Advice for a Bard of Lore?

[ZZTRaider]

I'm getting ready to start playing in a new campaign -- my first real foray into 5E -- and I'm trying to finalize my plans for a College of Lore Bard. The rest of the party is a Frenzy Barbarian, a Pact of the Tome Warlock, and a Gunslinger (Matt Mercer's homebrew from Critical Role).

I think we'll have plenty of damage available, so I really want to focus on skills, support, and healing. We're using the standard stat array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) and I've already settled on Half-Elf for my race.

I've read the Bard guides, but I'd love more insight from experience at the table.

How good is the 1 level dip into Life Cleric in practice? I feel like it fits the character's personality and backstory, and is potentially really good at increasing my own survivability through the shield and better armor as well as the party's survivability through better healing. Is it worth the slowed Bard progression and the 13 Wisdom requirement? If I go that route, should I just jump straight to heavy armor and use Strength instead of Dexterity?

I'm having some difficulty figuring out how I want to use my Ability Score Increases, which of course affects what stats I want to start odd. Obviously I want to end up at 20 Charisma, but there are a lot of tempting feats... Actor, Inspiring Leader, Resilient (Constitution), and War Caster all seem really good. Prioritizing them, though, seems pretty rough and comes at the expense of raw stats. I think my best bet if I took all of them would be to shoot for Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14 (12+1 racial+1 feat), Int 10, Wis 14 (13+1 racial), Cha 20 (15+2 racial+2 ASI+1 feat).

Any thoughts or advice?

[Townopolis]

My recommendation is to take either Resilient (con) or Warcaster and Inspiring Leader. Also, from a metagame perspective, you're probably better off starting with 17 CHA, 14 CON, 14 DEX, 13 WIS, 10 INT, & 8 STR. That includes putting your Half-elf options in DEX and WIS. Then take:

+2 CHA @ 4
Resilient (Con) @ 8
Inspiring Leader @ 12
+1 CHA, +1 CON @ 16
whatever you want @ 19

You can also swap Inspiring Leader and the +1/+1 ASI, if you want. That's probably more powerful, but I prefer to leave boosting my primary to 20 for the last possible ASI--it may not be the most optimal choice, but I want to get my neat feats as early as possible, and that last +1 to everything is the sort of boring-yet-powerful boost I find appropriate for the last few levels.

[Specter]

Playing one right now. In combat, I'm a debuffer, screwing chumps with cutting words/hypnotic pattern/bane. Doing pretty good. Outside of combat, I'm the social god, expertising all social skills and solving all talking problems. Expertise really defines your character.

If going Life Cleric, be ready to dump STR and INT, and picking many healing spells. You could dump DEX instead, but that's just bad on so many levels. But as 5e gives us good resting options, I'd just take Healing Word and be done with it.

As for feats, Resilient is better than War Caster because Lore Bards tend not to have both hands busy most of the time. Actor is good IF you have an odd CHA, otherwise it's okay. Inspiring Leader is very DM-dependant ("you don't have for speeches, roll init").

[Townopolis]

Actually, Inspiring Leader is just something you do every time you have a short rest. It doesn't have to happen right before battle, and the THP from it don't have a duration. They just hang around until you use them.

So, basically, the feat increases the time it takes to complete a short rest to 70 minutes and gives everyone THP at the end.

[bid]

You really want to start 16 16 14 12 10 8 with the standard array. Dipping life works best if you fiddle with point buy, something close to 16 14 14 13 11 10.

You will never get an opportunity attack since you are a prime target. Keeping your weapon hand empty is a much better deal with Dex14. This makes warcaster mostly useless.

Your best feat is inspiring leader, it will do more "healing" than any spell you can cast. You always have time at the end of your rest for your little speech and don't need to wait until the battle is at hand.

Resilient (Con) is another great choice (except if you pick warcaster, never do both). Actor is mostly fluff but can be great for RP.

[Herobizkit]

I've had a player in my game go Life Cleric 1/Bard X and it hasn't hurt him or his spell progression at all. It's a nice trick to add to the Bard's already deep pockets. Half-Elf Bard is how you win D&D nowadays, so that's great. ^_^

(I was a notorious Half-Elf Bard/Cleric multi-classer back in 2e.)

My views on healing:
Heals are great in emergencies but they're better served OUTSIDE of combat than inside. I have often found that Warrior-types with a dedicated healer will get lazy/more brazen and take unnecessary risks, expecting the healer to back them up, which in turn drains the healer's resources faster than not-battle healing.

If you really want to "wargame" the battles, you need two things: Control and Buff/Debuffs.
* Control powers hamper your enemies by preventing or altering their actions. Sleep is your low-level Win Bomb, for example.
* Buff/Debuffs give your team a higher chance of success or lowering the enemies' chances of success. Bless and Bane are great for this, especially when paired with your Bardic Inspiration (if you're a 5-man team, fr'ex, Bless three people and use your bonus action to Inspire the fourth person who needs their next big hit to land)

Anyhow, I've started to ramble. Life 1/Bard X is great, so long as your DM allows multi-classing. ^_^

[djreynolds]

I'm getting ready to start playing in a new campaign -- my first real foray into 5E -- and I'm trying to finalize my plans for a College of Lore Bard. The rest of the party is a Frenzy Barbarian, a Pact of the Tome Warlock, and a Gunslinger (Matt Mercer's homebrew from Critical Role).

I think we'll have plenty of damage available, so I really want to focus on skills, support, and healing. We're using the standard stat array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) and I've already settled on Half-Elf for my race.

I've read the Bard guides, but I'd love more insight from experience at the table.

How good is the 1 level dip into Life Cleric in practice? I feel like it fits the character's personality and backstory, and is potentially really good at increasing my own survivability through the shield and better armor as well as the party's survivability through better healing. Is it worth the slowed Bard progression and the 13 Wisdom requirement? If I go that route, should I just jump straight to heavy armor and use Strength instead of Dexterity?

I'm having some difficulty figuring out how I want to use my Ability Score Increases, which of course affects what stats I want to start odd. Obviously I want to end up at 20 Charisma, but there are a lot of tempting feats... Actor, Inspiring Leader, Resilient (Constitution), and War Caster all seem really good. Prioritizing them, though, seems pretty rough and comes at the expense of raw stats. I think my best bet if I took all of them would be to shoot for Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14 (12+1 racial+1 feat), Int 10, Wis 14 (13+1 racial), Cha 20 (15+2 racial+2 ASI+1 feat).

Any thoughts or advice?

What do you want out of this character? I would think knowledge cleric is best. Life cleric is very good, but heavy armor comes with a 15 strength TAX. You are the party face and brain of the party all in one. You get jack of all trades. Is there a cleric in the party?

How about straight bard? Or a dip in ranger? Grab archery style? What are you looking to get out of this?

[ZZTRaider]

What do you want out of this character? I would think knowledge cleric is best. Life cleric is very good, but heavy armor comes with a 15 strength TAX. You are the party face and brain of the party all in one. You get jack of all trades. Is there a cleric in the party?

How about straight bard? Or a dip in ranger? Grab archery style? What are you looking to get out of this?

If I don't take a Cleric dip, I'd definitely go straight Bard. (My understanding is there no real reason to take level 20 in Bard, but that seems like a thing to deal with if we get to that point.) The rest of party is Barbarian, Warlock, and Gunslinger (homebrew from Critical Role), so no other healing in party. The Warlock has picked up proficiency in all of the "knowledge" skills.

I'm definitely a bit wary of heavy armor. I don't think anyone in the group will be particularly heavily armored, so stealth should be a viable option for us; disadvantage on that seems like a potentially poor choice. Picking up medium armor and shield proficiencies seems like a really good idea, though. I don't really see my Dexterity getting high enough for light armor to really compete there.

As far as Life vs Knowledge... Knowledge is a little tempting for the expertise, but that's kind of the extent of it, I think. Having command and identify always prepared doesn't seem nearly as useful as having bless and cure wounds from the Life Domain. Even ignoring the heavy armor proficiency, the extra healing seems handy. Essentially, Knowledge wins out on the proficiencies, but I think Life wins overall.

[CaptAl]

Life is a great, if boring choice. Heavy armor is meh for you. The spells prepared are solid, I'm looking at you Bless, but the extra healing from Disciple of Life is mostly useless on Cure Wounds as you'll likely be using it with your less than ideal wisdom score.

Bards are fine healers on their own. With Life Cleric 1 and a Magical Secret spent on goodberry/aura of vitality you become kinda silly from a pure HP output perspective.

Bard 20 isn't impressive, but honestly, when's the last time you spent any significant time at level 20 with a character?

[Townopolis]

In short, there are three "ideal" points to dip cleric:

At level 6, after you get the super-useful Font of Inspiration but early enough to benefit you for many levels.
Level 7, after you get your first Magical Secrets, probably including Aura of Vigor, and is about the same otherwise as the previous point.
Level 20, because Bard 20 might as well be a dead level. You have nothing (worthwhile) to lose.

The first two are for if you really want to pump your healing. The last is what you do by default if you actually manage to hit 20 and have a decent wisdom score.

[bid]

In short, there are three "ideal" points to dip cleric:
Fourth one:
- around level 1 for medium armor + shield

[djreynolds]

If I don't take a Cleric dip, I'd definitely go straight Bard. (My understanding is there no real reason to take level 20 in Bard, but that seems like a thing to deal with if we get to that point.) The rest of party is Barbarian, Warlock, and Gunslinger (homebrew from Critical Role), so no other healing in party. The Warlock has picked up proficiency in all of the "knowledge" skills.

I'm definitely a bit wary of heavy armor. I don't think anyone in the group will be particularly heavily armored, so stealth should be a viable option for us; disadvantage on that seems like a potentially poor choice. Picking up medium armor and shield proficiencies seems like a really good idea, though. I don't really see my Dexterity getting high enough for light armor to really compete there.

As far as Life vs Knowledge... Knowledge is a little tempting for the expertise, but that's kind of the extent of it, I think. Having command and identify always prepared doesn't seem nearly as useful as having bless and cure wounds from the Life Domain. Even ignoring the heavy armor proficiency, the extra healing seems handy. Essentially, Knowledge wins out on the proficiencies, but I think Life wins overall.

Check out the UA Favored Soul, sorcerer archetype? Ask the DM if can you do that. This may be a better fit for the party. And you can choose the life domain and wear medium armor and get valuable AoEs for the party and get bonus known healing spells. Check it out, though your DM may rule against it.

I might even recommend wizard or sorcerer for the party with a touch of cleric

[bid]

Check out the UA Favored Soul, sorcerer archetype?
It allows you to dump Wis, but you mis too many good life features:
- no access to generic cleric spells, such as bless
- no discipline of life to boost your bard healing spells

You might as well not dip and wait for level 6 secrets to grab better healing spells.


I think vuman feat would be the cheapest way to gain medium armor, followed by fighter. Sorcerer might be interesting for blaster cantrips, but not for healing.

[djreynolds]

It allows you to dump Wis, but you mis too many good life features:
- no access to generic cleric spells, such as bless
- no discipline of life to boost your bard healing spells

You might as well not dip and wait for level 6 secrets to grab better healing spells.


I think vuman feat would be the cheapest way to gain medium armor, followed by fighter. Sorcerer might be interesting for blaster cantrips, but not for healing.

What's their warlock doing, bladelock or EB type?

He could just play a life cleric period. Or a tempest cleric with a touch of bard. It depends on the warlock, as the fighter is ranged. The barbarian could use company.

Strength based cleric, heavy armor, touch of bard. 1 attack plus spiritual weapon, good spells, and some inspiration and expertise in social skills.

[ZZTRaider]

The warlock is going for Pact of the Tome. Past that, I don't know.

Granted, yes, I could go variant Human or straight Life Cleric or ask about the Favored Soul, but that's not what I want to do. I'm playing a Half-Elf Bard, and the only remaining question is how to make the most of that.

It's sounding like I should avoid heavy armor, even if I take a dip into Life Cleric. Taking it or not could go either way, but I need to decide so I can allocate my stats correctly.

[bid]

The warlock is going for Pact of the Tome. Past that, I don't know.

Granted, yes, I could go variant Human or straight Life Cleric or ask about the Favored Soul, but that's not what I want to do. I'm playing a Half-Elf Bard, and the only remaining question is how to make the most of that.

It's sounding like I should avoid heavy armor, even if I take a dip into Life Cleric. Taking it or not could go either way, but I need to decide so I can allocate my stats correctly.
As I said, standard array yields Str8 Dex15 Con13+1 Int10 Wis12+1 Cha14+2, which is not optimal. [or Dex16 Con13, but you'd need resilient (Con) fast]

If you fiddle it a little you can go from 15 14 13 12 10 8 to 14 14 13 13 11 8, which yields Str8 Dex13+1 Con13+1 Int11 Wis14 Cha14+2. This is your best stats for bard / life.
[Dex15->14, Int10->11, Wis13->14]


And yes, medium armor is best for casters, because Str/Dex can stay low.

[energyscholar]

@OP: Sounds like you are creating an excellent support character. Your PC will be a Force Multiplier for your entire team. Your primary objective in battle is to be the last on your team to go down.

One level of Life Cleric is totally worth while for a Lore Bard. You might walk around in Heavy Armor with a Shield and an open hand. Reasonable stats might be STR:10 DEX:10 CON:12 INT:10 WIS:14 CHA:16. If you can manage 15 Strength you will move faster in Heavy Armor and may become a fearsome grappler (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468737-The-Grappler-s-Manual-(2-0)-Grappling-in-5th-Edition) [Grappler's Manual]. The most efficient way to heal is to prevent incoming damage.

Here are a few things you can do to support your team:
A. The Bless spell is a terrific use of your concentration. Worth casting at higher levels to cover more team members. Even better when your martial allies reach 5th level. Arguably better than Haste, with which it stacks.
B. At 5th level consider taking the feat Inspiring Leader instead of an Ability Score Increase. This somewhat hinders your spell DC but gives your entire team a large buffer of extra hit points that renews after every 70 minute Short Rest. If your team gets banged up and takes 2-3 short rests that's about 100 HP of pre-healing per day.
C. Act to mitigate or minimize incoming damage. E.g. Vicious Mockery, Faerie Fire to kill foes faster, Suggestion: "sit on your hands", Sanctuary, Command, Cutting Words, shove a foe prone, grapple a foe, Minor Illusion to give an ally cover, et cetera. You will be very good at this.
D. Heal your allies just enough to keep everyone on their feet and fighting. E.g. Once an ally goes down you might cast Vicious Mockery to hinder the foe and Healing Word (Bonus Action) on your ally.

If you stack all those effects you greatly magnify the combat power of your team. Your team will A. Inflict more damage and take less harm B. & C. Take less damage and require less healing and D. keep fighting longer and probably not die.

Consider blasting away with Thunderwave or Shatter whenever many foes clump up. Your biggest weakness is inability to reliably inflict massive HP damage, so blast opportunistically.

Your team will go far, and you will keep their chronicles and tell their story!

[KnotaGuru]

energyscholar has some great suggestions on how to maximize your bard's effectiveness. I just finished HotDQ with lore bard and it's amazing how you can alter the outcome of any encounter (combat or social). With your party's makeup, I agree that life cleric is a great choice for a level 1 dip. Go life cleric at level 1. Use bless as your primary spell, you have 3 members that rely on attack rolls to do damage.

bid has the best suggestions for ability array (Str8 Dex13+1 Con13+1 Int11 Wis14 Cha14+2)

Medium armor + shield is ideal. Increasing STR just to wear heavy armor is pointless. I never rolled an attack roll with my bard so I doubt having a high STR is worth it and you should be hiding in the back most of time anyway. The +2 DEX mod is great for AC, saves, initiative, and skills. For ASIs, pump your CHA to 20 asap. It's the only stat you need, it increases your spell DCs, social skills (you are the face, not the warlock), and inspiration uses. I mainly used my inspiration for cutting words, especially on enemy initiative and enemy AoE damage spells. After 5th level bard, don't be stingy with your inspiration.

See how the game plays out when deciding your level 6 bard magical secrets spells. If you need a bump in healing, grab goodberry and/or aura of vitality. Personally, I went with counterspell (proved to be a godsend more than once) and conjure animals - but your concentration spell will still probably be bless.

***EDIT*** just realized you are going standard stat array. In that case STR 8, DEX 13 +1, CON 12 +1, WIS 14, INT 10, CHA 15 +2. 1st ASI: +1 CON, +1 CHA or grab the actor feat and get resilient (CON) later. 2nd ASI: +2 CHA. 3rd ASI: resilient or inspiring leader.

[ZZTRaider]

Thanks for all the help!

That grappling idea doesn't really fit with this character, but it's something I'm going to have to file away for another character at some point.

[BiPolar]

I'm not a huge fan of the dip with lore bard at any variety of early level. Delaying your access to 4th and 5th level spells is an enormous cost as well as delaying your access to your 10th level magical secrets. The gains you get from life cleric (or another dip) are very much real, but are they better than the spells you get as you progress as a bard? That's the decision you need to make.

[MrFahrenheit]

The half elf bard in my campaign dipped one level into life cleric early on, and recently dipped one into rogue, intending to take one more next level up, then finish bard. Total CL is 14 (lore bard 12/life cleric 1/rogue 1). He has max cha, and war caster. Will probably take con resilient with his last ASI/feat.

He's been a fantastic support/control/buff/debuff character, and though the party plays intelligently enough to not have to regularly tap him for healing, it's always way worthwhile when they do.