Monk that dumps wisdom

[Naanomi]

Monks are pretty MAD already, so multiclassing with them can be tough. Still, I wanted to combine the two most popular dips (warlock 2, rogue 1) with a warlock and came up with this...

Half elf rogue 1/warlock 2/monk 17
8/16/16/8/13/14

Level 1 is rogue stuff, 2 gives Hex and Greenflame Blade, 3 gives Mage Armor and Devil's sight (I think Old One is best?), then a stabby Shadow Monk beyond that.

Great scouting; respectable damage; free feats; high Con... without giving up much beside two AC and stunning fist DC

Thoughts?

[RickAllison]

Monks are pretty MAD already, so multiclassing with them can be tough. Still, I wanted to combine the two most popular dips (warlock 2, rogue 1) with a warlock and came up with this...

Half elf rogue 1/warlock 2/monk 17
8/16/16/8/13/14

Level 1 is rogue stuff, 2 gives Hex and Greenflame Blade, 3 gives Mage Armor and Devil's sight (I think Old One is best?), then a stabby Shadow Monk beyond that.

Great scouting; respectable damage; free feats; high Con... without giving up much beside two AC and stunning fist DC

Thoughts?

Shadow is good for this, as is Sun Soul. Neither rely much on Wisdom. Long Death with those levels can be pretty good as well; the fear effect won't work as well, and there is a little less temporary HP (or fewer if you say hit points, to focus on grammar), but the level 11 ability is a fantastic way to burn excess ki when Stunning Strike doesn't work.

Edit: with Mage Armor, Barb's UD, or Dragon Sorc, anything but Open Hand can be used.

[Naanomi]

I liked Shadow since I was going for 'scout' role-wise... sneak around with expertise: stealth and shadow-monk powers, telepathy back intel to party)... also gives supply to the much maligned 'darkness/devil sight' (which I haven't seen as game breaking even by those trying to abuse it).

However I will say I was very tempted to do Undying Warlock/Long Death Monk for flavor synergy (Storyline becomes Grave-Robber -> Vengeful Spirits bind into service -> Escape servitude by attuning own body to death). Both are even in the same book for AL compliance

[Fflewddur Fflam]

I personally think stunning strike is the number one "look at what I can do" ability for the monk, it can totally turn the battle in the party's favor over and over again. Having a monk with a low stunning strike DC is just not worth it in my book. Not to mention the low AC.

[djreynolds]

You could leave con at 12 and put more into wisdom. You can dodge also a bonus action with patient defense, if you need to help out the front line and take some heat off the tank. Not getting hit, you should need less HP.

8/16/12/10/14/16, this is better.

[Naanomi]

I personally think stunning strike is the number one "look at what I can do" ability for the monk, it can totally turn the battle in the party's favor over and over again. Having a monk with a low stunning strike DC is just not worth it in my book. Not to mention the low AC.
Yeah ends up feeling more like a rogue/fighter than a monk in some ways (in combat anyways); but I'm OK with that... scouting, decent combat survivability, Hex + Flurry works well, Darkness/Devil's sight online... I'd guess it will be playable

[Klorox]

Unarmored defense wouldn't stack with mage armor anyway, so that warlock dip is fantastic for you. I like it!

I don't think green flame blade works with martial arts though. I'd check on that before moving forward.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Unarmored defense wouldn't stack with mage armor anyway, so that warlock dip is fantastic for you. I like it!

I don't think green flame blade works with martial arts though. I'd check on that before moving forward.

Both Green-Flame Blade and Booming Blade require a "melee attack with a weapon" so you can certainly use a monk weapon like shortsword or quarterstaff to set those cantrips off but you can't use unarmed strike because that was errated away to not be considered a weapon.

Using either Green-Flame Blade or Booming Blade with Monk is ultimately a bad option, though, because since you are casting a spell, you can't use the monk's extra attack or bonus unarmed attacks. It's taking the Monk's ability to do 3 (or even 4 with flurry of blows) melee attacks and throwing them out the window for the spell attack which is one melee attack plus the spell's additional damage. BB and GFB are much more efficient with a class that only has one attack.

[Naanomi]

GFB is a band-aid to get me through levels before extra attack comes online, though there is probably some corner-case where it will still be useful

[Fflewddur Fflam]

GFB is a band-aid to get me through levels before extra attack comes online, though there is probably some corner-case where it will still be useful

The thing about GFB, just like BB, is it doesn't get really good until level 11 and above. At low levels, it's pretty weak. But like you said, there could be some cases later on where it will be useful.

[ES Curse]

I was just thinking about this!

The thing with a build like this is you need to decide whether you're a Monk dipped in some other class or a Monk/x hybrid. For dips, you need a really good reason for dumping WIS. For the other unarmored defense classes:

-Barbarian/Monk gets more HP, but that's about it. Remember that you already put your bonus action toward martial arts, so getting those bonus action attacks isn't really helpful. At best a dip for Rage, at worst it's redundant.
-Dragon Sorc/4 Elements Monk sounds cool ... wait, what do you mean Metamagic works on monk spells? DEAR GODS.
-Warlock/Monk: Goes great with a Shadow Monk. Just dip 2 levels for the Mage Armor and Devil's Sight invocations, as you don't gain an awful lot after that.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

-Dragon Sorc/4 Elements Monk sounds cool ... wait, what do you mean Metamagic works on monk spells? DEAR GODS.


Whaa? I never thought of that! Does this actually make the 4 Elements Monk viable???

[Klorox]

Holy crap!

[ES Curse]

The Metamagic descriptions do not specify a class, but Wild Magic does, so it is as RAW as it gets. In fact, all spells from 4 elements are already in the Sorcerer spell list.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

The Metamagic descriptions do not specify a class, but Wild Magic does, so it is as RAW as it gets. In fact, all spells from 4 elements are already in the Sorcerer spell list.

It's a keen observation, I'm just not sure in the end that it's worth it. They should have just made 4 Elements Monk like Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster and given them a spellcasting table like that revolving around elemental spells using Wisdom as the spellcasting ability. Using Ki for those spells messed it all up.

[ES Curse]

Agreed, and someone with a homebrew-positive DM might be able to make something work. For RAW, this is just trying to turn a bad hand into a mildly unpleasant one.

I actually agree with using ki because it reduces the amount of resources to track. 4E Monks should have gotten a bonus to their ki pool to compensate for relying on it much more for the subclass. Due to how ki recharges, balancing it relative to the Warlock rather than the EK/AT would be preferred. Focus on cantrips which don't require ki, with a small pool of spells that you use when you want a more specialized tool.

[Dalebert]

The Mage Armor invocation is just 1 more armor than what a warlock would already have from light armor. I can never justify the opportunity cost of some better invocation. I guess in this case you need it because the monk loses stuff for armor and it mostly makes up for unarmored defense.

Shadow monks are FUN, but they don't seem that great on overall DPS. I've got one and I ultimately rebuilt so I could do the 2 level lock dip despite not initially planning to but it's not as helpful as I'd hoped. Hex seems nice but it's surprising how often necrotic isn't helpful. It's also surprising how often Darkness isn't very helpful despite being able to see through it. When it is helpful, the action to cast it is still pricey and I can't also benefit from Hex.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

The Mage Armor invocation is just 1 more armor than what a warlock would already have from light armor. I can never justify the opportunity cost of some better invocation. I guess in this case you need it because the monk loses stuff for armor and it mostly makes up for unarmored defense.

Shadow monks are FUN, but they don't seem that great on overall DPS. I've got one and I ultimately rebuilt so I could do the 2 level lock dip despite not initially planning to but it's not as helpful as I'd hoped. Hex seems nice but it's surprising how often necrotic isn't helpful. It's also surprising how often Darkness isn't very helpful despite being able to see through it. When it is helpful, the action to cast it is still pricey and I can't also benefit from Hex.

Yeah, I've often looked at the Shadow Monk build and went "but why?". I have a hard time ever justifying not using Open Hand or Long Death monk, although I want to run a Sun Soul monk in Curse of Strahd, just for the flavor.

[ES Curse]

Monks I want to run some time in the future:
-Dragon Sorcerer of the 4 Elements (Maybe go Druid or Cleric instead of Sorc)
-Sun Soul Light Cleric
-Open Hand Battlemaster

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Monks I want to run some time in the future:
-Dragon Sorcerer of the 4 Elements (Maybe go Druid or Cleric instead of Sorc)
-Sun Soul Light Cleric
-Open Hand Battlemaster

Still on my docket:
Long Death Monk 12/Bladesinger Wizard 8
Open Hand Monk 8/Vengeance Paladin 4/Draconic Sorcerer 8
Long Death Monk 14/Assassin Rogue 6
Sun Soul Monk 12/Trickery Cleric 8
Long Death Monk 12/Hunter Ranger 3/Swashbuckler Rogue 5
Long Death Monk 16/Totem Barbarian 4

Monks.... I've been playing them since the 70's, love 'em.

[Klorox]

Monks.... I've been playing them since the 70's, love 'em.

lol, what did you play in 2e?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yeah, I've often looked at the Shadow Monk build and went "but why?". I have a hard time ever justifying not using Open Hand or Long Death monk, although I want to run a Sun Soul monk in Curse of Strahd, just for the flavor.
I'm playing a Shadow Monk in Curse of Strahd and it's a lot of fun. They give up a bit of combat power in exchange for a massive amount of utility-- between repeated Pass Without Traces, at-will teleports and at-will invisibility, you're probably the best infiltrator in the edition.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

I'm playing a Shadow Monk in Curse of Strahd and it's a lot of fun. They give up a bit of combat power in exchange for a massive amount of utility-- between repeated Pass Without Traces, at-will teleports and at-will invisibility, you're probably the best infiltrator in the edition.

I can see that, I guess being an infiltrator ain't my bag. I like my monks to be bruisers.

[MeeposFire]

lol, what did you play in 2e?

Discounting just sticking with the mystic in D&D during that time there were at least 3 different types of monks in 2e.

[Klorox]

Discounting just sticking with the mystic in D&D during that time there were at least 3 different types of monks in 2e.

I don't remember any monks, except for an awful kit.

Basic D&D had a mystic.

[MeeposFire]

I don't remember any monks, except for an awful kit.

Basic D&D had a mystic.

In addition to that kit there was a monk priest class you could find it in Faiths and Avatars among other places. There was also a monk class more based on the 3e monk.

[ES Curse]

Update on the Dragon Sorc concept:
At 1st level-
Half Elf Monk
8/16/10/8/16/14 (after applying race)
-play up to level 5 as a "standard" 4E monk, you should take the burning hands discipline-
At level 6, take 4 levels of Sorc. You should probably take Storm, but Draconic works too. 4 levels is important for the extra cantrip and ASI.
-resume taking monk levels. At monk 6, you want shatter and thunderwave-
Good level 20 distributions are Monk16/Sorc4 and Monk12/Sorc8. This is even more MAD than a standard monk, so you'll have to bite the bulette here. The extra Sorc levels are best for a more "caster" feel. If you want them, take those after monk 12.

Cool features of the build:
-CANTRIPS
-Metamagic makes your spell equivalence disciplines much better
-Quicken Thunderwave then Ray of Frost is a thing
-Having actual Sorc spells on the side expands your options
-Shocking Grasp anyone? (can't stop gushing about these cantrips!)
-You get the SCAG cantrips! And, because you make a melee attack, you get to FoB after!
-If you take the extra 4 Sorc levels, you get Heart of the Storm with Shatter/Thunderwave or Elemental Affinity to boost your Fire/Cold damage

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Update on the Dragon Sorc concept:
This is even more MAD than a standard monk, so you'll have to bite the bulette here.

I see what you did there.



-You get the SCAG cantrips! And, because you make a melee attack, you get to FoB after!


Unfortunately, that does not work. With Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade, you are still taking the action "cast a spell" and yes, you make a melee attack as part of the spell but in RAW terms you are still casting a spell, not taking an "attack action" which is what is needed to set off your unarmed strike bonus action. You COULD, however, spend 2 sorcery points to Quicken the spell, casting it as a bonus action. That would enable you to do a melee attack (and extra attack of Monk level 5) as your action, but of course you couldn't do flurry of blows or anything because that's a bonus action and you already spent that with the Quickened spell.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Update on the Dragon Sorc concept:
At 1st level-
Half Elf Monk
8/16/10/8/16/14 (after applying race)


Actually, Half-Elf should be 8/16/10/8/16/16 after applying race, you forgot the +2 Cha.

You know, I was thinking about your Elemental Monk 12/Draconic Sorc 8. If you took the Fireball ki spell for the monk at 11th level, and you were to get the typical recommended adventuring day of 2 short rests a day followed by a long rest, you could cast fireball from your 12th monk NINE TIMES A DAY (4 ki x 9=36 ki which is what you would have from two short rests in a day). Casting fireball 9 times without ever having to burn one of your Sorcerer spell slots. That's pretty blasty. Hmmmm. This looks viable to me.

[ES Curse]

The problem seems to be getting this to come online. In terms of power spikes:
-Get Martial Arts at level 1
-Ki at level 2
-4E spellcasting at level 3 (just burning hands most likely)
-ASI at level 4 (DEX should be bumped first, WIS and CHA can deal with a +3 for now)
-Extra Attack and Stunning Strike at 5
-Take the first Sorc level at level 6, get cantrips and some 1st level spells, 1st level Origin feature
-Sorc 2 gives Sorcery Points
-Sorc 3 gives metamagic
-Take the 6th level of Monk, swap attunement and get another spell
-Sorc 4 catches you up on feats/ASI

You don't really have everything until level 9/10. Until level 6, you're still playing a standard monk. Depending on the party, you could start Sorc and have cantrips your entire career, as both classes don't rely too much on their starting proficiencies.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

The problem seems to be getting this to come online. In terms of power spikes:
-Get Martial Arts at level 1
-Ki at level 2
-4E spellcasting at level 3 (just burning hands most likely)
-ASI at level 4 (DEX should be bumped first, WIS and CHA can deal with a +3 for now)
-Extra Attack and Stunning Strike at 5
-Take the first Sorc level at level 6, get cantrips and some 1st level spells, 1st level Origin feature
-Sorc 2 gives Sorcery Points
-Sorc 3 gives metamagic
-Take the 6th level of Monk, swap attunement and get another spell
-Sorc 4 catches you up on feats/ASI

You don't really have everything until level 9/10. Until level 6, you're still playing a standard monk. Depending on the party, you could start Sorc and have cantrips your entire career, as both classes don't rely too much on their starting proficiencies.

I'd recommend starting with Sorcerer at level 1, that way you get Con saves proficiency for concentration plus your bread-and-butter cantrips like Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade, and Fire Bolt.
You then do levels 2-13 as elemental monk, getting the monk spells burning hands, hold person, and fireball. You then do the remainder of your levels as Sorcerer. You want to get the monk fireball as early as you can, which is admittedly, not super-early at Sorc 1/M 11. It's definitely a multiclass that's going to shine more in the higher levels. Getting the Mobile feat is a must because you won't have many hp with 10 Con and when you do do melee, you'll want to get in there, do Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade, and then get the hell out of there.

That being said, a M12/S8 Half-Elf could end up with these stats plus the Mobile feat:
Str 8 Dex 18 Con 10 Int 8 Wis 18 Cha 20

Not too shabby. You could always exchange that Cha 20 for Dex 20 instead. But you have two spellcasting abilities, Wis and Cha. The DC saves for your burning hands, hold person, and fireball will come from your Wis, while all of your sorc spells will have DC saves from your Cha.

[ES Curse]

I'd recommend starting with Sorcerer at level 1, that way you get Con saves proficiency for concentration plus your bread-and-butter cantrips like Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade, and Fire Bolt.
You then do levels 2-13 as elemental monk, getting the monk spells burning hands, hold person, and fireball. You then do the remainder of your levels as Sorcerer. You want to get the monk fireball as early as you can, which is admittedly, not super-early at Sorc 1/M 11. It's definitely a multiclass that's going to shine more in the higher levels. Getting the Mobile feat is a must because you won't have many hp with 10 Con and when you do do melee, you'll want to get in there, do Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade, and then get the hell out of there.

That being said, a M12/S8 Half-Elf could end up with these stats plus the Mobile feat:
Str 8 Dex 18 Con 10 Int 8 Wis 18 Cha 20

Not too shabby. You could always exchange that Cha 20 for Dex 20 instead. But you have two spellcasting abilities, Wis and Cha. The DC saves for your burning hands, hold person, and fireball will come from your Wis, while all of your sorc spells will have DC saves from your Cha.

I feel a lot of this depends on if you want a Monk with spells or a Sorcerer with Martial Arts. You don't need to emphasize CHA beyond the required 13 if you only take 4 levels, as you're mainly doing so for the Metamagic perks. If a 4th-level Sorcerer converts all their spell slots to metamagic, they have 14 Sorcery Points. If the Monk uses all his ki (which he will, as 4E monks are very ki-intensive) and has 2 short rests a day, you're looking at 21 ki points for a 5th-level monk, which translates to 10 first-level spells cast as a monk. If you go more heavily into CHA to buff your cantrips and use a few Sorc Spell Slots for their intended purpose every now and then, you should be pretty solid.

I would say what you start as mostly depends on your party role. If the party needs more ranged damage, you need to start Sorcerer. If the party needs melee power/mobility, Monk is a better starting point. The biggest power spikes for the two classes are Sorc 3 (introduction of Metamagic) and Monk 5 (Extra Attack and Stunning Blow). You need to get one of those ASAP, so if you start Sorcerer you should just play a regular Sorcerer until level 3/4 so you already have Metamagic when you start the 4E tradition.

Another merit to only ever taking 4 Sorcerer levels is trading off Sorcery Points/Spell Slots for Ki, which is good for using more monk features and warrants taking one or two of the non-spell disciplines.

[ES Curse]

Also, it seems that the Metamagic trick applies to the Shadow Monk's spells too. Given that none of the shadow features use Wisdom, you can dump it with Dragon Sorcerer levels (equivalent to +3 WIS modifer). You do make your Stunning Strike feature much worse, but you can spam Quickened Darkness to get advantage on the turn you cast it. As monk spells already remove the material component cost, using a Subtle Spell removes ALL component restrictions. It might be better to just tack that onto a Rouge though, as hiding in Darkness makes you much less likely to be fighting in melee.

[MaxWilson]

lol, what did you play in 2e?

For all we know he might have been playing 1E for the last forty years. 5E has brought a lot of old grognards onboard.