Bonded Summoner dragon disciple?

[Keral]

Hello everyone!
Would this build work?

5 level of sorc, familiar and getting Knowledge (Arcane) to 8 along with the spellcasting requisites I need.

5 levels of Dragon disciple, or just 2 since it seems in 3.5 I don't get a size increase at 5th. Allowing me to get Knowledge (Planes) as class skill and up to 8.
10 levels of Bonded Summoner.

I'd get a 1d6 bite and two 1d4 claws attack. With Improved natural attack (x2) they'd become 1d8 and 1d6. (2d6 and 1d8 if the master can be persuaded to grant the size increase).

Now to the part on which I have doubts. Bonded summoner allows me to turn into an elder elemental (huge) for 10 hours once/day. I read the description, and this transformation works like polymorph, except it lasts for 10 hours and turning does not trigger Aoo.
Polymorph says it works like alter self, except:
I gain DEX, STR and CON of the new form.
I gain extraordinary special attacks.

Alter self says:
I keep my own hp, alignment, bab, and saves.
I gain, movement, armor, natural armor, size and natural weapons (A fire elemental has slam)
Then it goes on:

"You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have. "
So would I as an elemental have claws and jaws? But even if the answer is no it further says:

"You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels."

And, a dragon disciple says
Claws and Bite (Ex)

Which would mean I keep them? They're a class privilege and it's listed with (Ex) making it extraordinary thingy for my purpose.


If yes.
I'd get from medium to huge + improved natural weapon, meaning the damage increases by 3 steps. 3d6 bite and 2d6 claws, when in elemental form. I add a 2d8+6 slam (which I could increase to 3d8+6 if I take a thrid improved natural weapon?).
I should gain Burn
Burn (Ex)
A fire elemental’s slam attack deals bludgeoning damage plus fire damage from the elemental’s flaming body. Those hit by a fire elemental’s slam attack also must succeed on a Reflex save or catch on fire. The flame burns for 1d4 rounds. The save DC varies with the elemental’s size (see table). A burning creature can take a move action to put out the flame. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Creatures hitting a fire elemental with natural weapons or unarmed attacks take fire damage as though hit by the elemental’s attack, and also catch on fire unless they succeed on a Reflex save.

In the srd it says only the slams attack, but that is because that's the only attack it has listed. Would I get it to apply to bite and claws? It would make sense, wouldn't it?

If yes, how much damage would the burn make? A fixed 2d8 for attack? Looking at the different elemental sizes the burn deals damage equal to the weapon itself. But that changes with size so it would make sense if the burn depended on it as well.

Then again, if I manage to cast enlarge person on myself (at level 20 I'd be like a 10th level sorcerer so I could) my natural weapons would still gain damage.
If my math is correct I'd deal on a full round attack

4d6+3d6+3d6+3d8+6;Bite, claw claw, slam. Plus 2d8 from slam's burn and additional 6d8 if I can get burn to the bite and claws?

That's either 10d6+5d8+6 with only slam's burn
or
10d6+11d8+6 with every attack dealing a 2d8 burn.


Did I miss something? Or would this not work due to me not keeping bite and claws in elemental form?
This would only be an outline, I'd still have to chose race and a few feats, if the idea works, that is. And well, I realize that until I get to level 20 (or 17 if I decide to get only 2 of dragon disciple) I wouldn't be much use. but it was a fun concept for me. I've been toying for a while with the idea of a character with only natural weapons but wasn't really thrilled with the limited damage they deal and the limited ways to get an increase in size. And I like elementals so this, if it worked somehow, would be win-win for me.

Many thanks for your time and any insights, suggestions or comments you might want to share!

[daremetoidareyo]

You should be able to keep your claws and bite derived from the class level even in elemental form.

But I wanted to talk to you for a second about versatile spellcaster + dragon disciple. It appears that you can use the bonus spells from dragon disciple to gain spells of the next level up if you also have heighten spell. Versatile spell caster lets you drop two spell slots to cast a spell of the next level higher. The problem is that you don't yet know any spells of the next level higher...unless you heighten a spell... Conveniently, there is a work around in complete mage or arcane where there are special spell component items that give you a free one level heighten. Anyway, because you are able to cast spells of the next higher level, that makes the next level a valid target for the bonus spells class feature of dragon disciple.

Also, Consider taking the wilderness companion ACF to get a druid animal companion. Then consider trading the animal companion for an elemental companion (complete mage p.33). Then take obtain familiar at level 3. The elemental companion class feature of bonded summoner should, RAW, advance both of your elemental companions! (the one from the animal companion that you traded your familiar for and the one that you traded your obtained familiar for)

[Keral]

You should be able to keep your claws and bite derived from the class level even in elemental form.

Yay!
Tho I realized I probably can't use enlarge person on me while in elemental form as I'm not humanoid

This spell causes instant growth of a humanoid creature

That would drop my anticipated damage by one size category :(


But I wanted to talk to you for a second about versatile spellcaster + dragon disciple. It appears that you can use the bonus spells from dragon disciple to gain spells of the next level up if you also have heighten spell. Versatile spell caster lets you drop two spell slots to cast a spell of the next level higher. The problem is that you don't yet know any spells of the next level higher...unless you heighten a spell... Conveniently, there is a work around in complete mage or arcane where there are special spell component items that give you a free one level heighten. Anyway, because you are able to cast spells of the next higher level, that makes the next level a valid target for the bonus spells class feature of dragon disciple.

I didn't really pay attention to that bit, does this ability mean that i could (in another scenario) add those bonus spells to my level 9 spells? That'd be neat.



Also, Consider taking the wilderness companion ACF to get a druid animal companion. Then consider trading the animal companion for an elemental companion (complete mage p.33). Then take obtain familiar at level 3. The elemental companion class feature of bonded summoner should, RAW, advance both of your elemental companions! (the one from the animal companion that you traded your familiar for and the one that you traded your obtained familiar for)

Interesting! I'm unsure whether to go with it tho. I don't know if I can make it fit. I mean, I'm taking 2 (or 3) feats to increase natural weapon damage.
I was planning on taking multiattack, and perhaps improved multiattack to help me hit, after all all my damage is pointless if I miss. and these classes are not really improving my bab by much...

Then, since my spellcasting ablities are not very good and my damage before getting the 10th level of Bonded Summoner is well, laughable, I wanted to have something semi decent to keep me going. I was thinking Fiery burst - heighten spell - versatile spellcaster.
Thus, if I limit my spellcasting, I can relatively soon trade slots to get a 9th slot to have a decent 9d6 fiery burst.


That means, uhm, 7 aquirable feats
Improved Natural Attack x3, Multiattack, Fiery burst, Heighten spell, Versatile spellcaster.
OR
Improved Natural Attack x2, Multiattack, Improved Multiattack, Fiery burst, HS, Versatile spellcaster.
OR
Improved Natural Attack x2, Multiattack, Fiery burst, HS, VS. One slot to get the second companion.

And that leaves me without Eschew materials, and I've never played without. Granted, I'd use very few spells with this build and I'm supposed to have those components in my pouch, right?

And now that I think about it, I could be a human and get 8 feats, that'd solve most of my problems...Tho I wanted to see if I could swing being a troglodyte for the natural armor XD

I'd just have to see if my master would allow that reading to get 2 companions...


Thank you! You've given me much to think about. I totally missed that bit about the extra spells, and getting two elder elementals as companions is...well, appealing :P


Now I'd only need someone to clarify the bit about the Burn ability and I'd basically be good to go.

[Sword-Geass]

Consider droping INA, the damage increase is really small. From 2d6 (average 7) you go to 3d6 (average 10.5). One feat for 3.5 damage is a poor choice, and that is for your bite, your claws are in a worst position going from a 1d8 (4.5) to 2d6 (7), which is only a 2.5 increase. On the other hand you can take something like Knowledge Devotion, which will give you a +1 to hit (which you will need) and a +1 damage, at minimum, being able to give you a bonus to hit and damage of up to +5, for all your attacks. Also, if you find some way of increasing your to hit, you could take Power Attack. If you want to go that route, maybe Tenser's Transformasion will be useful, or Nighstalker Form. Both spells will end giving you full BaB, so that will help, along with an increase in Str if it is Tenser's, or Sneak Attack and Evasion if you used Nighstalker. Also, both of them have the downside of making you unable to cast spells while they last, but that doesn't seem to be a trouble for you.

[Keral]

Consider droping INA, the damage increase is really small. From 2d6 (average 7) you go to 3d6 (average 10.5). One feat for 3.5 damage is a poor choice, and that is for your bite, your claws are in a worst position going from a 1d8 (4.5) to 2d6 (7), which is only a 2.5 increase. On the other hand you can take something like Knowledge Devotion, which will give you a +1 to hit (which you will need) and a +1 damage, at minimum, being able to give you a bonus to hit and damage of up to +5, for all your attacks. Also, if you find some way of increasing your to hit, you could take Power Attack. If you want to go that route, maybe Tenser's Transformasion will be useful, or Nighstalker Form. Both spells will end giving you full BaB, so that will help, along with an increase in Str if it is Tenser's, or Sneak Attack and Evasion if you used Nighstalker. Also, both of them have the downside of making you unable to cast spells while they last, but that doesn't seem to be a trouble for you.

uh, I didn't think about it in terms of average damage...Tho I still might keep one for the claws, since it applies to both of them...I guess I was still hoping to find a way or two to increase my effective size to get to those 6d6 bite and 4d6 claws XD

I looked up knowledge devotion and it seems interesting. I'd have 8 in arcana and planes as prerequisite and my dm is a bit lax when it comes to knowledge checks (he usually lets us check with arcana even if the creature isn't really magical, tho that may change when he hears of this). Would you think it a god idea to invest a bit in the other knowledges?

I'd have to look around for some ways to increase my to hit for power attack. Although I'm not sure I like the concept much...

As for tenser's trasfromation that's a 6th level spell right? I think I'll only get to know level 5th spells with this setup and I'd be dependent on someone else, which isn't good.
I'm, however, not familiar with nightstalker form, I'll have to look for it.