Buckler?

[MatchesMalone]

I thought I had read somewhere that the buckler had been added recently to 5e. Does anyone know which book it is in? Also, if it for sure has been added, are rogues still proficient with it like before?

[DracoKnight]

I thought I had read somewhere that the buckler had been added recently to 5e. Does anyone know which book it is in? Also, if it for sure has been added, are rogues still proficient with it like before?

It has not been added. And Rogues do not get proficiency with shields, so if they ever do, it will be unlikely that Rogues will have access to bucklers except through a feat.

[MatchesMalone]

It has not been added. And Rogues do not get proficiency with shields, so if they ever do, it will be unlikely that Rogues will have access to bucklers except through a feat.

Well that really blows.

I could have sworn swashbuckler rogues in the past had proficiency with it.

[Cybren]

If I recall correctly, the swashbuckler from 3.5 did not have buckler proficiency. The D&D team seems to care less about that kind of resonance than the Magic the gathering team does, see also: party and riposte not having any synergy

[Stan]

Well that really blows.

I could have sworn swashbuckler rogues in the past had proficiency with it.

As I recall, what people did in 3e was to buy masterwork or magical bucklers, which reduced the penalty to 0 so, RAW, there was no cost to not being proficient.

[MatchesMalone]

If I recall correctly, the swashbuckler from 3.5 did not have buckler proficiency. The D&D team seems to care less about that kind of resonance than the Magic the gathering team does, see also: party and riposte not having any synergy


As I recall, what people did in 3e was to buy masterwork or magical bucklers, which reduced the penalty to 0 so, RAW, there was no cost to not being proficient.

Both of those must be what I was thinking of. Any suggestions here then as my DM won't allow a conversion.

[Rysto]

Both of those must be what I was thinking of. Any suggestions here then as my DM won't allow a conversion.

The Moderately Armoured feat would give shield proficiency and +1 Dex to a rogue.

[R.Shackleford]

The Moderately Armoured feat would give shield proficiency and +1 Dex to a rogue.

No no, you want to give them a +1 Str and then take Shield Mastery... ;)

[Quintessence]

Why isn't there just a shield proficiency feat :(

[R.Shackleford]

Why isn't there just a shield proficiency feat :(

Moderate Armored gives you shield, armor, and +1 str or dex...

Just ignore the medium armor?

[Quintessence]

Moderate Armored gives you shield, armor, and +1 str or dex...

Just ignore the medium armor?

Yea but my sorcerer can't take the moderately armored feat...

[Occasional Sage]

Both of those must be what I was thinking of. Any suggestions here then as my DM won't allow a conversion.

Suggestions for what? If you sketch out your character and your end goal, that'll help with receiving useful suggestions.

That's mine for the thread.

[R.Shackleford]

Yea but my sorcerer can't take the moderately armored feat...

Lightly Armored then moderately armored.

But why does a Sorcerer need shield prof? You have either dragon feature or mage armor plus shield whenever you need it...

You could just MC fighter I think you get shield prof?

[Quintessence]

Lightly Armored then moderately armored.

But why does a Sorcerer need shield prof? You have either dragon feature or mage armor plus shield whenever you need it...

You could just MC fighter I think you get shield prof?

I don't like multiclassing, Sorcerer is already gimped enough and I don't need to slow my spell progression. I was just working on making a dragon sorcerer gish for a campaign and ran into this problem.

[DiceDiceBaby]

As a Rogue with a longbow, I was able to convince my DM to houserule that I had a shield which added to my AC but could be worn even while I was drawing my bow. I suggested it to be flavored as an armguard and only give +1 AC, and apparently I got away with it at +2 AC because he played previous editions and felt there was nothing wrong with having a buckler in 5e (which was apparently what I was asking for; I had no clue!). If you really want a buckler, maybe your DM will allow you a similar compromise; a +1 (or +2) bonus to AC, that you can wield it while holding other weapons, but it may cost more than a regular shield and/or involve a special quest for procuring materials to make or demand additional training to obtain or use. I had to multiclass into Fighter for mine.

[hymer]

As a Rogue with a longbow, I was able to convince my DM to houserule that I had a shield which added to my AC but could be worn even while I was drawing my bow. I suggested it to be flavored as an armguard and only give +1 AC, and apparently I got away with it at +2 AC because he played previous editions and felt there was nothing wrong with having a buckler in 5e (which was apparently what I was asking for; I had no clue!). If you really want a buckler, maybe your DM will allow you a similar compromise; a +1 (or +2) bonus to AC, that you can wield it while holding other weapons, but it may cost more than a regular shield and/or involve a special quest for procuring materials to make or demand additional training to obtain or use. I had to multiclass into Fighter for mine.

Heck, just give everyone the same bonus to AC, and let them fluff as they like themselves. Or, you know, have people fluff that they're using a buckler, just don't let it have any benefit. Just don't let players that whine have bonuses that other players don't get.

[Kane0]

Buckler requires light armor proficiency, gives +1 AC (still needs a hand to hold it, no freebies!)
Shield requires medium armor proficiency, gives +2 AC
Tower shield requires heavy armor proficiency, gives +2 AC and half cover

[Arkhios]

Why isn't there just a shield proficiency feat :(


Yea but my sorcerer can't take the moderately armored feat...

Because a feat that would only grant shield proficiency would go against the design philosophy.

As for the OP: Take Dual Wielder feat, and use rapier and dagger like the real swashbucklers (such as Musketeers (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/84/42/ee/8442eec88f7eae63a052829665f98e60.jpg)) did, you'll net a +1 to AC (same as a buckler from earlier editions would give) and can draw both weapons with one action, and won't have any trouble with wielding non-light weapons in one or both hands. Swashbuckler in 5e doesn't have penalties wielding two weapons. If I recall, that bit was ridiculous about earlier editions' swashbucklers that they couldn't dual wield without penalties (and I'm not talking about the usual two-weapon fighting attack penalties here).

[xanderh]

A couple of corrections to points made in this thread:

First off, the buckler is a small shield with a centerline handle, usually made of metal, that was used with a one-handed sword, typically a cut-and-thrust type sword. While the rapier is capable of cutting, it wasn't typically used with a buckler. The point of a buckler wasn't to leave a hand free, but that you could carry it with you during your normal daily life. Besides, if you strap a buckler to your forearm, it's going to defend against one attack at best, is going to expose the shield hand when you defend, and it's going to rotate when it's hit, getting in the way and providing no additional protection.

Secondly, while rapier and dagger was a common combo, it wasn't done by swashbucklers. The term swashbuckler likely originates as a word for people carrying a sword and buckler everywhere.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Because a feat that would only grant shield proficiency would go against the design philosophy.

What if the feat also granted proficiency with swash?

[Dalebert]

I PROMISE I changed my signature BEFORE reading this thread!


Because a feat that would only grant shield proficiency would go against the design philosophy.

Exactly. It would be very UP and not worth taking. The medium armor one is clearly superior.

[Arkhios]

What if the feat also granted proficiency with swash?

Haha, good one :)

Would still be worse than Moderately Armored, though. Two proficiencies and nothing else would still need a little something.

[WickerNipple]

because he played previous editions and felt there was nothing wrong with having a buckler in 5e (which was apparently what I was asking for; I had no clue!).

Heh, I can't remember which edition of D&D woefully misrepresented the buckler because someone got the clever idea it was just a shield you "buckled" onto your arm.

A buckler is a small round shield that you hold in the hand like a fist. The type of shield you're talking about never really existed, which is why archers who wanted cover used a pavise.

[hymer]

Haha, good one :)

Would still be worse than Moderately Armored, though. Two proficiencies and nothing else would still need a little something.

I see what you mean. But Moderately Armored is one of the stronger feats, and perhaps not the most obvious thing to compare with. Effectively it gets you +4 (or +5 if you eat the disadvantage on stealth) to AC, and +1 to str or dex. Swash would have to be something mechanically wicked to match up to that. :smallwink:

[MatchesMalone]

Sorry for the delayed response, everyone! I've had limited service for a few days because of where I've been. If anyone wants to check out what my level 1 rogue looked like, I posted the Genasi Rogue thread about a month ago. I'll be updating it as soon as i arrive home here in a few hours.

[Cybren]

Buckler requires light armor proficiency, gives +1 AC (still needs a hand to hold it, no freebies!)
Shield requires medium armor proficiency, gives +2 AC
Tower shield requires heavy armor proficiency, gives +2 AC and half cover

I would go a step further and say you need a hand to hold a buckler, but a shield is worn with straps; the shield is heavy and cumbersome enough to prevent you from wielding anything in that hand, but you can manipulate simple objects like pull levers or hold spare javelins or some such in the shield hand. D&D for some reason got that backwards in previous editions. EDIT: The point has been made previously. that's what i get for reading older caches of threads left in my browser

[R.Shackleford]

I don't like multiclassing, Sorcerer is already gimped enough and I don't need to slow my spell progression. I was just working on making a dragon sorcerer gish for a campaign and ran into this problem.

The Sorcerer is not gimped at all. It is like 90% awesome.

It can blast well enough and it makes for an absolutely fantastic controller/debuffer/buffer.

Even with minor investment of dex (+1 mod) you will have a 14 AC, with Blur or more investment in Dex your AC is the least of your worries.

The Sorcerer may not be as well designed as it could have been, trust me I have my gripes, but it is far from gimped... Unless you specifically attempt to gimp it. The Sorcerer doesn't really lend itself to Gishing unless you multiclass, though that isn't a bug of the class.

I hate the multiclass system but it is what it is and that's pretty much how your gish with Sorcerers. If you want an Charisma arcane gish that is single class then I would look at a Warlock with Moderate Armored.

Just because your car doesn't float doesn't mean it is a bad car, it just wasn't designed to be a boat. If the game was set up where everyone could be a car or a boat and then yours didn't boat... You might have a problem. And now I'm thinking of LBJ and his car boat :smallbiggrin:

[Kane0]

I would go a step further and say you need a hand to hold a buckler, but a shield is worn with straps. -
D&D for some reason got that backwards in previous editions-

Most definitely. All three would need you to use your hand to be used properly but say the buckler can be donned/doffed with a free interaction where shields and towers need your action.

[Quintessence]

The Sorcerer is not gimped at all. It is like 90% awesome.

It can blast well enough and it makes for an absolutely fantastic controller/debuffer/buffer.

Even with minor investment of dex (+1 mod) you will have a 14 AC, with Blur or more investment in Dex your AC is the least of your worries.

The Sorcerer may not be as well designed as it could have been, trust me I have my gripes, but it is far from gimped... Unless you specifically attempt to gimp it. The Sorcerer doesn't really lend itself to Gishing unless you multiclass, though that isn't a bug of the class.

I hate the multiclass system but it is what it is and that's pretty much how your gish with Sorcerers. If you want an Charisma arcane gish that is single class then I would look at a Warlock with Moderate Armored.

Just because your car doesn't float doesn't mean it is a bad car, it just wasn't designed to be a boat. If the game was set up where everyone could be a car or a boat and then yours didn't boat... You might have a problem. And now I'm thinking of LBJ and his car boat :smallbiggrin:

Well how would you design a gish around the Sorcerer? Like Fighter 2/Sorcerer x or Paladin 2/Sorcerer x or Fighter 1/Sorcerer x

I am generally curious now because my current attempts at a single class gish Sorcerer are fairly fruitless :(

[RickAllison]

Well how would you design a gish around the Sorcerer? Like Fighter 2/Sorcerer x or Paladin 2/Sorcerer x or Fighter 1/Sorcerer x

I am generally curious now because my current attempts at a single class gish Sorcerer are fairly fruitless :(

Although I haven't played it, I've heard good things about Sorc X/Paladin 2. It plays off fueling Paladin smites using sorcerer slots, while Booming Blade/GFB can hold up your offense when you don't want to use slots.

[Arkhios]

I see what you mean. But Moderately Armored is one of the stronger feats, and perhaps not the most obvious thing to compare with. Effectively it gets you +4 (or +5 if you eat the disadvantage on stealth) to AC, and +1 to str or dex. Swash would have to be something mechanically wicked to match up to that. :smallwink:

To be honest, I actually intended to compare "Swash & Buckler proficiency feat" to Weapon Master (which increases Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20 AND gives proficiency with four weapons of your choice.) and Skilled (which gives a total of 3 proficiencies in skills or tools), both of which are considered to be a little on the UP side; in fact I compared it to Moderately Armored only because of previous context.
Both the Weapon Master and the Skilled are still better than "swash and buckler", unless, as you said, Swash is something "mechanically wicked". :)


Well how would you design a gish around the Sorcerer? Like Fighter 2/Sorcerer x or Paladin 2/Sorcerer x or Fighter 1/Sorcerer x

I am generally curious now because my current attempts at a single class gish Sorcerer are fairly fruitless :(

That's easy: Sticking to purely Player's Handbook and Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide options, Draconic Sorcerer is the superior gish origin due to its additional hit points (and inherent AC 13+Dex). Due to the cantrips mentioned below, I'd prefer taking either Gold or Red Dragon origin, because Green-Flame Blade deals fire damage and your 6th level feature would then add your charisma to fire based spell's damage (cantrips are spells!). I suppose you could work with your DM that there would be a thunder-based dragon, in which case Booming Blade would work even better. It's a bit of a long shot though.



Mountain Dwarf, pure Draconic Sorcerer if you want some armor and decent melee weapon proficiencies without multiclassing. You'll still lack the shield proficiency, but it gets in the way sooner or later anyway.

with standard array (point-buy is worse in this case):

Str 15, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 15
At first level you can boast a pretty decent AC 15 without any armor, and once you gather enough gold (50gp), you can buy scale mail or better and keep improving from there with magical armors. The key is that you don't need higher than 14 Dexterity, ever. Your melee is covered by two-handed melee attacks with warhammer or battleaxe (1d10 is quite alright already) plus the usual Green-Flame Blade (or Booming Blade), and to cover ranged attacks you can grab any ranged cantrip you want (Fire Bolt if you go with Gold/Red dragon origin). Your Hit Points start at 9, pretty close to that of a cleric, and you have an AC that's likely equal with a cleric.

@ 4th level: ASI into Str & Cha (recommended). -> Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16 (AC: 16 (scale mail; unless you can afford half-plate, then 17), HP: 30, great melee potential with warhammer or battleaxe held in two hands: 1d10 weapon damage die)



Hill Dwarf, pure Draconic Sorcerer if you can live with low strength and medium Dexterity, and slightly less potential gish attacks, but in return want huge hit points (for a sorcerer anyway).

with point-buy (standard array is worse in this case):

Str 8, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 15
Starting at first level you can boast an AC 15 without armor, and it'll continue to increase with future increases to your Dexterity (which you'll want with this build). While your melee weapon options are limited to the dagger only, don't shy away, because a 1d4 isn't that bad in 5th edition. Plus you can still have the cantrip Green-Flame Blade (or Booming Blade) which will boost your melee damage remarkably. Hit points are your schtick, starting with 11 at first level, enabling you to walk side by side with a cleric with somewhat equal defenses.

@ 4th level: ASI into Dex & Cha (recommended). -> Str 8, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16 (AC 16 (draconic resilience + Dex), HP: 38; your armor class, saving throws, primary attack and damage abilities improve)



Stout Halfling, pure Draconic Sorcerer if you want slightly higher dexterity and alright hit points, but again low strength.

With Point-Buy:
Str 8, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 15 (sometimes a little dunce can be fun to play ^^)
Starting at first level you would have so far the greatest AC (compared to the previous two): 16, and your hit points would be at the same whopping 11 as your hill dwarf counterpart. In fact, forget the hill dwarf, this one is clearly better. Halfling luck, same resistances against poison as dwarves have, and on top of that nice racial Dexterity boost. And your dagger bites hard.

@ 4th level: ASI into Dex & Cha (recommended). -> Str 8, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 16 (AC 17, HP: 38)



Lightfoot Halfling, pure Draconic Sorcerer if you want high dexterity, and decent Charisma, and won't mind a bit less hit points.
With Point-Buy:
Str 8, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 16 (again, a dunce halfling can be lots of fun; think of a certain kender for example :P)
Again, like your stout cousin, your AC would be at 16, but like your counterpart - the mountain dwarf, your hit points would be at 9. On the plus side, you can hide behind your friends and lunge into melee with ease. A rogue dip might be tempting, but not necessary if you don't like the idea. Again, your dagger bites hard.

@ 4th level: ASI into Dex & Con (recommended). -> Str 8, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 16 (AC 17, HP: 34 - slightly less than a Stout has, but still great!)

[Joe the Rat]

Heh, I can't remember which edition of D&D woefully misrepresented the buckler because someone got the clever idea it was just a shield you "buckled" onto your arm.

A buckler is a small round shield that you hold in the hand like a fist. The type of shield you're talking about never really existed, which is why archers who wanted cover used a pavise.That would be first edition. In D&D world, an oddly attached targe or overarmored vambrace is a "buckler". And studded leather is totally not misrepresented brigandine.

For the Rogue: if you are going "real" buckler, then go dual wielding (as Arkhios suggested), buy a metal "club" (in case you want to punch someone with that big metal plate), and take advantage of the +1AC. For a "D&D" buckler, you'll need a houserule. Either it gets lumped in with light armor, requires sheild prof (so get moderately armored), or requires a special proficiency (see below).

For the Sorcerer: Since you come in lacking gishy weapons, see if your DM would allow you to take shield prof in place of 1-2 weapon profs, and get Weapon Master. Or take a level or Bard (still advancing spell slots) and the Mod Armored feat, or take a level of Druid or Cleric for the armor and utility spells, Wisdom permitting. Or spend 250 downtime days training for shield proficiency.