[Legendary Games] Legendary Vigilantes Open Playtest

[N. Jolly]

Welcome true believers! N. Jolly here, author of both Legendary Kineticists as well as Legendary Hybrids: Kinetic Shinobi (not to mention numerous class guides for the alchemist, gunslinger, kineticist, warpriest, and more). Here I am hosting Legendary Games first open playtest for our newest release, Legendary Vigilantes! Due to the complexity as well as the versatility of this class, we have decided to do an open playtest for 2 to 3 weeks (depending on results, feedback, and other factors) to give you the chance to test out this new material. I welcome all feedback from actual playtesting to comments made while reading through it that you would like addressed.

The playtest will be hosted on Google Drive, so feel free to comment on the doc directly as well as post in this thread. This playtest will be cross posted on Paizo, Giant in the Playground, and (hopefully) Reddit, so please feel free to comment wherever works best for you, and I hope you all enjoy what we've created:

Legendary Vigilantes Open Playtest Doc (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Hrk1hl8uXVHazaiPOCvWsFUHX3PB6fQVd13tzguJTgE/edit?usp=sharing)

[Eldaran]

Definitely some cool concepts in here, Vigilante seems like a class designed to fill any concept.

The Vigilante Talent Blood Empowerment seems kind of ridiculous, it's a pretty good deal right off the bat, but scaling up to +6 atk/dmg for as long as you want for the incredibly minor cost of 1 hp per round? That's more than a Barbarian gets at level 20 from rage, without the con gain but without the downsides as well. Maybe if you were in a super gritty campaign with no healing at all it might be balanced, but otherwise it's insane.

One thing I wanted to ask, is have you considered a Vigilante archetype that has their social and vigilante role joined together? There's a lot of super heroes out there with no secret identity for example Doctor Strange, sure you could just make them the same anyway, but it all seems to be designed with the thought that you keep them separate.

Edit: Just noticed the Exposed Vigilante archetype, awesome. I really like the way you can switch in and out of it as well, I feel like that should have been in the base class. One comment, the name is a little weird, maybe call it Open Vigilante instead?

[khadgar567]

Does arsenal summoner and dragon champion stack and why arsenal champion doesnt have sphere casting

[N. Jolly]

Definitely some cool concepts in here, Vigilante seems like a class designed to fill any concept.

The Vigilante Talent Blood Empowerment seems kind of ridiculous, it's a pretty good deal right off the bat, but scaling up to +6 atk/dmg for as long as you want for the incredibly minor cost of 1 hp per round? That's more than a Barbarian gets at level 20 from rage, without the con gain but without the downsides as well. Maybe if you were in a super gritty campaign with no healing at all it might be balanced, but otherwise it's insane.

One thing I wanted to ask, is have you considered a Vigilante archetype that has their social and vigilante role joined together? There's a lot of super heroes out there with no secret identity for example Doctor Strange, sure you could just make them the same anyway, but it all seems to be designed with the thought that you keep them separate.

Edit: Just noticed the Exposed Vigilante archetype, awesome. I really like the way you can switch in and out of it as well, I feel like that should have been in the base class. One comment, the name is a little weird, maybe call it Open Vigilante instead?

For bloody empowerment, originally the amount of bleed increased with the bonus. Do you think doing the same, either having it go 1/2/3 bleed would work, or should it go 2/4/6 bleed instead?

As for exposed vigilante, clarified the social talent is at 1st level only. And I'm fine with changing the name, I just thought of it having been taken after the vigilante was exposed and such.


Does arsenal summoner and dragon champion stack and why arsenal champion doesnt have sphere casting

They do, and it doesn't because DDS is already doing sphere casting vigilantes.

[khadgar567]

They do, and it doesn't because DDS is already doing sphere casting vigilantes.
Thanks by the way there is a luchador vigilante class in test on this forum by dreamscared press and dropdead studios so your coments will be welcomed( i am the only one besides stack that post that treat)

[N. Jolly]

Thanks by the way there is a luchador vigilante class in test on this forum by dreamscared press and dropdead studios so your coments will be welcomed( i am the only one besides stack that post that treat)

Oh, I know about that. I sent them my notes before it was publically released. (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tq13?DSP-Akashic-Mysteries-Feelkha-Guru-Themed-as#4) Suffice it to say, my masked wrestler has been in devlopment for months before that was brought up on the boards (it was the first archetype I started with for the legendary vigilante line.)

I'll have to check out luchador later, although right now I'm pretty busy with my own playtesting.

So far I've been getting good feedback from everyone, made a few changes to things, and I should be adding another archetype or two before the end of this playtest.

[Sayt]

For bloody empowerment, originally the amount of bleed increased with the bonus. Do you think doing the same, either having it go 1/2/3 bleed would work, or should it go 2/4/6 bleed instead?


For comparison, the Holy Vindicator takes 1/2 Holy Vindicator level in bleed per round, for an equivalent bonus to the bleed to a thing of their choice. Perhaps at a rate of 1/4 level?

[N. Jolly]

For comparison, the Holy Vindicator takes 1/2 Holy Vindicator level in bleed per round, for an equivalent bonus to the bleed to a thing of their choice. Perhaps at a rate of 1/4 level?


That's fair, it's now +2/1 bleed, +4/3 bleed, +6/5 bleed, which should be more balanced. Thanks for the suggestion!

[N. Jolly]

Hey all, update to the playtest, the Mercurial Duelist (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Hrk1hl8uXVHazaiPOCvWsFUHX3PB6fQVd13tzguJTgE/edit#bookmark=id.gbp3xga7iafg) archetype is now live! This saturday I'll be releasing the Inquisitive Detective, Mad Scientist, and Trickshot Sniper as well. Hope to see some thoughts on the doc, and I'll keep the thread updated on new developments with the playtest.

[Mehangel]

I am a huge fan of the mercurial duelist. Now all we need is a Path of War archetype that is compatible with the mercurial duelist so to give it mithril current maneuvers. Although, I suppose using the Martial Training feat chain will work for now.

Edit: Turns out that Dreamscarred Press has a Vigilante archetype in playtesting (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jWw7bVMARxrXfRuOW20NlRqXEnS_XGLPT6LHTbz2qME/edit#heading=h.dxs5ebrukytt). Unfortunately, it looks like the two are barely incompatible (They both have a class feature that alters/replaces Vigilante Specialization).

[N. Jolly]

I am a huge fan of the mercurial duelist. Now all we need is a Path of War archetype that is compatible with the mercurial duelist so to give it mithril current maneuvers. Although, I suppose using the Martial Training feat chain will work for now.

Edit: Turns out that Dreamscarred Press has a Vigilante archetype in playtesting (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jWw7bVMARxrXfRuOW20NlRqXEnS_XGLPT6LHTbz2qME/edit#heading=h.dxs5ebrukytt). Unfortunately, it looks like the two are barely incompatible (They both have a class feature that alters/replaces Vigilante Specialization).
Huh, and here I thought fool's errand was just a new discipline, I'll have to check it out.

As far as stacking goes, you could go with the iaijutsu student talent, get a once per combat iaijutsu slash, then pick up an iaijutsu talent too, but that'd be a heavy talent investment.

And the doc has been updated with Inquisitive Detective, Mad Scientist, and my personal favorite of the three, Trickshot Sniper. So check it out, see what you think of the new specialties.

[Florian]

@N.Jolly:

Guy, I salute you! Legendary Games is the only 3PP I buy via Drive Thru due to fitting in with regular Paizo and still delivering quality.

Arsenal Summoner:

Maybe point out that Anima Union overrules the 1H Slashing rules of Black Blade.

Draconic Champion:

I´m not happy with it. That could be centered more around the standard draconic bloodline and how dragon disciple ties into it. IMHO it should be mechanically resolved by giving the Eldritch Heritage (Draconic) feat and its follow-ups.

Exposed Vigilante:

Not good. Breaks the whole concept of the Vigilante down to just being a Rogue. Please don´t.

Mercurial Duelist:

Not so happy with how the crafting options are handled. It would be more straight-forward to use the Bonded Object rules, as they already include the crafting rules.

Noble Soul:

This should include the Aura class feature and possibly a small way to hide it in social mode. This can be necessary when interacting with some Paladin Litany spells.

Shadow Sentinel:

This should include Shadow Walk and Plane Shift: Shadow along some point, maybe analog to Fetchlings.

Social Talents:

I´d like to see an (Alignment) advanced version of Absurd Accusation.

[N. Jolly]

@N.Jolly:

Guy, I salute you! Legendary Games is the only 3PP I buy via Drive Thru due to fitting in with regular Paizo and still delivering quality.

Arsenal Summoner:

Maybe point out that Anima Union overrules the 1H Slashing rules of Black Blade.

Draconic Champion:

I´m not happy with it. That could be centered more around the standard draconic bloodline and how dragon disciple ties into it. IMHO it should be mechanically resolved by giving the Eldritch Heritage (Draconic) feat and its follow-ups.

Exposed Vigilante:

Not good. Breaks the whole concept of the Vigilante down to just being a Rogue. Please don´t.

Mercurial Duelist:

Not so happy with how the crafting options are handled. It would be more straight-forward to use the Bonded Object rules, as they already include the crafting rules.

Noble Soul:

This should include the Aura class feature and possibly a small way to hide it in social mode. This can be necessary when interacting with some Paladin Litany spells.

Shadow Sentinel:

This should include Shadow Walk and Plane Shift: Shadow along some point, maybe analog to Fetchlings.

Social Talents:

I´d like to see an (Alignment) advanced version of Absurd Accusation.

Legendary Games is awesome, I'm so glad I'm able to work with them. LG and DSP are two of my fave 3pps, so getting the chance to do work with one of them has been amazing.

Arsenal Summoner: Done!

Dragon Champion: While interesting, to me this is meant as a throw on archetype, and I'm not huge on the draconic bloodline myself, but I could see about possibly involving said bloodline more, maybe tying draconic claws into the bloodline.

Exposed Vigilante: Too many people want this for me to say no. I recognize it does against the flavor, but it's also been HIGHLY requested.

Mercurial Duelist: Fair enough, I might just make the ancestral weapon a bonded object to simplify things. The inspiration for how it worked was the old L5R samurai.

Noble Soul: Agreed, they'll get an aura and other such things.

Shadow Sentinel: There's a few specific talents I want to add to this, so these suggestions along with them should give some unique shadow talents!

Social Talents: I could see including something like that, absurd accusation is probably my favorite social talent due to how silly it is.

I appreciate you taking time to look over the doc and give me these notes, and I'll do my best to implment them into the finished product!

[Florian]

Draconic was the one I was literally thinking: But what if you MC with.. or VMC with.. or PrC into... Ok, get a beer and don´t start up Excel to try it. Bad sign.

As a long-time L5R Player and GM, what did you have in mind? Reads a little bit like Crane.

[Mehangel]

Any chance you can include a social talent (available at 1st level) that allows your social and vigilante identity to have no restrictions on alignment? I personally was very annoyed that a chaotic evil villain couldn't pose as lawful good. Or that a lawful good officer couldn't infiltrate a chaotic evil organization.

[N. Jolly]

Draconic was the one I was literally thinking: But what if you MC with.. or VMC with.. or PrC into... Ok, get a beer and don´t start up Excel to try it. Bad sign.

As a long-time L5R Player and GM, what did you have in mind? Reads a little bit like Crane.

It can become a whole big thing, which is why I try to avoid dabbling too much in things like this.

And yeah, there's some slight crane inspiration there, although I doubt I want to go full crane. The archetype itself is basically a love letter to Ruroni Kenshin, as a lot of the talents are from that show.


Any chance you can include a social talent (available at 1st level) that allows your social and vigilante identity to have no restrictions on alignment? I personally was very annoyed that a chaotic evil villain couldn't pose as lawful good. Or that a lawful good officer couldn't infiltrate a chaotic evil organization.

So something like this?

[I]Unbound Ethics (Ex) The vigilante’s social identity and vigilante identity are no longer required to be within 1 step of each other.

[Florian]

Thank you for the explanation. Much appreciated.

[Mehangel]

So something like this?

Unbound Ethics (Ex) The vigilante’s social identity and vigilante identity are no longer required to be within 1 step of each other.

Yes, something like that.

[Florian]

A note on "Noble Vigilante" and the commentary to the google doc: Intimidation and such as are not keyed to alignments. I think that should be the defining factor between an "Noble Soul" and a "Paladin", as Rage and Dirge of Doom is the thing between "Skald" and "Bard".

I´d actually like to see a supplementary feat like "Righteous Terror" on this one, tying together Appearance and Smite to create an AoE holy terror effect, like enforcing the cowering condition for one round.

Edit: I´d also like to see some feat or talent that ties into smite and change, like expending on use of smite to instant change.

I´d like to suggest a more randomized mutation effect for the Protean Prowler. That one seems to be keyed to Chaos and could involve using the Harrow Deck to determine base Evolution points and the first evolution.

Ok, I don´t really like anime beyond certain series, so I skipped the Sentai Soldier.
I know you wrote a guide on this and we quarreled a bit over there. I think, you´ve overdone it here. Reading that Archetype, it´s easier to push Burn to get the static size bonus and than go to town with a tomahawk, using regular dex2dmg builds.

Trickshot Sniper:
It would be interesting to include Dirty Trick as an AoO on this one. Maybe an AMMO that one works while in Kitsune Style?

Feats Section:

Cross Specialization: Problematic. The 1/2 Level clause might be a thing, but it doesn´t negatively affect talents or feats that are binary.

Vigilante Savant: Why? That restriction runs contrary to the rules for the regular "Extra" feats.

Violent Child: Make it "One Spell per Vigilante Level". The Unchained Summoner Spell list is good on support. Adding full Magus would be overkill.

Can´t comment on the PrC. The VMC look basically fine, but en par with VMC Gunslinger... so... Maybe one social and vigilante talent each at 7th and 11th?

I´ll skip the magic items. Sorry, no nerve for that.

And... you have me hooked here. I´d actually like to do an Arsenal Summoner with a Nodachi and O-Yoroi.

Else: Good Writing. Clear and Precise, not too much prose. I like that.

[N. Jolly]

A note on "Noble Vigilante" and the commentary to the google doc: Intimidation and such as are not keyed to alignments. I think that should be the defining factor between an "Noble Soul" and a "Paladin", as Rage and Dirge of Doom is the thing between "Skald" and "Bard".

I´d actually like to see a supplementary feat like "Righteous Terror" on this one, tying together Appearance and Smite to create an AoE holy terror effect, like enforcing the cowering condition for one round.

Edit: I´d also like to see some feat or talent that ties into smite and change, like expending on use of smite to instant change.

I´d like to suggest a more randomized mutation effect for the Protean Prowler. That one seems to be keyed to Chaos and could involve using the Harrow Deck to determine base Evolution points and the first evolution.

Ok, I don´t really like anime beyond certain series, so I skipped the Sentai Soldier.
I know you wrote a guide on this and we quarreled a bit over there. I think, you´ve overdone it here. Reading that Archetype, it´s easier to push Burn to get the static size bonus and than go to town with a tomahawk, using regular dex2dmg builds.

Trickshot Sniper:
It would be interesting to include Dirty Trick as an AoO on this one. Maybe an AMMO that one works while in Kitsune Style?

Feats Section:

Cross Specialization: Problematic. The 1/2 Level clause might be a thing, but it doesn´t negatively affect talents or feats that are binary.

Vigilante Savant: Why? That restriction runs contrary to the rules for the regular "Extra" feats.

Violent Child: Make it "One Spell per Vigilante Level". The Unchained Summoner Spell list is good on support. Adding full Magus would be overkill.

Can´t comment on the PrC. The VMC look basically fine, but en par with VMC Gunslinger... so... Maybe one social and vigilante talent each at 7th and 11th?

I´ll skip the magic items. Sorry, no nerve for that.

And... you have me hooked here. I´d actually like to do an Arsenal Summoner with a Nodachi and O-Yoroi.

Else: Good Writing. Clear and Precise, not too much prose. I like that.

Okay, let me get back to you here.

Noble Soul: Right now I'm still mentally playing around with ideas, but I do agree that some kind of fear effect still works for a good character, even if startling appearances isn't the way to go.

Protean Prowler: Hm, I'll have to put this one on the doc, see what people think of it. Personally I'm not big on random effects myself, but I understand the theme here and how it would work.

Sentai Soldier: This isn't really anime, more like power rangers, but I understand the aversion, anime is terrible. I think burn is decent where it is, but I can see your point, and it still has the same issues as normal burn.

Trickshot Sniper: I didn't include that already? That's my fault, I actually did something like that for another book and forgot that it wasn't this one, good call.

Cross Specialization: The 1/2 level thing is more to keep the player from selecting talents that have a high level requirement, I'm fine with them taking low level universal ones with it.

Vigilante Savant: Just giving extra vigilante talent would be too good, which is why it has the restrictions. One vigi talent can be worth 3 feats, which is why it's so heavily policed.

Violent Child: This is probably fair, I just wanted the magical child to have less janky casting.

Scion of the City: Yeah, it's basically all standard stuff, I wasn't expecting commentary on that.

I'm glad you liked it, Arsenal Summoner went through a lot of changes since its inception, but I think it's a lot cooler now.

[Florian]

Noble Soul: Do you the remember the "Shadowbane" PrCs from 3.5 and how horribly that concept was botched? I´ve the feeling that the Vigilante would be the perfect base class to go for exactly that concept again, the hidden and stealthy paladin.

Edit: The old picture was inspiring. I always had the feeling the subtitle was: "Lawful good doesn´t mean lawful nice".

[N. Jolly]

Noble Soul: Do you the remember the "Shadowbane" PrCs from 3.5 and how horribly that concept was botched? I´ve the feeling that the Vigilante would be the perfect base class to go for exactly that concept again, the hidden and stealthy paladin.

Edit: The old picture was inspiring. I always had the feeling the subtitle was: "Lawful good doesn´t mean lawful nice".

I do, it was pretty interesting in concept but the execution was some kind of ugly garbage.

I think with the new Focused Hunter archetype, it'd work better. If you're all just looking for a way to swap out the appearance abilities and get some small bonuses in terrain, it works wonders.

[N. Jolly]

And we're down to the wire here, and now we're adding the Scholarly Tactician (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Hrk1hl8uXVHazaiPOCvWsFUHX3PB6fQVd13tzguJTgE/edit?ts=5791456f#bookmark=id.1obvmydw9wm7) to help you tip the scales! The playtest is ending this sunday, so make sure you check it out and add your name to the doc if you want to be listed as a playtester!