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13_CBS
2007-07-01, 06:10 PM
Eh, nevermind.

thehothead
2007-07-01, 06:12 PM
Be Pun-Pun

I don't honestly know. Do the nine hells have any moons?

13_CBS
2007-07-01, 06:15 PM
Nothing blatantly powerful (including, but not limited to, extreme DM intervention ("All good dieties suddenly appear in Asmodeus's palace, blowing it to smithereens!"), horrid rule bending (Pun-Puns or otherwise), and wishes barring those that mirror spell effects).



:smalltongue:

(I know you're joking)

13_CBS
2007-07-01, 06:17 PM
Sorry for the double post, but the restrictions have been edited.

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-01, 06:20 PM
You're killin' us here! First you ban the manipulation of souls, and then you ban the manipulation of Archdevils? Come on!

Emperor Tippy
2007-07-01, 06:22 PM
So your allowing Epic Spellcasting?

Well if Epic Spellcasting is banned I would go with an Epic Bard. You can get diplomacy high enough that Asmodeus is automatically fanatically loyal to you.

thehothead
2007-07-01, 06:25 PM
Do the nine hells have any moons? Cause I know what I would do if it does.

13_CBS
2007-07-01, 06:29 PM
So your allowing Epic Spellcasting?

Well if Epic Spellcasting is banned I would go with an Epic Bard. You can get diplomacy high enough that Asmodeus is automatically fanatically loyal to you.

...sure. You could do that. I was hoping, however, for a description of a high-level adventure involving much devil slaying and epic battles...

New restrictions posted.

Kizara
2007-07-01, 06:30 PM
Some questions:

Maximum allowed level?
Maximum allowed number of characters?
Do you have to get effective control over all 9 layers of hell (impossible with a small force of heros) or just kill asmodeous and/or the other lords of the 9?

Can we use Epic Cheese of Auto-Win?
Can we use artificer cheese?
Can we use Gate cheese? (Gateing infinate solars since 3.0!)
(In respect to question 1 and ECL) are non-standard races allowed?
Can we use frenzied beserker/charger cheese?
Can we use 3.0 material?

13_CBS
2007-07-01, 06:33 PM
Some questions:

Maximum allowed level?
Maximum allowed number of characters?
Do you have to get effective control over all 9 layers of hell (impossible with a small force of heros) or just kill asmodeous and/or the other lords of the 9?

Can we use Epic Cheese of Auto-Win?
Can we use artificer cheese?
Can we use Gate cheese? (Gateing infinate solars since 3.0!)
(In respect to question 1 and ECL) are non-standard races allowed?
Can we use frenzied beserker/charger cheese?
Can we use 3.0 material?

1)Max level: 25.
2)Max PCs: 4.
3) You decide.
4) I'd prefer if you didn't.
5) Ditto.
6) Ditto.
7) Permitted races listed in the restrictions.
8) I'd prefer if you didn't, but I'm unfamiliar with how broken this one is, so...
9) 3.5 Only.

Please read the restrictions carefully! Many of these questions have already been answered in the restrictions.

TheLogman
2007-07-01, 06:33 PM
This is ridiculously easy.

Epic Spellcasting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm) Wins, now.

Quite simple.

What's each Devil Lord's Spell Resistance, and what is his fortitude saving throw? It doesn't really matter what it is. Take the fortitude bonus he gets, and every point of spell resistance, plus 20. You have that? Good. Now, summon that many Solars divided by five by the Gate spell and explain your quest. If you can't cast enough gates that day, then wait until the next day, and cast more. You can even buy scrolls of gate, as long as you have at least 270,000 gp left Ask them to help you cast a spell to destory the Nine Hells. Now, cast an Epic spell, Kill, focused on the first demon lord. He can't save against it, since you've made sure you automatically penetrate their spell resistance, and the fortitude save is too high for him. Rinse and repeat, summoning more solars or expending extra time or money to lower the Dc if the Demon Lord has a higher SR or Fort Save.

Edit: Wow FOUR Pc's? Sweet, that makes the time it takes to kill them all 1/4th as long.'

bigbaddragon
2007-07-01, 06:35 PM
I think I saw somewhere some guy researching epic spell that summons a solar, PERMANENT. So summon yourself a legion and send them and go make yourself a lunch or popcorn.

13_CBS
2007-07-01, 06:36 PM
Again, you may use Epic spellcasting if you wish, but Id really like it if someone devised an epic, lead-the-forces-of-good-against-evil sort of thing rather than use the Win Button...

Citizen Joe
2007-07-01, 06:36 PM
I think the plan would be something along the lines of making a deal with 5 of the archdevils to off the other four... then cutting a deal with 3 of the remaining to wipe out the other 2. Then 2 on 1 and half way through that battle you turn on all three and wipe them out when they are weak.

Saph
2007-07-01, 06:37 PM
I think a better way to phrase it would be: "The winner of the contest is the one who comes up with the plan that would be least likely to be vetoed or banned by a DM."

- Saph

Callos_DeTerran
2007-07-01, 06:38 PM
Its simple.

It doesn't happen.

Whatever plan you think up, Big A has thought it first.

Whatever futile artifact or build you'll try, he has a specific and definitly fatal reply to it.

In the Nine Hells, you don't conquer, it conquers you.*

*This post should only be taken semi-seriously for the purpose of this thread. It's meant as a joke with only one absolute truth lurking behind...it's probably true. If there was ever an original Batman in D&D, it IS Asmodeus.


Also...No..Baator does not have a moon. Or nine of them since theres nine different layers for those planning to crash a moon.

13_CBS
2007-07-01, 06:38 PM
I think a better way to phrase it would be: "The winner of the contest is the one who comes up with the plan that would be least likely to be vetoed or banned by a DM."

- Saph

I might post that, but then I'm afraid that this might devolve into "A "sane" DM would do this" sort of arguement...

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-01, 06:38 PM
13_CBS: We in the Gaming forums are an awfully efficient lot. It looks like (if you want some Epic that isn't followed by Cheese, Diplomacy, or Spellcasting) you would have better luck actually starting a game in the PBP Games forums.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-07-01, 06:38 PM
1. [race] Wizard 21.
2. Take the feat "Epic Spellcasting"
3. Make, and cast "Genocide: Devil"
4. ?????
5. Profit!
Epic Spellcasting. It's just that broken.

Edit: Ninjaed by like, 15 minutes and like, thirteen people. Hm.

thehothead
2007-07-01, 06:39 PM
I ask again, do the nine hells have any moons?

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-01, 06:40 PM
They do not.

13_CBS
2007-07-01, 06:40 PM
13_CBS: We in the Gaming forums are an awfully efficient lot. It looks like (if you want some Epic that isn't followed by Cheese, Diplomacy, or Spellcasting) you would have better luck actually starting a game in the PBP Games forums.

I might do that, but read the disclaimer: I've never played D&D or any Tabletop before. Ever.

If someone was kind enough to run a game like that here, I'd be more than happy to watch. However, due to my inexperience with this game it's probably better if I player as neither a DM or a player.

TheLogman
2007-07-01, 06:41 PM
Oh, it seems that you'd prefer that no Epic Cheese? Well, you know how there's always Wars and stuff in the 9 Hells? Let's make one of these. Find out what different groups are uneasy allies in the current Regime. Choose a Spell-like ability of one of them, blast another one of them with it. Make your party Bard cast the suggestion spells that are impossible to save against using Bard Cheese (http://www.nuklearpower.com/redmage29.php) (It does exist!). Inspire fighting everywhere. Now, step in, disguised using Epic Spellcasting, or more Bard cheese (http://www.nuklearpower.com/redmage29.php), and conquer the area, getting support from all the demons, use suggestions if necessary. Rinse and Repeat for all the areas.

Kizara
2007-07-01, 06:45 PM
"Originally Posted by Tor the Fallen
Artificer 15

Items: Wands of Ennervation.
Feats:
Quicken
Split Ray
Twin Spell
Empower Spell
Maximize Spell

If you hit, and overcome spell resistance, you're going to drain 40 negative levels, no save."

Oh, 10 more levels? Um... staves of energy drain with epic metamagic feats?

thehothead
2007-07-01, 06:46 PM
Step one: Summon a large amount of air elementals.
Step two: Get air elementals to lift a single house sized rock with antimagic feild cast on it directly above one of the devil lords' residences.
Step three: Instruct air elementals to drop rock.
Step four: Laugh at crushed devil lord.
Step five: Repeat 8 times.

Kizara
2007-07-01, 06:47 PM
Step one: Summon a large amount of air elementals.
Step two: Get air elementals to lift a single house sized rock with antimagic feild cast on it directly above one of the devil lords' residences.
Step three: Instruct air elementals to drop rock.
Step four: Laugh at crushed devil lord.
Step five: Repeat 8 times.

Your anti-magic rock supresses the air-elementals maybe? That's before you even get it to your gate spell.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-07-01, 06:50 PM
Step one: Summon a large amount of air elementals.
Step two: Get air elementals to lift a single house sized rock with antimagic feild cast on it directly above one of the devil lords' residences.
Step three: Instruct air elementals to drop rock.
Step four: Laugh at crushed devil lord.
Step five: Repeat 8 times.


2. Get air elementals to lift a single house sized rock with anitmagic field cast on it and then disappear because they are summoned creatures in an anti-magic field.

thehothead
2007-07-01, 06:51 PM
...



switch that to ASKING air elementals to help. Problem solved.

Citizen Joe
2007-07-01, 06:53 PM
Step one: Summon a large amount of air elementals.
Step two: Get air elementals to lift a single house sized rock with antimagic feild cast on it directly above one of the devil lords' residences.
Step three: Instruct air elementals to drop rock.
Step four: Laugh at crushed devil lord.
Step five: Repeat 8 times.

1: I'm not entirely sure you can summon elementals into the outer planes, since the elementals come from the inner planes, thus like 4 planes removed.
2: I'm not entirely sure that gravity works the way you think it does in Hell.
3: Even if you did manage to somehow lift a house sized rock, how can you be so sure, what with teleport at will, that the devil is in fact IN his residence?

Ninja Chocobo
2007-07-01, 06:53 PM
Alright, new plan.
4 people you say?
Alright. 4 Wizards. Greater Teleport so they're directly next to Asmodeus.
Quickened Shapechange into Chronotyryns, followed by Maximised Time Stop.
Each Wizard can then cast 20 Maximised Enervations (10 normal, 10 Quickened), which gives 80 negative levels. Each.
Then, take his scepter, the Ruby Rod of Asmodeus.
Now you control Baator. Congratulations.

bigbaddragon
2007-07-01, 06:57 PM
Good Cleric + Holy Word? Nongood creatures with 15 HD (16 HD with good domain) or less die immediately.

Are there ways to pump up caster level for divine spellcasting like you can pump up CL for arcane spellcasting (stuff like ring of arcane mastery but for divine spells)?

TheLogman
2007-07-01, 06:57 PM
Oh, I have a third idea. Those Devil Guys are like Lawful right? I think so. If they are lawful, then they would probably obey the rules and laws of economics. So, here's the way to take over the Hells with the best and most powerful force ever, economics!

Choose an item that is fairly uncommon in the area, a certain type or rock, or a creature or something, there are quite a few, but they are limited in number. Advertise you are selling some item that makes the Devils more powerful, any magic item really. Ask in return 5 of said item. Continue the sales until you have all the rocks. Now, advertise a rarer item, but demand the same Rocks or whatever. Now, the Devils have an item they really want, but they have no way to get more rocks. So, they ask you how to get rocks. Tell them you will write up a contract. The contract details stuff that basically demands loyalty, or their allegiance in a fight. Eventually, the Devils are trading the rocks among themselves, and you've created a currency. Now, once you have enough Devil contracts, demand that you are cashing in said contracts, and have them kill the leader, who they probably don't like much anyway. Continue until all the Devil lords are dead.

Kizara
2007-07-01, 07:03 PM
Alright, new plan.
4 people you say?
Alright. 4 Wizards. Greater Teleport so they're directly next to Asmodeus.
Quickened Shapechange into Chronotyryns, followed by Maximised Time Stop.
Each Wizard can then cast 20 Maximised Enervations (10 normal, 10 Quickened), which gives 80 negative levels. Each.
Then, take his scepter, the Ruby Rod of Asmodeus.
Now you control Baator. Congratulations.

Ever heard of forbiddance?

And as to the OP, if its your first time ever playing D&D, start a weee bit smaller and work your way up would be my suggestion.

Make lvl 1-3 characters, make an adventure, explore it. Realize as you and your players learn the system the first 2-3 campaigns may be write-offs.

Once you have learned the system, you can look at bigger stuff. Look, DMing a mid-level game (lvl 8-13) can be challanging enough, let alone an EPIC one. As with anything, the more variables something has the more complex and therefore more unstable it is. Epic play, with the most variables (levels, accessible abilities, possible combinations) is the most unstable and therefore generally the most broken level of play.


To the logman: The devil's kill you and take all your silly rocks. LOL, you think Devil's play fair or give a crap about what you are aksing? Your rock-merchant needs POWER or nobody is going to CARE what price you are asking, they just are going to take it.

Jack_Simth
2007-07-01, 07:06 PM
First off: you realize that, by definition, anything that makes this possible will be cheesy, right?

Epic Spells!

Party of four, everyone's a full caster (We have a Sorcerer, Wizard, Cleric, and Druid), everyone has Epic Spell casting, everyone has Leadership, everyone has a full caster cohort (Wizard, Cleric, or Druid - no Sorcerers, as we need them to have 9th level spell slots). I'm ignoring the cheese that comes with caster followers (for now, at least).

With 3 Epic spell slots contributed (party), and 4 9th level spell slots contributed (Cohorts), that's a mitigating factor of -125 right off the bat. An extra 8 minutes casting time (9 minutes total) puts that to -141.

Summon is base DC 14, giving a CR 2 or less outsider for 20 rounds (two minutes). +2 DC for each +1 CR. Permanent is *5, after enhancements but before mitigation. So for a Permanent Summon, we're looking at DC 70, +10 DC for each +1 CR. At -141 from time and slots, we can mitigate a CR 12 Outsider down to DC 0 (-1, technically - which also means no development gp cost, no development XP cost, and no development time). Thereafter, we have an outsider thrall. What do we pick? A Couatl. CR 10 Outsider, casts as a Sorcerer-9 - which means it has four 4th level spell slots each day.

Now, we can pull this spell off twice per day (initially - cheese WILL follow), and each casting summons another Couatl to contribute a 4th level spell slot - which is a mitigating factor of -7. We pick up two on the first day.

Once we have ten of them (five days), we research another epic spell that assumes we'll have ten Sorcerer-9's willing to donate 4th level spell slots. So we've got 3 donated Epic spell slots (3*-19), four cohorts donating 9th level spell slots (4*-17), and ten Couatl's donating 4th level spell slots (10*-7), and we still take an extra 8 minutes on the casting (8*-2) for a mitigation DC of -211. We make a different Permanent Summon. We're looking for a CR 16 outsider (DC (14(Base)+14*2 (Base CR 2, +14 CR))*5=210). What do we take? A Planetar. Casts as a Cleric-17, for 9th level spell slots, for a -17 mitigating factor each. Again, we can still do this twice per day (all casters have at least two of their highest-level spell slots). We have two of them on the end of day 6.

Each Planetar adds a 9th level spell slot, and we're getting them at two per day. After seven days of this (day 12) we have 14 Planetars. At this point, we have, for each Epic spell:
3 donated Epic spell slots (3*-19) from party members.
4 donated 9th level spell slots (4*-17) from Cohorts.
10 "donated" 4th level spell slots (10*-7) from Couatls.
14 "donated" 9th level spell slots (14*-17) from Planetars.

This gives us a mitigating factor of -433.

Now we look at another clause of Summon: You can double the DC to summon another critter of the same CR. So we research another DC 0 (technically, DC -13) Epic Spell to Permanently Summon two Planetars per casting. We can still do this twice per day; now we get four Planetars per day, Permanently.

After another three days (Day 15), we've got another 12 Planetars (for a total of 26. This gives us yet another -204 in Mitigation, for a total of -637; at which point, we can add a third Planetar into the Summoning mix, which we can still cast twice per day (thanks to D&D Maths, with the listed order of operations (Permanent last, but before mitigation), a Permanent Three Planetar Summon has a pre-mitigation DC of 630). We now pick up Planetars at the rate of six per day. After two days (day 17), we're in range of adding a few minutes to the casting to make it a four-Planetar summon.

We keep this up as long as we feel like - and it's exponential growth. On day 365 (one year), we can mitigate a DC of approximately 3.7*10^25 to 0. On day 730 (two years), we can mitigate a DC of approximately 2.27*10^49 to 0.

What's the Epic DC to destroy a plane in its entirety? Shouldn't be that hard.....

Edit:
Dang it! You edited while I was posting....

Well, if you've got a party of four, and you want to do it in an adventure fashion, it's basically up to the DM. However you pull it off, you're essentially running a series of nine raids (one for each demon lord), or a series of nine infinite wars (to clean out the planes) in a basic search and destroy.

Citizen Joe
2007-07-01, 07:09 PM
Alright, new plan.
4 people you say?
Alright. 4 Wizards. Greater Teleport so they're directly next to Asmodeus.
Quickened Shapechange into Chronotyryns, followed by Maximised Time Stop.
Each Wizard can then cast 20 Maximised Enervations (10 normal, 10 Quickened), which gives 80 negative levels. Each.
Then, take his scepter, the Ruby Rod of Asmodeus.
Now you control Baator. Congratulations.

1: Greater Teleport does NOT allow for interplanar travel, plus you need to know where Asmodeus IS not just 'next to Asmodeus'.
2: I'm not entirely sure that Asmodeus is vulnerable to energy drains

TheLogman
2007-07-01, 07:13 PM
But, at some point, each Devil is really a businessman aren't they?

@Kizara Anyway, you forget these guys are level 25, and there are 4 of them right? Making deals with low level Devils that you could kill easily would be easy, even a CR 25 Devil would back off since at least one of you is a Wizard. There is power in numbers, even if each individual is weaker than you.

13_CBS
2007-07-01, 07:14 PM
So is this simply not possible to pull off without slipping into cheese? Surely there's some way of taking out Baator without getting cheesy.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-07-01, 07:18 PM
1: Greater Teleport does NOT allow for interplanar travel, plus you need to know where Asmodeus IS not just 'next to Asmodeus'.
2: I'm not entirely sure that Asmodeus is vulnerable to energy drains

Not to mention you wouldn't be able to cast enveneration at Asmodeus while in this maximized time stop. Read the spell, don't just assume it will win you a battle cause your casting devastating spells during it.

Emperor Tippy
2007-07-01, 07:18 PM
So is this simply not possible to pull off without slipping into cheese? Surely there's some way of taking out Baator without getting cheesy.

No there isn't.

The demons have been fighting them for thousands of years and haven't even made a dent. The good gods haven't managed to find a way to boot Asmodeus out.

A single level 25 wizard could do it though, thanks to epic casting cheese.

It can actually be done at level 8 do to gate cheese can the candle of invocation.

TheLogman
2007-07-01, 07:20 PM
Dude, Baator is a freaking Plane or bigger. It has an infinite number of Devils, and a leader with Infinity-1000 power. Each Level of Hell's leader is 100 stronger, so the most powerful one has Infinity-100 power. Asking us to do this is like asking us to put out and cool off the entire Plane of Fire, to 10 degrees Celsius, without doing anything of near infinite power.

13_CBS
2007-07-01, 07:20 PM
I see. No point in this thread, then.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-07-01, 07:23 PM
So is this simply not possible to pull off without slipping into cheese? Surely there's some way of taking out Baator without getting cheesy.

To be perfectly honest, if the DM is playing Devil's how they should be played....No, not really. Devils are the most coniving creatures in all the planes and the most organized evil force. Their lead by some of the craftiest and powerful creatures in existence (Lets not include the Far Realm here). Baator has survived countless assaults from the infinite hoards of the Abyss and the Upper Planes and will survive many more (with a finite number of devils nonetheless). Not to mention (Depending on which devil inspired lie your going by) their very existence is sanctioned by the laws of reality. They are legally certified to exist. Mounting an assault on the Nine Hells is tantamount to suicide at most levels, and even if you somehow manage to succede then you'll most likely return home to find everything you ever loved destroyed and defiled because their just that spiteful.

Jack_Simth
2007-07-01, 07:23 PM
So is this simply not possible to pull off without slipping into cheese? Surely there's some way of taking out Baator without getting cheesy.
Well, you can, but not reliably, and not without making highly specific assumptions on the builds for the demon lords, the layout of their fortresses, the layouts of the planes, how they surround themselves with minions, and so forth.

Bassetking
2007-07-01, 08:19 PM
I could produce a build that could, theoretically, deal enough damage to each of the Nine Hells, individually, to utterly, totally, completely destroy them...

And I could do it Pre-Epic, and without any spell-casting beyond level 1, and a way to get onto the plane.

I'm just really not certain how I would manage extraction of the PC's after the event, whether or not they would survive, or if the complete dissolution of the Hell would count as a victory under the exercise.

TheLogman
2007-07-01, 08:30 PM
On the subject of destroying Hell, if any of you guys own the Tome of Magic, there is a Vestige (Creature that either went insane, was extremely powerful, or a god that something bad happened to) that was a Solar of Epic Strength. She was assigned the quest to destroy all evil. She started with the 9 Hells. Anyone wanna guess why she became a vestige? The answer is not the second or third way of becoming a vestige if you need a hint.

Oh, and basset, we know how smart and rules savvy you are, please oh please tell us your secrets? Does it involve Genesis? There's an idea, destory each plane with Genesis, make the places a void of nothing, it may take a few years to get the Anit-Genesis big enough, but you could always make another, or two, or five-hundred.

Emperor Tippy
2007-07-01, 08:56 PM
I'm guessing its the infinite damage build.

NEO|Phyte
2007-07-01, 08:59 PM
Ok, I think I can do this...

PC 1: Warblade 15/BloodStorm Blade 10. Important grabs: Point-Blank Shot, Far Shot, Distant Shot, Blood in the Water.

PCs 2-4: As high CHA as possible, Leadership, Epic Leadership, Legendary Commander, make at least 1 of them a Sorcerer with the needed spells to get to/from Baator.

Gear: Lets say PC 1 is using a +1 Keen Falchion for this little adventure, along with whatever armor and gear would be needed to survive in the hells. PCs 2-4 have similar survival gear, and have scrolls of (Greater) Planeshift and Greater teleport.

How it works:
PCs 2-4 gather all of their followers onto a nice featureless plane/plain, such that PC 1 is able to see all of them. PC 1 activates his Blood in the Water stance if he hasn't already, then next turn, uses a swift action to activate Thunderous Throw, then uses a Full-round action to use Blade Storm, attacking ALL of PCs 2-4's followers for nonlethal damage. Since the vast majority of these followers are level 1, odds are PC 1 is only missing on a one. His threat range is 15-20, and on confirm rolls, he is similarly only missing on a one, meaning there is a 23.75% chance that any given attack is a critical hit, if my math is correct. If the leadership score of the other PCs is only 30, that makes 9000 first level followers, and an average of 2137.5 crits. Thanks to Blood in the Water, each of these crits has given PC 1 a stacking untyped +1 bonus to attack and damage, that will last until a minute passes without PC 1 landing a crit. At this point, they Planeshift into Baator, and start moving as quickly as possible towards the first target, pausing at regular intervals for PC 1 to ginsu up some Devils and maintain the BitW bonus. This continues until he can see one of the primary targets, at which point he unleashes full attacks until an attack hits and most probably vaporizes the victim. Repeat as needed. If the BitW bonus is lost, return to the followers and make another masswhack at them for nonlethal.

Bassetking
2007-07-01, 11:36 PM
I'm guessing its the infinite damage build.

Tippy is correct in his assumption about it being the 1d2 Crusader; the question becomes as follows.

"Were I to physically attack, say... Nessus, as a plane, could I infer the damage I dealt upon the plane in my infinite quantity"?

More succinctly... Can I hit the Ground? Could I deal my damage to the plane as an object?

These questions stray DEEPLY into the realm of DM Fiat, as there is little to no crunch designed around the mechanics of dealing with massive assaults against landscape, or, more aptly, the mechanics of handling damage in infinite quantities.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-07-01, 11:43 PM
Maybe you folks can find a way to defeat Asmodeus. I doubt a DM would let you get away with anything easy, as Asmodeus of all beings would see it coming, but maybe you can.

The real question is, can anyone defeat Invisible Christopher Walken?

Ninja Chocobo
2007-07-02, 01:26 AM
1: Greater Teleport does NOT allow for interplanar travel, plus you need to know where Asmodeus IS not just 'next to Asmodeus'.
2: I'm not entirely sure that Asmodeus is vulnerable to energy drains

1. I assumed that the party was already on the plane. Where Asmodeus is can easily be obtained with various divination spells.

2. Hm. I must have missed that bit in FCII.

Not to mention you wouldn't be able to cast enveneration at Asmodeus while in this maximized time stop. Read the spell, don't just assume it will win you a battle cause your casting devastating spells during it.
I don't see why I can't cast Enervation during a Time Stop. I mean, I've got the actions.

Jack Mann
2007-07-02, 01:40 AM
You have the actions. But you cannot attack or target anyone with spells while you are in the timestop. Timestop doesn't work that way. Re-read the spell description.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-07-02, 01:54 AM
You have the actions. But you cannot attack or target anyone with spells while you are in the timestop. Timestop doesn't work that way. Re-read the spell description.

...
How, exactly, did I miss that? I must've read that...*counts on fingers*...a LOT of times.
I'm going to go hang my head in shame, now.

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-02, 06:06 AM
Asmodeus is so lamely overcheesed that fighting him is like unto fighting a God that you cannot kill. Frankly, I'm sick and tired of that arrogant aristocratic ass being in charge. If he's ever disposed of, the Abyss should rule.

Armads
2007-07-02, 06:16 AM
Tippy is correct in his assumption about it being the 1d2 Crusader; the question becomes as follows.

Eh? All I heard of was the crusader who used a small shruiken, but that doesn't work, because you don't roll the dice. It's not a d1, it's 1.

Emperor Tippy
2007-07-02, 08:59 AM
Eh? All I heard of was the crusader who used a small shruiken, but that doesn't work, because you don't roll the dice. It's not a d1, it's 1.

Check out the best power builds thread.

Armads
2007-07-02, 09:40 AM
Ah, I see.

Complete Champion makes everything better!

Dragonmuncher
2007-07-02, 09:45 AM
Asmodeus is so lamely overcheesed that fighting him is like unto fighting a God that you cannot kill. Frankly, I'm sick and tired of that arrogant aristocratic ass being in charge. If he's ever disposed of, the Abyss should rule.


Well, that's what this fine group of individuals is trying to do! Don't just say "someone should do something about it!" Take a stand! Be a man! Et cetera and so forth!


For my money, Asmo is probably just stressed. He's been worshipped and feared by countless legions for millenia, and that puts a lot of pressure on a guy. If you give him a hug and a few kind words he'll probably chill out a bit.

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-02, 10:13 AM
I'm not saying it's impossible, but the number one priority for anyone looking to take on Asmodeus should be Mental Immunity. Dominate at will is no joke, and if he manages to make even 1 member of your proposed party turn on you(this includes followers, incidentally), you're screwed.

Bassetking
2007-07-02, 11:58 AM
Eh? All I heard of was the crusader who used a small shruiken, but that doesn't work, because you don't roll the dice. It's not a d1, it's 1.

In my original offering to the WotC Theoretical Optimization boards(Infinite Damage Melee Build or How I Learned To Stop Worrying, and Love the Shuriken), Armads, that was, in fact, the means I attempted to use. With the advent of Complete Champion, and, indeed, the Imbued Healing: Luck feat, the build becomes both RAW and RAI Airtight, with the use of a 1d2 weapon.

Ditto
2007-07-02, 12:39 PM
Or, you could just ask Invisible Christopher Walken (http://youtube.com/watch?v=vcU2-Fm8wVQ) to make him step down.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-07-02, 02:43 PM
Maybe you folks can find a way to defeat Asmodeus. I doubt a DM would let you get away with anything easy, as Asmodeus of all beings would see it coming, but maybe you can.

The real question is, can anyone defeat Invisible Christopher Walken?


Or, you could just ask Invisible Christopher Walken (http://youtube.com/watch?v=vcU2-Fm8wVQ) to make him step down.
Normally, I don't call people on posting something I already said. I just found it highly ironic/appropriate when associated with your user name.

Jayabalard
2007-07-02, 03:43 PM
I could produce a build that could, theoretically, deal enough damage to each of the Nine Hells, individually, to utterly, totally, completely destroy them...I've never seen a place that states the amount of hp that a plane has; if it is located somewhere, please point it out.

Any iterative infinite damage combo is going to deal a countably infinite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countable) amount of damage; if planes have 1 hp per arbitrary unit volume, then the plane has uncountably infinite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncountable) hp. An uncountably infinite set is larger than a countably infinite set, so it's not possible to destroy a plane with an iterative infinite damage ability.

bah, thought that one through too fast. Both are countably infinite.

Citizen Joe
2007-07-02, 03:47 PM
Not that deleting the OP would stop this discussion, but one of the rules stipulations was that the souls must flow. Meaning you can't stop evil souls from going to Hell. Destroying Hell would do that, thus not allowed by the ruleset.

13_CBS
2007-07-02, 05:18 PM
Not that deleting the OP would stop this discussion, but one of the rules stipulations was that the souls must flow. Meaning you can't stop evil souls from going to Hell. Destroying Hell would do that, thus not allowed by the ruleset.

MEh, don't bother. I've deleted the rules since they've become irrelevant. Let them continue with their discussion.

lukelightning
2007-07-02, 05:43 PM
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, I say.

Cruiser1
2007-07-02, 08:39 PM
Any iterative infinite damage combo is going to deal a countably infinite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countable) amount of damage; if planes have 1 hp per arbitrary unit volume, then the plane has uncountably infinite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncountable) hp. An uncountably infinite set is larger than a countably infinite set, so it's not possible to destroy a plane with an iterative infinite damage ability.
I'm no math major, but the above doesn't seem true. If you divide a Universe i.e. an infinite sized 3-dimensional area into cubes of finite size, there's a countable number of such cubes. From an arbtrary starting point, you can assign any cube in the universe an integer number, i.e. there's a 1:1 mapping between cubes or (x,y,z) integer coordinates and integers themselves. You can label or count each cube in an order that starts from the center and expands outward in layers like an onion. This is just a 3D version of how an infinite 2D grid of numbers (or the set of all fractions, which is described on the countable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countable) web link) is still countable, because you can sweep back and forth along a diagonal and grow outward.

Jayabalard
2007-07-02, 08:54 PM
yup, I realized that about 15 minutes after I posted, but I had already left work: both sets are countably infinite.

It still requires an assumption that you can assign a hp value to an arbitrary volume of extra-planar space and that amount of hp is finite (which is a stretch); also, depending on how your infinite damage loop works, it may take infinite time.

TheLogman
2007-07-02, 10:11 PM
Oh, I has an idea. Devil Blight. It's a spell from the Planar Handbook (3.5)

If our group is sorcerers, then they have 36 slots apiece that can cast the spell Devil Blight (4th level spell).
If we use Devil Blight on a Devil Lord, if it bypasses SR, it does 2d6 damage, and then, regardless of weather of not it bypasses SR, they have to make a save, if they fail the save, for 1d6 rounds, they take 2d6 damage each round. If they succeed on the save, they are confused for one round, and still take 2d6 for that round.
Our guys could cast Devil Dirge 36 times apiece, for 144 castings, doing at least 288 damage (Assuming all damage rolls are 1, the spell fails to bypass SR every time, and the Lord makes his save every time. Assuming he makes his save and it fails to bypass SR, but does average damage, the Devil Lord takes 864 damage.) We are assuming that the rolls on the confused turn (Every turn) are average, and that less than 10% of the time does the Devil Lord actually act normal. He could destroy us in that time, and that 864 is not good enough.
Let's assume that they all use all 6 of their level 9 slots to cast Wish, Wishing a level 20 Sorcerer was willing to help them, has full spell slots, and was next to them. We now have 24 level 20 sorcerers, plus our guys, for a total of 28 sorcerers, and a total of 120+864 equals 984 castings of Devil Blight. If each one fails to bypass SR, and the Lord makes his save, and each spell does 1968 damage. Assuming that each spell does normal damage, we are looking at 5904 damage, and an automatic confused effect every round, again, with average rolls, less than 10% of the time does the Lord act normally, and any time that the Devil Lord rolls attack closest creature he would attack a fellow Devil, or attack caster, he can't since the level 20 sorcerers are at least 75 feet away, and we are a few feet farther than that.

What do you guys think? And what if the Sorcerers roll 20's on their casting checks, and the Devil sometimes rolls 1's on his saves? We might have a chance, and without very much cheese!

Xuincherguixe
2007-07-03, 02:09 AM
... Isn't this what every devil is trying to do? The ones on top are really, really good at this stuff too.

Dervag
2007-07-03, 02:58 AM
I think I saw somewhere some guy researching epic spell that summons a solar, PERMANENT. So summon yourself a legion and send them and go make yourself a lunch or popcorn.Enlisting a legion of angels or twelve is probably the only way to pull this one off, because...


I think the plan would be something along the lines of making a deal with 5 of the archdevils to off the other four... then cutting a deal with 3 of the remaining to wipe out the other 2. Then 2 on 1 and half way through that battle you turn on all three and wipe them out when they are weak....the archdevils are smart enough to realize that you're playing them off against each other.



...



switch that to ASKING air elementals to help. Problem solved.Sounds good, but while air elementals are stupid, they're not stupid enough to go pick a fight with an entire plane full of devils.

Moreover, nailing the archdevils won't solve your problem unless you have a way of keeping their subordinates from stepping into the dead devils' shoes.


So is this simply not possible to pull off without slipping into cheese? Surely there's some way of taking out Baator without getting cheesy.[glances around furtively]

You didn't hear me say this, but...

Emperor Tippy is absolutely right. Taking out Baator is a job for the combined forces of at least one of the Upper Planes; remember that this is Hell we're talking about. It's simply not something that mortals should be able to do; it's a job for divine intervention.

And the fellow with the thirteen-letter name above has a really good point, perhaps the best of all. If you want to know how to conquer Hell, you ask Asmodeus; he's seen way more proposed 'conquer Hell' schemes than you could ever imagine, and outwitted or smashed all of them. If he weren't better at it than anyone else in the universe, including the infinite number of hostile entities in the Abyss, he wouldn't still be running the place.

Swooper
2007-07-03, 04:35 AM
God Asmodeus is dead.
Ahh. Denial. Is there anything it can't solve? :smallbiggrin:

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-03, 05:46 AM
I don't care who steps into their shoes. It's certainly gonna be a lot better than having that snooty bastard Assy in charge. I'm sick of hearing his name, and seeing him listed as "Boss of Hell", how he put down the rebellion, etc. It's time for a paradigm shift!

Khantalas
2007-07-03, 06:02 AM
You don't conquer Hell. It has more epic spellcasters then you can ever muster, even assuming you have an epic spellcaster for every 100.000 devil. Only demons can boast more epic spellcasters, and they are too disorganized to protect their plane against their other epic spellcasters and assault other planes.

That's why gods come and go, but Asmodeus is eternal. Though I sure wish Mephistopheles would steal his position. Boy, do I love that maniac better.

Callix
2007-07-03, 07:02 AM
Mephistopheles? I kicked his infernal butt from here to Calimshan in NWN. Eat Cloudkill/Horrid Wilting/Bigby's Clenched Fist/Isaac's Greater Missile Storm. Asmodeus.... at least had the intelligence to keep his head down.

Khantalas
2007-07-03, 07:05 AM
Oh, you haven't kicked Mephistopheles' butt. He's an all X-stats character, meaning he can do pretty much what the DM wants him to do. That, my friend, is only an aspect.

Either that, or Hordes of the Underdark has nothing to do with reality (the word reality is used only in its loosest meaning possible).

Callix
2007-07-03, 07:09 AM
It's an FR CRPG expansion. It's about as far from canon as you can get without moving into fanfic/homebrew. Still, it was supposed to be Overwhelming for an ECL 25 (It wasn't), so he's at least CR 30 on those stats.

Pestlepup
2007-07-03, 08:12 AM
Oh, I has an idea. Devil Blight. It's a spell from the Planar Handbook (3.5)

If our group is sorcerers, then they have 36 slots apiece that can cast the spell Devil Blight (4th level spell).
If we use Devil Blight on a Devil Lord, if it bypasses SR, it does 2d6 damage, and then, regardless of weather of not it bypasses SR, they have to make a save, if they fail the save, for 1d6 rounds, they take 2d6 damage each round. If they succeed on the save, they are confused for one round, and still take 2d6 for that round.
Our guys could cast Devil Dirge 36 times apiece, for 144 castings, doing at least 288 damage (Assuming all damage rolls are 1, the spell fails to bypass SR every time, and the Lord makes his save every time. Assuming he makes his save and it fails to bypass SR, but does average damage, the Devil Lord takes 864 damage.) We are assuming that the rolls on the confused turn (Every turn) are average, and that less than 10% of the time does the Devil Lord actually act normal. He could destroy us in that time, and that 864 is not good enough.
Let's assume that they all use all 6 of their level 9 slots to cast Wish, Wishing a level 20 Sorcerer was willing to help them, has full spell slots, and was next to them. We now have 24 level 20 sorcerers, plus our guys, for a total of 28 sorcerers, and a total of 120+864 equals 984 castings of Devil Blight. If each one fails to bypass SR, and the Lord makes his save, and each spell does 1968 damage. Assuming that each spell does normal damage, we are looking at 5904 damage, and an automatic confused effect every round, again, with average rolls, less than 10% of the time does the Lord act normally, and any time that the Devil Lord rolls attack closest creature he would attack a fellow Devil, or attack caster, he can't since the level 20 sorcerers are at least 75 feet away, and we are a few feet farther than that.

What do you guys think? And what if the Sorcerers roll 20's on their casting checks, and the Devil sometimes rolls 1's on his saves? We might have a chance, and without very much cheese!

Spell Compendium lists it as 3rd level spell, that does 2d6 damage without save, but still requires to penetrate spell resistance. Against Asmodeus' SR of 45, not much chance. Though my stats for him are from BoVD, so it might be outdated. Besides, even if the 2d6 points would get through, he still regenerates 15 hits per round. Against total of 507, that could take a while. And the SpC version stuns on a failed save, no confusion. Not a bad try, though. :smallsmile:

Dean Fellithor
2007-07-03, 08:28 AM
Supernatural's Demon Trap's: make the planets be in that order (without changing) around the Hell Planes.:amused:

CockroachTeaParty
2007-07-03, 11:50 AM
I would kick Asmodeus in the shins and call him a poop head. There. Hell conquered.

Citizen Joe
2007-07-03, 12:18 PM
I think the plan would be something along the lines of making a deal with 5 of the archdevils to off the other four... then cutting a deal with 3 of the remaining to wipe out the other 2. Then 2 on 1 and half way through that battle you turn on all three and wipe them out when they are weak.

...the archdevils are smart enough to realize that you're playing them off against each other.


Actually the archdevils are already doing this stuff and Asmodeus encourages it so none of them are strong enough to oppose him. So all it really takes is a diplomancer and some meddling to get the ball rolling. Once its down to three Archdevils, they'll be watching your group closely. So instead of taking THEM on inform them that you'll be taking over some other aligned plane, maybe Mechanus or even Heaven. At first they'll be like Pfft! they'll get offed and we can swoop in for their Hell territory. But after you conquer one of the planes of Heaven, you can offer it up to Asmodeus. Then the other two lesser Archdevils will see that you're horning in on their action and be forced to try taking another plane as well. While they are off doing that, you can take over their layers of Hell and catch their respawn when they get killed offplane and whack them when they are weak. That gives you eight layers of Hell under your control plus sacraficing one plane of Heaven. Now Asmodeus has to choose between keeping a bit of Heaven or staying pinned down in Hell. Once Asmodeus picks Heaven, spring a planar anchor trap on him and swoop in to take control of Hell.

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-03, 02:09 PM
Ooh, nice one! You wouldn't need a diplomancer, either; at ECL 25, you're a prize worth fighting over already.

Dairun Cates
2007-07-03, 03:01 PM
Honestly, knowing my players, they'd tried to do it with 3 eggs, a mop, a broken short sword, gravity, and a nat 20 on a bluff check.

Myself personally, I'd lose the eggs. Too much weight.

Renx
2007-07-03, 03:15 PM
Find the Beta-Elemental Plane of Holy Water, Gate in whatever amount you require.

Thoughtbot360
2007-07-04, 06:29 AM
I've never seen a place that states the amount of hp that a plane has; if it is located somewhere, please point it out.

Any iterative infinite damage combo is going to deal a countably infinite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countable) amount of damage; if planes have 1 hp per arbitrary unit volume, then the plane has uncountably infinite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncountable) hp. An uncountably infinite set is larger than a countably infinite set, so it's not possible to destroy a plane with an iterative infinite damage ability.

bah, thought that one through too fast. Both are countably infinite.

Out of curiosity, how do you cross out your words

...wait a second.


If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, I say.

Thats really tragic, because next week, another group of adventurers will vaporize the nine hells on an epic scale, and you will be the first to die. Why? Because the DM is vindictive. That and Bassetking's plan worked.

Haikiah
2007-07-04, 08:35 AM
I suggest we should open some sort of portal between the upper levels of hell, and the very deepest part of the sea.

Thus making hell soggy!

Renx
2007-07-04, 09:22 AM
I suggest we should open some sort of portal between the upper levels of hell, and the very deepest part of the sea.

Thus making hell soggy!

Not a good idea, the Hells are infinite, oceans aren't. An elemental plane of water (or something similar) is infinite, so just gate from there and put in a huge spell to turn all water that comes through the portal to holy water.

Citizen Joe
2007-07-04, 09:45 AM
I'll say it again. I'm not entirely sure that the inner planes are accessible from the outer planes.

Xuincherguixe
2007-07-04, 09:54 AM
... Does it work if you use enough funnel cakes to summon all them to another plane?

Fualkner Asiniti
2007-07-04, 10:48 AM
Hmm... interesting idea.

First, I would become a 10th level blackguard to get nice and cushy with the Lords. Take 15 levels in evil cleric to get even closer. Other PCs: One Leadership/Charasmatic Bard, A batman wizard, and a 25th level Cleric.

The Bard goes over to the Abyss and rounds up some demons. Batman Wizard disguises them as Devils. Repeat with Solars, ect. all while keeping the trust of the 9 lords and spreading evil for them. Me, the blackguard, is their right-hand man. Eventually, I go and sacrifice a whole town to attain lordship in Hell, and become second only to Asmodious. Then that nifty bard and wizard go to the other lords and get thier approval and armies. We're taking down Asmodious.

At this point, I've basically taken over 8/9th of Hell, and the Abyss, Celestia and That other Good plane. Now, with a massive invasion, we kill Asmodious, and I strike the final blow. I take his power, and then, being the new rightful Prince of Hell, we take down the Nine Lords with the resto of our forces. Note that the Bard, Cleric and Wizard are stealing power from fallen gods and other forces using dark rituals. Also note that the Solars, Demons, ect. are unaware that they are fighting alongside their enemies. They think that they are just disguised like they are! Then, once Hell has been taken, our 4-man group are the new rulers of Hell. We dismiss all of our loyal servants. They think that Hell has been forever defeated. Only once they leave can they realize that we are the new Lords.

Yeah, pretty simple plan.

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-04, 09:53 PM
If you're gonna be stealing power from Fallen Gods and such, might as well be an Ur-Priest rather than a Cleric.:smalltongue:

13_CBS
2007-07-04, 09:59 PM
Y'know, I think that becoming a full-fledged Archdevil ruling one of the 9 Hells requires just a tad bit more than just sacrificing a whole town...

Sure, you might become a favored minion or ally. But a ruler of an entire plane? And besides, by aquiring power in such a fashion the 8 other devils would surely become intensely suspicious of you and never trust you (or if they do, they'll betray you in a second).

Orzel
2007-07-04, 10:04 PM
Making a delicious pie. Feed it to the leaders of the nonevil planes. Hide the recipe in hell. Mindblank the location and the recipe out my brain. Wait.

Dervag
2007-07-04, 10:32 PM
Actually the archdevils are already doing this stuff and Asmodeus encourages it so none of them are strong enough to oppose him...Yes, but if Asmodeus sees an outside power playing the archdevils off against each other and taking over their power base, he's going to move. He's smart enough to recognize when someone else is trying to muscle in on his business.

Imagine the lords of Hell as being like Mafia dons. Sure, the dons oppose each other. But if an unknown outsider tries to move in, play them off against each other, and take over the entire combined power base of all the dons, they're not going to be stupid enough to play along.

Setra
2007-07-04, 10:34 PM
>_>
<_<
I'd hire one of the people around here.

Sage in the Playground
2007-07-04, 10:37 PM
Spine-ectomies.

Its worked before!

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-07-04, 10:59 PM
Kill Bel, then Dispater, then Mammon, then Beliel and Fierna, then Levistus, then Glasya, then Baalzebul, then Mephistopheles and then Asmodeus.

Really, you could make a campaign of it.

Haikiah
2007-07-04, 11:45 PM
My perfect solution!

10 Travel to Hell
20 Kill nearest enemy
30 GOTO 20

SurlySeraph
2007-07-05, 12:37 AM
I'll refer you to some of my contributions from the "Things I'm not allowed to do while gaming" thread.

4907. The Tarrasque's natural weapons count as epic weapons. This does not mean that I can lop off one of the Tarrasque's claws, nail it to a Quarterstaff, and say it's a +6 Shortspear.
4907a. Nor can I make shields or plate armor out of the Tarrasque's carapace that reflect spells and increase the wearers armor class by 30.
4907b. If the DM is feeling lenient, and allows me to amputate claws or carapace sections from the Tarrasque that I obtained in #4906 with a DC 100 Heal check, and craft +6 Tarrasque Claw Spears, +6 Tarrasque Carapace Full Plate, or +6 Tarrasque Carapace Tower Shields with DC 100 Craft checks, I will not then point out that the Tarrasque regenerates.
4907c. No. You can't make an infinite number of +6 spears, shields, and armors from the Tarrasque just because it immediately regenerates the body part you removed. I don't care what you need them for.
4907d. I will not equip the entire party with 6 Tarrasque Claw Spears, +6 Tarrasque Carapace Full Plate, and +6 Tarrasque Carapace Tower Shields. I will especially not equip my entire cohort with the above items. I will especially especially not equip an entire army with the above items.
4907e. Even if I have a really good reason, such as that I'm equipping an army of millions of people to storm the Abyss and obliterate evil once and for all. No.

Emperor Tippy
2007-07-05, 12:44 AM
Whats interesting is if you actually attacked hell then the lawful gods are obligated to help Asmodeus defend it, even the good ones.

The Pac Primeval says that Asmodes gets to be in charge of hell and all of that and you cant' tell me that a guy who managed to get the gods to agree that he gets all evil souls didn't get a defense clause in there.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-07-05, 12:50 AM
Whats interesting is if you actually attacked hell then the lawful gods are obligated to help Asmodeus defend it, even the good ones.

The Pac Primeval says that Asmodes gets to be in charge of hell and all of that and you cant' tell me that a guy who managed to get the gods to agree that he gets all evil souls didn't get a defense clause in there.

He did get a clause that they can't punish him for what he's doing, so yeah there has to be a defense clause in there...if the Pact Primeval isn't just a lie to lead ignorant mortals away from the true and horrifying origin of hell.


And like I said...devils are legally sanctioned to exist. So you know what really gets interesting?...If by some bizarre bizarre miracle (DM naivety) you manage to pull this off...you better be going after Mechanus next or the inevitables will build the perfect terminator to take you out for f***ing with the fabric of reality in a decidedly unhealthy way.

Personally I like the Dicefreaks verison of Baator. It's very interesting and in depth...not to mention indescribably epic. (Seriously...Asmodeus, in that setting, is the mere avatar of the incarnation of Lawful Evil...which is a serpent so big a material plane world could sit on one of it's scales.) And apparently Asmodeus is also a great dancer as well (Like a +89 bonus on perform dance) but every time I think of that I just get this picture of Asmodeus beating down an epic level party then taunting them with a tap dance to prove how unworried he was...then watching them kill themselves cause they'll never see a more beautiful dance in all of existance. (For some obscure reason I desperately hope that Demogorgon has max ranks in Proffession: Baker, just so he makes the ULTIMATE EVIL MUFFIN WHICH CAN SUNDER WORLDS WITH IT'S DELICIOUS POWER!...But I'm weird like that.)

EDIT: To all those who claim that Asmodeus is overcheesed and what not...look at it this way, he's the ultimate rules lawyer and manipulator. You think he doesn't know the fact he's a D&D archdevil and isn't abusing the rules to keep him alive? Oh...he knows..he knows..:smallwink:

Cybren
2007-07-05, 01:03 AM
I don't see how you can stop 4 level 25 wizards from doing anything they want.

Triggerhappy938
2007-07-05, 01:11 AM
I give the DM candy. Candy laced with drugs. Why? Any DM of right mind probably won't allow me to conquer hell.

Stormzen
2007-07-05, 01:21 AM
1.Go to elemental plane of water.
2.Open a portal to 1st layer of Hell.
3.Set a magic trap on the portal that casts Cone of Cold when anything moves near it, and resets automatically.

The continuous Cone of Cold will freeze the infinite amount of water, so Hell will literally freeze over. Repeat for each level of Hell. If the devils try to melt the infinite ice they will ultimately be squished and/or frozen. After a couple of years or so, all of the devils will have frozen to death and all that needs to be done is melt the ice.

Green Bean
2007-07-05, 01:34 AM
I don't see how you can stop 4 level 25 wizards from doing anything they want.

You can stop them with 4 level 26 wizards. :smallamused:

Laurellien
2007-07-05, 01:55 AM
That doesn't deal with Stygia though. That layer is made of ice.

Duke Malagigi
2007-07-05, 02:06 AM
Callos I happen to agree with you. I'm a fan of the Dicefreaks work The Gates of Hell and would love to see them release chapter one of The Horrors of the Abyss sometime before 2010. (They started the Abyssal project started in earnest in 2003 while the Dicefreaks were still finishing chapter one of tGoH).

That said I'd love to see the look on the Order of the Stick's, the Linear Guild's, Xykon's and Redcloak's and maybe Hinjo's faces after seeing some familiar faces among Hell's procession, including the Snarl. Also Elan notices, and tells every one else that the Snarl is the only monster or person they know that's crying and is in pain. This is happening while Asmodeus is pulling trapped souls out of the Snarl and distributing those souls among the Nine Hells. Of course this assumes that the Snarl doesn’t really destroy souls and that Asmodeus is smarter than the Northern, now dead Eastern, Southern and Western Pantheons.

Solo
2007-07-05, 03:36 AM
Step 1: Give them free cable tv and internet access...
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit!

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-05, 04:41 AM
I think I'll make a deal with Fierna and Glasya. They'll get to live. As my personal handmaidens.:smallamused: Now, I just need to get one of those clashing cubes of Archeron(?), and play RFED on all the remaining Archdevils.

Pestlepup
2007-07-05, 05:05 AM
Also note that the Solars, Demons, ect. are unaware that they are fighting alongside their enemies. They think that they are just disguised like they are!

A small problem, that Solars, Nalfeshnees, Mariliths, Balors, Glabrezus and Planetars have naturally active True Seeing. Those angels that don't, are bound to Detect Evil before agreeing to storm Hell(s). And those demons that don't, aren't going to do you much good besides getting stepped on. Besides that and the fact that saccing a town won't make you like unto a god, not a bad effort. :smallsmile:

Solo
2007-07-05, 06:01 AM
I think I'll make a deal with Fierna and Glasya. They'll get to live. As my personal handmaidens.:smallamused:
Pimpin':smallcool:

Stormzen
2007-07-05, 12:38 PM
For Cania replace "Plane of water" with "Plane of Fire" and remove Step 3 entirely. Opening a gate to Cania next to one of the oceans of lava will melt all the ice and hopefully kill the devils.


EDIT: Hmmm, I just looked in my DMG, and the ice layer is Cania.

Actana
2007-07-05, 02:12 PM
Why don't you just put a DMPC against Asmodeus? Problem solved.