Making a 'Carry' - How do I save my group?

[CrazyCrab]

Hi everyone,
we're playing a new campaign and, even though he is a great guy, my DM is a bit of an overkill, to put it lightly.

Example: Our first session, we get to the boss. We are playing at lv 11s, there's 5 of us. We encounter a boss vampire (CR 13). Not too bad so far, could be won if done properly. Then we get 6 vampire spawns (CR 5 each) attack us from behind. This is, according to the calculator a CR 23 encounter, or 53000 experience, while our limit is a 'Deadly at 18000 exp.'

There was absolutely nothing we could do, honestly.

Partially I feel like he's just not that great at difficulty ratings, he has the story down and everything and I do enjoy his style (must fun I had in a while), but even if I talk him out of it we'll just keep on running into encounters like this - he likes high risk, high reward game play. This is accentuated by everything (players and NPCs) having 1/2 HP.

The problem is that, with 1/2 HP, we could possibly burst them down, prepare some ambushes, do things like that. I don't think that the most encounters will be unbeatable, but the problem is that the fellow players are quite new and nowhere near experienced enough to tackle these encounters. With mages who go in the front and weird multiclasses that don't make too much sense from the munchkin's perspective, it is really tough for just me and the other hardcore guy to carry them.

So, I'm looking for tips on classes and builds that can carry well, strategise, shuffle things around and command without being obnoxious.
I've been considering both pure wizard (a 'GOD' build could work wonders I suppose) and a pure cleric, for some amazing, high level spell burst. Potentially a sharpshooter bard with that ridiculous swift quiver combo could work as well... looking for really just about anything, I like all the classes. Specific builds, combos, anything.
EDIT: Our party is kind of fluid, we have a player set on being a frenzy barb, a warlock-paladin-sorcerer (the other hardcore guy who likes his combos), a bard10-clerc1 and possibly ranger-sorcerer, though she isn't too happy with her character, having had her pet massacred and turned into a vampire. I'm currently playing a paladin-assassin, surprisingly deadly so far but I very rarely get to assassinate, most encounters just happen.


And nah, I won't just ''find another group'' - there are about 5 tables next to us every week so theoretically there is northing easier, but i really like these guys, there're pretty much my best friends. And he is a good DM, he just needs to slightly tone down the diffuculty, yet I'm sure that even is he does it is still going to be really hardcore. He is known in our club as the most lethal DM after all, heh... having killed more players in a one-shot than most people in entire campoaigns. That said, he doesn't cheat and every win feels like beating a game on the hardest difficulty, so satisfying. :smallamused:

[hymer]

You aren't actually supposed to save your group, though, are you? It is the expectation that the party will crash and burn every so often. If you make a stronger character, the DM will just throw bigger packs of enemies at you. I suggest you play character you find amusing, and won't need to spend much effort in building.

If you persist in your idea, I'll add druid to your list of classes to consider. They have a very wide selection of spells, with Conjure X the most obvious ways to get stronger in fights. Getting the versatility and defence of wild shapes could also make the difference between life and death.

[Herobizkit]

Note: I haven't seen this combo in high level action, so not sure how it'll go for you.

Hill Dwarf Tempest Cleric/Divination Wizard.

Cleric:

* Gets all weapons and armor.
* Punishes people who attack him.
* comes with Thunderwave, which is a nice *go away* spell
* being able to maximize Thunder damage is too good.

On the Wizard side:
* Having two divination dice "in your pocket" to cancel crits (or hand em out if you happen to roll a 20) is delicious.
* Utility/Control magic up the wazoo.

Does your DM apply the HP bonus for CON before or after he halves your HP? If after, Take Tough(ness?) feat and Get that CON to at least 16, 18 if you can. +4 or 5 HP/die is swell.

If you can't beat the monsters, beat the world they're in. ;)

[djreynolds]

The problem with multiclassing casters, is you miss out on new spells, I know its only one spell at 11th level and only a 6th level spell... but imagine...

what chain lightning could've done for you and your party, 3 creatures 10d8
or disintegrate, 10d6 + 40 force damage
or globe of invulnerability
or heal
or sun beam (good for undead). 6d8 for 1 minute (10 rounds) worth of destruction
investiture of wind

For me at level 11, forget individual glory and just protect the caster and have them blast everything.

Did you have a level 11 pure wizard or cleric or sorcerer in this fight? It might've changed the outcome.

[Sir cryosin]

Go vhuman grab the healer feat. Take lvs in rogue thief to were you can use med kits as a bonus action. Then go cleric at your next ASI take magic initiative pick up find familiar. Now you can pick up to people in one around by casting cure wounds through your familiar. When your not picking people up you can have spiritual weapon up and use your familiar to deliver a spell like inflict wounds all in the same turn. A good familiar that I would recommend for this would be an owl for its flyby ability. You could also take a one or two fighter dip to pick up the fighting style defense so you can stand back with the squishy characters and impose disadvantage on any attacks made against them. For the 2 cantrips I would use shocking grasp, and create bonfire. Shocking grasp will be your at will damage. And create bonfire will be a control spell to keep enemy's away or lock them down and burn them works to.

[Slipperychicken]

I frequently save my group, or at least feel like I am, playing a life cleric that took healer.

I also have a sort of damage-heavy party, with a crossbow fighter and a GWM barbarian, and it's a very good combination to use bless on them at the beginning of the fight, and heal them as needed while their damage output quickly wears the enemy down. I took magic initiate to get goodberry, and that lets my party members get me back up even if all the party's healers are downed.

My gaming group used to have a lot of wipes and near-wipes because their hp would get worn down over the day. Status effects (including diseases, curses, etc) were also a much bigger deal when they didn't have someone capable of removing them. When I can heal them this much however, especially with short rest abilities that don't take spell slots (i.e. healer feat, preserve live channel divinity), I think it's been making a huge difference in their survivability and endurance.

[Gignere]

Your problem is that you are having new players starting at level 11 instead of getting there organically. Honestly that encounter is very beatable if you all knew your abilities and worked as a team. My suggestion is to start at a lower level and play your way up. There is no saving build to carry the team, a lot if not most of the advance tactics depends and changes depending on the encounter and situation. Good players know when to FF, CC, heal, maneuver etc.. There is just no way for your group to do all that and learn all that in a couple of sessions at level 11.

[Gtdead]

I agree with Gignere. Newbies have a hard time at low levels, starting high should be total chaos for them. The elf wiz in my group at lvl 2 still goes into melee because he doesn't want to waste arrows and firebolt deals less avg damage than the shortsword attack. He doesn't even cast mage armor on himself.

The DM can kill him whenever he wants but he avoids attacking him.

As for creating a carry, in my opinion the build won't make much difference unless you DM is inexperienced too and you create a barbarian. God wizard isn't as potent in this edition as it was in 3.5. The playstyle is more expensive and you still need a lot of teamwork.
You could try a cleric build and use sanctuaries, or try a melee build with spirits guardians to protect your team mates. Command will come handy in such a situation, upcasting it and forcing everyone to walk into the spirit guardians, although it's going to be risky for you. A paladin with sentinel is also a good choice. Great saves, great damage and great ac. Has spell support although limited.

If your DM is inexperienced, a barbarian can be a pain in his ass. Some people just can't deal with him although it's as simple as casting a control spell on him.

Both builds can be shut down easily though especially if your DM doesn't understand encounter balance. I'm not saying he doesn't though, CR is only a small part of calculating encounter difficulty. My DM does something similar out of inexperience and had us fight 900CR encounters at lvl 1. A chokepoint and dodge action were more than enough to deal with his melee enemies.

[Gurifu]

Not all encounters that you can run into should be fought. It's possible that your DM might not be setting up encounters well, but it's also possible that he's setting them up just right for a somewhat difficult campaign. If you want to "carry" a group in a difficult campaign, the best thing you can give them is more options to escape or avoid difficult encounters... superior scouting, teleportation magic, wall spells, illusions, smooth-talking social skills, or even just you taking the lead on careful planning and gathering intel.

[RickAllison]

Much as multi classing will hurt spellcasting, Fighter 2 gives you Action Surge to lay down a second spell when you need one. Especially in mook-heavy encounters, a Fireball+Wall of Force (or Wall of Force+pretty much any non-concentration spell...) can be extremely helpful in separating enemies to take them on in smaller groups.

[Slipperychicken]

I agree with Gignere. Newbies have a hard time at low levels, starting high should be total chaos for them. The elf wiz in my group at lvl 2 still goes into melee because he doesn't want to waste arrows and firebolt deals less avg damage than the shortsword attack. He doesn't even cast mage armor on himself.

The DM can kill him whenever he wants but he avoids attacking him.

In my opinion the DM should have the monsters nom on him for entering melee. It's a reasonable and organic way of teaching the player why his wizard shouldn't be in melee.

[energyscholar]

I've observed this exact problem in action several times. The first few times I was participating, but soon learned to avoid this obvious crash-and-burn situation.

The problem is starting with high level play. Inexperienced players and GM make this even worse. As stated above, PCs and the teams they form are both FAR more effective when they level up organically through play.

Such groups tend to have high player churn, because of the steep learning curve. Those PLAYERS willing to invest the time and attention in learning to effectively play complicated high level characters will remain in the campaign. The casual players will probably drop out.

If this inexperienced group persists with a high level start they will eventually figure things out and probably have fun in the process. Encounters that they currently find challenging will be easy once the players know how to play their (probably complicated) high level PCs and how those PCs best operate as a team. That process typically takes 3-10 sessions, depending on churn.

Eventually the group will decide to start over with 1st level PCs. Casual or inexperienced players tend to have a much better time when they start at low level.

[Slipperychicken]

Eventually the group will decide to start over with 1st level PCs. Casual or inexperienced players tend to have a much better time when they start at low level.

I agree with this. The first few levels seem to be intended as a sort of gameplay tutorial for players. They start off with relatively simple characters that are easy to build, and they gradually add class features and options over the course of several sessions.

[Kane0]

Onion Druid.

Play as a regular druid with spell support to match the average player skill/experience and avoid the DM throwing harder things specifically to challenge you and the other optimizer.
If and only if the DM ends up playing the tougher game do you take off your kiddie gloves and activate your free beast HP in order to save people.

Also encourage your mate to do the same. If the DM is upping the challenge to account for the two of you try bringing yourselves down a touch to match everybody else until they are comfortable and experienced playing munchkin alongside you.

[Saeviomage]

If everything is half hitpoints, then a spellcaster dealing direct damage will be crazily powerful. Your DM has almost made the game into rocket-tag for a spellcaster at that point. Sorceror seems like it would be pretty effective.