How to build a viable support? (for Skulls and Shackles)

[Krazzman]

The next campaign we will start (after mine is done) is going to be Skulls and Shackles. Either my wife will play a Gunslinger//Inquisitor or DM it.

I planned on going a more supportive route...
Sadly my ideas of good support characters are somewhat unsure if they are good for a pirate adventure.

The campaign will most likely be a Gestalt game since we are only 3 players + 1 DM.

As such my current planning is:
Half-Orc Scarred Witch Doctor(pre errata)//??? (maybe Alchemist?)
Bard//Oracle or Summoner

But I can't decide on a good course right now... are my "plans" wrong or just not good enough/need some fine tuning?
Do you have other awesome support builds that might even function without gestalt?

[Kurald Galain]

What level are you starting at? What level is the expected end goal?

[Krazzman]

What level are you starting at? What level is the expected end goal?

1 until hopefully 18 which would be the end of book 6 afaik.

[Beheld]

Obviously the correct non-Gestalt support build is Cleric 20 (or PrCs or whatever, I don't know what you use for backwards compatibility).

So the gestalt support build will be Cleric 20//Something that casts support of Wisdom. Without specifically knowing what you allow and what else Pathfinder has, Druid 20 would give you battlefield control effects at most levels, which is a good complement to buffs for a support character. And then also you have more buffs of a different kind as well.

[Corlindale]

I played a Wind Oracle in S&S, it worked quite well. Swift-action flight proved particularly useful in ship to ship combat and group-wide Gaseous Form enabled some nice getaways at our heists. Combo with Bard would work well given gestalt. Or maybe Aquatic Sorceror to have cool thematic powers for both air and water and more offensive oomph in general.

[Krazzman]

Obviously the correct non-Gestalt support build is Cleric 20 (or PrCs or whatever, I don't know what you use for backwards compatibility).

So the gestalt support build will be Cleric 20//Something that casts support of Wisdom. Without specifically knowing what you allow and what else Pathfinder has, Druid 20 would give you battlefield control effects at most levels, which is a good complement to buffs for a support character. And then also you have more buffs of a different kind as well.

What exactly do you mean with the backwards compatibility?
Cleric//Druid is probably not that good due to I can only cast one of either list while also narrowing me down in terms of gods.
Wouldn't a Cleric//Monk or a Druid//Monk be better combinations?
But if I would go Cleric//Druid:
Which (sub)domains (from which god) should I take with the cleric?
Which domain should I take with the druid? Or should I take an AC which I will need to find while playing the campaign?
Should I go for an Archetype with either?


I played a Wind Oracle in S&S, it worked quite well. Swift-action flight proved particularly useful in ship to ship combat and group-wide Gaseous Form enabled some nice getaways at our heists. Combo with Bard would work well given gestalt. Or maybe Aquatic Sorceror to have cool thematic powers for both air and water and more offensive oomph in general.

Wind Oracle looks nice. Which curse did you take?
Aquatic sorcerer might look nice at first glance but... I don't like it. I would more likely go with Bard then.

[Corlindale]

I chose Haunted for the useful spells and relatively minor drawback. The fluff was that he'd caused the deaths of his previous crew, who now haunted him. I imagine Lame would work well too - you could fluff it as a peg leg and the penalties would eventually be almost nonexistant, since you'd be sailing out of combat and flying in combat.

[Beheld]

What exactly do you mean with the backwards compatibility?

I mean maybe you would want to fill all those Cleric levels in with prestige classes from 3.5, if that was a thing you did in your games. I don't know, because everyone is different.


Cleric//Druid is probably not that good due to I can only cast one of either list while also narrowing me down in terms of gods.

... They are the two best lists for buffs in the entire game. They are both based off Wisdom. In addition to Druids better attack spells and Battlefield Control, you would also have all of a the Clerics status removal, and all the buffs from both classes. This is absurdly better than anything else you could possibly get. Gestalting some other class isn't going to give you more actions to cast spells with.


Wouldn't a Cleric//Monk or a Druid//Monk be better combinations?

No, that would be objectively worse in every way. Even if you sacrificed the battlefield control of one side or the utility of the other, you could literally duplicate the entire monk class with the spells on the other side.


But if I would go Cleric//Druid:
Which (sub)domains (from which god) should I take with the cleric?
Which domain should I take with the druid? Or should I take an AC which I will need to find while playing the campaign?

I don't know what new overpowered domains Pathfinder has printed that are better than Travel and Trickery, but you should take those, or whatever is better than those. I don't know if there are some random Pathfinder nerfs to Druid ACs, but there is no reason you should have to find one while playing, you can just cause them to appear, and you should probably take one over a Domain.


Should I go for an Archetype with either?

You should always take as many good archetypes as you can in Pathfinder, I don't know which ones stack with which others, and which are the best for Cleric or Druid, because one of the main reasons I don't play Pathfinder is because the last thing I need is more fiddly minmax at character creation.

[SaintNick]

I've never done Skulls and Shackles before, but a Bard//Paladin mix could be interesting. Bard doesn't appear to have the nonlawful restriction in pathfinder so you can mix the two.

[Recherché]

Paladin in Skull and Shackles is a bad idea. For that matter anything lawful is a hard sell when the adventure has you playing a bunch of pirates (AKA professional murderhobos on a boat)

[Krazzman]

I chose Haunted for the useful spells and relatively minor drawback. The fluff was that he'd caused the deaths of his previous crew, who now haunted him. I imagine Lame would work well too - you could fluff it as a peg leg and the penalties would eventually be almost nonexistant, since you'd be sailing out of combat and flying in combat.

Hmm I thought Haunted would be too big a disadvantage due to losing stuff to the seas but your fluff seems really nice. (Thought about Lame or Tongues...)


I mean maybe you would want to fill all those Cleric levels in with prestige classes from 3.5, if that was a thing you did in your games. I don't know, because everyone is different.

Ah no. Just Pathfinder content. And most likely only the books we have avaiable, which is Core, APG, ACG, ARG, UC, UE, UM and the Races of books for Aasimars, Tieflings, Dhampirs and Shifters(Blood of the Moon). And Pirates of the Inner Sea.


... They are the two best lists for buffs in the entire game. They are both based off Wisdom. In addition to Druids better attack spells and Battlefield Control, you would also have all of a the Clerics status removal, and all the buffs from both classes. This is absurdly better than anything else you could possibly get. Gestalting some other class isn't going to give you more actions to cast spells with.


No, that would be objectively worse in every way. Even if you sacrificed the battlefield control of one side or the utility of the other, you could literally duplicate the entire monk class with the spells on the other side.

I don't know what new overpowered domains Pathfinder has printed that are better than Travel and Trickery, but you should take those, or whatever is better than those. I don't know if there are some random Pathfinder nerfs to Druid ACs, but there is no reason you should have to find one while playing, you can just cause them to appear, and you should probably take one over a Domain.

You should always take as many good archetypes as you can in Pathfinder, I don't know which ones stack with which others, and which are the best for Cleric or Druid, because one of the main reasons I don't play Pathfinder is because the last thing I need is more fiddly minmax at character creation.

Thinking about it... I would probably prefer Evangelist Cleric to the Standard... but for the Druid I am quite lost.
The gods that have Trickery don't have Travel... and those that do have a tie to Nature... the best "fit" would be Hanspur and even that only a slight bit.
It's not a nerf to Druid AC's but it is a "starting" complication for the Adventure Path since the premise is that you are enslaved on a ship.

What race/feats would you take for this combination? (Might be a chance to play an Undine?)


I've never done Skulls and Shackles before, but a Bard//Paladin mix could be interesting. Bard doesn't appear to have the nonlawful restriction in pathfinder so you can mix the two.

While I could combine the two for some nice synergies in fluff... i really dislike paladins. I am currently playing one and... if it weren't for a mechanical necessity I would switch characters at once. Furthermore Recherché has a point... we will most likely be CN at best (I sure hope for this...).


Paladin in Skull and Shackles is a bad idea. For that matter anything lawful is a hard sell when the adventure has you playing a bunch of pirates (AKA professional murderhobos on a boat)

Lawful Evil would work... you just are a real stickler for following the Pirate Codex. At least that what I would think it means.

[avr]

Assuming support means battlefield control this seems doable. A pure buffer isn't a good idea in a 3 man party.

In terms of action economy Druid // Warpriest seems like a good idea. You get the best battlefield control from druid (entangle, Rime spell + frost fall or snowball, etc.), an animal companion to act as a meatshield, plus neat tricks like Warp Wood which should be handy vs. ships or artillery, and warpriest covers the more obscure healing while also giving you bonus feats and swift-action personal buffs to save your bacon when your very limited frontline fails to stop enemies getting to you. If you need more skills inquisitor could replace warpriest.

[Beheld]

Thinking about it... I would probably prefer Evangelist Cleric to the Standard... but for the Druid I am quite lost.
The gods that have Trickery don't have Travel... and those that do have a tie to Nature... the best "fit" would be Hanspur and even that only a slight bit.

And why can't you just be a cause Cleric? Or find one of the better domains that I'm sure they printed.


It's not a nerf to Druid AC's but it is a "starting" complication for the Adventure Path since the premise is that you are enslaved on a ship.

Again: "If a druid releases her companion from service, she may gain a new one by performing a ceremony requiring 24 uninterrupted hours of prayer in the environment where the new companion typically lives. This ceremony can also replace an animal companion that has perished."

You can totally just magically cause them to appear, whatever one you want.

[Florian]

"Support" for this particular AP using the Gestalt rules?

Well, that is actually easy: CN H-Elf Cleric of Besmara//Bard/Enchanting Courtesan with high Ranks in Profession:Sailor and Diplomacy.

[Krazzman]

And why can't you just be a cause Cleric? Or find one of the better domains that I'm sure they printed.



Again: "If a druid releases her companion from service, she may gain a new one by performing a ceremony requiring 24 uninterrupted hours of prayer in the environment where the new companion typically lives. This ceremony can also replace an animal companion that has perished."

You can totally just magically cause them to appear, whatever one you want.

Read a bit up... it shows that the only times I played clerics was in Faerun games... and haven't looked up AC rules since I could switch it out for a Domain...
Then it seems quite awesome going Warpriest//Druid since I would give the selfbuffs I get from Warpriest automatically to my AC, which would be nice.


"Support" for this particular AP using the Gestalt rules?

Well, that is actually easy: CN H-Elf Cleric of Besmara//Bard/Enchanting Courtesan with high Ranks in Profession:Sailor and Diplomacy.

I planned on going for Perception, Profession:Sailor and anything I would need to do that the rest of my party can't do. Also Stealth.
On this note: where can I find Enchanting Courtesan? d20pfsrd doesn't seem to have it as a Prestigeclass or an Archetype for the Bard. Only thing I could find was a 3rd party npc class...

[Beheld]

Read a bit up... it shows that the only times I played clerics was in Faerun games... and haven't looked up AC rules since I could switch it out for a Domain...
Then it seems quite awesome going Warpriest//Druid since I would give the selfbuffs I get from Warpriest automatically to my AC, which would be nice.

The War Priests selfbuffs to AC are both less than what the Cleric gets "automatically" and on a slower progression.

[Krazzman]

The War Priests selfbuffs to AC are both less than what the Cleric gets "automatically" and on a slower progression.

Reread Animal Companions too now... share spells is now a bit different... combo is no longer as strong as I thought it would be...

[Florian]

I planned on going for Perception, Profession:Sailor and anything I would need to do that the rest of my party can't do. Also Stealth.
On this note: where can I find Enchanting Courtesan? d20pfsrd doesn't seem to have it as a Prestigeclass or an Archetype for the Bard. Only thing I could find was a 3rd party npc class...

You don´t need Perception on this particular AP, nor do you need Stealth. The Brute Force approach works best here, especially since you have a whole crew around you a lot of the time.

You will be forced to make some "Good" and "Evil" choices along the way, therefore the CN recommendation.

"Enchanting Courtesan" is an PrC from Inner Sea Intrigue. It´s centered around Enchantment/Divination spells and casting them without detection to brute-force the social aspect. It´s all about clandestinely casting Detect Thoughts when needed, Dominate when necessary.
It might not be up on PFSRD yet, due to grace period. I haven´t checked that and won´t do. Give a word if you need the prereqs.

Do yourself the favor an push Profession: Sailor as high as possible. Invest a trait and Skill Focus into it if possible. You´ll know why when all rules elements are used.

[avr]

The War Priests selfbuffs to AC are both less than what the Cleric gets "automatically" and on a slower progression.
Warpriests have the same caster level and spell list as clerics and can apply those buffs (e.g. shield of faith) as swift actions, sacred armor is in addition to their spell list. Clerics will get magic vestment (etc.) sooner but do not get any class features besides channeling, domain powers and spellcasting 'automatically'.

Or if AC = Animal Companion here (AnC is sometimes used to clarify) then note that share spells only works with spells from a class which grants a companion and fervor only works on spells cast on yourself. You could buff yourself as a swift action then cast a spell on the AnC as a standard but not both on the AnC.

[Beheld]

Warpriests have the same caster level and spell list as clerics and can apply those buffs (e.g. shield of faith) as swift actions, sacred armor is in addition to their spell list. Clerics will get magic vestment (etc.) sooner but do not get any class features besides channeling, domain powers and spellcasting 'automatically'.

1) Clerics do indeed get their spells per day automatically.

2) Magic Vestment gives a +2 per four caster levels enhancement bonus to your armor class. Warpriests get Magic Vestment later, and then still cast it, spending a greater amount of resources to do so than a Cleric, because it is better than their class feature. This means that Clerics just increase AC better than War Priests, because Sacred Armor does not stack with Magic Vestment.

In effect, the only even remotely acceptable use of Sacred Armor is to give yourself energy resistance, and even that still is going to be no where near as good as just casting the spell, and only worthwhile because you can get energy resistance to another type of energy at the same time if your DM takes a super aggressive approach to the combining magical effects rules.

3) Casting spells as a swift action a day a few times on yourself is not totally worthless. But when you compare it to being a spell level or two behind at all levels, the benefit from it is not worth the cost for someone who wants to be a support character who helps the team. Telling your friends that it will be three levels before you can cast Raise Dead or Restoration even though a Cleric could have it now, but don't worry, because you can swift action shield of faith yourself! is going to be no consolation at all to your dead or level drained PCs.

[Arc_knight25]

Maybe Cleric//Inquisitor would be a good combination. Both are wisdom based, both have religious ties from a character development point of view.

Take the Hidden Priest archetype for cleric and the Heretic archetype for Inquisitor.

Both give you a good back ground to build on and is thematic to the campaign setting.

The Hidden Priest lets you hide your type of casting ability masking it to another type of casting. Also gives you the ability to cast a spell without verbal or somatic components, which is good for casting enchantment spells to dominate while in mid conversation.

The Heretic is good for slipperiness giving you bonuses to stealth and bluff. Also giving you a Judgment to get you out of a tight spot by distracting your opponent after a hit and rolling a stealth check to slip away.