

1. Low but average damage output
2. Median damage output
3. High but average damage output

Any ideas?

[krugaan]

What Amount of Damage SHOULD an average 4 person party be able to output per round?

Don't worry about the exact party make up - an average, hypothetical party. There is a huge variation between classes, but not necessarily a huge variation among party compositions. You will rarely see everyone playing a vengence Pally at level 4, and rarely see everyone playing a land druid at level 4.

Also, I'm not taking into account super-damage dealing builds.

I'm just wondering three things:

1. Low but average damage output
2. Median damage output
3. High but average damage output

Any ideas?

... at what level?

[gfishfunk]

Sorry. Level 4. I edited it to reflect that.

[Kryx]

Perhaps DPR of Classes (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=2025852255) can help you? Combine any 4 classes you want. Take off certain percentages to assume players aren't playing well if you want.

It entirely depends on the party.

[Slipperychicken]

What is the party composition? And what are they fighting? Those things have a big impact on what kind of damage they can do.

[gfishfunk]

Perhaps DPR of Classes (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=2025852255) can help you? Combine any 4 classes you want. Take off certain percentages to assume players aren't playing well if you want.

It entirely depends on the party.

I'll check it out when its not blocked from work, but party composition is NOT the point. You can get to a specific DPR with specific classes, but I am asking about an average.

If you were designing an encounter for strangers and said something like 'and this guy will die on average on round 3 for the average 4 person level 4 party.


What is the party composition? And what are they fighting? Those things have a big impact on what kind of damage they can do.

They are fighting a Medium encounter for their level. An average one.

Or, another way to figure it out, is to say that they are going to be fighting the encounter that I design.

And I don't want the encounter to drag on.

And I don't want the encounter to finish up way to fast.

And I don't want to fudge the dice.

[Kryx]

If you were designing an encounter for strangers and said something like 'and this guy will die on average on round 3 for the average 4 person level 4 party.
That is impossible to predict as it entirely depends on the composition, the situation, the layout of the battlefield, etc etc.

I would suggest following the DMG guidelines for enemy AC, HP, CR, number of enemies, etc

[Armored Walrus]

gfishfunk, I think you just did the equivalent of asking the Society of Thermophysicists "How hot is hot?"

Good luck getting your answer. Personally, I don't have a clue.

Edit: although I would guess somewhere between 40 and 80 per round would be somewhat "average".

[Kryx]

I can give you random groups based on my numbers:

Barbarian GWM: 17
Fighter S&B: 9
Wizard: Varies based on enemies. Assuming scorching ray 7*3=10*.65 = 6.5 DPR. Cantrip is about 4.5*.65 = 3
War Cleric Greatsword: 13

so about 40-45 DPR on average depending on a LOT of circumstances.

[gfishfunk]

I asked mostly because I thought someone would have done the math before, but I can fiddle with numbers.

There has to be at least a ballpark. No one is rolling a d100 for damage -- and if they are, its not consistently, and they are likely homebrew twinks.

Let me throw some numbers up and we can start building on them. Or I can start building on them. Whatever.

An average weapon attack is going to do about 1d8+3. That averages out to about 6.5 (4.5+2). There are d4s and there are d6s and there are d10s, and even some 2d6s and d12s, but the most common is going to be d8s.

The best cantrip is going to average about a d10+3 for 8.5, right? Some are something like d6s, d8s, and stuff like that.

That is still a fairly small window:
At will abilities (minus class features) average about 7.5 per character. Lets give it a 5% bump, say 7.875.

And I'll arbitrarily add an additional 6 damage for other abilities: sneak attack, battlemaster, additional monk attacks, smites, etc. These don't include spells.

Is that an okay ballpark -- without spells and not worrying about missing attacks yet -- 13.5 per character? Some are going to spike more damage, others are going to vicious mockery for crap damage?

[Kryx]

Is that an okay ballpark -- without spells and not worrying about missing attacks yet -- 13.5 per character? Some are going to spike more damage, others are going to vicious mockery for crap damage?
Probably more like 7 per character assuming a typical martial/caster split.

Though this changes greatly as casters get spells.

[Easy_Lee]

We can probably say that the standard four-man party would be champion fighter, thief rogue, life cleric, and some form of wizard. That's the most iconic one, and probably the standard by which other parties ought to be judged.

[Kryx]

champion fighter
Or we could use an archetype that people actually play.

(don't hit me, I know you like the archetype, but it's so boring and few people play it)

On the topic of class composition: I haven't ever even seen 3/4 of that composition in my years of playing. Most I've ever seen of those in 1 group is 2/4.

[gfishfunk]

Alright: adjustment somewhat downwards.

Spellcasters are tricky: their cantrips usually do low damage, but the spells slots can potentially spike damage.

Also, there are expendable resources that can help, which is why I am willing to push up the average damage.

Then, attacks miss probably....40% of the time? Is that anyone's experience?

[Kryx]

Then, attacks miss probably....40% of the time? Is that anyone's experience?
Typical hit rate is about 60-65% assuming you start at 16 and boost your main stat at 4 and 8.

[gfishfunk]

My main reason for asking all of this is that I run a game, and my PCs have terrible damage per round. When I create creatures, it takes forever for them to chew through those creatures --- and yet my creatures have significantly lower HP than the suggestion with the DMG and most monsters from the manual.

Instead of hitting the DMG for suggested creature HP, I was trying to figure out HP based on three or four turns of combat and average adventurer damage output. Honestly, the information is not as useful as it is interesting.

[gfishfunk]

Typical hit rate is about 60-65% assuming you start at 16 and boost your main stat at 4 and 8.

That is a very reasonable assumption. So, we can take the average damage output and reduce it to 60% of the total, because that is the only damage that is sticking: 40 damage a round scales back to 24 per round.

After 3 rounds, 72 hp of things should be dead.*
After 4 rounds, that goes up to 96.
Is that fair?

*This is ignoring resistance

[Slipperychicken]

Well, we can assume they have at least 16 in their attack stat and +2 proficiency, so their tohit should be around +5. Without an AC, I'll assume 15. Remember that players can occasionally get reaction attacks. Not sure how often though.

I'm not bothering with big damage spells or attack buffs right now. I'll just give some typical builds' at-will attacks, and you can build your average party damage from that.


Someone with 16 in his attack stat at level 4, nothing special. Could be an snb fighter, a dextrous bard with a light crossbow, a cleric's spiritual weapon spell, a druid's shillelagh, etc:
1d8+3
+5 to hit
versus AC 15, that's an expected damage of 4.35 per attack. With advantage it's 6.42.

A GWM fighter with 18 str
2d6+4, reroll ones and twos
+6 to hit
versus AC 15, that's 7.81 per attack, or 11.17 with advantage
He might trigger an extra attack, so you can call it like 25% or 50% to get another one, for about 9.7 or 11.7 per round.

A crossbow expert fighter with 18 dex
1d6+4
+8 to hit (4 dex, 2 prof, 2 archery style)
versus AC 15, that's 5.8 per attack. Since they always get two attacks, that's 11.6 per turn. If he somehow got advantage, then 14.74

Someone casting an attack cantrip like sacred flame or bonfire, DC 14
1d8
55% chance to land against a +2 save bonus
2.475 per casting. That's pretty bad, huh.

[Kryx]

That is a very reasonable assumption. So, we can take the average damage output and reduce it to 60% of the total, because that is the only damage that is sticking: 40 damage a round scales back to 24 per round.

After 3 rounds, 72 hp of things should be dead.*
After 4 rounds, that goes up to 96.
Is that fair?

*This is ignoring resistance
The damage I put above is DPR which already takes to-hit into account.

[mgshamster]

Or we could use an archetype that people actually play.

(don't hit me, I know you like the archetype, but it's so boring and few people play it)

On the topic of class composition: I haven't ever even seen 3/4 of that composition in my years of playing. Most I've ever seen of those in 1 group is 2/4.

In my PBP I'm recruiting for, all three fighter applicants are champions, out of 11 total applicants. And I'm planning on playing one as soon as my warlock dies (which in kind of surprised he hasn't died yet; it's a lethal game).

[MrStabby]

It may not be what you are looking for but as a rule of thumb, if the whole party attacks (at least at close to full strength) it means the encounter is over and they are mopping up.

I normally have characters manoeuvring for position, closing range, subject to a status effect, grappling or shoving an enemy, solving a puzzle under fire or similar close to the start of the fight. Once the encounter has run out of ways to mess with the party it is pretty much over.

As others have noted there is what the party can do without trying and what happens when they expend resources. Rage, spell slots, even hit dice if you count things like reckless attack means that party peak damage can far outshine normal damage.

I would suggest you wan't most encounters to need some meaningful resource expenditure. I would guess casters to use their second highest spell slot on a fight for example, monks to expend a couple of Ki points per fight and so on. Not too balls-to-the-wall draining but tough enough to be interesting (if not actually dangerous if they use their resources).

[Foxhound438]

well, usually you have two castery types and two martialy types in a given party of four, with one of the latter two taking either a power attack feat or crossbow/polearm master, depending on range or melee focus. Later on they'd have both.

so the castery types will likely do maybe one or two strong attacks (scorching ray, shatter, etc) and then will be on cantrips. Probably a d8 or d10 cantrip, but of course there would be outliers.

So first three rounds of combat would be something like shatter/scorching ray twice, so give or take 45 damage from the two casters depending on how many hits, then the martials together could get around 16, again depending on hits. Past that the casters will probably be doing about 7 between the two with cantrips, somewhere in between for their cantrips.

those numbers assume hits on 6 on the d20, so AC would be pretty low, damage for the martials in that case is about the same with one guy on GWM as it is for the same guy to be on PAM instead. If both are on one or the other of those feats, it'd be more like 20, and of course a bless or something like that thrown in is going to boost that to around 30.

So a nova round might be something like 70-80 damage, and after that a good steady 25-35ish, but of course there's some wide variance that can occur. A nova round might be as much as 120 or as little as flat nothing.

that's all pretty rough math though, so take with a grain of salt.

[Kryx]

those numbers assume hits on 6 on the d20, so AC would be pretty low
Not sure what numbers you're talking about, but mine assume either a 7 or 8 is needed to hit (60-65% hit chance). This is based on PCs starting with 16 in their main stat and using average monster AC from all the monsters (around 600). The DMG AC recommendation actually matches up with those averages as well.

[Foxhound438]

Not sure what numbers you're talking about, but mine assume either a 7 or 8 is needed to hit (60-65% hit chance). This is based on PCs starting with 16 in their main stat and using average monster AC from all the monsters (around 600). The DMG AC recommendation actually matches up with those averages as well.

the amount of damage i was citing, and I chose "hit on a 6" specifically to make the math a bit easier. As I said, rough math was used there, for example I also neglected to account for crit damage. Again, simply to make the math easier. I really wasn't worried about getting it exact, since the OP's premise is a "general party", not anything specific.