[3.PF] How can a level 20 wizard protect the oceans?

[The Vagabond]

You are a level 20 Gestalt Wizard. You are called and bound by an unknown, eldritch force beyond your strength. You are called to modern day earth to serve as the guardian of the oceans. You are given three goals:

Protect the Oceans.
Protect the animals of the ocean, from the plankton to the whales.
You may make deals with the humans, ignoring the previous rules, as long as the result is a healthy ocean.
You may not destroy humanity or everything but the ocean.
If you do not perform well at these tasks, you cease to exist. Everything about you is no longer extant. You don't just die, you never were, you are so nonexistent that the concept of your name no longer exists on the planet.


With that said, you must improve the oceans back to their pre-industrial era self, where physically possible. Presume no infinite loops, but anything else really is fair game. What's the least-cheesiest method you could safely secure the worlds oceans.
Presume 25 PF point buy, pathfinder WBL, all official WOTC books, and all Pathfinder Paizo materials. No Wish or derivatives. No Golems or Simulacrum. How does he do it?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Use tongues for every language on Earth. Buff the crap out of your Diplomacy skill so you can hit a DC high enough to make anyone listening to you fanatic. Convince every television and radio station to allow you to broadcast an impassioned plea to save the environment; this includes everything from switching over to sustainable fishing practices to stopping poaching to a major recycling drive for every substance that isn't thoroughly biodegradeable to destroying all GMO foods to growing everything organically to restructuring cities so they have lots of green growing things to clean renewable energy sources to killing off the pharmaceutical industry by teaching doctors how to cure people rather than just teaching them how to drug them. Follow it up with impassioned pleas for better education, raising up 3rd world countries, beating back the Sahara Desert, wiping out zealots who push ignorance in education, killing off greed as a reason to keep medical and technological advancement stagnant, and so on.

Basically, convince the world to make itself into a true natural and technological utopia.

[HolyDraconus]

Turn a human into a wight.... what? I didn't kill them.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Turn a human into a wight.... what? I didn't kill them.You actually did. Undead ARE dead -- just reanimated.

Plus, if you let it free, the entire world would be overrun before long; note that even animals can be wighted, meaning that as soon as one oceanic animal is wightified, the whole ocean is doomed.

Congrats, son. You just fudged everything up.

[HolyDraconus]

You actually did. Undead ARE dead -- just reanimated.

Plus, if you let it free, the entire world would be overrun before long; note that even animals can be wighted, meaning that as soon as one oceanic animal is wightified, the whole ocean is doomed.

Congrats, son. You just fudged everything up.
Nope. I didn't kill a single person. Just let nature run its course. And as a level 20 GESTALT char, I'm fairly certain that I can sanctuary the beaches, which isn't everything, just a super small amount of land mass. Wight then goes on to hug humans, beaches arent big enough area wise to be considered everything and for lull I could even pllay good wizard and make something akin to bugbears but wight killers out of sharks. I will call them..... litesharks.

[Harmelyo]

-Open a gate to the elemental plane of water should help getting the ocean back in shape.
-Get a few kraken in to take care of fishing boats. They may eat a few of the bigger fishes but on the long run they will cause less damages than the humans.
-?
- profit!

[Demidos]

Gate in about 20 solars. No need to chain gate unless you want to, since you'll still be level 19 after doing so, and really, after level 17 gestalt how much more power do you really need?

Give the solars free rein to create a utopia on earth both as their task and reward. Make sure to specify they should save the oceans.

Relax in your comfy chair.

0 abuse of rules included.

[AvatarVecna]

Be an Illumian with the Str for bonus spells thing. Use Incantatrix+Arcane Thesis to get Rapid/Extend/Twin/Repeat/Chain Spell on Geas. TTT to any point BCE, use Limited Wish to replicate Extended Consumptive Field with Reserves of Strength, kill a wasp swarm, then use another Limited Wish to do the same thing with your new CL before killing another Wasp Swarm. You now have 33 hours to cast Geas spells with all the aforementioned attached metamagic feats; you get up to 5000 such spells per day with your current Str, and each spell puts a Geas (don't **** with the sea) on up to 84 people for the next 50 years. Repeat this process until everyone on Earth is Geas'd in this manner (note: in 0 CE, this might take a decade given both the number of people involved as well as how likely they are to all be in neat little 84 person groups). Once your task is complete, come out to the world as the deity of the ocean, and form a religion around not ****ing with the sea, lest the sea **** with you back. Make sure to take a hard line with anybody who gives you lip. Seal yourself away in a private demiplane and use divinations to hear every prayer made to you; use TTT to go back and answer those prayers, making sure that the TTT clone never goes to the private demiplane, lest you have to fight yourself. Make sure to have some method of achieving immortality, and you'll be fine. Use TTT clones to arrange and hold a massive religious gathering at least once a year, where those not yet touched by the Sea Deity can receive their blessing (a Geas to not **** with the sea) as a group.

By present day, hundreds of generations worth of stories of the Sea Deity smiting down sea-****ers, blessing every new year of babies, and answering prayers will have made messing with the sea completely unthinkable for the entire world's population. Even if you stop doing all these things, it'll take another 50 years before they can even think of messing with the sea, another few centuries for the social stigma against doing so to fade away, and another few millennia for even the idea of a sea deity to fade away...but that's only if you stop, which you have no reason to. We can get into a philosophical debate over whether completely changing humanity's history for your own purposes counts as destroying it, but nevertheless the sea is safe.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Nope. I didn't kill a single person. Just let nature run its course. And as a level 20 GESTALT char, I'm fairly certain that I can sanctuary the beaches, which isn't everything, just a super small amount of land mass.Wight pets seabird. Seabird becomes seabird wight. Seabird wight flies over the beach. Shark tries to eat seabird wight. Shark becomes shark wight. Shark wight infects ocean.

FAIL.

You would also need to ward practically every single cubic foot of river, stream, and lake on the planet, since most of those have some way to reach the ocean. Oh, and the underground water sources, too.

[edit] Oh, and don't forget that overfishing and poaching whales and stuff aren't the only ways to ruin the ocean. The worst bits are A.) noise pollution messing with sea animals, B.) runoff from farms and industrial areas leeching into rivers and flowing into the sea, and C.) non-biodegradable garbage forming the great ocean garbage patches. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_garbage_patch) Of course, over-hunting, over-fishing, blowing up coral reefs, and such are all major concerns, as well. You have to attack all of these effectively for all of this to do any good. Widespread diplomancy is the only way I can think of for making this work, unless you get rid of humanity somehow (without destroying everything else in the process) and then personally clean the oceans out.

[khadgar567]

Power word kill on my self and forgo the save= win

[HolyDraconus]

Wight pets seabird. Seabird becomes seabird wight. Seabird wight flies over the beach. Shark tries to eat seabird wight. Shark becomes shark wight. Shark wight infects ocean.

FAIL.

You would also need to ward practically every single cubic foot of river, stream, and lake on the planet, since most of those have some way to reach the ocean. Oh, and the underground water sources, too.

[edit] Oh, and don't forget that overfishing and poaching whales and stuff aren't the only ways to ruin the ocean. The worst bits are A.) noise pollution messing with sea animals, B.) runoff from farms and industrial areas leeching into rivers and flowing into the sea, and C.) non-biodegradable garbage forming the great ocean garbage patches. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_garbage_patch) Of course, over-hunting, over-fishing, blowing up coral reefs, and such are all major concerns, as well. You have to attack all of these effectively for all of this to do any good. Widespread diplomancy is the only way I can think of for making this work, unless you get rid of humanity somehow (without destroying everything else in the process) and then personally clean the oceans out.

Name a bird that lives in the ocean. Just one. Two, the sharks were specially modified to fight wights. I stated that earlier. It wouldn't fail. Three, humans would be gone, so pollution, noise or otherwise, and poaching, would also be gone. And four, wights only spawn from humanoids. Since when is a shark or a seagull (sea gulls don't nest in water I'm afraid so that isn't an answer to my earlier question) a humanoid? I can wight for your answer.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Name a bird that lives in the ocean. Just one.
...

Seagull?

[HolyDraconus]

...

Seagull?

Sea is not ocean. Cute tho

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Name a bird that lives in the ocean. Just one.I'll go you several better. Seagulls, albatrosses, penguins of all kinds, and puffins.


Two, the sharks were specially modified to fight wights. I stated that earlier. It wouldn't fail.How about all the other sea life that birds eat and that eat birds? Fish, starfish, squid, sealions, orcas, jellyfish, anemones, krill, and more.


Three, humans would be gone, so pollution, noise or otherwise, and poaching, would also be gone.And in their place, the entire ocean will soon be undead. Congrats for that.


And four, wights only spawn from humanoids. Since when is a shark or a seagull (sea gulls don't nest in water I'm afraid so that isn't an answer to my earlier question) a humanoid? I can wight for your answer.I see no restrictions on the wight to say that only humanoids are wights. The example picture is a humanoid, that is all. Plus, even disregarding that, there is the monstrous wight template, which is what happens when a wight or a montrous wight attacks a non-humanoid. That includes animals.

So yes, you just killed the entire planet. Thanks.


Sea is not ocean. Cute thoMight wanna check that again. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sea

[Elricaltovilla]

Sea is not ocean. Cute tho

This is a joke, right?

Anyway, have a whole list (http://www.oceanwanderers.com/Seabird.Home.html).

[Takewo]

Wait, are we talking about birds that live in the ocean as in inside the ocean, that is underwater? Or about birds that live at sea?

Moreover, is it about birds that feed on fish but actually nest on dry land or about birds that nest on water?

Because the answer to that question can change a lot depending on what you actually mean.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Wait, are we talking about birds that live in the ocean as in inside the ocean, that is underwater? Or about birds that live at sea?

Moreover, is it about birds that feed on fish but actually nest on dry land or about birds that nest on water?

Because the answer to that question can change a lot depending on what you actually mean.There are quite a few birds that spend a lot of time on and under the water.

As for which ones will affect the scenario, it's any bird that can be turned into a wight and then potentially wightify an underwater creature. So, all seabirds, basically.

[khadgar567]

This is a joke, right?

Anyway, have a whole list (http://www.oceanwanderers.com/Seabird.Home.html).
you now what take druid on other side and use infinite solar trick to awaken every sea animal and tell them bicker like married couple when they caught by fishers and watch the horror and psychological warfare ( about a few years they stop hunting and leave the oceans free)

[Takewo]

As for which ones will affect the scenario, it's any bird that can be turned into a wight and then potentially wightify an underwater creature. So, all seabirds, basically.

Oh, I see.


I see no restrictions on the wight to say that only humanoids are wights. The example picture is a humanoid, that is all. Plus, even disregarding that, there is the monstrous wight template, which is what happens when a wight or a montrous wight attacks a non-humanoid. That includes animals.

I'm away from the Monster Manual right now, so this might be entirely inaccurate, but the srd does say that a Wight's ability to create spawns works only on humanoids (link here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wight.htm)), and therefore, making a wight of a human would not endanger any sea spices in any way, unless there be any humanois living in the ocean.

[ExLibrisMortis]

you now what take druid on other side and use infinite solar trick to awaken every sea animal and tell them bicker like married couple when they caught by fishers and watch the horror and psychological warfare ( about a few years they stop hunting and leave the oceans free)
That's actually brilliant. Just awaken enough sea life, and you're good. Start with the largest and most iconic (blue whales, orcas, polar bears), then move on to tuna and so on. I'm reasonably certain that the capture and slaughter of known-to-be-sentient life would quickly be outlawed internationally, if it isn't already illegal under current laws. After that, you have whole bunches of stakeholders (and potential researchers, when it comes to measuring water quality), so clean oceans becomes a lot more important. Not to mention that intelligent blue whales can probably exert political pressure by blocking shipping routes, especially if you equip them with magic items.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm away from the Monster Manual right now, so this might be entirely inaccurate, but the srd does say that a Wight's ability to create spawns works only on humanoids (link here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wight.htm)), and therefore, making a wight of a human would not endanger any sea spices in any way, unless there be any humanois living in the ocean.There's still the monstrous wight template, however, which works with any negative levels, and would come from being touched by an angel a wight.

[HolyDraconus]

I'll go you several better. Seagulls, albatrosses, penguins of all kinds, and puffins.

How about all the other sea life that birds eat and that eat birds? Fish, starfish, squid, sealions, orcas, jellyfish, anemones, krill, and more.

And in their place, the entire ocean will soon be undead. Congrats for that.

I see no restrictions on the wight to say that only humanoids are wights. The example picture is a humanoid, that is all. Plus, even disregarding that, there is the monstrous wight template, which is what happens when a wight or a montrous wight attacks a non-humanoid. That includes animals.

So yes, you just killed the entire planet. Thanks.

Might wanna check that again. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/seaNone of those live IN the OCEAN. Nice try though. And source for "montrous wight" please. Cause currently, wights ARE restricted to humanoids only. Oh and I said

Name a bird that lives in the ocean. Just one. So naming coastal, tropical and ARTIC ( close though) isn't naming a bird that lives, grows and dies, in the ocean. So yeah... source please on that montrous wight.


This is a joke, right?

Anyway, have a whole list (http://www.oceanwanderers.com/Seabird.Home.html).
I answered you when responding to someone else.

Wait, are we talking about birds that live in the ocean as in inside the ocean, that is underwater? Or about birds that live at sea?

Moreover, is it about birds that feed on fish but actually nest on dry land or about birds that nest on water?

Because the answer to that question can change a lot depending on what you actually mean.This guy caught it fast.


There are quite a few birds that spend a lot of time on and under the water.

As for which ones will affect the scenario, it's any bird that can be turned into a wight and then potentially wightify an underwater creature. So, all seabirds, basically. No bird in our world can be wightafied, since none are humanoid.


you now what take druid on other side and use infinite solar trick to awaken every sea animal and tell them bicker like married couple when they caught by fishers and watch the horror and psychological warfare ( about a few years they stop hunting and leave the oceans free)It's hilarious yet works as well. You all pro life here and I'm trying to end it. We won't get along. lol:smalltongue:


Oh, I see.



I'm away from the Monster Manual right now, so this might be entirely inaccurate, but the srd does say that a Wight's ability to create spawns works only on humanoids (link here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wight.htm)), and therefore, making a wight of a human would not endanger any sea spices in any way, unless there be any humanois living in the ocean. Correct.


That's actually brilliant. Just awaken enough sea life, and you're good. Start with the largest and most iconic (blue whales, orcas, polar bears), then move on to tuna and so on. I'm reasonably certain that the capture and slaughter of known-to-be-sentient life would quickly be outlawed internationally, if it isn't already illegal under current laws. After that, you have whole bunches of stakeholders (and potential researchers, when it comes to measuring water quality), so clean oceans becomes a lot more important. Not to mention that intelligent blue whales can probably exert political pressure by blocking shipping routes, especially if you equip them with magic items. Ain't it?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

None of those live IN the OCEAN. Nice try though....Why does that matter at all for this? And yes, penguins do. They spend most of their time there, outside of breeding season. Some don't see the shore for months at a time.


And source for "montrous wight" please.I could've sworn monstrous wight was in either the MM 2 or Savage Species, but I can't find it in either place.


Cause currently, wights ARE restricted to humanoids only.Nope. Any creatures killed with negative levels become wights. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels Even animals. So, despite "create spawn" only working on humanoids, the negative levels still create wights. They just aren't under the elder wight's control.


So naming coastal, tropical and ARTIC ( close though) isn't naming a bird that lives, grows and dies, in the ocean.You're splitting hairs unnecessarily. Any bird that feeds from the ocean, or from any water source that is at all connected to the ocean (even several levels removed) is a major threat. And that's practically all of them. Just one fish or crawdad or planarian or leech that is touched by a wight and not immediately eaten will gain a negative level, thereby killing it and turning it into an uncontrolled wight. And that wight will then start killing other things, and the infection will spread until it affects something in the ocean, whereupon the infection will spread there, too. And that's assuming a seagull or sealion or walrus or something else that's semiaquatic doesn't get turned first. Remember, infectious undead plagues like this spread exponentiallly. One turns a second, those two turn two more, those four turn four more, those eight turn eight more, and so on.


No bird in our world can be wightafied, since none are humanoid.Again, doesn't matter.


It's hilarious yet works as well. You all pro life here and I'm trying to end it. We won't get along. lol:smalltongue:You're ending ALL life. Definitely won't succed at the challenge at hand.

[Gildedragon]

I like the druid Awaken the animals route but I'd go a couple further... And do it artificerlike
Construct stakes or devices of Plant Growth to reduce the use of fertilizers
Design a sort of "engine" that uses no fuel and makes boats hover over the water... Not sure what spells there, maybe fly? Floating disk?

[Gnaeus]

If your country does not stop polluting the oceans, I will kill the president and half the legislature chosen at random. If your company does not stop polluting the ocean, I will kill the CEO and half the board at random. Make a few examples. Watch humanity's leaders scramble to improve the environment. They only need good motivation.

There are multiple ways to kill any known human on the planet with 4-6th level spells. Lowest op is probably to walk into their HQ invisibly, magic missile them, then DDoor out, become invisible again, and overland flight away. But you could do it with lesser planar binding, dream sendings, scrying tricks, dominates, lots of ways.

Heck, as a wizard 20//x 20 lowest op way would be to do it without spells. 20 ranks in stealth, perception, acrobatics, bluff, diplomacy, know: economics, disable device, disguise. +10 BAB. Probably around 100 HP. Godlike Int and generally superhuman stats. You should be able to kill any human target with your +5 quarterstaff and a hat of disguise. You are basically Mystique on steroids. Gestalt with commoner for lols and endless chickens.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Dragon #300 has the wight template:


Creating a Wight
"Wight" is a template that can be added to any corporeal creature except constructs, oozes, and undead, referred to hereafter as the "base creature"). Creatures with this template have their type changed to "undead" It uses all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

[Ahus]

Over the course of a month or two any Wizard, who didn't ban Enchantment or Conjuration, level 11 or more can Geas/ Teleport his way to puppet governments in all of the UN Member Nations.

Add in a continuous pin of Geas that targets anyone touched by the wearer given to one or more prominent international politicians,that you already control, whom then go around shaking hands and patting people on the back. Total world domination would take ~1400 years divided by the number of rings but not everyone need no enslaved only those in charge of industry and government, while we are at it hit the pope, and a few other religious leaders as well. The entire US congress could be done in a little over an hour, then it's just maintaining the effects through attrition, and hitting anyone lobbying against the new status quo.

Then break out some planar bound elementals for garbage removal / incineration, electricity generation, etc.

[Der_DWSage]

And in their place, the entire ocean will soon be undead. Congrats for that.

Safely undead!

In all seriousness, I'd definitely include a Water Weird to consult via summoning rituals. A quick 'will these actions be harmful to the oceans?' to fact check anything I do before I go off. Aside from that, I've always been a fan of 'teach a man to fish.' (Or would that be 'teach a fish to man' here?) As has already been brought up, I'd probably just set up a network of awakened animals, do my best to keep them from going evil, and let them police their own section of the waters.

After that's properly set up, possibly with a communication network so they can call for backup against things they can't handle, I spend half of my unnaturally long existence sipping mimosas on the beaches, and doing what I can against the pesky wight invasion that seems to be going on.

[Honest Tiefling]

How the crap am I supposed to protect ocean life when it's trying to eat each other near constantly!?

Anyway, I think my vote would be to awaken the dolphins. You know, the smart ocean going creatures that will genocide other species and um...Do other things? The one that feels compelled to protect pregnant members (and occasionally humans) from males? Yeah. Have fun, humanity! Not my fault the dolphins did that.

I wonder how an awakened dolphin would feel about using necromancy...

[HolyDraconus]

Dragon #300 has the wight template:
Splitting hairs? Im all about the ocean. So duh. Anyway, no, that still doesnt change a turtle into a wight. No source yet that states a wight can change a fish into a wight. And character in srd is referred to humanoids. I am holding out hope that you can find it. If we was using pathfinder, sure. You got me. But i meant 3.5.

[Honest Tiefling]

Actually...What prevents the wizard from transforming everyone into sea life? Humanity is not destroyed, just transformed, and changed. And you get to restore things to pre-indrustrial levels pretty fast, what with all of the added fish.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Splitting hairs? Im all about the ocean. So duh. Anyway, no, that still doesnt change a turtle into a wight. No source yet that states a wight can change a fish into a wight. And character in srd is referred to humanoids. I am holding out hope that you can find it. If we was using pathfinder, sure. You got me. But i meant 3.5.You're saying that, since no birds spend the bulks of their lives in the ocean (which is wrong, by the way), it's impossible to infect the sea with wightism (which is entirely wrong, as well).

A "character" is clearly defined as: "A fictional individual within the confines of a fantasy game setting. The words 'character' and 'creature' are often used synonymously within these rules, since almost any creature could be a character within the game, and every character is a creature (as opposed to an object)." Since animals fit this definition, they count as "fictional individuals within the confines of a fantasy game setting." They may be NPCs, but that just means they're non-player characters.

And yes, that template is fully applicable to animals, because they fit within the template's purview. Enough negative levels to kill an animal turn it into a wight, as per the rules I linked to you earlier.

[Gallowglass]

You guys are all so quick to get to the murder.

You are a high level wizard, you don't need to kill a single human. You don't need to force humanity to alter their destructive ways by force. You don't need them to change their ways at all. You can just clean up their messes for them.

build repeating traps of purify water and dump them into the sea to clean up the mess that is already there.
provide repeating traps of disintegrate to every polluting company. If they are cheaper and easier than dumping, the companies will use them to maximize profit.
build demiplanes to dump the things that won't disintegrate. When the demi-planes are full close off the entrances, open up another entrance to the plane of fire and expunge it.
You want to stop overfishing? build repeating traps to create fish for food distributors. If you provide it faster and cheaper than the fishing industry you will drive the fishing industry out of business.
You want to stop whaling? Do the same thing. Again, if you provide the thing that is wanted cheaper and easier you will naturally eliminate the industry you want to eliminate.
Set up magical breeding farms to restore sea life without the inherent problems of domesticating wild animals.

Help humanity reestablish their space program. Terra-form mars for them so they have room to expand.
Instead of trying to force behavior through terror and demonstrations of power, simply become the provider for what they are needing to change their industries.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You guys are all so quick to get to the murder. I suggested diplomancy to turn the world into an ecological and technological paradise.


You are a high level wizard, you don't need to kill a single human. You don't need to force humanity to alter their destructive ways by force. You don't need them to change their ways at all. You can just clean up their messes for them.Make them clean up their own messes.


build repeating traps of purify water and dump them into the sea to clean up the mess that is already there.The ocean is made of salt water, not fresh, drinkable water. Purifying the sea as you suggest would kill everything in it.


provide repeating traps of disintegrate to every polluting company. If they are cheaper and easier than dumping, the companies will use them to maximize profit.This has issues in the long run. Continually deleting matter from existence means that eventually, the matter runs out. Recycling is a much better long-term plan.


build demiplanes to dump the things that won't disintegrate. When the demi-planes are full close off the entrances, open up another entrance to the plane of fire and expunge it.This runs into the same long-term problems as disintegrate.


You want to stop overfishing? build repeating traps to create fish for food distributors. If you provide it faster and cheaper than the fishing industry you will drive the fishing industry out of business.This works better, though it would put a lot of people out of work. You'd have to spread the post-scarcity economy much farther than that to ensure that everyone can eat and live decently well.


You want to stop whaling? Do the same thing. Again, if you provide the thing that is wanted cheaper and easier you will naturally eliminate the industry you want to eliminate.Stopping whaling is great, but you still have to deal with people who kill whales because they think certain parts have "magical properties." Does your substitute have the same magical properties? No? Well then. ...What do you mean, there are no magical properties in ambergris? Can you prove it doesn't? Yes, you can prove a negative, and no, I have no idea what a logical phallusy is, you pervert.

In short, stupid people do stupid things, though that part of your plan will help in some areas. You also need to take care of chemical pollutants and noise pollution, as well.


Set up magical breeding farms to restore sea life without the inherent problems of domesticating wild animals.You'd have to be extremely careful to release everything in the right places at the right times in the right quantities, but this might help.


Help humanity reestablish their space program. Terra-form mars for them so they have room to expand.Could help. Just try to preempt problems before they start -- I'm sure there will be a lot of unxpected ones.


Instead of trying to force behavior through terror and demonstrations of power, simply become the provider for what they are needing to change their industries.Definitely better than setting wights loose, that's for sure.

[HolyDraconus]

You're saying that, since no birds spend the bulks of their lives in the ocean (which is wrong, by the way), it's impossible to infect the sea with wightism (which is entirely wrong, as well).

A "character" is clearly defined as: "A fictional individual within the confines of a fantasy game setting. The words 'character' and 'creature' are often used synonymously within these rules, since almost any creature could be a character within the game, and every character is a creature (as opposed to an object)." Since animals fit this definition, they count as "fictional individuals within the confines of a fantasy game setting." They may be NPCs, but that just means they're non-player characters.

And yes, that template is fully applicable to animals, because they fit within the template's purview. Enough negative levels to kill an animal turn it into a wight, as per the rules I linked to you earlier.

Nothing in what you linked overrides the fact that wIghts can only create spawn from humanoids. It's there.

[AvatarVecna]

You guys are all so quick to get to the murder.

I just completely altered the way the world's society views the ocean. Others have done similarly. It's only the Wightpocaplyse dude that's involving murder.


Nothing in what you linked overrides the fact that wIghts can only create spawn from humanoids. It's there.

When a Wight makes contact with a creature, it gives them negative levels, regardless of their creature type. According to the rules on how negative levels work (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) , if you gain a number of negative levels equal to your Hit Dice, you are instantly slain...and you either rise as the kind of creature that gave you the negative levels, or as a Wight.

You are absolutely, positively correct that a Wight's "Create Spawn" cannot under any circumstances turn anything other than a humanoid into a Wight. However, this ability is not the only way to become a Wight; gaining negative levels turns you into a Wight no matter what your creature type is.

[Endarire]

Define 'protect the oceans.'

Really.

Once we have a solid definition, we can work cohesively toward it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Nothing in what you linked overrides the fact that wIghts can only create spawn from humanoids. It's there.The create spawn doesn't do it. The negative levels do that, as I've said before. Multiple times. That you obviously didn't pay attention to.

[GnomishPride]

1) Open portals to the plane of water at the bottoms of oceans (lots and lots of them)
2) Let everything in the oceans drain away (http://what-if.xkcd.com/53/)
3) Create "Create Fish" traps to feed people
4) Replace the oceans using lots and lots of "Create Water" traps to ensure the environment remains kinda stable
5)...
6) Profit!

[Darkweave31]

Subjugate humanity to your will with arcane might, get creative with it, have fun. Maybe it looks something like ghostform/superior invisibility for stealth and mindrape world leaders to be more in line with your priorities. Mass suggestion on legislative bodies to sway votes that are relevant to the ocean. Put some suggestion traps in and around major population centers and commuter routes. Force humans to clean up their mess. Make ample use of divination spells to identify influential individuals and ensure you're taking the right courses of action for the ocean. If all else fails cloudkill chemtrails.

[flamewolf393]

Use the stupidly powerful locate city bomb combo, but tailor it so it only affects humans. You have just saved the entire planet, not just the oceans. With a level 1 spell.

I once figured out how to make it affect an infinite range (i dont remember how, so dont ask but it took epic spell levels), and make the effect interplanar. It affected all of the omniverse out to infinity. Wipe every human from existence everywhere.

[icefractal]

This one is pretty easy I think - certainly doesn't need any infinite tricks or the like. One possible approach:

Step 1: Take Over the World
This is one of the easier steps, I think. You can be invisible and ethereal. You can mind control world leaders. You can use divination to predict which plans will work. And nobody else knows that magic is even possible, much less how to defend against it. With the amazing social skills possible at 20th level, you can probably become the official and accepted leader of the world, or stay in the shadows and rule through puppets. Having this sorted out will make all the subsequent steps easier.

Step 2: Prioritize the Oceans
Since you control the world, this is just a matter of telling people to do it, and (potentially) finding and stopping anyone who's preventing it. Again, divinations are a huge advantage here.

Step 3: Improve Things
If it turns out that the ecology focus you established is difficult to maintain because of various shortages or crises, you can just improve things in general to help with that. A few hours spent on divinations a day can generate massive advances. And the ability to invisibly remove or control people makes dealing with opposition a lot easier.

[trikkydik]

Anyway, I think my vote would be to awaken the dolphins. You know, the smart ocean going creatures that will genocide other species and um...Do other things? The one that feels compelled to protect pregnant members (and occasionally humans) from males? Yeah. Have fun, humanity! Not my fault the dolphins did that.

I wonder how an awakened dolphin would feel about using necromancy...

Male Dolphins actually rape and gang rape female Dolphins. They're not as majestic as you think. They're savages like all other creatures on earth.

To cancel the effects of pollution one would need to eliminate the cause - humans.

They're mutually exclusive. Humans breathe in oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide. Which is a green house gas. Carbon is then absorbed by the ocean, which causes global temperatures to rise AND the oceans to become acidic.

The earth isn't big enough for 7 billion people. The only solution is to control the population of humans. How do you do that? Introduce a new predatory species that feeds on humans.

That is the only way to stop global pollution and global warming.

To curb the existing effect? The earth needs to evacuate all of its carbon gases and gain more oxygen. Since algae feeds on acidic/carbonic environments, removing carbon will get rid of algae and bacteria growth.


If I was a Lvl20 gestalted wizard I would spend my life making a comet in space and work on crashing it into the earth. comets are supposed to bring vital materials to a planet. Thus preserving its existence with replenishment.

Recap:
1.) control human population
2.) lower carbon content in atmosphere
3.) replenish the earths depleted resources.

It's the only solution in which after the wizard dies, his legacy will live the longest.


Having said all that. Every planet eventually dies out. It's a matter of time. Maybe relocation is the best option here.

[dascarletm]

The best solution is to use your magic to make the planet a post-scarcity society a la Star Trek. Then you start conforming and conditioning each generation until everything is hunky-dory.

I mean yeesh! Why is it that everyone's knee-jerk reaction is "kill everyone." That's far too... simple. You have magic for crying-out-loud! Show some initiative!

[Elricaltovilla]

Male Dolphins actually rape and gang rape female Dolphins. They're not as majestic as you think. They're savages like all other creatures on earth.

To cancel the effects of pollution one would need to eliminate the cause - humans.

They're mutually exclusive. Humans breathe in oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide. Which is a green house gas. Carbon is then absorbed by the ocean, which causes global temperatures to rise AND the oceans to become acidic.

The earth isn't big enough for 7 billion people. The only solution is to control the population of humans. How do you do that? Introduce a new predatory species that feeds on humans.

That is the only way to stop global pollution and global warming.

To curb the existing effect? The earth needs to evacuate all of its carbon gases and gain more oxygen. Since algae feeds on acidic/carbonic environments, removing carbon will get rid of algae and bacteria growth.


If I was a Lvl20 gestalted wizard I would spend my life making a comet in space and work on crashing it into the earth. comets are supposed to bring vital materials to a planet. Thus preserving its existence with replenishment.

Recap:
1.) control human population
2.) lower carbon content in atmosphere
3.) replenish the earths depleted resources.

It's the only solution in which after the wizard dies, his legacy will live the longest.


Having said all that. Every planet eventually dies out. It's a matter of time. Maybe relocation is the best option here.

Yeah, no. With the ability to craft repeating traps of create food/water, open gates to the elemental plane of Fire for infinite clean energy, repeating traps of genesis to create demiplanes filled with whatever raw materials you need, and Wish or other spells to get around whatever issues that crop up a 20th level wizard (much less gestalt) has myriad ways to remove any problems currently facing the world's population. The entire 7 billion people on earth could very comfortably fit in the 48 contiguous United States, hell they could probably fit just fine in only one of those states. And even if that wasn't the case, the wizard can just create more space.

That and in PF 20th level wizards are just straight up immortal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-discoveries/arcane-discoveries-paizo/immortality), and you can be pretty immortal even without that thanks to having an entire other side of your Gestalt to devote to templates that would normally suck, like Lichdom.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The best solution is to use your magic to make the planet a post-scarcity society a la Star Trek. Then you start conforming and conditioning each generation until everything is hunky-dory.

I mean yeesh! Why is it that everyone's knee-jerk reaction is "kill everyone." That's far too... simple. You have magic for crying-out-loud! Show some initiative!This, yes. I'd couple my suggestion for Diplomancy with major birth-control initiatives, as well as the possibility of terraforming and colonization of other (currently lifeless) worlds. Turn Earth into a paradise and start shunting additional bodies elsewhere so that overpopulation isn't a problem. And since the terraformed worlds didn't have biomes to start with, you can't ruin the ones they didn't have.

No one dies, suffering (both human and nonhuman) is curtailed, and everyone's happy. Except the pharmaceutical and oil companies. They're not gonna be happy at all.

[Elricaltovilla]

I reiterate, there's no need to control the earth's population when you can just make more earth. Or send people off elsewhere. It's completely doable as a 20th level wizard.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The best solution is to use your magic to make the planet a post-scarcity society a la Star Trek. Then you start conforming and conditioning each generation until everything is hunky-dory.

I mean yeesh! Why is it that everyone's knee-jerk reaction is "kill everyone." That's far too... simple. You have magic for crying-out-loud! Show some initiative!

If you go that way start with the conditioning first. Humans are *******s. Even post-scarcity they'll still be *******s and pollute the environment just because they're too lazy to do it differently.

Enchantment spells on politicians and CEOs on the other hand should take care of most of the problems with the least effort on your part.
Then you can relax while your pawns do the work and actually enjoy your magic powers, only stepping in when you need to correct for something.

I'm a wizard, not a janitor. I'm not spending a few centuries cleaning up humanities messes when i can spend a few months getting useless wastes of oxygen like politicians to do it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I reiterate, there's no need to control the earth's population when you can just make more earth. Or send people off elsewhere. It's completely doable as a 20th level wizard.If that was towards my comment, Diplomacy isn't making anyone do anything. It's convincing them that what you're saying is a good idea through force of personality and knowing how to sway people.

As was said, people are frequently lazy and too wrapped up in their own affairs to bother looking at important things, because the big picture is just too big, and it's hard for one person to see how he can make a difference. But convincing everyone on Earth to work together to make things better, with every country on Earth's resources and intelligent minds and public opinion behind them? That's a recipe for a quick change for the better.

Yes, moving people to other places is great, because it reduces ecological strain. But it won't take long for a million people to become two million to become ten million to become fifty million, and since nobody really has any more reason to think they should change than people do now, you have the exact same problem before long.

My way fixes things. Yours doesn't; instead, it just puts the problem off until later.

[Elricaltovilla]

If that was towards my comment, Diplomacy isn't making anyone do anything. It's convincing them that what you're saying is a good idea through force of personality and knowing how to sway people.

As was said, people are frequently lazy and too wrapped up in their own affairs to bother looking at important things, because the big picture is just too big, and it's hard for one person to see how he can make a difference. But convincing everyone on Earth to work together to make things better, with every country on Earth's resources and intelligent minds and public opinion behind them? That's a recipe for a quick change for the better.

Yes, moving people to other places is great, because it reduces ecological strain. But it won't take long for a million people to become two million to become ten million to become fifty million, and since nobody really has any more reason to think they should change than people do now, you have the exact same problem before long.

My way fixes things. Yours doesn't; instead, it just puts the problem off until later.

Moving people elsewhere does solve the problem. The problem is "How does a 20th level gestalt wizard protect the earth's oceans?" Any solution which results in humans no longer polluting the oceans is a win condition. It doesn't matter how many humans are left at the end of the scenario.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Moving people elsewhere does solve the problem. The problem is "How does a 20th level gestalt wizard protect the earth's oceans?" Any solution which results in humans no longer polluting the oceans is a win condition. It doesn't matter how many humans are left at the end of the scenario.It stops the problem from getting worse, but how does it fix the damage already done?

[the_archduke]

People are acting like politicians and CEOs are wizards that need to be co-opted. A couple of mindrapes and the problem is fixed. That is not going to work.

Assume every politician and CEO is forced to do as you want. The people and companies that want to do as they wish will simply elect new ones that will impose the old policies.

Only changing incentives will fix the problem. You either make pollution and overfishing too expensive, or you kill everyone. Making them too expensive can be done by upping the costs (RELEASE THE KRAKEN!) or reducing the reward (making a post-scarcity economy). Either would be trivial for a level 20 wizard.

Or you could mindrape/kill everyone. I fail to see how that would be less work.

[trikkydik]

People are acting like politicians and CEOs are wizards that need to be co-opted. A couple of mindrapes and the problem is fixed. That is not going to work.

Assume every politician and CEO is forced to do as you want. The people and companies that want to do as they wish will simply elect new ones that will impose the old policies.

Only changing incentives will fix the problem. You either make pollution and overfishing too expensive, or you kill everyone. Making them too expensive can be done by upping the costs (RELEASE THE KRAKEN!) or reducing the reward (making a post-scarcity economy). Either would be trivial for a level 20 wizard.

Or you could mindrape/kill everyone. I fail to see how that would be less work.

i agree with this, it would be pretty easy to dominate the world with magical powers. and mind control seems to be the best route, besides population control.

All in all, id say this thread has become a trolls chat.

That being said, i know more about everything than all of you combined, lol.

Suck on that one playground friends.

[the_archduke]

More on upping costs or reducing rewards.

All people act according to incentives. If you make something more rewarding, more people will do that thing. If you make it less rewarding, fewer people will do that thing.


So you want to stop overfishing and pollution. How do you (a level 20 wizard) change the incentives?

You could summon/bind/create guardians of the ocean. These guardians (outsiders/golems/THE KRAKEN) would be tasked with stopping those who polluted/overfished. If overfishing led to being eaten by the Kraken or bound with a Mark of Justice by an Archon, fewer people would try. If you make the penalty harsh enough, no one would try. This, however, is more trouble than it is worth. Heroes would arise to slay the Kraken or something similar. You would have to stick around to put down anyone who would upset your system.

Deceasing the incentives are the way to go. You could also decrease the incentives in a variety of ways. People don't overfish for fun. They don't pollute for fun. They do it because they make money at it. If fish was free (repeating traps of Major Creation/bound outsiders casting Heroes Feast/other magical solution) no one would bother fishing. If waste disposal was free (portal to the plane of fire/teleport circles/repeating trap of plane shift to some infinite plane of your choice) no one would bother polluting.

As a level 20 wizard take your pick of the ways already discussed to make a post-scarcity economy. If everyone is too busy enjoying all the free swag you gave them, they will have no need or desire to pollute or overfish. Elricaltovilla has it exactly right. Make more space, create a paradise, and no one will ever bother the oceans again.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

People are acting like politicians and CEOs are wizards that need to be co-opted. A couple of mindrapes and the problem is fixed. That is not going to work.

Assume every politician and CEO is forced to do as you want. The people and companies that want to do as they wish will simply elect new ones that will impose the old policies.

Only changing incentives will fix the problem. You either make pollution and overfishing too expensive, or you kill everyone. Making them too expensive can be done by upping the costs (RELEASE THE KRAKEN!) or reducing the reward (making a post-scarcity economy). Either would be trivial for a level 20 wizard.

Or you could mindrape/kill everyone. I fail to see how that would be less work.Which is why Diplomancy on international TV is the way to go. Everyone who sees it becomes fanatically devoted to the cause, and you make sure that everyone is exposed to it. Normally, you could only wax poetic to a couple thousand people at a time, max, but TV and radio are everywhere. You could easily hit millions at a time, and since it's recorded, it can be reused over and over again, saving you tons of spell slots. You go through the motions once, buffing yourself to the nines seven heavens, record it using modern day tech, and ask people to spread the word to their friends, until everyone is devoted to the cause. And it's not even mind-control. They're fully in control of their actions at all times. You've just convinced them that it's the best idea they've never had.

[Elricaltovilla]

It stops the problem from getting worse, but how does it fix the damage already done?

1. That isn't the question being asked. To whit:


You are a level 20 Gestalt Wizard. You are called and bound by an unknown, eldritch force beyond your strength. You are called to modern day earth to serve as the guardian of the oceans. You are given three goals:

Protect the Oceans.
Protect the animals of the ocean, from the plankton to the whales.
You may make deals with the humans, ignoring the previous rules, as long as the result is a healthy ocean.
You may not destroy humanity or everything but the ocean.
If you do not perform well at these tasks, you cease to exist. Everything about you is no longer extant. You don't just die, you never were, you are so nonexistent that the concept of your name no longer exists on the planet.


2. The best thing for the environment is to let it heal itself. Removing humanity from the environment means that the ecological pressure created by mankind is eliminated, and the physical systems already in place can continue their slow process of rebalancing to recover without being further damaged by human interference.

3. Turning the question back on you: How does reducing the human population actively purify the oceans?

4. Given that there are already significant ethical debates regarding the morality of birth control (both proactive and reactive), an equally effective solution that does not have to address a second moral/ethical debate is a more morally sound solution because it does not further restrict human freedoms (even if those freedoms are restricted voluntarily).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

3. Turning the question back on you: How does reducing the human population actively purify the oceans?Along with all of humanity coming together under the brightest minds in the world and actively working to fix what we broke? It does pretty damned well, I think.

[Elricaltovilla]

Along with all of humanity coming together under the brightest minds in the world and actively working to fix what we broke? It does pretty damned well, I think.

See, you're pairing your "reduce the world's population" with an entirely different step in your plan and treating that whole as being responsible for the supposed success of your plan when, in fact, you could do absolutely nothing about the breeding of the world population and still unite everyone under the same goal with all the brightest minds in the world leading the way and get the same end result.

So again, I ask, what does convincing people to not breed do to fix the oceans that moving people away from the oceans doesn't also do?

And that's not even getting into how the brightest minds in the world are still eminently fallible and capable of screwing up.

[ExLibrisMortis]

They're mutually exclusive. Humans breathe in oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide. Which is a green house gas. Carbon is then absorbed by the ocean, which causes global temperatures to rise AND the oceans to become acidic.
Human-caused biological waste is mostly in the form of the animals we breed. There are a lot more cows (http://xkcd.com/1338/) and such than humans, especially by weight and waste output. Even so, the CO2 output of living beings is automatically balanced by the food we eat: the plants we cultivate draw CO2 as they grow. Global warming and pollution are caused by fossil fuels being burned and great amounts of 'exotic'* chemicals being added to the environment, not animals breathing or living too much. Controlling the human population will do practically nothing to stop global warming by itself - it is only the accompanying reduction in industry that helps. Reducing the livestock population is probably quite effective when it comes to reducing excess manure and so on, so it's useful ecologically, but again not so much a global warming thing.


All of this is pretty much irrelevant, because, as Ericaltovilla rightly says, magic can fix all these things, practically for free, and without side effects (if we're accidentally playing Dark Sun, use psionics).

*'Not naturally present in these concentrations'. This includes fixed nitrogen from manure, for instance, even though it's naturally present pretty much everywhere.

[Sagetim]

You guys are all so quick to get to the murder.

You are a high level wizard, you don't need to kill a single human. You don't need to force humanity to alter their destructive ways by force. You don't need them to change their ways at all. You can just clean up their messes for them.

build repeating traps of purify water and dump them into the sea to clean up the mess that is already there.
provide repeating traps of disintegrate to every polluting company. If they are cheaper and easier than dumping, the companies will use them to maximize profit.
build demiplanes to dump the things that won't disintegrate. When the demi-planes are full close off the entrances, open up another entrance to the plane of fire and expunge it.
You want to stop overfishing? build repeating traps to create fish for food distributors. If you provide it faster and cheaper than the fishing industry you will drive the fishing industry out of business.
You want to stop whaling? Do the same thing. Again, if you provide the thing that is wanted cheaper and easier you will naturally eliminate the industry you want to eliminate.
Set up magical breeding farms to restore sea life without the inherent problems of domesticating wild animals.

Help humanity reestablish their space program. Terra-form mars for them so they have room to expand.
Instead of trying to force behavior through terror and demonstrations of power, simply become the provider for what they are needing to change their industries.

hehehe, I liked the part where you started dumping with impunity in the elemental plane of fire. Just..in the city of brass one day and suddenly the pompous and godlike efreeti lords get human trash and waste dumped on them from the sky. Setting aside the question of how improperly disposed of medications might interact with an Efreet biology (hm, magical wish granting powers on morphine, eh?) you're bound to really piss someone off like that.

Before I get into my actual answer I also wanted to point out that our energy needs would probably not be met by renewable energy alone. Get off fossil fuels? good plan. ignore nuclear and stop research into fusion to only focus on renewables? probably not going to work out for us. Similar goes for 'organic' growing processes. You're probably going to get a lot of starving people when the organic growing processes don't deliver as high an output of food or food like substances that can be eaten for nutritional value. This is where training druids/nature clerics could shore up the difference with Plant Growth, but you would probably be requiring a larger percentage of the population to swap into farming after over a century of moving away from exactly that.

Now, you said I can be a gestalt 20 wizard/ 20 whatever? I'd probably go 20 wizard/20 psion. 20 wizard/20 cleric could work too, but only if I am allowed to train others in my ways. Enough level 5 clerics with create food and water can shore up starvation in a lot of areas, and if people know it is a miraculous blessing based on faith-powers, it seems likely that in addition to a lot of people being angry/offended about any claims to that effect having evidence of working, there would also be a lot of people willing to try it, learn it, and do it. And while the food from create food and water may be bland and tasteless, that's where prestidigitation or the widespread nature of spices and food additives comes into play. Sure, it may create pure water, but that's bland and boring tasting, so add some flavor with a mio. Is that bland, oatmeal-like substance making you regret being hungry? well, it's a good thing sugar, salt, pepper, and other spices are relatively easy to obtain.

Whatever the case, I would probably go for undercutting the costs to produce power as my step one. For this I would need a suitable size turbine, a vat, a water supply, and outgoing power lines. It's not that hard to make a steam engine when you have a metal ball that has been enchanted with heat metal that heats itself up with a command word and stays heated at that temperature. Surround that with water, such as from a decanter of endless water, and that will come to a boil, steam off, push the turbine and generate power. The steam output can then either be released into the environment or recycled through the system. Letting out a bunch of new water into the ecosystem would have a gradual impact, but that could be mitigated for a time by releasing the water in places that would soak up the water the most (so if you wanted to flip the sahara from being a desert to being a grasslands, giving it a steady water supply would be a place to start). If you're not aiming to alter the environment by adding water to the system, then you don't need the decanter you can pay for water from the utility company and thus participate in the economy instead of just taking people's money for power.

When it comes to sewage and industrial runoff, this is where casting or using something to cast purify water actually causes problems. Because most likely purifying water involves removing the not water elements from it. In a real world chemistry set up, that means you are effectively removing matter from the earth, however little. Over time that would build up and cause it's own set of problems. So what you would be looking for is more like an intelligent magic item whose mind has been set up to enjoy separating out pollutants from water by casting fabricate on polluted water, resulting in bricks of various elements and a plot of pure water that can then be dropped in the outflow pipe. With a discerning enough intelligence behind it, you could expensive elements from their waste matter format. Not being privy to the chemical make up of industrial waste, however, I'm not sure exactly what you could get out of it with a magical filtering process.

But it's reasons like this that I'd be wanting to train others in magic. Smart people on this strange little plane that I've been made the protector of the oceans for would have their own kinds of knowledge. And certainly after seeing an airplane in flight and peeping the lack of magic involved with a quick detect magic my wizard would know that something is going on with these people that would require someone inundated with their knowledge and world view to untangle the problems they have woven for themselves.

When it comes to protecting the wild life in the oceans, I'm going to assume that allowing humans to continue safe and appropriate levels of fishing is alright. Bearing that in mind, training the whales of the ocean to be psions seems like a strong contender for protecting the oceans from human threat. If every whale hunter's head spontaneously explodes from mysterious circumstances, it will probably disincentivize the activity. That said, if they managed to luck out and kill a non psychic whale and lived to tell about it they might become a folk hero or legend, but that's a potential problem rather than a guaranteed eventuality. The other benefit to training the whales themselves is that they have their own means of long distance communication in the form of ocean based sonar and potentially a lot of time to meditate and expand the powers of their minds, making it very tricky to actually hunt out the last of the psychic whales should such a consequence arise.

That still doesn't fix the garbage islands floating around in the ocean however. This is where creative use of fabricate and people who know what things in this world are comes into play. If even a significant portion of those garbage masses are composed of improperly disposed of plastics then fabricate could be used to target the plastic in the mass and convert it into a bag around the garbage mass. From there a well placed gate spell, and a demiplane could serve as a means to move the trash out of the water and to another location...then using either psychic or magic means divining who the trash belongs to and dumping it in their corporate office until they get the message.

Dealing with runoff is a trickier matter. The idea mentioned earlier requires cooperation from the company in question, but if they don't want to cooperate it becomes a hairy situation. And they would have a lot of reason not to want to cooperate, not the least of which being that some crazy person claiming to be able to do magic is telling them how to run their business. If that magic is real or not, and no matter how pretty they might talk, there's going to be someone along the line who says no because it doesn't make sense to a business person to listen to someone with no business credentials. So before any diplomancering can happen, applying for and then testing out of the classes for as many collegiate degrees as possible would be on the list of things to do. I may not have the power name on hand right now, but there's bound to be a wizard spell or psychic power that grants a bonus to knowledge checks an the ability to use that skill untrained as if trained while in effect. Having credentials in hand, probably including a few doctoral theses give this ghestalts likely int score, would do a lot to allay reasonable concerns that would arise from abusing diplomancy. The main problem you're going to have is that you will need to register for some kind of ID somewhere if you want to be recognized as a person instead of some kind of illegal alien. This means immigrating to some country in particular, or finding a way to found a country and get it internationally recognized to declare yourself a citizen of that place.

One possible means of dealing with both protecting the ocean and jumping through real world bureaucratic hoops would be to use/abuse simulacrums. If we're talking 3.5, and with appropriate shenanigans involved allowed by the gm, you might be able to run something like a wizard/dweomerkeeper gestalted with psion and thus have the delicious ability to cast some spells as supernatural abilities a limited number of times per day. We're going to set wish aside in a corner to go sit on it's hands, because the spell I'm looking at is simulacrum. I'm going to assume we can't make a ghestalt simulacrum even though we're a ghestalt character, but even just wizard 10 or psion 10 simulacrums would be handy to have around. You could set them up with the right kinds of spells per day/powers/items to have them patrol the oceans with your psychic whales to give them support and teaching guidance, or alter their appearance to have them patrolling the oceans on magical boats. If necessary you could even have them establish extra identities for you and live them out as if they were that person to be a double agent against opposition that is sure to rise against your flagrant abuse of diplomancering.

Ultimately my ghestalt would be trying to protect the oceans by flagrantly abusing magic to make effectively zero cost means of providing humans with basic upkeep to usher in a post scarcity economy. This would require helping people to make the transition and figuring out something to provide a flow of steady supply and demand other than food. If wish abuse came into play anywhere, it would probably be to drop inherent bonuses to stats for various things ranging from good people who aren't quite IQ smart enough to be psions or wizards but could be trusted with such powers to bolstering whale intellect for the same reason, to creating outright those giant heat metal orbs I was talking about earlier for steam power.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

See, you're pairing your "reduce the world's population" with an entirely different step in your plan and treating that whole as being responsible for the supposed success of your plan when, in fact, you could do absolutely nothing about the breeding of the world population and still unite everyone under the same goal with all the brightest minds in the world leading the way and get the same end result.

So again, I ask, what does convincing people to not breed do to fix the oceans that moving people away from the oceans doesn't also do?

And that's not even getting into how the brightest minds in the world are still eminently fallible and capable of screwing up.Reducing overpopulation is just one part of the plan, which reduces the ecological strain of the whole planet. Teaching people that they need to be responsible with their actions (including breeding) is a huge step up from where we are now.

"Moving people away from the oceans" could mean any number of things, up to including murdering them all. The potential collateral damage on that is unacceptable for anybody with a shred of personal decency. Or if you just want to move them to another planet, you'd have to worry about THAT planet's ecosystem as well, if humans are still just as thoughtless as a whole as they are now.

And considering 'the brightest minds in the world' include someone with Intelligence and Wisdom check bonuses that surpass gods and who has infallible divination on his side, I'm pretty sure the fallibility portion is somewhat diminished.

In addition, teaching humanity how to better itself has all sorts of side-benefits. We're only scratching the surface of humanity's potential, and squandering that on things like watching episodes of Here Comes Honey Boo Boo is a crying shame.

[Elricaltovilla]

I think we're at an impasse here. You've not even acknowledged any of the points I've made and you've moved the goalposts so far from their starting point that any attempt to continue would be futile. I don't appreciate having my points ignored, misrepresented and being forced to argue against a set of standards that clearly deviate from the premise of the thread.

[VenomTongue]

Okay I have many questions.
1. Some species that were once in the oceans are now extinct. Do I have to bring them back?
2. When you say I can't "destroy humanity" does that preclude me killing any humans, or just all the human. Because if I kill a few billion that would really help the natural world out.
3. "Healthy Oceans" is a weird concept to me. I mean even if all the fish die the "oceans" will be fine. Also you could argue (if you were a pedant, and I am) that global warming is making the ocean's bigger.
4. When you say "pre-industrial" how pre-industrial are we talking about? I mean technically if I kill all living things then technically its pre-industrial, way, way pre-industrial.

So assuming that you mean a full and vivacious ocean that exists free of pollution and isn't overrun with jelly fish or similar.
If you expand the area of a species it will just grow to fill the space. Terraforming Mars is, at best, a temporary solution, as is killing a whole lot of people (though you've got to start somewhere!)
The solution is of course quite simple to the capable mind. First invest in crematoriums.
Create Cloudkills spells while in ghostform in major cities to thin out the world's human population.
Start with poor areas of the world where more powerful countries will be likely to ignore the problem, tell media companies that you (and you alone have the solution).
Then spread the murder clouds (in ghost form) to major cities thinning out humanity by 70%, again claiming you know how to solve it.
Then hit New York but then reveal yourself. Throw around some flashy magic masquerading as technology and dismiss the cloudkill.
Say you have solved the problem. Earn the world's praise.
Use the various meetings with high level officials to cast 'Dominate Person'. Get them together at a mass and secretive event like the Bilderberg Group meeting and cast mass Polymorph, make the world's most powerful into Mer-people.
Suddenly the oceans have a constituency, and that constituency is rich and powerful. Watch as the ocean's improve over the course of a decade- tops.
No infinite loops, no wishes, just old fashioned murder and conspiracy.

[Sagetim]

Okay I have many questions.
1. Some species that were once in the oceans are now extinct. Do I have to bring them back?
2. When you say I can't "destroy humanity" does that preclude me killing any humans, or just all the human. Because if I kill a few billion that would really help the natural world out.
3. "Healthy Oceans" is a weird concept to me. I mean even if all the fish die the "oceans" will be fine. Also you could argue (if you were a pedant, and I am) that global warming is making the ocean's bigger.
4. When you say "pre-industrial" how pre-industrial are we talking about? I mean technically if I kill all living things then technically its pre-industrial, way, way pre-industrial.

So assuming that you mean a full and vivacious ocean that exists free of pollution and isn't overrun with jelly fish or similar.
If you expand the area of a species it will just grow to fill the space. Terraforming Mars is, at best, a temporary solution, as is killing a whole lot of people (though you've got to start somewhere!)
The solution is of course quite simple to the capable mind. First invest in crematoriums.
Create Cloudkills spells while in ghostform in major cities to thin out the world's human population.
Start with poor areas of the world where more powerful countries will be likely to ignore the problem, tell media companies that you (and you alone have the solution).
Then spread the murder clouds (in ghost form) to major cities thinning out humanity by 70%, again claiming you know how to solve it.
Then hit New York but then reveal yourself. Throw around some flashy magic masquerading as technology and dismiss the cloudkill.
Say you have solved the problem. Earn the world's praise.
Use the various meetings with high level officials to cast 'Dominate Person'. Get them together at a mass and secretive event like the Bilderberg Group meeting and cast mass Polymorph, make the world's most powerful into Mer-people.
Suddenly the oceans have a constituency, and that constituency is rich and powerful. Watch as the ocean's improve over the course of a decade- tops.
No infinite loops, no wishes, just old fashioned murder and conspiracy.

preeeeeeeetty sure that counts as destroying humanity. You're wiping out the majority of humanity and then making the likely overlords into fish men. I'm pretty sure that would destroy the existing societies and cultures of humanity and thus count. Even if you spare enough humans as a species that they could start trying to put the pieces back together. With that heavy a population loss you would also set up a regression to more primitive, more polluting, and all around worse technologies just to try and survive. And there's nothing to guarantee that the former captains of industry would actually care about the ocean. They would only care about having a suitable water environment in which to live. And with no one to prevent them from concentrating all the remaining wealth into their own hands, they could have luxurious aquarium palaces all to themselves and do nothing to actually help the ocean at large. Also all those dead bodies have to go somewhere, and their rotting, unburied presence would provide a ripe breeding ground for all kinds of nasty things. Left with few options, the survivors might take to shoving bodies into rivers to be carried down stream/into the ocean just to get them away from what little civilization they have left.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Any attempt at convincing me that destroying humanity or sealing them away forever is a good idea is doomed to failure, I'm afraid.

[Elricaltovilla]

Any attempt at convincing me that destroying humanity or sealing them away forever is a good idea is doomed to failure, I'm afraid.

I never actually read your plan or any of your posts until I decided you were arguing with me personally and now I'm using you as the strawman to represent every single poster in this thread that I disagree with.


FTFY.

Here's my actual proposal. You'll note the distinct lack of killing people in it.


Yeah, no. With the ability to craft repeating traps of create food/water, open gates to the elemental plane of Fire for infinite clean energy, repeating traps of genesis to create demiplanes filled with whatever raw materials you need, and Wish or other spells to get around whatever issues that crop up a 20th level wizard (much less gestalt) has myriad ways to remove any problems currently facing the world's population. The entire 7 billion people on earth could very comfortably fit in the 48 contiguous United States, hell they could probably fit just fine in only one of those states. And even if that wasn't the case, the wizard can just create more space.

That and in PF 20th level wizards are just straight up immortal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-discoveries/arcane-discoveries-paizo/immortality), and you can be pretty immortal even without that thanks to having an entire other side of your Gestalt to devote to templates that would normally suck, like Lichdom.

[Segev]

Honestly? I don't do anything. The oceans take care of themselves quite well. They clean themselves through their own natural processes faster than anything Man does can harm them. There is more danger from various varieties of algae which can overwhelm ecosystems by their natural motion along currents than there is from any pollution from Man.

We just don't have the power, as humanity, to destroy the oceans. Even if we set out with that as our express intent and purpose, we could not do it. To think otherwise is supreme arrogance. We just don't have the power (in the literal sense) or the technology.

Of course, if you think there are unsightly things Man adds to them, the secret is to mass produce prestidigitation tools and sell them as cleaning implements. Then work to get Man to colonize the ocean. They'll organize their own cleaning brigades with your perfectly safe magical cleaning implements to preserve the "natural beauty" of their back yards.