Dex Fighter question

[Hyphen8or]

Hello. I am building a rapier wielding dex fighter, and I am wondering what sort of difference I can expect between only wielding the sword and sword and boarding? I was planning on skipping the shield initially, but now I am considering using it. Any advice would be welcome.

[Addaran]

Wielding just a sword while nice for style, doesn't really have much advantages. Unless you need to carry a torch, plan to need a free hand a lot (dragging allies, swinging on a rope, fighting while climbing) or want to cast spells.

I played a dex gnome BM fighter. I was very happy to have a shield, gave me a very good 19 AC! ANd you can get shield master (the free shove won't succeed often without str, but the evasion and +2 to dex saves are very nice).

[Axorfett12]

Well the main reason to forgo the shield is to allow you to cast spells without needing war caster. This only applies if you are going Eldritch knight. If you aren't, theres really no reason to trade 2 AC for no mechanical benefit. It's more an ascetic thing for a dex based fighter. A Strength based fighter gets the ability to switch between the one handed and two handed versions of a longsword at will. Still not particularly useful unless you are a champion with Dueling and great weapon fighting styles. Using a shield opens up the protection fighting style. Can't use that without one. What are you looking to get from each combat option?

[Hyphen8or]

Wielding just a sword while nice for style, doesn't really have much advantages. Unless you need to carry a torch, plan to need a free hand a lot (dragging allies, swinging on a rope, fighting while climbing) or want to cast spells.

I played a dex gnome BM fighter. I was very happy to have a shield, gave me a very good 19 AC! ANd you can get shield master (the free shove won't succeed often without str, but the evasion and +2 to dex saves are very nice).

Yeah, I don't plan on doing any casting. I guess it is just that I think of the traditional fiction swashbucklers that never used shields. I will probably add one now.

[Sir cryosin]

Yeah, I don't plan on doing any casting. I guess it is just that I think of the traditional fiction swashbucklers that never used shields. I will probably add one now.

That's were your wrong. Fencing has shields but not the big viking shield that your thinking about. A lot of fighters using rapier's used small buckles.

[Rysto]

Which is ironic, because the "buckler" in "swashbuckler" refers to a specific type of shield.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yep. Having your off-hand free is really worthless if you don't need it for spellcasting. Grab a shield or a shortsword or something.

[JumboWheat01]

Yep. Having your off-hand free is really worthless if you don't need it for spellcasting. Grab a shield or a shortsword or something.

Well, if he's grabbing a shortsword, he'd be better off chucking the rapier for another shortsword or scimitar, since the rapier isn't a "light" weapon and doesn't work with dual wielding.

But yeah, I agree with the others, if you're not going Eldritch Knight, then you should have a shield. Even if you were going Eldritch Knight, as a fighter, you get MORE than enough ASIs to spare one for War Caster, and at that point, you should be using a shield again. Leave the flimsy fencing to the stuck-up nobles, you're an adventurer, survival is key.

[the secret fire]

One nice trick with Dex fighters is to go with a race that gets the racial +2 to Dex, pump it up all the way to 17 at level 1, and then take Resilient Dex for your first ASI. It's like you're getting the saving throw proficiency for free, as you would want to raise Dex to 18 at the first available opportunity, anyway.

[Hyphen8or]

Well the main reason to forgo the shield is to allow you to cast spells without needing war caster. This only applies if you are going Eldritch knight. If you aren't, theres really no reason to trade 2 AC for no mechanical benefit. It's more an ascetic thing for a dex based fighter. A Strength based fighter gets the ability to switch between the one handed and two handed versions of a longsword at will. Still not particularly useful unless you are a champion with Dueling and great weapon fighting styles. Using a shield opens up the protection fighting style. Can't use that without one. What are you looking to get from each combat option?

Yeah, since I plan on making him a Battle Master and a dueler, it makes sense to give him a shield. Thanks for the advice.

[Hyphen8or]

Which is ironic, because the "buckler" in "swashbuckler" refers to a specific type of shield.

I know, right? I guess I think of Zorro, Robin Hood, Inigo Montoya and the Dread Pirate Roberts when I think swashbuckler.

[Hyphen8or]

Yep. Having your off-hand free is really worthless if you don't need it for spellcasting. Grab a shield or a shortsword or something.

Since I plan for a dueler, the second weapon would hinder that. Mind you I do plan on him having a backup kukri...

[Hyphen8or]

Well, if he's grabbing a shortsword, he'd be better off chucking the rapier for another shortsword or scimitar, since the rapier isn't a "light" weapon and doesn't work with dual wielding.

But yeah, I agree with the others, if you're not going Eldritch Knight, then you should have a shield. Even if you were going Eldritch Knight, as a fighter, you get MORE than enough ASIs to spare one for War Caster, and at that point, you should be using a shield again. Leave the flimsy fencing to the stuck-up nobles, you're an adventurer, survival is key.

My character needs to be a fencer. That is how I have always imagined him. But he shall have a shield.

[Hyphen8or]

One nice trick with Dex fighters is to go with a race that gets the racial +2 to Dex, pump it up all the way to 17 at level 1, and then take Resilient Dex for your first ASI. It's like you're getting the saving throw proficiency for free, as you would want to raise Dex to 18 at the first available opportunity, anyway.

Luckily I rolled really well, and as a human, I ended up with a 19 on my Con.
Now I am very new to D&D (I am playing the starter set with friends to see how we like it) and am building my first character for my next game. That being said, what is ASI?

[Madbox]

ASI is ability score improvement. You get it at certain levels, and either increase one stat by 2, two stats by 1, or take a feat. Resilient Dex ASI would be taking the resilient feat for dex, which gives +1 dex and proficiency in dex saves.

[Hyphen8or]

ASI is ability score improvement. You get it at certain levels, and either increase one stat by 2, two stats by 1, or take a feat. Resilient Dex ASI would be taking the resilient feat for dex, which gives +1 dex and proficiency in dex saves.

Gotcha. thanks

[Gurifu]

If you're going for a Zorro/Dread Pirate Roberts style character but don't strictly care about having a free hand, I recommend that you ask your DM if you can buy a "parrying dagger" or "duelist's cloak" that counts as a shield in every way except for how it's described.

[Hyphen8or]

If you're going for a Zorro/Dread Pirate Roberts style character but don't strictly care about having a free hand, I recommend that you ask your DM if you can buy a "parrying dagger" or "duelist's cloak" that counts as a shield in every way except for how it's described.

Interesting, very interesting...

[djreynolds]

Well then play a battlemaster/swashbuckler.

Here is my opinion on a shield and battlemaster. Do you have a high enough strength that you can use a shield and shield master?
Though no damage, shield master is a bonus action and you will not have to take trip maneuver. Also, by grabbing some rogue you can get expertise in athletics and now shield master becomes very viable and you will not have to invest so heavily in strength.

And you do not always have to use a shield.

[Hyphen8or]

Well then play a battlemaster/swashbuckler.

Here is my opinion on a shield and battlemaster. Do you have a high enough strength that you can use a shield and shield master?
Though no damage, shield master is a bonus action and you will not have to take trip maneuver. Also, by grabbing some rogue you can get expertise in athletics and now shield master becomes very viable and you will not have to invest so heavily in strength.

And you do not always have to use a shield.

I have a strength of 15. Is that enough? (did I mention I am new at this?)

[djreynolds]

I have a strength of 15. Is that enough? (did I mention I am new at this?)

Plenty. Its a bonus action. You can still take the trip maneuver if you want to as well. Sometimes you just have to knock an enemy on his butt. And shield master coupled with a high dexterity is almost as good as proficiency in that save and shield master grants you a pseudo evasion to boot.

[Hyphen8or]

Plenty. Its a bonus action. You can still take the trip maneuver if you want to as well. Sometimes you just have to knock an enemy on his butt. And shield master coupled with a high dexterity is almost as good as proficiency in that save and shield master grants you a pseudo evasion to boot.

Intriguing...

[Plaguescarred]

A free hand isn't doing much for you so you should either carry a shield for more defense or a different weapon for two-weapon fighting. I did built a swasbuckler pirate back when AL started and wielded two cutlass (shortsword). #reflavoring

If you go with rapier & shield, know that you can use the duelist fighting style with it.

[Cybren]

Yep. Having your off-hand free is really worthless if you don't need it for spellcasting. Grab a shield or a shortsword or something.

Wel, they could use the off hand for grappling, but despite real wold dueling involving lots of grapples, that isn't as good on a dex fighter. Still, it's not awful if you multiclass to rogue for expertise

[CursedRhubarb]

Something else you can do if you want to avoid the shield is to keep a stock of darts or a handful of daggers. That way you can make your main attack with your action then use your free object interaction to draw a dart or dagger and then throw it with your bonus action. Not always useful since the throw would have disadvantage if you have an enemy next to you but would give you a nice ranged hit you can use to start a fight then rush in, or for after the guy next to you drops to get a hit on the next one.

[kenposan]

If you're going for a Zorro/Dread Pirate Roberts style character but don't strictly care about having a free hand, I recommend that you ask your DM if you can buy a "parrying dagger" or "duelist's cloak" that counts as a shield in every way except for how it's described.

Sounds like the 'dual wielder' feat. +1 to AC when wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand. and he could still attack with it as a bonus action if he wanted to.

rapier in one hand, main gauche in the other. or if a cape, maybe use it as an entangle somehow?

[PMárk]

Interesting OP, since I'm considering this 'problem' for a while. Mechanically, yes, 5E doesn't support the original single-sword wielding duelist concept, which is a shame IMO, I would like if there is a feat or something for that, since it is a firm troupe.

However, also yes, historically rapiers were used with parrying daggers and arming swords with bucklers frequently, but also were used without it, especially rapiers and later one-handed swords. Furthermore it's a little strange that you can only use a rapier, the most used weapon with an off-hand dagger, with a feat, but can use it with a buckler freely, which was more or less out of the fashion in the rapier's heyday.

Basically a free hand allows disarming and grappling, provides more free interaction with your surroundings (both are real pros in a real-life situation) and you will have a slightly better reach and showing a smaller target to your opponent. Again, I would be glad if some future supplement will cover this.

[Hyphen8or]

A free hand isn't doing much for you so you should either carry a shield for more defense or a different weapon for two-weapon fighting. I did built a swasbuckler pirate back when AL started and wielded two cutlass (shortsword). #reflavoring

If you go with rapier & shield, know that you can use the duelist fighting style with it.

Yeah, my plans are to be a dueler, so a shield makes sense.

[Hyphen8or]

Wel, they could use the off hand for grappling, but despite real wold dueling involving lots of grapples, that isn't as good on a dex fighter. Still, it's not awful if you multiclass to rogue for expertise

Good point. I think I will still get the shield, but not use it at all times so that grappling could still happen if needed. And The more I read up on it, the more sense it makes to multi-class as a rogue to get the swashbuckling skills.

[Hyphen8or]

Something else you can do if you want to avoid the shield is to keep a stock of darts or a handful of daggers. That way you can make your main attack with your action then use your free object interaction to draw a dart or dagger and then throw it with your bonus action. Not always useful since the throw would have disadvantage if you have an enemy next to you but would give you a nice ranged hit you can use to start a fight then rush in, or for after the guy next to you drops to get a hit on the next one.

Noted. But not sure if this is the style I am going for.

[Slipperychicken]

If I were to play someone who was using a single-hand weapon, I'd keep an off-hand weapon and a shield on me, and switch between those and a free hand as I saw fit. Free hand for when I anticipate disarming or grappling, shield for when I anticipate needing to tank, and off-hand weapon when I just need to hurt things.



Basically a free hand allows disarming and grappling, provides more free interaction with your surroundings (both are real pros in a real-life situation) and you will have a slightly better reach and showing a smaller target to your opponent. Again, I would be glad if some future supplement will cover this.

Those are big pros in 5e as well.

See an enemy with a big scary-looking weapon? Stab his hand so he drops it, pick it up yourself, and then make a quip about the guy having butter-fingers. Also works for spellcasters' holy symbols and focuses too. It's pretty nice to take a serious boss's main weapon away, reducing him to trying to take it back while you hold it out of reach like you're a schoolyard bully.

[Hyphen8or]

Interesting OP, since I'm considering this 'problem' for a while. Mechanically, yes, 5E doesn't support the original single-sword wielding duelist concept, which is a shame IMO, I would like if there is a feat or something for that, since it is a firm troupe.

However, also yes, historically rapiers were used with parrying daggers and arming swords with bucklers frequently, but also were used without it, especially rapiers and later one-handed swords. Furthermore it's a little strange that you can only use a rapier, the most used weapon with an off-hand dagger, with a feat, but can use it with a buckler freely, which was more or less out of the fashion in the rapier's heyday.

Basically a free hand allows disarming and grappling, provides more free interaction with your surroundings (both are real pros in a real-life situation) and you will have a slightly better reach and showing a smaller target to your opponent. Again, I would be glad if some future supplement will cover this.

I fully agree with you there. I do like the idea of only wielding the rapier for the esthetics of it all, but the shield does make sense to wield.
Hopefully something is expanded upon in a future supplement.

[Hyphen8or]

Sounds like the 'dual wielder' feat. +1 to AC when wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand. and he could still attack with it as a bonus action if he wanted to.

rapier in one hand, main gauche in the other. or if a cape, maybe use it as an entangle somehow?

But I wish to use the "dueler" feat.

[Hyphen8or]

If I were to play someone who was using a single-hand weapon, I'd keep an off-hand weapon and a shield on me, and switch between those and a free hand as I saw fit. Free hand for when I anticipate disarming or grappling, shield for when I anticipate needing to tank, and off-hand weapon when I just need to hurt things.



Those are big pros in 5e as well.

See an enemy with a big scary-looking weapon? Stab his hand so he drops it, pick it up yourself, and then make a quip about the guy having butter-fingers. Also works for spellcasters' holy symbols and focuses too. It's pretty nice to take a serious boss's main weapon away, reducing him to trying to take it back while you hold it out of reach like you're a schoolyard bully.

This is the direction I am heading. Rapier, shield and kukri. I plan on silvering at least one of them.

[Slipperychicken]

This is the direction I am heading. Rapier, shield and kukri. I plan on silvering at least one of them.

Just be aware that you will not deal as much damage as a great weapon fighter. You need to look for ways to use your bonus action too, to get the most out of your fighter. Maybe keep some daggers and stuff too so you can draw and throw them when you're out of ideas?


Also, you should plan on silvering every weapon you intend to use. You really do not want to run into a werewolf without silver weapons. I'd go as far as to say that a silvered version of your main weapon should be your first purchase once you have 100 gold to spend. It is absolutely crucial that you bypass damage resistances and immunities.

[Hyphen8or]

Just be aware that you will not deal as much damage as a great weapon fighter. You need to look for ways to use your bonus action too, to get the most out of your fighter. Maybe keep some daggers and stuff too so you can draw and throw them when you're out of ideas?


Also, you should plan on silvering every weapon you intend to use. You really do not want to run into a werewolf without silver weapons. I'd go as far as to say that a silvered version of your main weapon should be your first purchase once you have 100 gold to spend. It is absolutely crucial that you bypass damage resistances and immunities.

I did know that, Thanks. I know the kukri is able to be used as a thrown weapon.
I guess I should have said I want to silver at least one of my weapons right away.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Note that, if you're using a Rapier, using a shield does not prevent you from using the Defensive Duelist feat, which can be a lifesaver.

Basically, sword and board won't do the damage a great weapon build will but it's also better at avoiding damage, which should fit the themes for a fast fencing character well. Just fluff your shield as either a small buckler or, as someone recommended, a 'parrying dagger' (with DM approval).

Taking Defensive Duelist and Shield Master will give you uses for both your bonus action and your reaction nearly every round.