Druid wild shape twice?!

[LVOD]

Am i missing something? Druids can only wild shape twice for their entire career until they get to 20 and it becomes infinite? What the hell?

[KorvinStarmast]

Am i missing something? Druids can only wild shape twice for their entire career until they get to 20 and it becomes infinite? What the hell?
Nope. Read what it says in the rules.

Wild Shape
Starting at 2nd level, you can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before.
You can use this feature twice.
You regain expended uses when you finish a short or long rest.
Also

You can stay in a beast shape for a number of hours equal to half your druid level (rounded down). You then revert to your normal form unless you expend another use of this feature. You can revert to your normal form earlier by using a bonus action on your turn. You automatically revert if you fall unconscious, drop to 0 hit points, or die.
That means that as you go up in level, you can stay in beast shape longer. It also means that you can, if you make two short rests in a day, change up to six times in a given adventure day.

At level 20, the always change is the Big Deal Capstone ability.

[tieren]

refreshes on a short rest so if you are getting 2-3 in a day like you are presumed to be doing it would be 4-6 times a day.

As you level get access to polymorph and animal shapes which can simulate more shifting (including for your entire group).

[Slipperychicken]

In general, when you're reading a section of rules, you need to read the whole thing carefully and completely before jumping to conclusions.


My DM does the same thing; he'll skim over half of a rules section, see something shocking, stop reading because of how shocked he is, and then he won't look literally once sentence later to see the context that makes it reasonable. It's an awful habit to get into, and in his case it's screwed us over many times because he ends up with nonsensical rulings until someone can set him straight. So what you need to do is read the entire section carefully, re-read it to make sure you didn't miss anything, and then ask people if it still doesn't make sense.

[LVOD]

I didn't miss anything: that all still means druid wildshapes don't scale (in terms of frequency) at all. Short rests don't change that fact, and neither does an increased duration. I'm not sure why people thought i missed that, but i didn't. It simply has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

If i want to turn into an eagle to scout ahead, thats half of my uses per rest even as a level 19 character. Furthermore, elemental shapes require two uses, so if i use ONE of those, I'm spent for the day. Personally, it'd be much more valuable to have it recharge only on long rests and have it a number of times equal to your wisdom mod. As is, you basically are forced to use it exclusively for combat (which means you miss out on all the awesome utility uses because you're saving it for the next encounter).

Maybe I'm just ranting at this point. I just couldn't believe that the most signature ability of one of the main classes was so limited.

My issue may also have something to do with my opinion of the short rest mechanic in general. I'm not a fan. Some characters are built to abuse it, for others it seems pointless, and in general i don't know when you'd ever say "alright guys, lets all chill for an hour while i get my abilities back." I think it slows down this edition terribly. Which is a shame, because everything else is streamlined.

[R.Shackleford]

General reading, jumping to conclusions.

Pretty much, yeah.

[JackOfAllBuilds]

Because what they can shift in to scales with their level. Capstones, you're basically a demigod

Also your opinion on short rests seems horribly skewed.

[LVOD]

Again, I'm not jumping to any conclusions, guys. Maybe YOU should all take the time to actually read.

This is about the FREQUENCY OF USE OF THE WILD SHAPE ABILITY. It starts at 2/short rest and doesn't increase until the capstone (where is becomes infinite).

[JumboWheat01]

Because what they can shift in to scales with their level. Capstones, you're basically a demigod

Also your opinion on short rests seems horribly skewed.

"Basically a demigod?" Unlimited shape-shifting, which in essence means unlimited HP, ability to ignore somatic, verbal and non-cost material components on all your spells? You ARE a demigod of nature by that point, Land or Moon.

[LVOD]

Also your opinion on short rests seems horribly skewed.

How so? I'm honestly asking because its basically my only complaint about this edition. I can't stand short rests, and i don't get why everyone would ever want to completely stop doing anything multiple times a day just to chill out. Why not just have short rest based abilities usable more frequently, and get rid of them all together?

[JackOfAllBuilds]

Yes, and I'm saying it seems perfectly balanced when you weigh it against everything else, especially that the wildshape forms improve over time.

And infinite at 20, the capstone, penultimate Druid

I really fail to see your point other than you seem to be getting hung up on it :-/

[Grod_The_Giant]

Someone came up with an easy (if a bit over-abstract) houserule a while back- everyone gets the equivalent of two short rests a day, taken whenever you want and you're not in combat. That gives you your expected number of uses per day (6; more than most 3.5 Druids) without increasing anyone's ability to go nova.

But I think you may be over-estimating the impact of short rests. My experience has been that, outside of dungeon crawls, you rarely have back-to-back fights, while you DO often have breaks while you wait for one reason or another- a side mission that takes longer than the one you were on, waiting for nightfall, waiting for the wizard to do his ritual, whatever. If you allow them during easy travel they become even more common. And if you are doing a lot of fighting, taking time to hole up and bandage your wounds seems like a pretty logical thing to do.

Edit: though I doubt it would hurt to have your uses scale up a bit, maybe following the progression for Warlock spell slots.

[JackOfAllBuilds]

It is fine other than YOUR personal hang ups over short rests

[MeeposFire]

I didn't miss anything: that all still means druid wildshapes don't scale (in terms of frequency) at all. Short rests don't change that fact, and neither does an increased duration. I'm not sure why people thought i missed that, but i didn't. It simply has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

If i want to turn into an eagle to scout ahead, thats half of my uses per rest even as a level 19 character. Furthermore, elemental shapes require two uses, so if i use ONE of those, I'm spent for the day. Personally, it'd be much more valuable to have it recharge only on long rests and have it a number of times equal to your wisdom mod. As is, you basically are forced to use it exclusively for combat (which means you miss out on all the awesome utility uses because you're saving it for the next encounter).

Maybe I'm just ranting at this point. I just couldn't believe that the most signature ability of one of the main classes was so limited.

So limited? The only edition where realistically a standard druid gets less uses in a standard day was in 4e where it was at will.

In AD&D it was something like 3/day. Much less than in 5e. In 3e normal wild shape does not equal the short rest mechanic until level 18 (I am keeping the elemental shift separate for this purpose if you want to include it you still wait until 16th level to equal 5e).

It takes a 3e druid at least 16 levels to equal the 5e druid in a standard day and at 20th level the 5e druid pulls ahead again forever. The 5e druid is behind for about 3 levels AND it gets all of its uses at the start of the game while the 3e druid has to start at a measly one and has to wait a long time to equal the 5e druid.

[LVOD]

Yeah, must just be my personal hangups with short rests. In my mind, short rests are far from a guarantee, and even if you get one it means the world keeps spinning without you while you make no progress on what you were doing.

If I'm a druid, I'm rationing my wild shapes around the assumption that I'm only getting two, because in most situations where I'd need a short rest, I'll be too involved in the task at hand to get one. Point is, I'm not going to use any of the virtually infinite uses of the ability aside from combat, just because I'll want to save then for what is clearly 'optimal' rather than fun or interesting.

[LVOD]

Can i turn into a chameleon and try to blend in to spy on the bandits? No, because if they do happen to see me, I'll need to fight and I'll only have one wildshape left.

[MeeposFire]

A land druid does not really use wild shape to attack so that may be your best bet. Then you use wild shape fo utility like you wanted. It is even pretty optimal so long as you choose some good spell choices.


Regardless even in 3e you would not even get 2 uses in a day until 6th level and if you get one short rest then you are ahead until 10th level. It is not as bad as you think (or previously did not have as many uses as yo might think).

[LVOD]

Yeah, i never played a druid in past editions (I was always a cleric kinda guy), so i hadn't really thought about past usage. I guess its always been pretty limited. Hm. Maybe I'll homebrew a solution based off CR rather than a flat 2 uses. Then i can still have all my fun without sacrificing too much (though book keeping will suck which I'm sure is why its not that way by default).

Land druid is a good point as well. I was just never very interested in the druid spells. For me, the wild shape was the whole reason to take the class.

[Gastronomie]

Can i turn into a chameleon and try to blend in to spy on the bandits? No, because if they do happen to see me, I'll need to fight and I'll only have one wildshape left.Why would you ever need to fight? The bandits wouldn't think the chameleon is a spy. Unless they're really hungry and want to eat this chameleon, or they know there's a druid in the enemy party, they'd never bother with a chameleon.

[LVOD]

... Are you really trying to disprove my point by providing a counterpoint for one specific example? There's literally an infinite number of situations where something like this could occur.

Maybe you scout ahead as an eagle, and when you return your party is in the middle of an ambush.

The point is, you're not going to use your most precious combat ability for utility, because you never know when you'll have to fight. The limit of 2 uses basically shoehorns you into saving it for turning into a bear when things get rough. Wild shape is one of the most versatile abilities in 5e, but because of that silly limit, you will only ever use it for one thing.

[Gastronomie]

Why are you being so... you know... belligerent? It's not like we mean you harm. Please just change that attitude, be more respectful. It's manners of all internet forums.

Honestly, it's all up to the Dungeon Master, really, as is the case with nearly everything in table-talk games. As a DM, I wouldn't be mean as to ambush the other players while the druid is scouting away, because while that's happening, the druid player can't join the combat and is bored, which is not entertaining for him.

And I think most DMs will say the same.

But some DMs might do it. So, really, ask your DM beforehand whether he's going to be mean or not, and choose whether you wanna be a Druid or not after hearing his answers.

This goes for almost all questions and arguments in this forum.

[fishyfishyfishy]

How so? I'm honestly asking because its basically my only complaint about this edition. I can't stand short rests, and i don't get why everyone would ever want to completely stop doing anything multiple times a day just to chill out. Why not just have short rest based abilities usable more frequently, and get rid of them all together?

You're telling us that you don't stop working for any kind of break ever? You are just constantly active with absolutely no meal breaks or downtime for reading a book or anything?

That sounds like a robot to me. You clearly are not human if that is the case.

[RickAllison]

... Are you really trying to disprove my point by providing a counterpoint for one specific example? There's literally an infinite number of situations where something like this could occur.

Maybe you scout ahead as an eagle, and when you return your party is in the middle of an ambush.

The point is, you're not going to use your most precious combat ability for utility, because you never know when you'll have to fight. The limit of 2 uses basically shoehorns you into saving it for turning into a bear when things get rough. Wild shape is one of the most versatile abilities in 5e, but because of that silly limit, you will only ever use it for one thing.

But it's not your most precious combat ability. An argument could be made for Moon Druid, but even then the combat capabilities of your spells outweigh the beast forms. Call Lightning deals damage comparable to a Giant Scorpion if it only hits one target, and it is unlocked 4 levels earlier. Scale it up and it becomes even more dangerous. Alternatively, use Conjure Animals, as a pack of wolves is liable to dole out and take far more damage than a Wild Shape.

Wild Shape is a nice feature, but we should never forget that a Druid without his wild shape is still a full-caster.

[Giant2005]

I too hate the non-scaling hard limit of two uses per rest.
The only reason I'd ever want to play a Druid is for wildshaping fun, but that limit limits the fun a little too much for it to be worth playing.
The culprit is that stupid gaining temporary hit points while wildshaped thing - it is the sole reason as to why there needs to be a limit at all. I house rule that aspect away and give the Druid unlimited wildshapes in return. The end result is not just a whole lot more fun to play, but a whole lot more balanced too.

[MeeposFire]

I too hate the non-scaling hard limit of two uses per rest.
The only reason I'd ever want to play a Druid is for wildshaping fun, but that limit limits the fun a little too much for it to be worth playing.
The culprit is that stupid gaining temporary hit points while wildshaped thing - it is the sole reason as to why there needs to be a limit at all. I house rule that aspect away and give the Druid unlimited wildshapes in return. The end result is not just a whole lot more fun to play, but a whole lot more balanced too.

Alternatively why not do both? Have an unlimited basic wild shape with no THP and weaker forms and then have the moon druid have the additional ability to use its standard combat wild shape thus letting him attack as an animal.

[JBPuffin]

But it's not your most precious combat ability. An argument could be made for Moon Druid, but even then the combat capabilities of your spells outweigh the beast forms. Call Lightning deals damage comparable to a Giant Scorpion if it only hits one target, and it is unlocked 4 levels earlier. Scale it up and it becomes even more dangerous. Alternatively, use Conjure Animals, as a pack of wolves is liable to dole out and take far more damage than a Wild Shape.

Wild Shape is a nice feature, but we should never forget that a Druid without his wild shape is still a full-caster.

I was about to say something like this. I'm playing a Druid (just hit level 8), and up to this point the biggest thing it's done is provide extra HP and a fun plot device (I got to pretend to be dinner :smallbiggrin:). Wild Shape doesn't need to be terribly good because full casting is just good - Bard and Cleric got a lot of extra goodies b/c of tradition and WotC's purpose for the game (always remember: optimizing is a way to have fun, but keeping things completely balanced is not even near the top of WotC's priorities - so long as it's playable for casuals like myself, they're pretty much okay with it).

TPBM's right - table's gonna do what table's gonna do. We did something to Lesser Restoration, after all...

[Gastronomie]

I too hate the non-scaling hard limit of two uses per rest.
The only reason I'd ever want to play a Druid is for wildshaping fun, but that limit limits the fun a little too much for it to be worth playing.
The culprit is that stupid gaining temporary hit points while wildshaped thing - it is the sole reason as to why there needs to be a limit at all. I house rule that aspect away and give the Druid unlimited wildshapes in return. The end result is not just a whole lot more fun to play, but a whole lot more balanced too.I actually think that will be a much more healthier idea.

Since this is table-talk, ignoring written rules and doing whatever the group believes is better is perfectly fine, if not something that should be promoted.

[Sigreid]

Just a quick comment on your problem with short rests. 1-2 breaks in an adventuring day doesn't seem unrealistic to me. I don't know very many (or any) people who can go a straight 16 hours for a day of activity as strenuous as Adventuring. I mean adventuring is:

Exerting yourself fully in combat with beings that genuinely want you dead.
Dealing with the stress of moving through enemy territory
Paying extra attention to try to avoid deadly traps
Bending arcane forces to your will
Bending holy forces to your will
Dealing with cuts, scrapes and bruises
Dealing with muscle strain from over exertion
Climbing up and down precarious surfaces
and much more, all while carrying heavy gear

Taking a little time once or twice in that 16 hour to catch your breath, assess the real damage, eat some food and generally recharge your batteries and re-center seems pretty logical to me. As far as slowing down the game, at least in my group if the party takes appropriate precautions and carefully selects where they short rest, we just hand wave it.

[RickAllison]

Just a quick comment on your problem with short rests. 1-2 breaks in an adventuring day doesn't seem unrealistic to me. I don't know very many (or any) people who can go a straight 16 hours for a day of activity as strenuous as Adventuring. I mean adventuring is:

Exerting yourself fully in combat with beings that genuinely want you dead.
Dealing with the stress of moving through enemy territory
Paying extra attention to try to avoid deadly traps
Bending arcane forces to your will
Bending holy forces to your will
Dealing with cuts, scrapes and bruises
Dealing with muscle strain from over exertion
Climbing up and down precarious surfaces
and much more, all while carrying heavy gear

Taking a little time once or twice in that 16 hour to catch your breath, assess the real damage, eat some food and generally recharge your batteries and re-center seems pretty logical to me. As far as slowing down the game, at least in my group if the party takes appropriate precautions and carefully selects where they short rest, we just hand wave it.

"Sir, half the party was on death's door not ten minutes ago. Don't you think it would be wise to rest?"

"Resting is for the weak!"

"What about lunch?"

"Food is for the weak!"

"Wa-"

"-ter is for the weak!"

[JackOfAllBuilds]

"Sir, half the party was on death's door not ten minutes ago. Don't you think it would be wise to rest?"

"Resting is for the weak!"

"What about lunch?"

"Food is for the weak!"

"Wa-"

"-ter is for the weak!"

:biggrin: +1 Internets to you, good sir

[RickAllison]

:biggrin: +1 Internets to you, good sir

The sad thing is that is based on actual experiences, but flipped. We are usually good about getting short rests in, but it was rather difficult to convince the party to long rest as a short rest class, even when we just were absolutely wrecked by an encounter. We were nearly out of spells, out of HP, and our DMPC had to be saved from death, twice.

Apparently they did learn their lesson, however. When I became a wizard and requested a rest after a fight that was extra draining for spells, HP, and maximum hit points, they were more than happy to oblige. We even got a fun mini-battle of the party trying to protect me as I maintained concentration on a ritual Leomund's Tiny Hut. Hooray for Sanctuary!

[JumboWheat01]

Apparently they did learn their lesson, however. When I became a wizard and requested a rest after a fight that was extra draining for spells, HP, and maximum hit points, they were more than happy to oblige. We even got a fun mini-battle of the party trying to protect me as I maintained concentration on a ritual Leomund's Tiny Hut. Hooray for Sanctuary!

That is clearly wizard bias right there. They'll stop and rest because you (as the wizard,) requested it. If a warlock tried the same thing, they'd ignore him and tell him to push on. *grumble grumble* :smalltongue:

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yeah, must just be my personal hangups with short rests. In my mind, short rests are far from a guarantee, and even if you get one it means the world keeps spinning without you while you make no progress on what you were doing.
Unfortunately, the game was written with the expectation of two short rests between 6-8 encounters. Balance, such as it is, exists according to that metric. If short rests become rare, the Druid is far from the only class that suffers- Warlocks basically die, Monks become sad (especially at low levels), and any number of classes have to do without major class features. Honestly, the Druid's two hours-long shapeshifts come out looking much better then, say, Channel Divinity.

[Kryx]

I too hate the non-scaling hard limit of two uses per rest.
The only reason I'd ever want to play a Druid is for wildshaping fun, but that limit limits the fun a little too much for it to be worth playing.
The culprit is that stupid gaining temporary hit points while wildshaped thing - it is the sole reason as to why there needs to be a limit at all. I house rule that aspect away and give the Druid unlimited wildshapes in return. The end result is not just a whole lot more fun to play, but a whole lot more balanced too.
I'm very intrigued. I consider Druid Wild Shaping pretty broken by RAW. Though without any HP the idea of a bear tank isn't so great as the AC is rather low.

Can you start a different thread that outlines your houserule so we can discuss?

[LVOD]

I just made another thread for homebrewed wild shape mechanics. I'd like to hear some specifics on this one too if you'd like to post

[Kryx]

I just made another thread for homebrewed wild shape mechanics.
No offense to you, but your aggressive tone and lack of Short rest understanding doesn't make me so interested in what homebrew you've suggested.

I do want to hear what Giant has done though.

[DracoKnight]

How my group handles it: You have 2 wild shapes per short rest until level 20, but anything with a CR of 0 does not count against that number of wild shapes.

[Addaran]

How my group handles it: You have 2 wild shapes per short rest until level 20, but anything with a CR of 0 does not count against that number of wild shapes.

That's a really nice way to handle it, simple and elegant!

[JumboWheat01]

How my group handles it: You have 2 wild shapes per short rest until level 20, but anything with a CR of 0 does not count against that number of wild shapes.


That's a really nice way to handle it, simple and elegant!

Agreed. Sometimes, the simplest solutions are the best. Plus it also stays thematic to a druid. They could spend time as a simple, harmless mouse, or fish or songbird, observing and being one in nature whenever they wanted.

Might pass this along to my DM, see what he thinks about it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Agreed. Sometimes, the simplest solutions are the best. Plus it also stays thematic to a druid. They could spend time as a simple, harmless mouse, or fish or songbird, observing and being one in nature whenever they wanted.

Might pass this along to my DM, see what he thinks about it.
The only concern is that it can make you virtually unkillable-- harmless, but you can just keep popping back into animal form.

[JumboWheat01]

Good point...

Perhaps adding that one cannot cast spells in these forms (important for later,) or use them during combat. Or both.

[Kryx]

The only concern is that it can make you virtually unkillable-- harmless, but you can just keep popping back into animal form.
I'd recommend not letting a druid change back into any form they fall out of until they complete a short rest.

To prevent that specific issue you could prevent them from wildshaping for 1 round.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'd recommend not letting a druid change back into any form they fall out of until they complete a short rest.

To prevent that specific issue you could prevent them from wildshaping for 1 round.
I'm thinking "any damage you take while doing so is simultaneously subtracted from your base form's hit points."

[RickAllison]

I'd recommend not letting a druid change back into any form they fall out of until they complete a short rest.

To prevent that specific issue you could prevent them from wildshaping for 1 round.

I do like the concept of having wounded animal forms for the Druid, even as just a general thing. Especially at level 20, having to use a variety of forms seems much more Druid-like than only becoming a mammoth.

Props to the poster who came up with CR 0 empowerment!

[Fable Wright]

I'm thinking "any damage you take while doing so is simultaneously subtracted from your base form's hit points."

Why? You're still taking overflow damage from any hit over your max while in a wildshaped form. When you're CR 0, that basically means you gain 1 hit point per wild shape off of the next round of attacks. Which is... not really worth it in the first place, as you stop wildshaping when you hit 0.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Why? You're still taking overflow damage from any hit over your max while in a wildshaped form. When you're CR 0, that basically means you gain 1 hit point per wild shape off of the next round of attacks. Which is... not really worth it in the first place, as you stop wildshaping when you hit 0.
Mmm, true. Good point.

[Giant2005]

I'm very intrigued. I consider Druid Wild Shaping pretty broken by RAW. Though without any HP the idea of a bear tank isn't so great as the AC is rather low.

Can you start a different thread that outlines your houserule so we can discuss?

I would have preferred to elaborate on it more here (I don't really like creating threads too similar to already active threads), but I made a new thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?493551-Homebrew-Unlimited-Wildshapes&p=20958757#post20958757) anyway.

[Slipperychicken]

Yeah, must just be my personal hangups with short rests. In my mind, short rests are far from a guarantee, and even if you get one it means the world keeps spinning without you while you make no progress on what you were doing.

If I'm a druid, I'm rationing my wild shapes around the assumption that I'm only getting two, because in most situations where I'd need a short rest, I'll be too involved in the task at hand to get one. Point is, I'm not going to use any of the virtually infinite uses of the ability aside from combat, just because I'll want to save then for what is clearly 'optimal' rather than fun or interesting.

In my experience, taking short rests isn't that big of a deal. You can usually get one after a random encounter, but if you're in a dungeon, you'll want to either walk out or fortify a secret room before you can safely short rest.

And yeah, you do want to save them for combat usually unless the non-combat use is going to be really good. It's like any other resource in that way, including spell slots, ammunition, or rages. You wouldn't want your barbarian blowing rages to lift a rock unless he really needs to do that.


The sad thing is that is based on actual experiences, but flipped. We are usually good about getting short rests in, but it was rather difficult to convince the party to long rest as a short rest class, even when we just were absolutely wrecked by an encounter. We were nearly out of spells, out of HP, and our DMPC had to be saved from death, twice.

Apparently they did learn their lesson, however. When I became a wizard and requested a rest after a fight that was extra draining for spells, HP, and maximum hit points, they were more than happy to oblige. We even got a fun mini-battle of the party trying to protect me as I maintained concentration on a ritual Leomund's Tiny Hut. Hooray for Sanctuary!

I found it took a similar experience from my group to teach them to take breaks. Once your group stumbles into a boss fight with no spells and half health, they might even learn to pace themselves! :smalltongue:

[RickAllison]

I found it took a similar experience from my group to teach them to take breaks. Once your group stumbles into a boss fight with no spells and half health, they might even learn to pace themselves! :smalltongue:

Oh, that happened in the same dungeon as the earlier example XD. Everyone thought we were just exploring, but we ended up stumbling onto the necromancer in his study. One Cone of Cold and an Ice Storm later, my rogue was dragging our unconscious Arcane Trickster out of trouble, our Druid went bear to drag the dead DMPC out of there (a 12-year-old girl), and our paladin and fighter were holding back the undead. Not our shining moment (and fortunately, my rogue had stolen some diamonds earlier in the castle so we had the components for Revivify). We got revenge after a short rest when our calculated alpha strike resulted in my aarakocra flying over his minions and knocking out the wizard before he could cast another spell. Our DM was a little annoyed :smallbiggrin:

[Zozma]

Unfortunately, the game was written with the expectation of two short rests between 6-8 encounters. Balance, such as it is, exists according to that metric. If short rests become rare, the Druid is far from the only class that suffers- Warlocks basically die, Monks become sad (especially at low levels), and any number of classes have to do without major class features. Honestly, the Druid's two hours-long shapeshifts come out looking much better then, say, Channel Divinity.

I think this captures the essence of it. Short rest is part of the game balance, and allowing or disallowing it when appropriate lets the GM play with party dynamics and keep things fresh and interesting.

Two per short rest should, generally, be more than enough. It's an incredibly versatile skill, allowing druids to shift gears and become adept tanks, damage dealers, or scouts on whim. And when they run out they still have their sizeable and potent arsenal of spells, which is more than can be said about, say, warlocks or monks.

[LVOD]

No offense to you, but your aggressive tone and lack of Short rest understanding doesn't make me so interested in what homebrew you've suggested.

Well that was kind of unnecessary.
I'm sorry if i came off as aggressive: the first half dozen responses to this post was just people calling me an idiot for not reading the rules. I suppose it put me in a bad mood.

I also don't have a lack of understanding of short rests: its just not a mechanic I'm fond of. I think they negatively impact immersion.

[Christian]

Well that was kind of unnecessary.
I'm sorry if i came off as aggressive: the first half dozen responses to this post was just people calling me an idiot for not reading the rules. I suppose it put me in a bad mood.

I also don't have a lack of understanding of short rests: its just not a mechanic I'm fond of. I think they negatively impact immersion.

It's possible that short rests being uniformly an hour long negatively impacts immersion. I tend to treat all time units in the game as rough approximations rather than x milliseconds, and it makes a lot of the time and movement rules easier to swallow. If a short rest is "way more than ten minutes, but nowhere near half a (8-hour) work day", then taking two, three, or more over the course of a strenuous day is totally plausible. And frankly, imagining a small group of explorers carefully feeling their way through a set of dangerous catacombs, avoiding traps, fighting monsters, and occasionally flirting with death, without periodically saying, "This looks like a safe place to stop and just breathe for a bit," kind of hurts my suspension of disbelief, even for larger-than-life fantasy heroes. If you try to push through without taking any breaks, then yes, you won't be performing at your top level in the last part of the day.

Take a lunch break, guys--it's in the employment labor laws for a reason.

[Kryx]

My short rests are 5 mins and capped at 2 as the system expects. I try to encourage them as much as possible.

The game is balanced around 2 short rests. Either you remove short rests and rebalance the classes that use them, or you make short rests usable within your game.

[MaxWilson]

My short rests are 5 mins and capped at 2 as the system expects. I try to encourage them as much as possible.

The game is balanced around 2 short rests. Either you remove short rests and rebalance the classes that use them, or you make short rests usable within your game.

Or you leave them as they are: already usable. Distinguish short rests from long rests via resource usage (water, food, torches) and random encounters: short rests take only 1/24 as long as a long rest, or 1/8 as long as the first long rest.

Short rests are particularly valuable when you can use them to regenerate non-combat resources, like the druid's wildshape. Short rest regeneration of a Fireball is only useful to the extent that you meet things worth Fireballing on a regular cadence; but short rest regeneration of wild shapes means that a druid can transform into a mouse or a hawk, go scouting, and then come back and simply Meld Into Stone for an hour to regain his wildshapes, having lost nothing through his scouting except a bit of time. Contrast that with a long rest class where spending resources on non-essentials weakens him for the next 8-24 hours. Similarly, a Shadow Monk at 6th+ level can afford to keep Pass Without Trace up all the time on the whole party as long as she doesn't mind occasionally being low on ki when potential enemies are encountered. She can just tell the DM, "Assume I always have Pass Without Trace up whenever we're on the move; whenever I get low on ki we rest for an hour to recharge it."

Warlocks can afford to be much more liberal with their Hallucinatory Terrain/Fly/Suggestion than wizards can. A wizard who uses Fly to investigate a weird rock formation just burned one of his precious 3rd level spell slots on a curiosity; a warlock burned nothing he can't get back readily.

Short rest resources are more forgiving. Noncombat-oriented short rest abilities are great; although at-will stuff like Mold Earth is of course even greater.

[Kryx]

Or you leave them as they are: already usable
Many groups, like the OP's group, have found short rests at an hour length to be unusable to the system's requirements.
The system expects 2 shorts rests for those classes to be balanced, but many GMs hate the idea of resting for an hour in a dungeon and prevent it quite a lot.

Shortening short rests has been the easiest way for my group, and many other groups based on forum discussions, to use the system that is expected.

[Christian]

I'm sure they made them an hour long to try to limit how many were taken using natural story flow rather than artificial metagame limits. More than three or maybe four hour-long short rests in a day, and it starts to seem like you've spent more of your day resting than not. Somehow, they failed to foresee the total lack of give a $%@# of the dedicated power gamer, who is perfectly willing to rest for an hour after every combat if he can get away with it in order to renew those precious "recover uses when you take a short or long rest" resources, versimilitude and story flow notwithstanding. A shorter short rest and a daily limit (at least on renewing short-rest renewable resources, I think I'd always let someone take a rest to spend hit dice) makes sense for enforcing game balance, if you have a player group you need to do that with.

[MaxWilson]

Many groups, like the OP's group, have found short rests at an hour length to be unusable to the system's requirements.
The system expects 2 shorts rests for those classes to be balanced, but many GMs hate the idea of resting for an hour in a dungeon and prevent it quite a lot.

Then as a player, you do something reasonable, such as resting in an extradimensional space (Rope Trick) instead of in the middle of the crypt.

I'm not saying you can't tweak short rests (as a DM) if you feel like it--I'm just objecting to the idea that you have to make one kind of fix or the other. You don't, unless you are having some kind of problem specific to your table. Even then the players may be able to solve their own problem without a rule change, just by changing their approach.

[R.Shackleford]

Then as a player, you do something reasonable, such as resting in an extradimensional space (Rope Trick) instead of in the middle of the crypt.

I'm not saying you can't tweak short rests (as a DM) if you feel like it--I'm just objecting to the idea that you have to make one kind of fix or the other. You don't, unless you are having some kind of problem specific to your table. Even then the players may be able to solve their own problem without a rule change, just by changing their approach.

Most classes don't get that option. You shouldn't need a wizard when you have an adventuring party.

[MaxWilson]

Most classes don't get that option. You shouldn't need a wizard when you have an adventuring party.

Are you claiming that Rope Trick from a wizard is the only way to safely hide/rest in a dungeon? It's not.

[R.Shackleford]

Are you claiming that Rope Trick from a wizard is the only way to safely hide/rest in a dungeon? It's not.

What? I never said that at all.

I responded to the idea that one should just use an extra-dimensional space as if that solved all the problems. There is a very specific list of classes that get Rope Trick, those classes should not be required when playing the game.

Please don't try to twist things.

[Kryx]

I'm sure they made them an hour long to try to limit how many were taken using natural story flow rather than artificial metagame limits.
They set a limit of 1 long rest per 24hrs. They could've done the same for short rests.

[MaxWilson]

What? I never said that at all.

I responded to the idea that one should just use an extra-dimensional space as if that solved all the problems. There is a very specific list of classes that get Rope Trick, those classes should not be required when playing the game.

Please don't try to twist things.

Who said that?

Apparently we both agree that there are multiple ways to rest safely in a dungeon. Don't get hung up on Rope Trick in particular if you happen not to have access to it. There are others.