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Luciandevine
2016-07-01, 06:47 PM
I know that this is a topic that has been debated quite a few times, but I find myself about to get into another 3.5 campaign with a Warblade, and wanted to bring it up again. I have read the descriptions several times over and only just recently thought of the best way to handle it, in my opinion. I would very much like to hear other peoples' opinions on the subject, if they are still interested though.

Anyway, with that out of the way, here is my assessment of the situation.

It clearly states in the maneuver that you are making a melee attack. Nowhere in the description of this does it limit anything about the actual attack itself, note that here I am referring to just the attack roll, not the damage. Being that all attack rolls can be a critical hit, I feel that Insightful Strike and it's greater counterpart can crit as well. Furthermore, I believe that the critical threat range for this attack is the same as any other attack with the weapon.

On page 140 of the Player's Handbook it says, in so many words, something like this.

"A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.
Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit."

In this case the weapon itself is being used for the attack roll and has it's critical threat range clearly stated.

The part where people tend to have problems comes next, and that problem is that if they allow it to crit, how much damage does both it, and it's greater counterpart do?

To me, the critical damage of Insightful Strike is answered by the referece from page 140. Though the weapon itself was performing the attack roll, and hitting the vital area, the weapon is not actually dealing the damage. The damage itself comes from mind of the attacker and the concentration check.

Page 64 of the BoNS says this.

"As part of this maneuver, make a melee attack. If this attack hits, you do not deal normal damage. Instead, you make a Concentration check and deal damage equal to the check result. Your Strength modifier, your weapon’s magical properties (if any), and any other extra damage you normally deal do not modify this check (including extra damage from class abilities, feats, or spells)."

Because the damage is a replacement effect I once again feel that the damage can crit. The problem people have though, comes from figuring how much damage the crit should do. The answer to this question, in my mind, once again comes from page 140 of the PHB. The critical modifier for this damage is not clearly stated anywhere, and thus defaults to X2.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________

With Insightful Strike out of the way, now it's time to address Greater Insightful Strike

Greater Insightful Strike (P64 of BoNS) says

This maneuver functions like insightful strike, except that you deal damage equal to 2 × your concentration check result.

People see this 2XConcentration check and when they think critical hit, they naturally think 2x2=4 on a critical hit. However, the PBH has us covered here as well. On page 304 of the PHB it says this.

"Sometimes a special rule makes you multiply a number or a die roll. As long as you’re applying a single multiplier, multiply the number normally. When two or more multipliers apply to any abstract value (such as a modifier or a die roll), however, combine them into a single multiple, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. Thus, a double (×2) and a double (×2) applied to the same number results in a triple (×3, because 2 + 1 = 3). "

In conclusion, in my opinion, both maneuvers should be handled like this.

Insightful Strike: Attack roll is made using your weapon's normal attack roll value, applying any and all situational modifiers. Damage dealt is equal to 1XConcentration check on a normal hit and 2XConcentration check on a critical hit.

Insightful Strike Greater: Attack roll is made using your weapon's normal attack roll value, applying any and all situational modifiers. Damage dealt is equal to 2XConcentration check on a normal hit and 3XConcentration check on a critical hit.

erikun
2016-07-01, 10:10 PM
Do you want a full technical reading of the rules?


Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit."

If this attack hits, you do not deal normal damage... Your Strength modifier, your weapon’s magical properties (if any), and any other extra damage you normally deal do not modify this check (including extra damage from class abilities, feats, or spells)."
If anything, I am led to believe that Insightful Strike was not meant to critical. Or to be more accurate, it wasn't mean to be multiplied on a critical. The weapon's normal damage is ignored - it is zero for the attack, basically - and so doubling it or otherwise multiplying it would not increase the total damage any.

You're free to ignore that as DM/players in the game, but the topic might come up.


"Sometimes a special rule makes you multiply a number or a die roll. As long as you’re applying a single multiplier, multiply the number normally. When two or more multipliers apply to any abstract value (such as a modifier or a die roll), however, combine them into a single multiple, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. Thus, a double (×2) and a double (×2) applied to the same number results in a triple (×3, because 2 + 1 = 3). "
This rule applies with something would be receiving more than one multiplier from more than one source. Multipliers like the critical hit are intended to do "+1 weapon damage" each, basically, with the (x2) being a shorthand for that. Thus, a double (x2) plus a double (x2) is a triple (x3) because what it all REALLY means is adding a "+1 weapon damage" to another "+1 weapon damage".

If you've played D&D4e, then it's the +[W] and +5[W] effects.

More specifically for the ruling, "a multiplier" means a specific thing in D&D3e. Critical hits have a multiplier. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits) But that doesn't mean that everything which is multiplied is considered a multiplier. Wielding a one-handed or two-handed weapon in two hands applies 1½ times the character's STR bonus to attack damage, but if the weapon causes a crit, that isn't recalculated to 2½ times STR bonus. It takes the full damage (weapon + 1½ STR bonus) and then multiplies that by the x2 multiplier. Similarly, Power Attack gives twice the bonus sacrificed to damage with two-handed weapons, but a critical would fully multiply that. It wouldn't take apart the damage dealt so that the character gets triple the Power Attack bonus; the character would just get (weapon + 1½ STR bonus + 2x Power Attack bonus) and then multiply the whole thing by the x2 multiplier.

Again, though, it's your D&D game so whatever the players at the table determine, should be fine. I'm not sure the two even would interact in that manner (see the first half of my comment) so I don't know if there is any "official" ruling on the topic either way.

Luciandevine
2016-07-02, 10:30 AM
The difference in this case, though, is that there is no damage being dealt over and above the weapon's normal damage. The damage is being replaced completely. It is for this reason specifically that people, myself included believe that the ability can crit. The problem that people have is deciding what the crit modifier for the damage is. If a scythe is used for example, would an Insightful Strike critical hit do 2XConcentration check or 4XConcentration check?

The above question that is so commonly asked gets even more common when Insightful Strike, Greater is the ability in question. If a scythe is used once again, the question changes to wondering if an Insightful Strike, Greater crits does it do 3XConcentration check or a whopping 8XConcentration check?

It is not so much the issue of whether the attack can critical hit that people have questions about, so much as the multiplier that the critical hit would use. It is for this reason specifically that I bring the topic up again.