Need Help with Character Build: Barbarian/Monk

[HeyBJ]

So I've got a character concept that I'm planning on using for Adventurer's League, and I need some help in creating the most effective build, given his background and motivations. The character is a gladiator who is known for grappling and beating opponents with just his fists. His demeanor and attitude towards combat is reminiscent of a professional rassler; he likes to talk **** before and after pummeling foes. He remains undefeated for a time, but one day a Monk enters the ring and beats him silly. Inspired by the one person to best him in combat, my character decides he needs to learn some Monk ways.

Any suggestions for the build? Keep in mind these restrictions, as I'm more concerned with fluff than optimization:

1. The build will be Barbarian/Monk. I don't want to add a third class.
2. I'd like to incorporate grappling as much as I can, though I don't necessarily need the Grappler feat.
3. Preferably no weapons, but not necessarily a dealbreaker.

I know it's definitely a sub-optimal build, but I'd appreciate any advice from you fine folks.

[Specter]

First watch out for stats; you'll need 13 in DEX and WIS. With CON in the game, you need to dump INT and CHA.

Second, Athletics. Well, duh.

Third, Grappler. Without it, grappling is just preventing movement. Advantage on attacks and restraining is gold.

You also need to leave one of the classes at level 4, since Extra Attack won't stack. I'd go Barb 4/Monk 16.

[RickAllison]

You will have a few choices to make:

1) Armored or Unarmored?

2) Con or Wis?

3) Tavern Brawler?

Armored reduces your need for Dex down to 14, but you lose out on Martial Arts, including the increased damage die. If you go armored, Tavern Brawler is a necessity, giving back the d4s and also givin a bonus action grapple to replace the attack from martial arts. Especially if you take higher Wisdom with this, Open Hand (Flurry of Blows still works) or Long Death work great with the up-close style.

Unarmored is more ability-intensive, and you will have to make the choice between the resilience of Con and the monk goodies of Wisdom. If you pick Con, the only styles that will have great goodies for dipping would be Shadow and Sun Soul, as neither rely as much on Wisdom.

[HeyBJ]

First watch out for stats; you'll need 13 in DEX and WIS. With CON in the game, you need to dump INT and CHA.

Second, Athletics. Well, duh.

Third, Grappler. Without it, grappling is just preventing movement. Advantage on attacks and restraining is gold.

You also need to leave one of the classes at level 4, since Extra Attack won't stack. I'd go Barb 4/Monk 16.

Yup, INT and CHA already going into the garbage. As for Grappler, is that really all that useful? Especially considering RAW says that I'd be restrained too, if I pinned an enemy. Or was that revised at some point? My current plan with grappling is to do the ol' grapple/shove to get advantage.


You will have a few choices to make:

1) Armored or Unarmored?

2) Con or Wis?

3) Tavern Brawler?

Armored reduces your need for Dex down to 14, but you lose out on Martial Arts, including the increased damage die. If you go armored, Tavern Brawler is a necessity, giving back the d4s and also givin a bonus action grapple to replace the attack from martial arts. Especially if you take higher Wisdom with this, Open Hand (Flurry of Blows still works) or Long Death work great with the up-close style.

Unarmored is more ability-intensive, and you will have to make the choice between the resilience of Con and the monk goodies of Wisdom. If you pick Con, the only styles that will have great goodies for dipping would be Shadow and Sun Soul, as neither rely as much on Wisdom.

I'm going unarmored for sure. The more I think about it, the more I just want to turn this guy into a pro rassler. Also, starting as a Barbarian, would I need CON resilience? That's mainly to get CON save proficiency, right?

One other big decision I'm struggling with is the level distribution. Is it better to end up with more Barbarian or more Monk?

[RickAllison]

I'm going unarmored for sure. The more I think about it, the more I just want to turn this guy into a pro rassler. Also, starting as a Barbarian, would I need CON resilience? That's mainly to get CON save proficiency, right?

One other big decision I'm struggling with is the level distribution. Is it better to end up with more Barbarian or more Monk?

You aren't focusing on Con with Resilience, it was a question k whether you wanted to put ASIs in Con or Wis. Are you rolling or taking point-buy? If point-buy, the best you can do is a 17/16/15 (or 16/16/16 for human) for your three primary stats, and it becomes important to decide what you want out of them.

[HeyBJ]

You aren't focusing on Con with Resilience, it was a question k whether you wanted to put ASIs in Con or Wis. Are you rolling or taking point-buy? If point-buy, the best you can do is a 17/16/15 (or 16/16/16 for human) for your three primary stats, and it becomes important to decide what you want out of them.

Haha, oh man. I totally misread that one. By "resilience of Con" I thought you were suggesting I take the feat Resilience and select CON.

This character's going to be in Adventurer's League, so it's gotta be point-buy or standard array. I'm thinking of going variant Human for that sweet first level feat, but are there any arguments in favor of a different race?

[Fflewddur Fflam]

I have fiddled around with monk/barbarian builds, trying at first to make a Str build, and it's just sub-optimal. When you consider that a barbarian rage is really about adding to your defense (getting resistance to damage, and with Bear totem, resistance to ALL damage but psychic) and all you are getting is a measly +2 damage at low levels, I'm willing to forego the +2 damage (and reckless attack) and take the damage resistances and still have a monk with a strong AC (which you will not have if you go strength build).

I suppose you could just have Wis at 13 and get your AC from Dex and Con (the Barbarian AC) but then your stunning strike DC is low and stunning strike is really in my mind the best thing the monk brings to the table (And stunning strike is waaaay more effective than grappling somebody, by the way, so having a monk that chooses to grapple instead of stun is like having a guy with a light-saber and a butter knife that chooses to use the butter knife).

Here are some options for Monk 16/Barbarian 4 with final stats in parenthesis. I would recommend Long Death Monk/Totem Barbarian, this combination will make the monk an actual tank rather than a melee striker.

Half-Orc M16/B4
Str 14
Dex 15 (20)
Con 14
Wis 15 (20)
Int 8
Chr 8

Or Wood Elf M16/B4
Str 13 (14)
Dex 16 (20)
Con 14
Wis 15 (20)
Int 8
Cha 9

Or Variant Human M16/B4
Str 13
Dex 15 (20)
Con 14
Wis 15 (20)
Int 8
Chr 9
plus a starting feat, you might think about using Sentinel, since your monk/barbarian is a damn good tank.

To assuage you of the differences between a Dex build and a Strength build, let's look at a Half-Orc Strength build.

Half-Orc M16/B4
Str 17 (20)
Dex 13 (14)
Con 13 (14)
Wis 15 (20)
Int 8
Cha 8

Differences between Half-Orc Strength build and Variant Human Dex build:
Half-Orc AC=17 vs Human AC=20, a significant difference
The Human has +3 to Dex saves over the Half-Orc which is significant when you consider Evasion allows the monk to completely ignore damage on Dex saves.
Half-Orc DPR while raging=34.5, Human DPR=28.5. This is where the strength build really comes out ahead since it can use the +2 damage from raging. It really depends on whether you think this difference is worth it compared to the other disadvantages it has relative to the Dex build.
Half-Orc gets reckless attack while raging, while Human has a feat like Sentinel. Depends on what you like there, I would propose that reckless attack is far more significant to a barbarian only getting two attacks per round with a greataxe than to a monk who is getting 3 to 4 attacks per round. Reckless attack is also something that is sub-optimal when you are adjacent to more than one enemy since you are giving them all advantage to hit you (and you have AC 17).

Do what you wanna do, though! If you want a Str based build go with that, I personally prefer the Dex build in this situation.

[bid]

Barb/monk is a really bad combo, you have a few pains to handle.

- The second unarmored defense is lost, as in doesn't exist for you. If you start barbarian, you can never use the monk's version.
- Barbarian unarmored defense is pure fluff. Half-plate + Dex14 = AC17, same as Dex14 + Con20.
- Martial arts doesn't work with shield or armor.
- Str14 does as much damage as Dex20 for a level 9 barbarian.


Now, a great grappler build requires expertise in athletics (bard/rogue), action surge (fighter 2), extra attack (monk 5). Are you sure your RP fluff is barbarian, could it be fighter or rogue?


Grappler is a terrible feat: advantage on later attacks might be useful, but pinning yourself is actually bad and the 3rd point "refers to a nonexistent rule". Tavern brawler is what a barbarian might want, but monk is better.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Barb/monk is a really bad combo, you have a few pains to handle.

- The second unarmored defense is lost, as in doesn't exist for you. If you start barbarian, you can never use the monk's version.


This is incorrect. Per pg. 14 of the PHB: "Some spells and class features give you a different
way to calculate your AC. If you have multiple features that give you different ways to calculate your AC, you choose which one to use."

You would never "lose" your Monk unarmored defense if you chose it second as a multiclass, it's always there, you just can only have one feature operating at one time to calculate your AC.

[bid]

This is incorrect.
p164 maybe?

Or SRD p 57, your choice: "If you already have the Unarmored Defense feature, you can’t gain it again from another class."

[Fflewddur Fflam]

p164 maybe?

Or SRD p 57, your choice: "If you already have the Unarmored Defense feature, you can’t gain it again from another class."

Ah! I see! You are correct! No biggie, just take monk first then.

[bid]

Ah! I see! You are correct! No biggie, just take monk first then.
Yep, but it conflicts with his narrative. That strong wrestler doesn't need to be a barbarian.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Yep, but it conflicts with his narrative. That strong wrestler doesn't need to be a barbarian.

The thing about backgrounds is, they can really be "zero level", i.e. before you decided to become a paladin or a monk or whatever at level 1. I've got a Paladin with the City Watch background, was he a paladin back when he was on the City Watch, before he became an adventurer? Nope, that was just his background.

[bid]

The thing about backgrounds is, they can really be "zero level", i.e. before you decided to become a paladin or a monk or whatever at level 1. I've got a Paladin with the City Watch background, was he a paladin back when he was on the City Watch, before he became an adventurer? Nope, that was just his background.
Yeah, that's prolly the best way to handle it.

[Klorox]

If you're open on race, I'd suggest mountain dwarf, as it's already been stated: you need STR DEX CON and a 13 WIS for this build to work best. Mountain dwarf gives you the best bonuses out of these stats.

I'd suggest barbarian 1, then monk 1. I'd leave the rest up to you, but I think bear totem barbarian is a great feature at level 3, and that's as high as I'd go as a barbarian.

Starting stats:

STR 16 DEX 14 CON 16 INT 8 WIS 13 CHA 9

I'm not sure if you lose the monk damage if you wield a shield, but it's worth wearing a shield if you can. Especially that first level when you're a single class barbarian.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

If you're open on race, I'd suggest mountain dwarf, as it's already been stated: you need STR DEX CON and a 13 WIS for this build to work best. Mountain dwarf gives you the best bonuses out of these stats.

I'd suggest barbarian 1, then monk 1. I'd leave the rest up to you, but I think bear totem barbarian is a great feature at level 3, and that's as high as I'd go as a barbarian.

Starting stats:

STR 16 DEX 14 CON 16 INT 8 WIS 13 CHA 9

I'm not sure if you lose the monk damage if you wield a shield, but it's worth wearing a shield if you can. Especially that first level when you're a single class barbarian.

You can't get any of the monk's special abilities while wearing a shield, so that's out. This build would have super low AC (15 from Barbarian's unarmed defense) and would be squishy as heck. Like I said previously, I think doing a strength-based build on a monk/barbarian is sub-optimal. The best thing about rage is the resistance to damage, not the measly +2 damage bonus. Much better to pump Dex and Wis and have a high monk unarmored AC with the rage's damage resistance.

I also think Dwarf is a crappy race for monk, most of its racial abilities go against the monk or are surpassed by the monk. 25 feet movement is not horrible, but it's 5 feet less for the monk to move around in, so that doesn't help. The Dwarf's resistance to poison damage is superfluous as the monk becomes immune to poison. Proficiency in light and medium armor? Irrelevant.

[Klorox]

You can't get any of the monk's special abilities while wearing a shield, so that's out. This build would have super low AC (15 from Barbarian's unarmed defense) and would be squishy as heck. Like I said previously, I think doing a strength-based build on a monk/barbarian is sub-optimal. The best thing about rage is the resistance to damage, not the measly +2 damage bonus. Much better to pump Dex and Wis and have a high monk unarmored AC with the rage's damage resistance.

I also think Dwarf is a crappy race for monk, most of its racial abilities go against the monk or are surpassed by the monk. 25 feet movement is not horrible, but it's 5 feet less for the monk to move around in, so that doesn't help. The Dwarf's resistance to poison damage is superfluous as the monk becomes immune to poison. Proficiency in light and medium armor? Irrelevant.

I agree. And so does the OP, but he wants to play it anyway. I'm giving his the best option, IMHO, out of his requirements:

He wants a barefisted fighting barbarian/monk. He doesn't want to include any other classes, and he is open on the race.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

I agree. And so does the OP, but he wants to play it anyway. I'm giving his the best option, IMHO, out of his requirements:

He wants a barefisted fighting barbarian/monk. He doesn't want to include any other classes, and he is open on the race.

Understood, but there's nothing wrong with pointing out to the OP that there may be better ways to go about things, or that a grappling monk is a silly thing when they can perform stunning strikes.

[HeyBJ]

Now, a great grappler build requires expertise in athletics (bard/rogue), action surge (fighter 2), extra attack (monk 5). Are you sure your RP fluff is barbarian, could it be fighter or rogue?

In my head, rage is pretty essential to his character, so I'm afraid it must be Barbarian.


If you're open on race, I'd suggest mountain dwarf, as it's already been stated: you need STR DEX CON and a 13 WIS for this build to work best. Mountain dwarf gives you the best bonuses out of these stats.

I'd suggest barbarian 1, then monk 1. I'd leave the rest up to you, but I think bear totem barbarian is a great feature at level 3, and that's as high as I'd go as a barbarian.

Starting stats:

STR 16 DEX 14 CON 16 INT 8 WIS 13 CHA 9

I'm not sure if you lose the monk damage if you wield a shield, but it's worth wearing a shield if you can. Especially that first level when you're a single class barbarian.

A dwarf is definitely very interesting. And in terms of RP, I love the idea of a short person trying to rassle everything into submission.


Understood, but there's nothing wrong with pointing out to the OP that there may be better ways to go about things, or that a grappling monk is a silly thing when they can perform stunning strikes.

I appreciate the outside-the-box perspective. Based on your suggestions, it seems it's really hard to go bare-fisted without pumping DEX going pure Monk, but I'm gonna stick with my barb/monk idea and see how long he survives in the campaign. Besides, to use your lightsaber/butter knife analogy, I think it's a lot more interesting to try to kill someone using the butter knife.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

I appreciate the outside-the-box perspective. Based on your suggestions, it seems it's really hard to go bare-fisted without pumping DEX going pure Monk, but I'm gonna stick with my barb/monk idea and see how long he survives in the campaign. Besides, to use your lightsaber/butter knife analogy, I think it's a lot more interesting to try to kill someone using the butter knife.

Ha! You are a braver man than me.

[bid]

In my head, rage is pretty essential to his character, so I'm afraid it must be Barbarian.
Full RP, that's a rare breed. I raise my hat to you.

[HeyBJ]

Full RP, that's a rare breed. I raise my hat to you.

Ha, thanks! RP is why we play tabletop RPGs, isn't it? If I wanted to just min/max, optimize, and focus just on DPR, I'll go play any number of MMO's and video game RPGs.

[djreynolds]

You have to attack with strength to get your rage bonus. That's a dilemma.

Do you care about this damage bonus, or are you really after the damage resistance afford to you when you rage?

And is this build more monk? I'm guessing yes.

What kind of damage do you want with your unarmed strikes 1d10, 1d8?

A monk/rogue can grapple you as well with expertise in athletics.

A rogue/barbarian can fight with strength and use 2 daggers.

barbarian/monk mountain dwarf (Khelgar) 12/15/15/8/13/8
level 1: 14/15/17/8/13/8
level 12: 1 barbarian, 8 monk, 2,3,4 barbarian 14/18/20/8/13/8 AC 19, 128 hp +8 unarmed strikes with dex or +6 unarmed strikes with str.

But you do have damage resistance? You could leave con at 10. start as monk 14/15/10/8/15/8 .... 16/15/12/8/15/8
level 12: 8 monk, 4 barbarian 16/20/12/8/16/8 83hp, AC18 +7 unarmed strikes with str, +9 unarmed strike with dex.

[energyscholar]

@Original Poster (OP):

You're looking for the 5e Grappler's Manual (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468737-The-Grappler-s-Manual-(2-0)-Grappling-in-5th-Edition).

That answers all your questions on this topic.

One sad thing: The 5E monk class emulates striking-based martial arts. Sadly, the developers didn't think to give monks anything to emulate martial artists who grapple - like Kano Jigoro (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kan%C5%8D_Jigor%C5%8D) or Royce Gracie (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royce_Gracie). A well-built grappler will usually crush a 5e monk, who is actually very weak against grappling. It was obviously an oversight. Sad but true.

[Lombra]

I once played in a party where a Barb 2/ monk X kicked tons of asses: prioritizing STR and CON, using barbarian's unarmed defense and forgoing stunning strike, but probably capitalizing on wisdom over constitution makes the way of the open hand much more viable, so I'd sugget that.

On a slightly different point of view: barbarogues are notoriously good grapplers, they lack the unarmed strike bonuses of monks but suite very well the gladiator role.

On yet another point of view a rogue monk can grapple as well, but throwing in also some Barbarian is kinda MAD.

In conclusion: expertise does miracles: try to include a l level rogue dip and everything becomes shinier. It also fits the gladiator feel, si ce most of them were previous criminals.

[RickAllison]

@Original Poster (OP):

You're looking for the 5e Grappler's Manual (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468737-The-Grappler-s-Manual-(2-0)-Grappling-in-5th-Edition).

That answers all your questions on this topic.

One sad thing: The 5E monk class emulates a striking-based martial art. Sadly, the developers didn't think to give monks anything to emulate martial artists who grapple - like Kano Jigoro (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kan%C5%8D_Jigor%C5%8D) or Royce Gracie (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royce_Gracie). A well-built grappler will usually crush a 5e monk, who is actually very weak against grappling. It was obviously an oversight. Sad but true.

Keep in mind that many martial arts are represented by simply using a fighter. Remember that martial arts are not just an eastern thing, they encompass everything from Kung Fu to fencing and everything in between.

[HeyBJ]

@Original Poster (OP):

You're looking for the 5e Grappler's Manual (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468737-The-Grappler-s-Manual-(2-0)-Grappling-in-5th-Edition).

That answers all your questions on this topic.

One sad thing: The 5E monk class emulates striking-based martial arts. Sadly, the developers didn't think to give monks anything to emulate martial artists who grapple - like Kano Jigoro (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kan%C5%8D_Jigor%C5%8D) or Royce Gracie (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royce_Gracie). A well-built grappler will usually crush a 5e monk, who is actually very weak against grappling. It was obviously an oversight. Sad but true.

Yes, I have read over the Grappler's Manual a few times, and it is excellent! However, as mentioned earlier, I'm more in this for the RP than optimization (or even viability, really). And my favorite bit in the manual, the piledriving aspect, is apparently not going to fly in Adventurer's League, so I'm going to shelve this character until I have an opportunity to play him with my usual gaming group. Sad times.

But thanks for your input, all!

P.S. I think the grappling style of martial arts is more in the domain of the Fighter. Monks seem to be modeled after a very specific archetype that's not really known for holds or grappling in general. Unless there's a sect of grappling Eastern monks I'm not familiar with.

[GlenSmash!]

Edit: Ahh! I typed out a huge reply before reading your last post. I'll leave it below for anyone reading the thread with the same idea.

If I were trying to play a Barb/Monk from level one... hmm...this is a bit of a pickle.

Barb2/Monk18: You could go 2 Barb for rage and reckless attack then the rest in monk, and just deal with the fact that you'll get Extra attack 2 levels late. You'll trade an ASI and Perfect self at the very least, probably more monk stuff since few campaigns get to 20. I'd go to Level 2 barb for sure.

Barb3:Monk17: You could go to 3 barb for Bear totem resistance or the Wolf totem advantage to your melee party members. or go for eagle totem to "summon your eagle powers" and go full Nacho Libre. I'll assume you won't want to go the Berserker route. Monk gives a more reliable bonus action attack already. You'll Lose Empty Body, but that's not really necessary for the theme. I'd still go Barb to 3.

Barb5/Monk15: Or you could take barb to 5 for the extra attack as early as possible. You'll lose another ASI but You'll have the Barb on at level for so that's a wash. You'll also lose the Monk weapon dice upgrade and be stuck at d8s. I'll assume you're planning on going open hand to fit with the wrestler them, so now you're trading off quivering palm which looks awesome, but I've never seen it in play. No we get to a tough choice. It's a trade off between more power now, or Ultimately even more power later.

Barb6/Monk14: Barb 6 and Monk 15 both provide ribbon abilities, so pick which one you like best. Old age no longer affects you, or extra bear strength, wolf tracking, or eagle sight. If your going to Barb 5 I would take it to 6 for the bear strength. Doubling your carrying capacity could be fun for lifting and throwing opponents.

Barb7/Monk13: It's advantage on Initiative vs Proficiency in all saving throws. Is going first important to you? Is immunity to surprise tempting? if so go Barb if not grab monk.

Barb8/Monk 12: Grab a another ASI from barb at the cost of Understanig all languages and having others understand you. If ASIs are important go barb.

Barb9/Monk11: Trade an ASI for barb's brutal critical.

And that's as far as I would even remotely possibly consider taking Barb for this multiclass, any more Barb and you'll lose the possibility of d8 unarmed strikes.

Personally I would go to Barb 3 for the resistance while raging and then Monk for the rest of the way. If you want 3 attacks per round before you get to level 8, spend some ki points to Flurry.

Since the multiclass is so MAD. I would decide on what you want to excel at. If you plan on a lot of grappling, or making good use of the rage bonus to damage, or reckless attacks you'll need strength, otherwise you could dump it (to 13 at least to multiclass out of barb , and just use the Barbarian rage for the resistances. This would get you the most out of your monk levels.

With a Non-Variant human you could start with 13 Str, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 9 Int, 16 Wis, and 9 Cha. You would have a starting ac of 15 which is respectable.

Use ASIs to max Dex for your attack, damage, AC, and deflecting arrows. Then max Wis for your stunning strikes, you obviously lose out on higher unarmored AC, but you'll have Rage damage resistance to compensate.

I wouldn't get any feats. Monks have so many options already so feats really aren't all that essential to them in my opinion.

While not optimal I think it is certainly playable.

As a final note, I think you could build this character as a full monk with the Gladiator Background, but it's your character ;-)

Happy gaming.

[HeyBJ]

Edit: Ahh! I typed out a huge reply before reading your last post. I'll leave it below for anyone reading the thread with the same idea.

As a final note, I think you could build this character as a full monk with the Gladiator Background, but it's your character ;-)

Happy gaming.

No, I appreciate the effort! I'm still going to be playing this character eventually, it just looks like I won't be able to get to him as soon as I'd like. Stupid AL "standardized" rules.

Great breakdown on pros/cons for the level distribution. Looks like I'll probably be going on the higher Barbarian end of that scale. My character would appreciate the martial prowess the Monk training provides, but at heart, he's still a burly guy that wants to dominate with MUSCLE. POWER.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

No, I appreciate the effort! I'm still going to be playing this character eventually, it just looks like I won't be able to get to him as soon as I'd like. Stupid AL "standardized" rules.

What about AL is preventing you from doing your character???

[HeyBJ]

What about AL is preventing you from doing your character???

I had my heart set on piledriving dudes, but I was told that because there's no real RAW way to determine damage, and the difficulties in calculating weight/lift/carry/jump potential, it wasn't going to work in AL. :smallfrown:

[Fflewddur Fflam]

I had my heart set on piledriving dudes, but I was told that because there's no real RAW way to determine damage, and the difficulties in calculating weight/lift/carry/jump potential, it wasn't going to work in AL. :smallfrown:

Ahh. That's not an AL issue, that's just an issue with the game which doesn't have anything set up for that in the rules.

[RickAllison]

I had my heart set on piledriving dudes, but I was told that because there's no real RAW way to determine damage, and the difficulties in calculating weight/lift/carry/jump potential, it wasn't going to work in AL. :smallfrown:

Well, a more limited form certainly has rules. I'm trying to locate the rule, but I believe lifting over one's head is 1.5X height, jumping height certainly has rules, and damage is calculated from the height achieved. I have a 7' tall grappler Mage who goes Enlarged and just drops enemies from his maximum vertical reach for 2d6 damage and prone. Less damage than dedicated weapons, but there is something about no-save prone effects that are delightful.

[GlenSmash!]

No, I appreciate the effort! I'm still going to be playing this character eventually, it just looks like I won't be able to get to him as soon as I'd like. Stupid AL "standardized" rules.

Great breakdown on pros/cons for the level distribution. Looks like I'll probably be going on the higher Barbarian end of that scale. My character would appreciate the martial prowess the Monk training provides, but at heart, he's still a burly guy that wants to dominate with MUSCLE. POWER.

Awesome! I love Barbarians. Right now I'm considering a Barb/Ranger multiclass that would be just as MAD as this one. He would basically toss hunter's mark on a foe and pepper them with arrows until they got into melee range, moving hunters mark if they drop, then Rage and pummel them with a Great Weapon (possibly polearm).

If you're going heavy into barb I would definitely grab Tavern Brawler early, for the Unarmed damage bump and the Proficiency in attacks made with steel chars and ladders etc. You know the tools of the trade ;-) It's also helpful to round out an odd strength score. You could drop dex to 14 and beef up Strength and just use that as your unarmed attack score. Leaving your AC at 14 is not much of a big deal with Damage resistance from rage and a barbarians big bag of hit points. Plus you could recklessly attack with strength.

I'm liking the idea more and more: Punch and Stun, Grapple with extra attack, and knock Prone with a flurry and hit him once more for good measure with your other flurry attack. God, monks are good in this edition. More of a ground and pound then pile drive, but that creature would have to save against the Stun, beat your wrassler in an opposed check, spend half it's move to stand before it could move to melee attack any other member of the part, or it has to save against the Stun and attack with disadvantage against your rage resistance until you're unconscious before spending half it's speed to stand and attack another party member, OR stay prone and attack others with disadvantage ignoring the Muscly Monk just pummeling it in the face. That's a win-win-win scenario for you.

[HeyBJ]

Ahh. That's not an AL issue, that's just an issue with the game which doesn't have anything set up for that in the rules.

Yeah, but outside of AL, I could've worked something out with the DM to houserule how it works.


Well, a more limited form certainly has rules. I'm trying to locate the rule, but I believe lifting over one's head is 1.5X height, jumping height certainly has rules, and damage is calculated from the height achieved. I have a 7' tall grappler Mage who goes Enlarged and just drops enemies from his maximum vertical reach for 2d6 damage and prone. Less damage than dedicated weapons, but there is something about no-save prone effects that are delightful.

I considered a middle-ground solution where instead of actively piledriving, I'd just jump really high and release them to apply fall damage (mitigated to me by Monk's slow fall), but I decided I'd rather piledrive right or not at all.


I'm liking the idea more and more: Punch and Stun, Grapple with extra attack, and knock Prone with a flurry and hit him once more for good measure with your other flurry attack. God, monks are good in this edition. More of a ground and pound then pile drive, but that creature would have to save against the Stun, beat your wrassler in an opposed check, spend half it's move to stand before it could move to melee attack any other member of the part, or it has to save against the Stun and attack with disadvantage against your rage resistance until you're unconscious before spending half it's speed to stand and attack another party member, OR stay prone and attack others with disadvantage ignoring the Muscly Monk just pummeling it in the face. That's a win-win-win scenario for you.

Yeup. All of this. You, sir, get me.

[SonOfMyths73]

I've been tinkering with this idea for a while, and here's what I've come up with.

Note that this build relies on the fact that Unarmed Strikes count as Melee Weapon Attacks (as per Jeremy Crawford on Sage Advice:Can a Monk/Paladin Divine Smite with unarmed strikes?) and not all DMs may allow the feats to synergize the way the build is intended.

Races depend on if it HAS to be AL legal or not. If it does, Half-Orc or Mountain Dwarf seem to work fine, but the build really thrives with the Goliath's Stone's Endurance. However, it also uses the Path of the Zealot from Xanathar's Guide, so you have to use a PHB race to remain AL legal.
Next, As others have stated, INT and CHA are dump stats, but for this particular build, you may be better off dumping CHA more then INT because of possible use of the Religion skill. You want Strength to be your highest, followed by CON, DEX, then WIS. Keep in mind that this build will NOT have the best WIS unless you have godlike ability score rolls, so focus less on using Ki Points to force saving throws and more on dealing more damage.

Level 1: You start with a Barbarian level. You will use the Barbarian Unarmored Defense, and Rage is a MUST. I know for completely unarmed,
this isn't entirely functional (esp with the errata that Tavern Brawler no longer allows proficiency with unarmed combat), but my personal
flavor is that the character has a weapon linked to his god, which at level 2...

Level 2: ... Explodes in a display of divine power, telling your character to rely on their own strength. At this point, you pick up Monk 1 for
Martial Arts. (You already have Unarmored Defense)

Level 3: Barbarian 2 for Danger Sense and Reckless Attack (a feature that, for this build, is just the edge you need to become as
potent as a Polearm Fighter as far as reliable damage.)

Level 4: Barbarian 3, taking the Path of the Zealot. This gives you an extra amount of damage on your first strike from Divine Fury. Now,
when you get this feature, you choose whether the extra damage is Radiant or Necrotic. In this instance, the best choice for you is
Radiant. The reasoning for this is, as an unarmed combatant that is multiclassing, you are a long way off from Ki-Empowered Blows (which
can come online from levels 9-12, depending on some variables). As with things like Divine Smite, if you attack a creature that is
resistant/immune to normal weapon damage, any extra elemental damage on top is still applied, and it's a simple fact that nearly everything
that falls into the Immune category (which is where it really matters to you) is weak to Radiant, and resistant to Necrotic. This offsets the
need for Ki-Empowered Blows to deal damage to Immune creatures. Hopefully with the natural resiliance of this build, you won't need
Warrior of the Gods, but if you do die to bad rolls, stupid ideas, or creatures whose challenge rating is four times your level, the only price
needed to bring you back is that of a third level slot, which is handy.

Level 5: This is where some variation can exist. It all depends on Ability Scores; Two main branches exist, one for standard array or lower rolled
scores, and one for higher rolled scores or min-maxed point buy. Being an EXTREMELY M.A.D. build, you'll need ASIs faster for the lower
stats. From here on out, the two branches will be labled LAS and HAS.

LAS: Barbarian 4 for an ASI.
HAS: Monk 2 for a Ki-point powered increase in damage and versatility.

Level 6:
LAS: Barbarian 5 for Extra Attack and Unarmored Movement.
HAS: Monk 3, choosing the Way of the Open Hand for more versatility and power, as well as a movement speed increase.

Level 7:
LAS: Barbarian 6 for Fanatical Focus (not quite Diamond Soul, but the closest you'll get).
HAS: Monk 4 for an ASI

Level 8:
LAS: Monk 2 for a Ki-point powered increase in damage and versatility.
HAS: Monk 5 for your Extra Attack, 1d6 unarmed damage dice, and greater speed.

Level 9:
LAS: Monk 3, choosing the Way of the Open Hand for more versatility and power, as well as a movement speed increase.
HAS: Monk 6 for Ki-Empowered Strikes and Wholeness of Body (the only self-heal you get, and takes an action away from punching
somebody three to four times--use this wisely.)

Level 10:
LAS: Monk 4 for an ASI
HAS: Barbarian 4 for an ASI

Level 11:
LAS: Monk 5 for 1d6 unarmed damage dice, and greater speed. (You already have Extra Attack.)
HAS: Barbarian 5 for greater speed. (You already have Extra Attack.)

Level 12:
LAS: Monk 6 for Monk 6 for Ki-Empowered Strikes and Wholeness of Body.
HAS: Barbarian 6 for Fanatical Focus.

And from here on out, they are the same again.

Level 13: Barbarian 7 for Feral Instinct

Level 14: Barbarian 8 for an ASI

Level 15: Barbarian 9 for +1 to rage damage and Brutal Critical

Level 16: Barbarian 10 for Zealous Prescence

Level 17: Barbarian 11 for Relentless Rage

Level 18: Barbarian 12 for ASI

Level 19: Barbarian 13 for Brutal Critical (2)

And Level 20 (Barbarian 14) gives you Rage Beyond Death, which actually seems kind of fitting as a capstone ability. Note that you will not have
Persistent Rage, so you will need to deal/take damage continually for Rage Beyond Death to mean anything, but at this level, save Wholeness of
Body for use after this feature activates to be practically immortal.

All said and done, this build has:
Advantage on all attack rolls (who cares if the enemy has them too?)
Rather good bonuses to saving throws, including one reroll
Close to a Barbarian HP pool
High unarmed damage
Buffs for your team
Lots of versatility with Ki points
and to top it all off, doesn't even die when they're dead.

Damage on first connected blow on your turn is (assuming 20 STR) 1d6+8 Bludgeoning and 1d6+7 Radiant, or minimum 17 and average 21. Theoretically, this also applies to opportunity attacks, because Divine Fury uses the same wording as Sneak Attack which has always worked on OAs. Any attacks after that (which, on a turn you haven't spent your bonus action raging, are 2-3) do minimum 9 and average 12. This works out to, without even spending Ki points, 45 average damage per round (and is very reliable due to the advantage), at least 8 of which are Radiant and all of which are considered magical for Damage Resistance and Immunity. Meanwhile, you have damage resistance to nonmagical weapon damage, and a fat HP pool that, assuming rolled HP, averages at 260. Assuming the most optimised possible with Point Buy (20 STR, 20 CON, 16 DEX, and 16 WIS)

[trctelles]

If you can use Volo's, Lizarfolk is awesome. It gives you a third Unarmored Defense, but you start with a proficient unarmed attack of 1d6+STR (you will be able to use DEX with it if you get monk 1 because of Martial Arts).
This way you can skip monk if you want (maybe you character studied the ways of the monk to understand how to beat them, and not be one).

The stats are not thaaat great(+2 CON and +1 WIS), but Lizarfolk became one of my favorite races. With their alien mind, you could have maybe even eaten some enemy you really hated, and aspire to eat the monk that beat you (Lizarfolk really like eating other people, for them, they are just meat anyway).

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Please don't revive old threads.