What the Baator have you done to my Baatezu??

[ClintACK]

So, Baatezu. Devils. Liars and schemers and manipulators with a will to corrupt and dominate and an appetite for souls. Absolute classic.

But what happened to them in 5e? It feels like they've become The_Other_Demon -- Demons are supposed to be violent rage monsters of mass destruction. Devils are supposed to be *way* scarier -- they're clever and tricky too. They don't smash and burn a small town, they corrupt the local leaders and institutions while making dark bargains.

The Imp still works. It's sneaky, persuasive, can hide itself as an innocuous beast, and can offer itself as a familiar. Great start. Look at its skills -- proficient in Stealth, Deception, Insight, and Persuasion. Perfect.

But what about everything else? Not one other devil is proficient in Persuasion. Not good. The Pit Fiend -- the master Devil one step short of a Duke of Hell -- has a 24 Charisma -- awesome. And uses it for... a casting stat. And nothing else. No proficiency in any social skill. *facepalm*. (A level one party face character has more Insight into human nature. A level one Rogue with Charisma 16 and expertise in Persuasion and Deception is just as manipulative as this CR20 tyrant of Hell.)

The other two social skills -- Deception and Insight -- only two devils get them: the Barbed Devil and the Bone Devil.

So lets look at those. Imagine a Bone Devil boss with a Barbed Devil henchman/bodyguard and an Imp spy -- loose on the Material Plane and hot to corrupt some mortals and take their souls. How can it proceed?

In 3.5e, the Bone Devil could turn himself invisible and use Major Illusion to craft a fake front man to bargain with the foolish mortals -- and had the +15 Bluff and Sense Motive to pull it off. Give him a few months and he'll own a large town and be pulling in a steady stream of souls. What a cool setting for a mid-level party to slowly figure out what's wrong in the town where they sell their loot.

In 5e, the Bone Devil has no magic at all. It's stuck looking like the misbegotten offspring of a Dracolich, only more evil. Right. That'll be all your +7 Deception and +3 Persuasion checks at disadvantage, please. So what are his options? Violent, brutal conquest? And then offer to let the children go if their parents surrender their souls? I guess it could work -- but it's more Baphomet than Asmodeus.


Don't get me wrong, the Manipulative and Corrupting Fiend role is still played beautifully by the Succubus/Incubus and Rakshasa -- but the once-glorious Devil has been reduced to a raging pile of combat stats, like a demon.

Something dark and terrible has been lost when the difference between the Balor and the Pit Fiend is that one has a whip and the other casts fireball.

[pwykersotz]

I can't really disagree. Any classic use of the devils probably has to go beyond their statblock.

[Telok]

The whole demon/devil split and renaming was instituted by TSR during the satanic panic of the late 80s/early 90s. The designers may just be returning to something similar to the earlier versions. I haven't read the current Monster Manual much, you'll have to check the ecology/fluff section of the monsters and planes to see if they kept the split or erased the divisions.

[MrConsideration]

If you just take the MM stat block as 'this is what happens when you fight it' your Devils are free to do whatever they like. 5e stat-blocks are a lot smaller because they avoid the bloat necessary in explaining off-screen stuff like the more simulationist 3e.

I think they avoid giving monsters social skills because they're not exactly able to 'persuade' the party.

[hymer]

Persuasion isn't that well represented in the MM stat blocks. Angels don't have it, either. I noticed a few dragons, the empyrean, and mind flayer as the monsters with Persuasion. NPCs get a higher fraction with persuasion: Cult fanatic, noble, and priest.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I think they avoid giving monsters social skills because they're not exactly able to 'persuade' the party.

This is actually a good point. Do you roll persuasion against your players? What's the DC? Do you give them a save? Do you tell them "sorry, you have been persuaded. You have to do X now"? Somehow I can't see it.

And if the Bone Devil is trying to persuade the townsfolk, well do you really need to roll that? It's not much fun for the players, watching the DM roll contested checks against themselves... If you think the Devil has the skills to trick some NPCs, why not just let it?

[Flashy]

In 5e, the Bone Devil has no magic at all. It's stuck looking like the misbegotten offspring of a Dracolich, only more evil. Right. That'll be all your +7 Deception and +3 Persuasion checks at disadvantage, please. So what are his options? Violent, brutal conquest? And then offer to let the children go if their parents surrender their souls? I guess it could work -- but it's more Baphomet than Asmodeus.

I totally get that you're objecting (justifiably) to the idea that fiends are less capable of manipulation in general with the default statblocks, but I wanted to point out that granting a monster skill proficiencies or at will disguise self doesn't actually change their CR. If you want to run a bone devil or a Baatezu are a subtle manipulator with light disguise or enchantment magic then you absolutely still can, and with essentially no effort.

[Kish]

Meh. The "when we said about both Chaotic and Lawful Evil 'this is the most dangerous alignment there is,' we meant it for Lawful Evil, and for Chaotic Evil haha you thought we were serious" implication of 3.5ed's "hordes of near-mindless-despite-high-mental-stats demons vastly outnumbering the devils who can match them anyway because of superior intellects" is a strong contender for my least favorite aspect of 3.5ed.

[Zozma]

This is actually a good point. Do you roll persuasion against your players? What's the DC? Do you give them a save? Do you tell them "sorry, you have been persuaded. You have to do X now"? Somehow I can't see it.

And if the Bone Devil is trying to persuade the townsfolk, well do you really need to roll that? It's not much fun for the players, watching the DM roll contested checks against themselves... If you think the Devil has the skills to trick some NPCs, why not just let it?

I think this is the idea behind it. There's no reason to give any conversation stat to monsters except deception, because in modern (most?) tabletop RPGs your player decide what their characters think and feel and can't be persuaded or intimidated without their consent. A monster doesn't need to roll to influence a NPC because that's just...plot. If my players called foul for having never rolled to justify every series of events that lead to the adventure, I'd probably get new players.

[ClintACK]

If you just take the MM stat block as 'this is what happens when you fight it' your Devils are free to do whatever they like. 5e stat-blocks are a lot smaller because they avoid the bloat necessary in explaining off-screen stuff like the more simulationist 3e.

I think they avoid giving monsters social skills because they're not exactly able to 'persuade' the party.

This is probably my real problem. I'm looking at the MM and expecting to see what I can do with this monster in an open world-building sense, but the MM is really written as combat stat blocks plus fluff. There's a chunk missing in the middle, but that's intentionally left blank for the DM to fill in, I guess.



Meh. The "when we said about both Chaotic and Lawful Evil 'this is the most dangerous alignment there is,' we meant it for Lawful Evil, and for Chaotic Evil haha you thought we were serious" implication of 3.5ed's "hordes of near-mindless-despite-high-mental-stats demons vastly outnumbering the devils who can match them anyway because of superior intellects" is a strong contender for my least favorite aspect of 3.5ed.

I *do* have to agree with this, mostly.

I start by rolling my eyes at the notion that dividing one infinite plane into nine organizational regions and dividing another infinite plane into many hundreds of organizational regions means that the second plane is *larger* than the first. It just means the Devils have larger administrative regions.

Organization does count, though. I loved the way the 3.5e Legion Devil worked -- the more of them were together in the unit, the stronger every one of them got. One alone was weaker than a Spine Devil, but a dozen of them together were a nightmare.

But I suppose I shouldn't have said devils are scarier -- they're just differently scary. :) The berserk, implacable violent hatred of a demon horde is also really terrifying. And at the higher levels, being driven mad is far scarier than being tricked into doing something wrong.

[MaxWilson]

Coming from AD&D, I definitely do miss all the fiends' special abilities. 5E Baatezu don't even have Alter Self!

It's easily fixed by referring to an AD&D-era MM, but the OP is right: clearly not a lot of thought has gone into using Baatezu for anything other than combat speedbumps.

If anyone has an SRD or DMsGuild product to update Baatezu to something more in keeping with classic (A)D&D, let me know and I will buy it.

[mgshamster]

Coming from AD&D, I definitely do miss all the fiends' special abilities. 5E Baatezu don't even have Alter Self!

It's easily fixed by referring to an AD&D-era MM, but the OP is right: clearly not a lot of thought has gone into using Baatezu for anything other than combat speedbumps.

If anyone has an SRD or DMsGuild product to update Baatezu to something more in keeping with classic (A)D&D, let me know and I will buy it.

And now I know my next project.

[Occasional Sage]

I start by rolling my eyes at the notion that dividing one infinite plane into nine organizational regions and dividing another infinite plane into many hundreds of organizational regions means that the second plane is *larger* than the first. It just means the Devils have larger administrative regions.


This is not how math works.

If you divide an infinite Plane into nine regions, they are all infinitely large.

If you divide an infinite Plane into many hundreds of regions, they are all infinitely large.

Whatever your amount of dividing or method of administration, both of the Planes and all of the organizational regions are equally sized.

[Saeviomage]

90% of the monsters now require you to have an older monster manual in order to use them as something other than a combat speedbump. It makes me wonder why they didn't just have "generic stat block for a CR X monster to fight" and a couple of build-your-own ability lists, followed by some nice artwork.

Personally I dig out my 2e AD&D binder of monster details when I want to do anything beyond kill people.

[MaxWilson]

This is not how math works.

If you divide an infinite Plane into nine regions, they are all infinitely large.

If you divide an infinite Plane into many hundreds of regions, they are all infinitely large.

Whatever your amount of dividing or method of administration, both of the Planes and all of the organizational regions are equally sized.

You misunderstand cardinality. There is no such thing as "equally sized" infinities; only "equivalent cardinalities".

[Grod_The_Giant]

90% of the monsters now require you to have an older monster manual in order to use them as something other than a combat speedbump. It makes me wonder why they didn't just have "generic stat block for a CR X monster to fight" and a couple of build-your-own ability lists, followed by some nice artwork.

Personally I dig out my 2e AD&D binder of monster details when I want to do anything beyond kill people.
Yeah. I just stated a campaign yesterday and was digging though the book looking for monsters that actually had interesting things to do, and it was downright depressing how many things had nothing to do but make attack rolls. I hope the new book they've announced has monsters with actual tactical depth.

[Aelyn]

You misunderstand cardinality. There is no such thing as "equally sized" infinities; only "equivalent cardinalities".

But he is right that dividing an infinite set into a finite number of equal subsets results in the subsets having the same cardinality as the original set and therefore being the same size, inasmuch as the word "size" makes sense when referring to infinities.

The language may be technically inaccurate, but the meaning behind it is correct.

An infinite plane split into two equal parts has each region being the same "size" as an infinite plane split into ten thousand equal parts.

[Envyus]

Baator is finite in a way. The Landmasses on each layer are finite. (Utterly massive but finite.) And while the Devils have massive numbers they are finite as well. The Hells are infinite in terms that if you choose to go off the land masses there (Which are flat) it would just go on forever.

The Abyss has an unknown number of layers with 666 known but it's likely their is not end to them. Some of these layers are infinite while others are finite. It depends on the layer.

Also the Devils were not able to keep up with the Demons because they were more intelligent. (As many Demons are very intelligent as well.) They were able to keep up because they are far more organized. While the Demons would always fight among themselves.

[SilverStud]

I would like to point something out. 5e is not a handholding edition that spells everything out for the DM. The vast majority of rulings are made on the spot, not in reference to some obscure errata like good ol' version 3.5. The only place where 5e has hard-and-fast rules is combat (and possibly spell discriptions). In the fluff for devils, they tell you that their goal is to bring souls into the Hells, or ascend the ranks, or be the very best. In the stat blocks, they (mostly) stick with combat stuff because nothing else needs those hard rules. What that strongly implies is that your minor lord of the 8th Hell can be suave and sophisticated and convincing, but fights like a maniac. As mentioned before, when do NPCs (and your Bone Devil is an NPC the minute he starts politicking) roll against each other? And if you want them to, you can just say "well my Bone Devils have Disguise Self and Expertise in Persuasion" and be done with it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

In the stat blocks, they (mostly) stick with combat stuff because nothing else needs those hard rules.
Which would be a better argument if some creatures didn't have social skills and/or abilities, such as the Rakshaha and Succubus/Incubus.

[MaxWilson]

But he is right that dividing an infinite set into a finite number of equal subsets results in the subsets having the same cardinality as the original set and therefore being the same size, inasmuch as the word "size" makes sense when referring to infinities.

The language may be technically inaccurate, but the meaning behind it is correct.

An infinite plane split into two equal parts has each region being the same "size" as an infinite plane split into ten thousand equal parts.

And yet, the sum of those two equal parts still has the same cardinality as the sum of those ten thousand parts. So the original point was also correct: Baator is not smaller than the Abyss, fewer subdivisions notwithstanding.

==========================


I would like to point something out. 5e is not a handholding edition that spells everything out for the DM. The vast majority of rulings are made on the spot, not in reference to some obscure errata like good ol' version 3.5. The only place where 5e has hard-and-fast rules is combat (and possibly spell discriptions). In the fluff for devils, they tell you that their goal is to bring souls into the Hells, or ascend the ranks, or be the very best. In the stat blocks, they (mostly) stick with combat stuff because nothing else needs those hard rules. What that strongly implies is that your minor lord of the 8th Hell can be suave and sophisticated and convincing, but fights like a maniac. As mentioned before, when do NPCs (and your Bone Devil is an NPC the minute he starts politicking) roll against each other? And if you want them to, you can just say "well my Bone Devils have Disguise Self and Expertise in Persuasion" and be done with it.

Yes, you could. And then what value are you getting out of the MM? The MM entry for Bone Devils is approximately as valuable as its entry for Abishai, which doesn't exist. In both cases you have to make up everything important about them, or import it from AD&D or perhaps 3E (I never played 3E so cannot vouch for the quality of its Baatezu).

[ClintACK]

... As mentioned before, when do NPCs (and your Bone Devil is an NPC the minute he starts politicking) roll against each other? And if you want them to, you can just say "well my Bone Devils have Disguise Self and Expertise in Persuasion" and be done with it.

I guess this is my problem. Of course NPCs aren't making rolls against each other, but nonetheless the world has to hang together logically (at least one layer deeper than the PCs probe it) -- otherwise it strains the suspension of disbelief.

And worse, the party can't make reasonable inferences and assumptions about the world. Seeing something that makes no sense (Wait, the intelligent and sophisticated noblewoman has invited a slobbering monosyllabic Troll into her home and is fawning all over him. I smell a rat.) is *supposed* to trigger their Spidey-senses.

I can fix all that by tacking things on to *my* versions of creatures. (Oh, *my* trolls all have Charm Person saliva. Watch out, they spit!) But instead of making the world more solid ground for the players to inhabit, this just makes it more random. Or else involves lots of "Make a Knowledge Check" OOC back-and-forth.

[Dr. Cliché]

With regard to the infinity aspect:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj3_KqkI9Zo

[Grod_The_Giant]

I can fix all that by tacking things on to *my* versions of creatures. (Oh, *my* trolls all have Charm Person saliva. Watch out, they spit!) But instead of making the world more solid ground for the players to inhabit, this just makes it more random. Or else involves lots of "Make a Knowledge Check" OOC back-and-forth.
As long as you stick to obvious abilities, like giving Devils social skills, you're probably fine on that from. Of course, the more the game tells you to do that sort of thing, the more insulting it gets. If I paid $60 for a Monster Manual, I want to be able to use it as-is. (Unless it's a point-buy game where making your own characters is the point, I guess)

[Envyus]

Here is a map of the nine Hells. While it's big the landmasses only simply a landmark in an infinite sky.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/sfery/images/4/48/101510.jpeg/revision/latest?cb=20140106000639

[Dr. Cliché]

This is actually a good point. Do you roll persuasion against your players? What's the DC? Do you give them a save? Do you tell them "sorry, you have been persuaded. You have to do X now"? Somehow I can't see it.

You wouldn't roll persuasion, but surely you'd still use it as a guide to how well the devil presents its case?

A monster with high persuasion can be expected to make good, well-reasoned arguments (or, at least, arguments that sound very reasonable).

In contrast, a monster with no skill at persuasion would, logically, be bad at persuading people. It would probably choose its words poorly, be blunt and insulting, use obviously bad reasoning etc.



And if the Bone Devil is trying to persuade the townsfolk, well do you really need to roll that?

You don't have to roll at all. However, the players may well be annoyed if a creature that would lose an argument against a stuffed iguana somehow persuaded an entire town to commit depraved acts or whatever.

Likewise, if you just ignore the terrible/nonexistent persuasion stat of a monster, they may ask for the same benefit every time they try to persuade someone. I mean, if they have better persuasion than the devil, but only have 50/50 odds of success (whilst it succeeds automatically), don't you think they have grounds to be irritated with you?

[Saeviomage]

Yeah. I just stated a campaign yesterday and was digging though the book looking for monsters that actually had interesting things to do, and it was downright depressing how many things had nothing to do but make attack rolls. I hope the new book they've announced has monsters with actual tactical depth.

Oh, well if I want tactical depth, then I'll break out the 4e monsters. Obviously the best of both worlds can be had by combining 2e and 3e fluff with 4e mechanics and the 5e rules.

That is one of the good things about 5e - a lot of the stuff from previous editions is useable with minimal changes.

Of course one wonders why the designers didn't just do that for me.

[bulbaquil]

I start by rolling my eyes at the notion that dividing one infinite plane into nine organizational regions and dividing another infinite plane into many hundreds of organizational regions means that the second plane is *larger* than the first. It just means the Devils have larger administrative regions.

I think a better analogy would be that saying Hell must be smaller than the Abyss because it is divided into 9 parts rather than 666 (or whatever) is like saying that the state of Arkansas, which is smaller in size and in population, must be "larger" than Arizona because Arkansas has 75 counties while Arizona only has 15. But we're dealing with infinities here anyway, and at that point size kind of breaks down because we don't actually know the cardinalities of the volumes of Hell and the Abyss.

[Xetheral]

And yet, the sum of those two equal parts still has the same cardinality as the sum of those ten thousand parts. So the original point was also correct: Baator is not smaller than the Abyss

Wait, why are you assuming the cardinality of the Abyss is the same as the cardinality of Baator? As I understand it, Baator has a finite number of layers, so even accounting for the possibility that each layer has unbounded volume we know that |Baator|<=|N|. By contrast the Abyss has an unlimited number of unbounded layers, which requires that |Abyss|>=|N| . So they *might* have the same cardinality, but I see no reason to assume it.

The number of layers (more formally, the size of the set of layers) is ultimately critical to determining the cardinality, because it's impossible for any volume of space to have cardinality greater than |N|. The only way for a plane as a whole to have greater cardinality is if the cardinality of the number of layers itself exceeds |N|.

Edit for clarification: When I refer to the cardinality of a volume of space I'm referring to the cardinality of the set of units of volume that space occupies, as opposed to the number of dimensionless points in that space. Accordingly, the cardinality of a bounded space is finite and the cardinality of an unbounded space equals |N|. If you want to instead count the number of points (not as useful, but more standard) then the cardinality of any volume of space, bounded or not, is equal to |R|. In that case the above analysis still holds true, since the number of layers of the abyss could still have even greater cardinality.

[MaxWilson]

Wait, why are you assuming the cardinality of the Abyss is the same as the cardinality of Baator? As I understand it, Baator has a finite number of layers, so even accounting for the possibility that each layer has infinite volume we know that |Baator|<=|R|. By contrast the Abyss has an unlimited number of unbounded layers, which requires that |Abyss|>=|R| . So they *might* have the same cardinality, but I see no reason to assume it.

The number of layers (more formally, the size of the set of layers) is ultimately critical to determining the cardinality, because it's impossible for any volume of space to have cardinality greater than |R|. The only way for a plane as a whole to have greater cardinality is if the cardinality of the number of layers itself exceeds |R|.

Because ClintACK's statement which I was responding to, as well as my memory of AD&D, both say that the Abyss has a large but finite (666?) number of layers. I could be wrong about that, or it could be controversial, but it is nevertheless the premise I'm discussing.


I start by rolling my eyes at the notion that dividing one infinite plane into nine organizational regions and dividing another infinite plane into many hundreds of organizational regions means that the second plane is *larger* than the first. It just means the Devils have larger administrative regions.

[Xetheral]

Because ClintACK's statement which I was responding to, as well as my memory of AD&D, both say that the Abyss has a large but finite (666?) number of layers. I could be wrong about that, or it could be controversial, but it is nevertheless the premise I'm discussing.

(Note: I edited my post just after you quoted it to correct an error and add additional clarification. It doesn't change anything in regards to your response.)

Fair enough. I was under the impression that the Abyss had an unbounded number of layers, but I too could be misremembering, or maybe it isn't consistent. So long as at least one layer of Baator is unbounded, then if the number of layers of the Abyss is finite (or has cardinality equal to |N|), then the two planes do indeed have the same cardinality.

[ClintACK]

I thought the Abyss had an unknown, and changing, but finite number of layers -- not an actually infinite number of layers.

I vaguely remember the strong implication that any time a demon became powerful enough to be a Demon Lord, it pulled together the stuff of the Abyss into a new Domain for itself -- which was essentially a new layer of the Abyss.

[Joe the Rat]

Size is weird in the outer planes. Many are infinite, yet have locations that you can walk to in less than a lifetime regardless of where you get landed. You think you can get somewhere, and you can, I guess*.

Since we aren't talking about different orders of infinities (Game designers don't always have a solid grasp on probability, never mind the hard stuff), we're dealing with garden-variety math-with-infinities.

In total, the Abyss isn't larger than the nine hells. A single infinite plane (such as the Limbo) is just as large as an arbitrarily large number of infinite planes, by the way infinity works. But I suspect the Abyss is a hyperbolic infinite - not a math term, but a literary infinity, meaning uncountable, or just a really really large number. So it's not about size.

It's about variety. The Nine Hells are Lawful Evil. They suck, but they are organized, prescribed, bounded in their varieties. The Abyss is Chaotic Evil. They suck, and can suck in every way imaginable, and then some. More combinations. More variations. More possibilities. Plegethos and Caina are Wicked Cold and Hella Wicked Cold. The Abyss has Wicked Cold, but can also have Wicked Cold Frozen Acid, Wicked Cold Acid Which Only Burns When Frozen, Frozen Acid Reverse Hail in a Salt Desert with Cacti Made of Eyes and Fire, Detroit in Winter, and possibly worse and stranger variations. Really, Demons should have the same amount of variation, but there is only so much space to devote to this in a Manual. The Hordlings tables of old can fill this gap.

Of Devils, Deals, and Demonic Deceptions: Demons are good at lies, and often better at soft words to get you to go along with an Obviously Bad Idea. That's their schtick. Corruption and change, and doing it your way. Downplay the negative, flat out tell you it's in your best interests. Encourage you to be a nasty, chaotic piece of work, because what harm could it do in the grand scheme of things.
Devils... well, a good accomplished devil should be able to get you to agree to an Obviously Bad Idea, but it is less about downplaying the negative consequences, and more about the set up. Everything is in print - perhaps small, perhaps baroque, but it's there. You're not getting suckered into something because they lied. You're getting suckered in because you didn't understand what you were doing. Devils - particularly those dedicated to collecting souls and Patronage - need to be smart. You are out-manuvering your mark on words and logic. The best devils are the ones who can take a simply worded document - where just how screwed you will be is spelled out in easy-to-read-common, and set things up to where losing your soul for that small benefit looks like your best option. Get them in that moment of Desperation. Make the offer, and wait until you reach the point where circumstances (possibly of the devil's own making) turn that infernal offer into your only option. Hell, the best of the best should get what you want to be exactly what they want to have happen.

Devils more need Intelligence (to plot) and Insight (to know what you want, and what will break you).

* - Planescape sets the idea of belief makes reality in the Outer Planes. Distance and Location are somewhat arbitrary.

[Envyus]

Of Devils, Deals, and Demonic Deceptions: Demons are good at lies, and often better at soft words to get you to go along with an Obviously Bad Idea. That's their schtick. Corruption and change, and doing it your way. Downplay the negative, flat out tell you it's in your best interests. Encourage you to be a nasty, chaotic piece of work, because what harm could it do in the grand scheme of things. .

When they do take the subtle approach (Which many Demons don't like on the grounds they could just maim and kill instead.) They are also under no obligation to keep their word. For the Demons that do like talking and corrupting like Glabrezu. They would likely offer power and other favors in exchange for the mortal doing the thing they need. It's pretty much assured they won't keep their end of the bargain or if they do they have something to gain from that and they won't permit you to back out in that case.

Devils deal in absolutes and twisting of words. If a promise or deal is made they will keep it to the letter. If they corrupt someone it will make Hell stronger and make the Devil look better for promotion and by extension that Devil's superiors. Just corrupting one mortal means one new devil will show up in hell. And they can't force anyone into contracts or deals.

Demons don't care about any of that. If they are going to corrupt a mortal it will be just because it will benefit that Demon. Corrupting Mortals for Demons has no benefit as the Demons have no end to their numbers in the first place. If they offer to make someone a king it's because they want to gain something they can only get from that person once they are a king. Their will be no choice in the matter for the person chosen. If they become King with the Demon's help they will no doubt be disposed off for having out lived their usefulness. If they have second thoughts midway they will force the matter, through torture or death to them or family. If they refuse in the first place. They will no doubt be killed and they will pick someone else. The most likely scenario is they offer something with no intention of granting it just to make the betrayal and death sting more.