How does the bladesinger stack up?

[RedMage125]

Looks like I'll be having an opportunity to actually play instead of DM.

The group has 3 players, a cleric/paladin, a ranger, and a fighter.

I like playing wizards, thought I'd give the SCAG option a try.

Anyone actually played it? Is it god, or should I stick with Diviner?

[Axorfett12]

The bladesinger plays like a wizard who has some melee capability. You gain a plethora of defensive options, but you are first and foremost a wizard. You have a d6 hit die. Starting with a level of fighter could be a handy defensive boost. My personal build for melee bladesinger is 1 level of fighter, 2 levels of wizard, and then go Eldritch knight for the rest of the progression. Bladesinger is very frontloaded. You only really need the bladesong. Bladesinger is perfectly viable on itsaves own though. It is far from god. Playing it straight wizard should be fine.

[the secret fire]

The Bladesinger combines better with Rogue than fighter, imo, as the Bladesinger gets a second attack naturally and can't use a shield, anyway. Unless you're really hot to do some magical assassination shenanigans, I'd recommend just taking two levels of Rogue and otherwise progressing as a Wizard. Your party needs a Rogue, anyway, and a Rogue 2/Bladesinger X is much better than an Arcane Trickster over the course of 20 levels.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's kind of deceptive. It doesn't make you an agile fighter-mage; it makes you... a glass tank, maybe? Between Mage Armor and Bladesong, you will be stupidly hard to hit-- and with the bonus to Con saves, you won't be losing any spells when you do get hit. But you'll be really hurting hit-point wise. Moreover, it doesn't do a lot for your actual ability to fight. You'll still have low hit points, and Extra Attack is probably inferior to just using the melee cantrips-- certainly after 11th. It's actually better to just operate like a normal wizard who just happens to get perma-Shield.

If you want to use it, and have a DM that will let you waive the racial limit, I'd go in as a variant Human Fighter 1-2/Wizard 18-19, with the two-weapon fighting style. Take Tough as your free feat and you're effectively operating with a d8 hit die, which is enough that you don't have to be super-scared about getting annihilated. Stat-wise, Dex>Con>Int>Wis>Str and Cha. Of course, you could also use the same build with, oh, an Abjuration wizard and get huge amounts of temporary hit points and be just about as good at stabbing things-- and wear heavy armor to boot.

So yeah. For a melee wizard, Fighter 1/Abjurerer is probably better than Bladesinger. As is a Valor Bard, who get better hit points, better proficiencies, comparable AC boosts (through Cutting Words), and the ability to poach the best gish spells from other lists.


[Theoretical]You could also try arguing that Bladesong only ends if you don heavy armor, and thus can still be used if you're already wearing it when you start to dance. But as AC isn't really your problem, I wouldn't worry too much.

[Dalebert]

The Bladesinger combines better with Rogue than fighter, imo...

This. I was thinking of an arcane trickster. Instead made a Swashbuckler X / Bladesinger 6 / maybe something else? My intent was to be a rogue first who would have some good self-buffs. Second attack will be nice for an extra chance to land a sneak attack. Taking fighter with BS seems very counter-intuitive and redundant to me since they can only wear light armor or lose BS benefits. The main point of one level of fighter seems to be armor. I guess fighting style could be nice but doesn't seem worth the lag in BS advancement.

I've generally thought of the bladesinger as being a way to have a sort of gish who retains full wizard advancement. It's fine to dip BS from something else because it is so front-loaded with benefits but seems to defeat the point to be primarily a wizard BS and then dip another melee class. *shrug* Maybe I just haven't weighed the cost/benefit of some combo sufficiently.

[RickAllison]

I see a couple possible paths for a Bladesinger. It can be a single-class battlemage (highest AC, more likely to keep concentration, hard to grapple, etc.), which only the abjurer can also do without heavy feat use or being that one dwarf. It multi classes well either way to make intelligent and destrous warriors (rogues fulfill all criteria, while archer Fighters will love a boost for when they have to get up close). Heck, remove the singing part of it and it becomes a fun way to represent fighters who fight with their mind.

[bloodshed343]

A simple fix for the HP problem is to take 2 levels of Warlock with the fiend pact and take the invocation that gives you false life at-will, and while you're at it, get at-will mage armor. This also gives you some short-rest recharging spell slots for blasting.

[Grod_The_Giant]

A simple fix for the HP problem is to take 2 levels of Warlock with the fiend pact and take the invocation that gives you false life at-will, and while you're at it, get at-will mage armor. This also gives you some short-rest recharging spell slots for blasting.
That's only 8 HP and +1 AC or spell slot, on a class that already has scads of AC. Two levels is a heck of a price to pay for 8 HP.

[CaptAl]

Is a Bladesinger a god. Not really. With a splash of Rogue you become a solid skirmisher with crazy amounts of AC and spell slots. If you want a defensive character that makes physical attackers furious, abjuration does better. If you want to focus on melee attacks with some casting utility, a Bladelock or Valor Bard is better. If you want to control the battlefield from the back line and never get hit bc of a ridiculously high AC, well, wizard with a splash of Fighter can do that.

The question is, what's the goal? A Swashbuckler/Bladesinger makes for a badass off tank with solid damage, great spell utility, and strong scouting skills. Just don't expect him to eat many punches.

[Giant2005]

That's only 8 HP and +1 AC or spell slot, on a class that already has scads of AC. Two levels is a heck of a price to pay for 8 HP.

It isn't just 8 HP, but 8 HP per battle. Its effectiveness depends entirely on how many fights between long rests your group tends to encounter.

As for the Bladesinger, it really depends on the group too. Bladesingers are great in games where magic items are rare, but in games with copious access to magic items, its defensive benefits become a lot more lackluster.

[Sir_Leorik]

A player in my campaign is playing a Fighter 1/Bladesinger 7.The Bladesong, combined with the Shield spell, makes the PC virtually unhittable by anything with a Challenge lower than 6 or 7. The PC doesn't hit in melee very often, and usually ends up casting or using a SCAG cantrip rather than making an attack. The PC is low on hit points, even with the Fighter level.

[RedMage125]

Well, given that the rest of the party is Fighter, Ranger, and Cleric/Paladin (don't know subclasses yet)...I think I should focus on more just being the caster. I guess I was interested in "optimal vis fun" ratio of the class, but I think maybe I should stick with a classic school of magic.

I thought about splitting the difference between what they're lacking on going either Arcane Trickster or Lore Bard, but those don't interest me as much. I've seen several ATs in play, and I've already played a Valor Bard, wanted to try something different. Wizard was always my favorite before...

I get the feeling the DM is pretty inexperienced, too, so I'll need to tone down my instincts to solve everything. If they've been getting by with what they have, maybe I should just pick a fiend warlock and go all pew-pew.

[djreynolds]

I love the class, it is full of flavor. It really allows you to help fill the void in a party like no other wizard could before.

The bladesong recharges on long and short rest and you have two.

You are a full wizard, no wasting levels dipping cleric or fighter or wasting feats on light, medium, and heavy armor... which is realistic. Waiting a level till you get fireball when you should have it now sucks.

Run out of spells, move in and fight. Save spells for later, move in and fight.

Hit points, party hit points are party resources, if you can take the heat off the paladin and save his lay on hands for later... then you've contributed to the party's success.

Perhaps in the middle of combat you must cast the fly spell on the rogue to disable the bridge lock or get the paladin to the dragon.
Its not just defense, but being able to "hold" a spell's concentration.

You can man the lines and blast lightning bolts while the barbarian swings away and the fighter can save his reaction for AoOs instead of using protection style on you.

I've played an abjurer, which is fantastic. I like evocation. This bladesinger is just as good.

[Klorox]

Bladesinger is neat, but I prefer the abjuror if I want a mate who can tank.

Either start with 2 levels of warlock for that wicked combo (mage armor on demand/abjurors get temp HP with every abjuration spell cast), or just make your character a mountain dwarf. Medium armor plus green flame blade makes a great gosh, even if you never go above one attack.

[djreynolds]

The thing I like about bladesinger is that you are more apt to put ASI in dex and int, as they both increase AC and later both at level 14 add to damage.

I played a mountain dwarf abjurer, before GFB, and I realized I could just use shocking grasp in melee as it was melee spell attack, based on intelligence to hit, and dump the weapon.

Bladesinger though, with elven attributes to dex and int, normally, allows those stats to rise together fast and makes using GFB more viable.

Dwarven abjurer and elven bladesinger are both great, but I stopped pumping strength in the dwarven abjurer after creation and left it at 16, not bad mind you, but I think bladesinger gives a little more in terms of a melee presence and not just a damage sponge.

Both are fantastic, but level 14 comes around and like me you've blown through chain lightning spells, the bladesinger's adding dex and intelligence to defense and melee damage.

[the secret fire]

Yeah, the bladesinger does fine without multiclassing.

I should add that two levels of rogue add considerably to the bladesinger's maneuverability in combat (Cunning Action is fantastic for the bladesinger), in addition to adding a bit of damage through SA and valuable skill monkey abilities. Want to get your caster through a melee and put him in position to target that lightning bolt just so? Nobody does it better than a bladesinger with two levels of rogue. It's fun to be that ridiculously maneuverable, and potentially quite powerful, as the artillery you're carrying with Character Level - 2 in wizard levels is considerable. It makes line and cone spells, specifically, quite a lot more feasible, and devastating.

[Specter]

As was said before, I'd go Bladesinger 2/EK 18. But your group seems pretty martial-heavy, so unless you're playing a war campaign perhaps go Bladesinger 8/Arcane Trickster 12. Full ASI's, mad Sneak, spell slots as a 12th-level caster and nice Rogue abilities to make you decent in the frontlines.

Or you could go full BS. Just don't attack till you're out of spells.

[Cybren]

Well, given that the rest of the party is Fighter, Ranger, and Cleric/Paladin (don't know subclasses yet)...I think I should focus on more just being the caster. I guess I was interested in "optimal vis fun" ratio of the class, but I think maybe I should stick with a classic school of magic.

I thought about splitting the difference between what they're lacking on going either Arcane Trickster or Lore Bard, but those don't interest me as much. I've seen several ATs in play, and I've already played a Valor Bard, wanted to try something different. Wizard was always my favorite before...

I get the feeling the DM is pretty inexperienced, too, so I'll need to tone down my instincts to solve everything. If they've been getting by with what they have, maybe I should just pick a fiend warlock and go all pew-pew.
I was gonna suggest another wizard subclass just for that reason of everyone else already bein a fighterish character. Maybe go for one of the less-chosen schools for wizard like Enchantment or Illusion? You're still a wizard, and everything that entails, but it might let you do cool things without other people thinking you're a dice hog the way a diviner casting debuffs and giving the enemy a 1 would, or a necromancer with horde running around