expanding summon monster/n.a. lists?

[flamewolf393]

I find the list of monsters available in these list depressingly small. When running a summoner specialist, it seems to me that you should be able to summon basically ANY kind of extraplanar creature that you have knowledge of, and is of an appropriate CR compared to the existing list of creatures.

Im thinking a knowledge (planes for s.m., nature for n.a) of DC 10+ HD of desired creature allows you to add it to an appropriate summon list.

What do you guys think?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Summon monster doesn't get a monster from someplace specific, it more or less summons the platonic ideal of that monster, and gives it physical/magical form, hence why they can be dispelled. What you're looking for is planar binding or gate. You can probably make lower-level equivalents of the gate spell.

If you go with your check, the DC is (far) too low, and because it's HD-based, it heavily favours creatures with a lot of special abilities, like outsiders (thematically appropriate, but powerful). It would make SM/SNA some of the most powerful spells in the game, on the level of polymorph and shapechange. Tread carefully.

[Zombimode]

I find the list of monsters available in these list depressingly small.

They are? Have you taken into account that pretty much every book that has new monsters in expands these lists?

[eggynack]

That sounds like insanity. You'd wind up with a crazy volume of overpowered SLA's from creatures that are balanced by the fact that the SLA's are on a weak body and more utility than combat oriented. For an arbitrary example, consider the grig. We know that it's the kinda thing that'd make sense on the SNA list, because it's on the SNA list already. Ridiculously high on the list, certainly, but it's there, and now, without knowledge of its placement, we'll stick it somewhere on the list. The grig has a CR of 1, and, while most SNA 1 creatures have a lower CR, the wolf is sitting pretty at CR 1 as well. So, now the druid can spontaneously summon a grig starting at level one. And the HD is low enough that you'll succeed, too. And, while most of the grig is kinda underwhelming, one aspect that certainly isn't is its access to the spell pyrotechnics, which is a second level spell that's off list and reasonably powerful at that level. Oh yeah, and because the fiddle doesn't actually modify the CR, you get that too, and with it access to that irresistible dance ability. And do you know where the grig was placing before? Frigging SNA IX. That's insanity, in essence letting this effect turn a 9th level spell into a first level spell. Granted, the 9th level spell was over-leveled, but even so, it's a major problem getting it so under-leveled.

The point here isn't that you should just make a rule caveat for the grig and move on. The point is that this is the kinda problem that pops up when you expect a really simple overarching rule to handle the vast scope of weird and off the wall cases that exist out there. As good a number as CR is, it doesn't tell you everything about when you should be allowed to summon it. This isn't a problem unique to your plan either, cause it shows up in the official rules too. Just consider the classic planar binding an efreeti maneuver. The designers thought that a basic HD and type limit would do the job, but all it takes is a single creature with kinda wonky abilities and you suddenly broke the game. Or, looking at my example, consider the kingdoms of kalamar spell summon fey, which can summon grigs at first level, which is crazy, but which can summon pixies at that level too, which is way crazier. But, just cause your rule is one that could plausibly be real, doesn't make it not insane. Casters have enough ways to break the game without giving summoning full access to every monster book in existence.

[flamewolf393]

Fair enough, but balance issue aside, I like being fairly lenient in my games, and my biggest arguement is, why would summoning monsters have a built in limit on what can be summoned? Why can creature X be summoned, but not creature Y?

Should I do a different way of adding to the list than just a simple check?

*edit*
Idea, maybe I could make a whole varient system for summoning lists, where you start with a mostly empty list, and can add monsters to it in a similar way that wizards add spells to their book. Like having a bestiary that you research (or learn from others) new monsters, expanding your list in the process. There would be no limit on what could be summoned, other than CR appropiate equivalents, but it would take time, money, and effort to do so. Would something like that be better?

[Gallowglass]

I find the list of monsters available in these list depressingly small. When running a summoner specialist, it seems to me that you should be able to summon basically ANY kind of extraplanar creature that you have knowledge of, and is of an appropriate CR compared to the existing list of creatures.

Im thinking a knowledge (planes for s.m., nature for n.a) of DC 10+ HD of desired creature allows you to add it to an appropriate summon list.

What do you guys think?

Spoken like a summoning specialist.

Summoning magic is already one of the most powerful options in the game. You have a single spell that you can summon from a list of creatures, many of which have access to SLAs, travel modes, and extraordinary abilities that allow you to treat this one spell as a replacement or superior version of dozens of other spells. Why cast confusion once when, for the same level spell, you can summon a creature that can do it once a round for your level of rounds? Even if you are only using it to summon meatbags (which, why then would you need to expand the list anyway) summoning is the most powerful battlefield control spell and fighter replacement in the game.

Allowing the PC free reign to go book diving for functionally infinite lists of beasts to supplement the already ample by-the-book list turns if from one of the most powerful options in the game to THE most powerful by far option in the game and basically turns the game into "the summoner and a bunch of rubes standing around beside him" (which, it kinda already is if the summoner is going A game)

tl;dr - the set list is an attempt at balancing the spell. A poorly done attempt, but an attempt all the same. Play with fire at your own risk.

[eggynack]

Fair enough, but balance issue aside, I like being fairly lenient in my games, and my biggest arguement is, why would summoning monsters have a built in limit on what can be summoned? Why can creature X be summoned, but not creature Y?
Because it's such a better system. Again, having a number determine everything requires so many holes, and caveats, and moment to moment decision making in terms of what should be allowed (when your player decides to use something that seems overpowered). Just having a list gets rid of all those problems. It's one of those places where I feel like the designers straight up nailed it, even if the list itself has its problematic moments (like frigging oreads).


Idea, maybe I could make a whole varient system for summoning lists, where you start with a mostly empty list, and can add monsters to it in a similar way that wizards add spells to their book. Like having a bestiary that you research (or learn from others) new monsters, expanding your list in the process. There would be no limit on what could be summoned, other than CR appropiate equivalents, but it would take time, money, and effort to do so. Would something like that be better?
Seems like you get the exact same problem. Lemme put it this way. I have no idea how imbalanced this thing is, because knowing the problems in the system would require looking at a really big percentage of the D&D books produced and checking whether creatures within specific bounds are overpowered at particular levels. I can tell you one thing from experience doing druid research though. This is almost always broken. If you can summon a fey based on HD, you get either the siabrie with the high level version or the pixie with the low level version. If you can only call up good outsiders of 6 HD or less, and only get access to most of the abilities, then you get the movanic deva and do crazy stuff. If you can only become an animal, then the dire tortoise is right there, being awesome. It's not just one ability that happens to be overpowered here or there. It's practically every ability of this form in existence. They all have these problems, obscure things that the designers never considered that can be exploited, ridiculous creatures from weird web sources that they didn't even likely know about. It's inevitable. And you can set up research limits, but the option will still be there, waiting to break the game. There's a reason you don't just make a weird number limit, and it's because the weird number limits so often go wrong.

[Gallowglass]

*edit*
Idea, maybe I could make a whole varient system for summoning lists, where you start with a mostly empty list, and can add monsters to it in a similar way that wizards add spells to their book. Like having a bestiary that you research (or learn from others) new monsters, expanding your list in the process. There would be no limit on what could be summoned, other than CR appropiate equivalents, but it would take time, money, and effort to do so. Would something like that be better?

"let me check my pokedex."

[daremetoidareyo]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5 This will help.

Another option is to allow the pc to populate the list with one or two monster with each level up.

[Bullet06320]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444042-Legal-3-5-Summonable-Monster-List
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11186

Dragon Magazine 302 Summoner's Circle article has rules for adding more critters to the list and different templates