Is the game nothing but Rules?

[Zellsantal]

I know some might question the title but I didn't know how else to put it. This post is mostly to let go of steam from my DM I had today. So forgive me for any hrush words I may use but right now it's how I feel and I would like to know if anyone else had about the same situation that I am about explaion.

First of all my DM wants everything by the book and such a rule freak that you have to roll for just about everything. For an example, me and my party have come to his little island looking for ruins, we had to roll a search (or spot, can't remember which) for every five feet to find anything or we may have got into quicksand. It was in such a way it seem like it was a fog of war the whole time. We found what we were looking for after about thirdy minutes of real time looking though the whole island and only got five hundred gold between me and two others. That alone felt like it wasn't worth it, we were thrid level at the time when we did that but still it felt like a wast of time.

When we and the party started this it was a 3.5 sand box base game and we would make our own story with our characters. The game it self was set to be a low magic game and where all spellcasters would be treated like a wizards, getting spells by learning from scolls, books and such. At first it seem like it would be interesting but as it went on it just gotten more frustrating and boring. My DM gave us the option to hire npcs to help us out, it felt more like we didn't have much of a choice. I played a rogue as my first character and then about four differnt times I played a battle cleric with ordained champion build. THe last fight with that build was going against an area fight against a full cleric useing two summons monsters, one first and one forth and spirtal weapon. The build I had ai took time to buff myself in hopes to hit and do damage but at the end my guy goes down. That alone made me feel like what was the point of making an interesting character if he's going to be beaten that easly. My Dm said that he only had 9 hit points left which only pist me off even more.

Today the group was doing a character reboot because how many of us complain about his spell rule. He took that rule away but then made making magical items to be a lot longer. So insteed of every one thousand gold a day it would be every five days. I was working on my character today looking online for some stuff because I wasn't sure on a few things which would give me a better idea of how I want to go. I was thinking in the lines of a fighter like build with horizon walker because I like the idea of having D.Door as a spell like ability, however I was trying to find a way in order to do my full attack after D.Door just like in Pathfinder.

So when I went to the game I try talking with him, at the same time we gotten a new guy as well. In that whole time my DM kept making the comment of I should have posted on Meet Up, a websit in which could find groups to play and messages, about my questions. On top of that while I was building my character which took me a while because I am slow and I tryed asking my DM about stuff to help me get done faster, he kept saying look it up.

Though the whole game we did today which is six hours was hiring a crew for my dad's ship (yes he is one of the party memebers) get food and other equipment, finding an island, fought a CR4 displacer beast (I think that was CR4) and taking thirdy one hour of real time to have all but one of our party memebers cross a ****ing river. I asked my DM what is the DC to jump over it, he said roll. I did and I end up jumping 10 feet into the river, I had full plate on but still I couldn't help but look at my DM like wtf. It was only when one of the party memebers looked it up while this was going on and told me it was a DC 30. So I then end up rolling as I am being carryed away by the river every five feet, my DM tells me to let him know when I roll a 20, on my thrid one I got a 20 and that's were we left off.

The new player wasn't happy, he plain out said "we six hours only did one small battle and a lot of time with a river, it's bull****." I couldn't agree more and though that time I been told three times by my DM that I need to read the books at lest an hour a day. Before you all give me a hard time because I wasn't ready and such understand this. I get maybe about an hour, maybe two if I am lucky of my own personal time after get my stuff done in the house and before I go to work. I like to injoy my free time, not work more and to me trying to do homework on dnd books is work for me. I have a job working from 2pm-10:30 pm and get to be about midnight, when I get up it is about 8am, between 8am and 1pm I end up cooking my meals by hand, do some cleaning, walking my two dogs for about thirdy minutes and who knows what else. My DM in the other hand have no kids, no wife, no job though getting some sort of military pay.

While he played other people's games he would end up looking up the monster to make sure it is being played right or so he saids and would keep asking the DC for things as well. He always said you can't me meta gaming, so how the hell is looking up the monster not meta gaming? After today's game me and my dad talked it over on the way home and we desided we would be leaving that game as well.

[Pugwampy]

After today's game me and my dad talked it over on the way home and we desided we would be leaving that game as well.

You did the right thing . That DM is a turd , you get those sometimes . The point of this game is to have fun . What i find most pathetic is he has no real life so he should have been the best friggin DM you ever had.

This game is a limitless well of creativity and the rules are there to help you have fun and help with balance but they are mere suggestions nothing more . They can be a DM,s shield against rules lawyers . If a DM thinks a rule gives too much admin or is less fun , he should toss it out the window.

I hope your next DND/PF game experience is better .

[EldritchWeaver]

My condolences about having found such a DM, leaving the game is likely the best choice you could have made there.


First of all my DM wants everything by the book and such a rule freak that you have to roll for just about everything. For an example, me and my party have come to his little island looking for ruins, we had to roll a search (or spot, can't remember which) for every five feet to find anything or we may have got into quicksand. It was in such a way it seem like it was a fog of war the whole time. We found what we were looking for after about thirdy minutes of real time looking though the whole island and only got five hundred gold between me and two others. That alone felt like it wasn't worth it, we were thrid level at the time when we did that but still it felt like a wast of time.

During my DMing, I learned that you should do that in bigger chunks so only a few rolls determine the entire outcome. Bogs things less down and is less swingy in results. Regarding the amount treasure: There might be a reason for that amount (maybe the ruins have been already stripped clean), but unless your characters are overall below WBL, I can't fault that in general. Still, if you suffer tedious work, it can feel frustrating to receive mediocre treasure.


When we and the party started this it was a 3.5 sand box base game and we would make our own story with our characters. The game it self was set to be a low magic game and where all spellcasters would be treated like a wizards, getting spells by learning from scolls, books and such. At first it seem like it would be interesting but as it went on it just gotten more frustrating and boring. My DM gave us the option to hire npcs to help us out, it felt more like we didn't have much of a choice. I played a rogue as my first character and then about four differnt times I played a battle cleric with ordained champion build. THe last fight with that build was going against an area fight against a full cleric useing two summons monsters, one first and one forth and spirtal weapon. The build I had ai took time to buff myself in hopes to hit and do damage but at the end my guy goes down. That alone made me feel like what was the point of making an interesting character if he's going to be beaten that easly. My Dm said that he only had 9 hit points left which only pist me off even more.

So there are no spontaneous spellcasters, as those need to learn from spellbooks? Or just limit access to spells (cleric needs spellbook)? The first basically invalidates the concept of casting class which has less planning overhead compared to wizards, but if you still have the same number of spell slots this could be used as a better wizard. The latter is just a nerf, which in my opinion makes things more tedious overall. Still, unless you have been stripped of access to spells completely, I would assume that the characters should still be able to hold their weight compared to a standard game. I can't say why your characters struggled so much, but I can think of these reasons (or a combination thereof):



The DM used routinely enemies which are too strong.
You failed to play the classes to their strength.
You failed to pick classes which are actually strong (not sure what a battle cleric is (no spells?), but a rogue is a crappy class).
You had a string of bad luck.


Three of them you can actually do anything about. Firstly invest some time to look for optimization advice and choose something which works for you. Secondly talk with your DM that you don't enjoy how things have gone and you prefer to play the game differently. Actually, the order depends on if you know where the problem(s) lie.


Today the group was doing a character reboot because how many of us complain about his spell rule. He took that rule away but then made making magical items to be a lot longer. So insteed of every one thousand gold a day it would be every five days. I was working on my character today looking online for some stuff because I wasn't sure on a few things which would give me a better idea of how I want to go. I was thinking in the lines of a fighter like build with horizon walker because I like the idea of having D.Door as a spell like ability, however I was trying to find a way in order to do my full attack after D.Door just like in Pathfinder.

Unless you plan to create your own items, this change doesn't impact you much. And even then, unless you have some time limit, you simply take more downtime.


So when I went to the game I try talking with him, at the same time we gotten a new guy as well. In that whole time my DM kept making the comment of I should have posted on Meet Up, a websit in which could find groups to play and messages, about my questions. On top of that while I was building my character which took me a while because I am slow and I tryed asking my DM about stuff to help me get done faster, he kept saying look it up.

What did your DM instead? Talk with the new guy? Then I can understand that he wants to focus his attention not on you. Otherwise he might have been a jerk to you.


Though the whole game we did today which is six hours was hiring a crew for my dad's ship (yes he is one of the party memebers) get food and other equipment, finding an island, fought a CR4 displacer beast (I think that was CR4) and taking thirdy one hour of real time to have all but one of our party memebers cross a ****ing river. I asked my DM what is the DC to jump over it, he said roll. I did and I end up jumping 10 feet into the river, I had full plate on but still I couldn't help but look at my DM like wtf. It was only when one of the party memebers looked it up while this was going on and told me it was a DC 30. So I then end up rolling as I am being carryed away by the river every five feet, my DM tells me to let him know when I roll a 20, on my thrid one I got a 20 and that's were we left off.

Hiring a crew can be fun and also take time (had that in one of my games), although it shouldn't happen every session. It might have been just an unlucky timing on the new guy's part. Finding an island can be as long or short as it needs to be, without further information, I can't tell if the time was spent well. Fights can take a some time, although I guess it was over in a half hour at most. The river part I do find fault in. Spending over 1 and 1/2 hours on this is ridiculous, as is not telling you that a character in armor isn't going to make that jump, so an alternative is needed (like removing the armor, getting it over the river via a rope, and crossing the river yourself).


The new player wasn't happy, he plain out said "we six hours only did one small battle and a lot of time with a river, it's bull****." I couldn't agree more and though that time I been told three times by my DM that I need to read the books at lest an hour a day. Before you all give me a hard time because I wasn't ready and such understand this. I get maybe about an hour, maybe two if I am lucky of my own personal time after get my stuff done in the house and before I go to work. I like to injoy my free time, not work more and to me trying to do homework on dnd books is work for me. I have a job working from 2pm-10:30 pm and get to be about midnight, when I get up it is about 8am, between 8am and 1pm I end up cooking my meals by hand, do some cleaning, walking my two dogs for about thirdy minutes and who knows what else. My DM in the other hand have no kids, no wife, no job though getting some sort of military pay.

While having rule knowledge is beneficial, plain out asking to spend that much on this is rude and totally inconsiderate of others people's lives.


While he played other people's games he would end up looking up the monster to make sure it is being played right or so he saids and would keep asking the DC for things as well. He always said you can't me meta gaming, so how the hell is looking up the monster not meta gaming? After today's game me and my dad talked it over on the way home and we desided we would be leaving that game as well.

If a player would request the monster's stat during the battle, I would refuse because this kind of control speaks of lack of trust and reeks of potential metagaming. If someone thinks I handle a rule incorrectly, he can say so and I try to solve this in a short time or say that I handle it like this and check afterwards, what the correct way to handle it would have been, and use it in later sessions. Overall, this guy doesn't sound as if I would want to play with him.

[Zellsantal]

You did the right thing . That DM is a turd , you get those sometimes . The point of this game is to have fun . What i find most pathetic is he has no real life so he should have been the best friggin DM you ever had.

This game is a limitless well of creativity and the rules are there to help you have fun and help with balance but they are mere suggestions nothing more . They can be a DM,s shield against rules lawyers . If a DM thinks a rule gives too much admin or is less fun , he should toss it out the window.

Exactly! Thank you for your kind words and understanding.

[Puke]

There is one solution : come to my games. Ahahah.

The point of the game is to have fun. If you do not have fun, quit.
There is another solution tho : gather all the players and discuss about it. Then, face your DM all together. If his ego is not too big, he may understand your criticism. If not, just quit.

As a DM, I drop most of the annoying rules, but some players want to play with. Some boring combat rules really piss me off like "I target his leg because i think the armor has less resistance here and I can break it with my spell that deals X dmg to the armor". Its like... yeah you can do that. But It is the first time you do it by 13 levels, and I'm not aware of the rules on this point. So I need to loose 5 minutes looking for the rules... the other players get bored etc... And ultimately, we end by : "Ok, you hit the leg, his armor is really strong, you fail to break it".
Is it fair ? No it is not. Does the player knows I tricked him ? He doesn't. Is the player unhappy ? Not at all, because the game keeps running smoothly.

We are here to have fun and your DM must understand that. YOU must understand that. ALL players must understand that. Sometimes, I DM a game where we do not roll any dice.
I just look my players sheets, I know they skills by heart, so I can say if they can do things or not.
Sometimes, I make em roll every single action just to annoy them. Like..."Ok, I walk here, and I want to go there... i can run to..." me : "Wait ! Roll your balance check, this is harsh terrain."
Him "Really ?" Me : "Sure." Him : "Done." Me: "You fell." Him "What the hell ?" Me "You fail. Does anyone catches you ? Roll balance, roll strengh, roll reflexes check".
Playing like that puts a lot of pressure on the PC. I mostly demand checks when ennemies are nearby. So the players are forced to think about where they are, and what they are doing before the fight begins. This way, they can't tell me "No I was doing blablabla on the back of blablabal".

Another thing : a DM is not a generic guy. Good games comes from a good relationship between the players and the DM. The DM IS a player too. He must have fun too.

[Amphetryon]

My Dm said that he only had 9 hit points left which only pist me off even more.
Why did it annoy you more to know you were close to winning? Would it have been better if you'd just been steamrolled?


n that whole time my DM kept making the comment of I should have posted on Meet Up, a websit in which could find groups to play and messages, about my questions.So, the DM has set up a method for OOC questions that would slow down play to be handled outside of game-time, which you apparently did not use. Had he communicated beforehand that this resource was available? If so, why did you choose to ignore it? Why is he at fault for pointing out that you had the means to solve this without taking up game time?


I asked my DM what is the DC to jump over it, he said roll. I did and I end up jumping 10 feet into the river, I had full plate on but still I couldn't help but look at my DM like wtf. It was only when one of the party memebers looked it up while this was going on and told me it was a DC 30. So I then end up rolling as I am being carryed away by the river every five feet, my DM tells me to let him know when I roll a 20, on my thrid one I got a 20 and that's were we left off.
So, you attempted to jump across a river, in full plate, at approximately level 4 (judging by the Displacer Beast), without magical aid, and failed. How is this the DM's fault? Would it have been preferable for the DM to simply tell you that you weren't allowed to try? Judging by the title of the thread, had the DM just told you the DC, he would have been reinforcing your 'the game is nothing but rules' complaint, so that seems a poor solution.

[Sliver]

I'm not sure how the title relates to your complaints. A lot of the things that you brought up have little to do with rules posing a problem.

Yes, the DM was generally bad, but parts of what you say may indicate that he was somewhat stressed or tired. If you are constantly asking him rule questions that could have been easily answered if you tried to do the research on your own, perhaps the DM was growing tired of that?

The jump DC shouldn't have been a secret, and when you are asking about it, asking you to roll for Jump isn't really appropriate. "How hard is it?" "Try it and find out." Yeah, no... But I wouldn't be rolling jump if I knew my own modifier is rather low, even if the DM just told me to do it. He doesn't control my character...

[Zellsantal]

During my DMing, I learned that you should do that in bigger chunks so only a few rolls determine the entire outcome. Bogs things less down and is less swingy in results. Regarding the amount treasure: There might be a reason for that amount (maybe the ruins have been already stripped clean), but unless your characters are overall below WBL, I can't fault that in general. Still, if you suffer tedious work, it can feel frustrating to receive mediocre treasure. .

I understand, however when I think ruins I was thinking it be like an underground temple or something like that. What he had for ruins was some small tore down building.




So there are no spontaneous spellcasters, as those need to learn from spellbooks? Or just limit access to spells (cleric needs spellbook)? The first basically invalidates the concept of casting class which has less planning overhead compared to wizards, but if you still have the same number of spell slots this could be used as a better wizard. The latter is just a nerf, which in my opinion makes things more tedious overall. Still, unless you have been stripped of access to spells completely, I would assume that the characters should still be able to hold their weight compared to a standard game. I can't say why your characters struggled so much, but I can think of these reasons (or a combination thereof):



The DM used routinely enemies which are too strong.
You failed to play the classes to their strength.
You failed to pick classes which are actually strong (not sure what a battle cleric is (no spells?), but a rogue is a crappy class).
You had a string of bad luck.


Three of them you can actually do anything about. Firstly invest some time to look for optimization advice and choose something which works for you. Secondly talk with your DM that you don't enjoy how things have gone and you prefer to play the game differently. Actually, the order depends on if you know where the problem(s) lie.


Basically limit access to spells, he didn't want some one like a cleric have all their spell list to play with. I played a cleric that was more focused using buff for his melee combat so not having the right spells did hurt me some but still I played it this way the best I could. Because not many want to play a healer I played it this way in order be both the healer and a fighter. True that the paladin might have been better choice but that doesn't get as many spells as a cleric would have. Playing it wrong, maybe I was but at the same time I went with I thought would work and did my best to play my role.




What did your DM instead? Talk with the new guy? Then I can understand that he wants to focus his attention not on you. Otherwise he might have been a jerk to you.

He was trying to run his game, I understand that but being with his rules I had to make sure I was fallowing them right or else I would wasted my time and have to do more changed on my character.



Hiring a crew can be fun and also take time (had that in one of my games), although it shouldn't happen every session. It might have been just an unlucky timing on the new guy's part. Finding an island can be as long or short as it needs to be, without further information, I can't tell if the time was spent well. Fights can take a some time, although I guess it was over in a half hour at most. The river part I do find fault in. Spending over 1 and 1/2 hours on this is ridiculous, as is not telling you that a character in armor isn't going to make that jump, so an alternative is needed (like removing the armor, getting it over the river via a rope, and crossing the river yourself).

The crew part can be fun, but because we had to look it up rather then having my DM giving us a price for everything which would have made things easier and less time consuming. Other then the river part I agree that looking around and fighting other stuff does take time. Though fighting only one monster against four level sevens does get boring if you know what I mean?



While having rule knowledge is beneficial, plain out asking to spend that much on this is rude and totally inconsiderate of others people's lives.

I couldn't agree more, again it's not I don't take time to look up stuff but I am not going to go though the whole book and on top even if I do I won't remember every damn thing.



If a player would request the monster's stat during the battle, I would refuse because this kind of control speaks of lack of trust and reeks of potential metagaming. If someone thinks I handle a rule incorrectly, he can say so and I try to solve this in a short time or say that I handle it like this and check afterwards, what the correct way to handle it would have been, and use it in later sessions. Overall, this guy doesn't sound as if I would want to play with him.

Again I agree with you and it is why I won't be in his games any more.

[Darrin]

So, you attempted to jump across a river, in full plate, at approximately level 4 (judging by the Displacer Beast), without magical aid, and failed. How is this the DM's fault?

It's the DM's fault for demanding a roll before explaining the situation or letting the character take what could be an action with fatal consequences without explaining the implications of the Jump check. It's a d-bag move that is likely to kill PCs and antagonize the players.

As a DM, it's my job to give the players interesting options and force them to make tough but informed decisions. Making them pick "which option is not a secret death trap" is not a game worth playing.

[Amphetryon]

It's the DM's fault for demanding a roll before explaining the situation or letting the character take what could be an action with fatal consequences without explaining the implications of the Jump check. It's a d-bag move that is likely to kill PCs and antagonize the players.

As a DM, it's my job to give the players interesting options and force them to make tough but informed decisions. Making them pick "which option is not a secret death trap" is not a game worth playing.

I do not personally perceive 'decide whether jumping across a river in full-plate is a good idea' to be a 'secret death trap,' as there appears to be very little 'secret' there.

[Zellsantal]

Why did it annoy you more to know you were close to winning? Would it have been better if you'd just been steamrolled?

The build I made was able for me to hit and do more damage then what a normal cleric would have, then end up getting out done by a normal cleric at the same level as me. Wouldn't you be pist?



So, the DM has set up a method for OOC questions that would slow down play to be handled outside of game-time, which you apparently did not use. Had he communicated beforehand that this resource was available? If so, why did you choose to ignore it? Why is he at fault for pointing out that you had the means to solve this without taking up game time?


I will say I forgot to put this down, I rather talk to people face to face. True I could have posted on his websit, however he could have easily just as posted once a week. I also do better and get more done when I have some one right there that could help me out.


So, you attempted to jump across a river, in full plate, at approximately level 4 (judging by the Displacer Beast), without magical aid, and failed. How is this the DM's fault? Would it have been preferable for the DM to simply tell you that you weren't allowed to try? Judging by the title of the thread, had the DM just told you the DC, he would have been reinforcing your 'the game is nothing but rules' complaint, so that seems a poor solution.

First of all just so you understand we face the Displacer beast before the river. Second, when some one ask you for a DC would you not give it? I could understand not giving it on a monster or something like that. But for just a river I would have expected my DM to tell me the DC or give me an idea of what DC I need to roll for before I even atemp to jump it. Instead he have me roll anyways before I agree to do the jump or not, that part and not telling me the DC was his fault. At lest that's what it feels to me.

[Zellsantal]

I'm not sure how the title relates to your complaints. A lot of the things that you brought up have little to do with rules posing a problem.

Yes, the DM was generally bad, but parts of what you say may indicate that he was somewhat stressed or tired. If you are constantly asking him rule questions that could have been easily answered if you tried to do the research on your own, perhaps the DM was growing tired of that?

The jump DC shouldn't have been a secret, and when you are asking about it, asking you to roll for Jump isn't really appropriate. "How hard is it?" "Try it and find out." Yeah, no... But I wouldn't be rolling jump if I knew my own modifier is rather low, even if the DM just told me to do it. He doesn't control my character...

As I stated before I wasn't sure how else to give this a title other then the fact how my DM always keep saying the rule for this or the rule for that. I done some research however to know if it would work with his rules I had to keep asking him questions. Yes it might be a pain but I rather make sure I am doing things right rather then go with something and then learn the hard way I couldn't do it, if that make sense?

[ComaVision]

Second, when some one ask you for a DC would you not give it? I could understand not giving it on a monster or something like that. But for just a river I would have expected my DM to tell me the DC or give me an idea of what DC I need to roll for before I even atemp to jump it. Instead he have me roll anyways before I agree to do the jump or not, that part and not telling me the DC was his fault. At lest that's what it feels to me.

I wouldn't, no. When a player asks me the DC, I usually respond by telling them the task is pretty easy (or difficult or whatever the case may be).

Also, I've had a player rolling up a new character and asking me questions when I'm trying to DM. It's super irritating and basically stops the game.

It sounds like your (former) DM is super anal and not very good but it also seems like the complexity of D&D 3.5 and PF is a bit much for you and you may have a more enjoyable experience in a less rules-heavy system.

[Amphetryon]

The build I made was able for me to hit and do more damage then what a normal cleric would have, then end up getting out done by a normal cleric at the same level as me. Wouldn't you be pist?No, I wouldn't be annoyed without more information on how each of you rolled, and what other factors were at play. A Cleric of the same level as you is supposed to be an even CR fight (reducing party resources by roughly 20%) for you PLUS 3 comrades, all else being equal and before any good or bad luck with dice is factored in. In a one-on-one fight, that means you'd have MAYBE slightly better than 50/50 odds, before other factors like Initiative, combat smarts and style, and luck came up.


I will say I forgot to put this down, I rather talk to people face to face. True I could have posted on his websit, however he could have easily just as posted once a week. I also do better and get more done when I have some one right there that could help me out.
So, you're annoyed that his preferred method of communicating rules and Character-building information is not the same as yours?


First of all just so you understand we face the Displacer beast before the river. Second, when some one ask you for a DC would you not give it? I could understand not giving it on a monster or something like that. But for just a river I would have expected my DM to tell me the DC or give me an idea of what DC I need to roll for before I even atemp to jump it. Instead he have me roll anyways before I agree to do the jump or not, that part and not telling me the DC was his fault. At lest that's what it feels to me.
Nope, I wouldn't, and am not used to DMs that would give that sort of information so transparently before the task is attempted. I would happily tell the Player approximately how far across the river appeared, and whether the footing seemed unstable enough to increase the difficulty, if asked. I wouldn't give DCs any more than I would announce what an enemy's AC and HP total were at the start of a combat. . . and a Player that wanted me to give that information beforehand would quickly try my patience, regardless if whether I sat behind the DM screen or across from the DM as another Player.

[Sliver]

Before you say that you wouldn't tell the DC for the jump check, let's get a few things clear.

The DC for Jump is based on distance, and the actual value is given within the player handbook. Even if you don't want to give the actual DC, you should at least tell the player the distance he needs to cross, or at least an estimate. That will allow the player to figure out the DC.

If the events happened how the OP described them


I asked my DM what is the DC to jump over it, he said roll.

Then there is no excusing the DM's handling of the situation. The player didn't declare he wants to jump, he merely wanted to know how hard the task would be. It was the DM that pushed for a roll without bothering to clarify the situation.

[Zanos]

First of all my DM wants everything by the book and such a rule freak that you have to roll for just about everything. For an example, me and my party have come to his little island looking for ruins, we had to roll a search (or spot, can't remember which) for every five feet to find anything or we may have got into quicksand. It was in such a way it seem like it was a fog of war the whole time. We found what we were looking for after about thirdy minutes of real time looking though the whole island and only got five hundred gold between me and two others. That alone felt like it wasn't worth it, we were thrid level at the time when we did that but still it felt like a wast of time.

3.5 is, as far as tabletop games go, fairly rules heavy. This is both a strength and a weakness. You can figure out how to do pretty much anything, but you also can't do anything that there isn't rules for, technically. Good DMs will typically homebrew something on the fly, but this forum generally talks about what's actually in the books, since it's a common point that can be discussed. I will say that rolling a search check for every 5ft square is technically RAW, but is exceptionally annoying. I would ask for everyone's take 10 or 20(if spending extra time) search result, and then declare what they found based on that. That is also RAW.



When we and the party started this it was a 3.5 sand box base game and we would make our own story with our characters. The game it self was set to be a low magic game and where all spellcasters would be treated like a wizards, getting spells by learning from scolls, books and such. At first it seem like it would be interesting but as it went on it just gotten more frustrating and boring. My DM gave us the option to hire npcs to help us out, it felt more like we didn't have much of a choice. I played a rogue as my first character and then about four differnt times I played a battle cleric with ordained champion build. THe last fight with that build was going against an area fight against a full cleric useing two summons monsters, one first and one forth and spirtal weapon. The build I had ai took time to buff myself in hopes to hit and do damage but at the end my guy goes down. That alone made me feel like what was the point of making an interesting character if he's going to be beaten that easly. My Dm said that he only had 9 hit points left which only pist me off even more.

Spellcasters of every type are extremely strong in 3.5. Making everyone have to find sources to learn spells and limiting said sources is actually a somewhat fair nerf to their power. This is especially true for most divine casters in low magic settings, because they normally know all their spells automatically, making them significantly more powerful than wizards in such an environment. A wizard with only his level up spells is not particularly versatile, but should be able to keep up with a party of other characters assuming decent spell selection. As for losing to another clerics, what do you think the reason for it was? Either the other cleric had a more potent setup than yourself, was played more strategically, or the dice did not favor you. None of those situations are the fault of the DM. Unless the DM gave him extra gear or other advantages, losing isn't really something to complain about.



Today the group was doing a character reboot because how many of us complain about his spell rule. He took that rule away but then made making magical items to be a lot longer. So insteed of every one thousand gold a day it would be every five days. I was working on my character today looking online for some stuff because I wasn't sure on a few things which would give me a better idea of how I want to go. I was thinking in the lines of a fighter like build with horizon walker because I like the idea of having D.Door as a spell like ability, however I was trying to find a way in order to do my full attack after D.Door just like in Pathfinder.

Making items take 5 times longer to craft is kind of stupid. I find that players usually either have a ton of time or none at all, with very little in between.



So when I went to the game I try talking with him, at the same time we gotten a new guy as well. In that whole time my DM kept making the comment of I should have posted on Meet Up, a websit in which could find groups to play and messages, about my questions. On top of that while I was building my character which took me a while because I am slow and I tryed asking my DM about stuff to help me get done faster, he kept saying look it up.

While kind of rude, it's not really unusual for a DM to expect you to build a character without his help. He presumably has other things to do, and all the information is available assuming you have the books.



Though the whole game we did today which is six hours was hiring a crew for my dad's ship (yes he is one of the party memebers) get food and other equipment, finding an island, fought a CR4 displacer beast (I think that was CR4) and taking thirdy one hour of real time to have all but one of our party memebers cross a ****ing river. I asked my DM what is the DC to jump over it, he said roll. I did and I end up jumping 10 feet into the river, I had full plate on but still I couldn't help but look at my DM like wtf. It was only when one of the party memebers looked it up while this was going on and told me it was a DC 30. So I then end up rolling as I am being carryed away by the river every five feet, my DM tells me to let him know when I roll a 20, on my thrid one I got a 20 and that's were we left off.

Plate armor applies a -6 penalty to jump checks, and a -12 penalty to swim checks. Your DM probably should have told you the DC before you rolled because you should have an idea of how far you can jump, but in general you probably weren't going to make it.



The new player wasn't happy, he plain out said "we six hours only did one small battle and a lot of time with a river, it's bull****." I couldn't agree more and though that time I been told three times by my DM that I need to read the books at lest an hour a day. Before you all give me a hard time because I wasn't ready and such understand this. I get maybe about an hour, maybe two if I am lucky of my own personal time after get my stuff done in the house and before I go to work. I like to injoy my free time, not work more and to me trying to do homework on dnd books is work for me. I have a job working from 2pm-10:30 pm and get to be about midnight, when I get up it is about 8am, between 8am and 1pm I end up cooking my meals by hand, do some cleaning, walking my two dogs for about thirdy minutes and who knows what else. My DM in the other hand have no kids, no wife, no job though getting some sort of military pay.

Understanding the rules of the game is an important part of playing it. Depending on the type of game I'm running I don't mind teaching new players rules of the game, but I also expect them to put some effort in to understanding the rules. It also sounds like you are part of what is slowing the game down. When everyone in the game knows the rules, it typically runs very quickly, since nothing has to be looked up. Also while I understand that you are busy, you probably shouldn't act like your time is more important than the DMs. Kids, pets, or a significant other are the results of life choices that people make voluntarily, and choosing those things does not make your time more valuable than anyone else's. I have coworkers with children, and it's extremely irritating when they act like their time is more important than mine because of it.



While he played other people's games he would end up looking up the monster to make sure it is being played right or so he saids and would keep asking the DC for things as well. He always said you can't me meta gaming, so how the hell is looking up the monster not meta gaming? After today's game me and my dad talked it over on the way home and we desided we would be leaving that game as well.
Looking up monsters if you didn't make the knowledge DC is metagaming, and the DM of that game should shut him down if he does that.

[Beheld]

Before you say that you wouldn't tell the DC for the jump check, let's get a few things clear.

The DC for Jump is based on distance, and the actual value is given within the player handbook. Even if you don't want to give the actual DC, you should at least tell the player the distance he needs to cross, or at least an estimate. That will allow the player to figure out the DC..

Thanks for posting this, this was going to be my point. The DC of every possibly distance and height of jump check is readily available to PCs in the PHB, you can either tell them what they are supposed to know because their characters know it (how far it is, how far they can usually jump on average), or you can slow the game to a crawl while they look it up, or you can demand that players make decisions that make no sense in character because you refuse to let them know the things their character would know.

Those are your options.

[Madwand99]

First: Your DM is awful. Leaving the game is the right choice.

Second: Yes, both D&D 3.x and Pathfinder are rules-heavy games with a lot of books. What this means is that if you want to create a powerful character, you need to put the research in. Forums like this help a lot if you are looking for advice, but it takes real effort to create a well-optimized PC. If that isn't something that interests you, you might want to consider a different RPG. There are a lot of good rules-lite games, for any genre you want.

Third: Your DM might have been awful, but some of the responsibility for a bad experience is also yours. There are things any player can do to make for a smoother gaming experience for everyone. For example, it's fairly easy to read up on the rules for Jump in the middle of a game. Your GM probably didn't even have them memorized, and might even have appreciated it if you looked up the rules for him. Then you could have asked "How wide is this river?", and from that, you can tell the DC. Most rivers, you won't have any chance of jumping over, even if you aren't wearing platemail.

[Zellsantal]

For the fight with the clerics it is this:

Me: A drawf with 4 levels of Cleric and 2 levels of of Ordained Champion sword and board, useing the smite ability and knowledge devotion feat.
DM's: 6 level Cleric (other then that I don't know the stats or anything else.)
One on one fight.
Start of the fight I cast shield of fath, his was summon 1. On the next turn I was end up fighting the summon monster and on his next turn he summon spirt weapon. After I killed the monster on the thrid or forth round I start moing towards him. Next turn I summon spirt weapon as well and he summon's a summon monster 4 monster. So by the time I got to him I was down about half my hp and I start hiting with everything I had. My spirt weapon couldn't his AC for it seems I needed a damn 18 just to hit him whil my AC was 19. I did a lot of damage though I can't remember how much, I may have done over 50 damage but I'm not sure. After a short time I went down, not killed because it was an arena match.

I wasn't pist at the DM because I lost, I mean we all can win them wich i understand. However what get to me is the fact I did put time and effert into that character but only to be taken down my a normal one. It made me feel like that making an interesting character is pointless and I should have just gone with a per caster that stay behind lines. Yes it might be true that I could have done other things that could have helped me out but at the same time I went with what I could think of at that time with what I have.

It's not I don't look what so ever, I was planing on making a human fighter before going in but after seening our new guy came with a human fighter I wanted to try something more interesting and the thing is I didn't know what the new guy was play until he showed up. I ended up making a bugbear with a level of barbaren with lion totem, one level of fighter and one level of ranger with arcane hunter. I was planing to go horizon walker when I can because the stuff in that looked interesting. I never played this way before so being new to it I couldn't think of everything and looking though books or rather pdfs on my Ipad took me a lot of time.

All the games I have played have been more or less casual and roll with it without worrying about all the rules. I am not agains't rules please don't get me worng, however when it get so hardcore to the point that your just rolling to diside if you want to go to bed or take a walk it becomes really boring and a chore rather then being fun. At lest that's how I feel. True some the fault is mine, I am no sant what so ever but nor was he.

The jump part of this, the river was about 25 feet wide I think. Yes I was thinking of jumping it because I didn't think the DC was that high and I did say I was thinking of it. I asked for the DC and all my DM did was move my guy to the edge of the river and tell me to roll. Before this another play ask how deep it was and all he told him is "you don't know", at the end of it all but one of the party faild and washed up on the other side rather then crossing it. The one didn't cross but rather just head back to the ship.

IN any case I am not going to worry about it anymore, what it comes down to is he was wanting it to be too hardcore and I guess I can't handle it and I will leave it to that.

[EldritchWeaver]

For the fight with the clerics it is this:

Me: A drawf with 4 levels of Cleric and 2 levels of of Ordained Champion sword and board, useing the smite ability and knowledge devotion feat.
DM's: 6 level Cleric (other then that I don't know the stats or anything else.)
One on one fight.
Start of the fight I cast shield of fath, his was summon 1. On the next turn I was end up fighting the summon monster and on his next turn he summon spirt weapon. After I killed the monster on the thrid or forth round I start moing towards him. Next turn I summon spirt weapon as well and he summon's a summon monster 4 monster. So by the time I got to him I was down about half my hp and I start hiting with everything I had. My spirt weapon couldn't his AC for it seems I needed a damn 18 just to hit him whil my AC was 19. I did a lot of damage though I can't remember how much, I may have done over 50 damage but I'm not sure. After a short time I went down, not killed because it was an arena match.

Was it not possible to cast summon monster earlier? Or to heal yourself during the battle? It seems that the problem that basically three enemies hit you, while you kept hacking at the summon and not at the cleric. So you lost hp, whereas the cleric didn't. The fact that you still whittled him down to 8 hp says that your character was actually well defense-wise.

[legomaster00156]

I want to answer the question in the title directly: yes. The game is nothing but rules, with some optional fluff attached. What you do with those rules is what makes the game a game.

[Zanos]

For the fight with the clerics it is this:

Me: A drawf with 4 levels of Cleric and 2 levels of of Ordained Champion sword and board, useing the smite ability and knowledge devotion feat.
DM's: 6 level Cleric (other then that I don't know the stats or anything else.)
One on one fight.
Start of the fight I cast shield of fath, his was summon 1. On the next turn I was end up fighting the summon monster and on his next turn he summon spirt weapon. After I killed the monster on the thrid or forth round I start moing towards him. Next turn I summon spirt weapon as well and he summon's a summon monster 4 monster. So by the time I got to him I was down about half my hp and I start hiting with everything I had. My spirt weapon couldn't his AC for it seems I needed a damn 18 just to hit him whil my AC was 19. I did a lot of damage though I can't remember how much, I may have done over 50 damage but I'm not sure. After a short time I went down, not killed because it was an arena match.

This honestly sounds like your DM himself has poor knowledge of the rules. First of all, Summon Monster spells all have a 1 round cast time. This means that the spell does not finish until the start of the casters next turn. In that time, any damage taken forces a concentration check, or you lose the spell. The tankiest creature on the Summon Monster I list is probably the celestial badger, which has AC 15 and 6 HP. Either your DM used something totally off the wall crazy for his SM I summon, your character is terrible at melee combat, or you need to destroy your dice. There's no way a level 6 melee focused cleric should take 4 rounds to down anything off the summon monster list. Summon Monster IV should not be castable by a 6th level cleric, because a cleric needs to be 7th level to cast 4th level spells. Either your mistook it for a lower version of the same spell, or the DM screwed up. As for his AC, I dunno what your to hit bonus is like, but a 6th level cleric with some decent magic items and buff spells can have solid AC. Off the top of my head, full plate and 12 dex will give you 19, a heavy shield will add +2 to that for 21, and Shield of Faith will add +3 deflection at 6th level. Thats 24 AC, and if you swapped the heavy shield for a tower shield you could get 26, although that gives a -2 attack penalty. That's not including any magic items.


For the fight with the clerics it is this:
I wasn't pist at the DM because I lost, I mean we all can win them wich i understand. However what get to me is the fact I did put time and effert into that character but only to be taken down my a normal one. It made me feel like that making an interesting character is pointless and I should have just gone with a per caster that stay behind lines. Yes it might be true that I could have done other things that could have helped me out but at the same time I went with what I could think of at that time with what I have.

A melee cleric is not a niche build. If anything, buffing yourself and then cracking skulls is one of the more effective ways to play the class. They have 3/4 BAB and heavy armor/shields for a reason, and most of their buff spells add to attack/damage/AC. Sounds like you lost because you hadn't played the character much and didn't understand how to make them effective, and because your DM also doesn't know some of the rules and basically cheated.


For the fight with the clerics it is this:
All the games I have played have been more or less casual and roll with it without worrying about all the rules. I am not agains't rules please don't get me worng, however when it get so hardcore to the point that your just rolling to diside if you want to go to bed or take a walk it becomes really boring and a chore rather then being fun. At lest that's how I feel. True some the fault is mine, I am no sant what so ever but nor was he.

While I don't think your DM is the unrepentant sinner damned to hell that the rest of the thread seems to agree he is, you are right that he isn't a saint. Based on your view, he made some serious mistakes and was pretty unfair with forcing you to roll without knowing the DC. That DM doesn't sound very good, but he's certainly fair from the worst I've played with, not even in the bottom 10. Worse than average, though. I'd stomach it if I had some other investment in the group and/or I thought I could reason with him.

If you've never played 3.5 before, I'd try to find another DM before quitting altogether. The experience varies very widely. I have had DMs that literally took control of my characters actions and tied the party to the railroad tracks, and ones that let me do literally whatever I wanted, and just had the world react appropriately.

[PaucaTerrorem]

It really sounds like you weren't asking the right questions and the DM was being an a**hat about it. Learn how to use the PHB/SRD to find out the hard set rules. Best advice I can give.

[KillianHawkeye]

Plate armor applies a -6 penalty to jump checks, and a -12 penalty to swim checks. Your DM probably should have told you the DC before you rolled because you should have an idea of how far you can jump, but in general you probably weren't going to make it.

He would also have an additional -6 penalty from his lack of speed, being a dwarf with a 20-foot speed (unless he has a magic item that increases his movement, but given everything else he said I find that highly doubtful).

With a -12 penalty to Jump checks, this character shouldn't even try jumping over log on the road, much less a river, unless he's incredibly strong and put all of his (cross-class) skill points into Jumping. At level 6, it's practically impossible for the character to have a positive modifier to Jump without something like a haste or expeditious retreat spell. This is all information that should have already been written on the character sheet, so there's not much excuse for this character to think they can jump over a coursing river. Of course, the DM also should have just pointed out the folly of such an action immediately rather than do what he did....

[Sir Daniel]

The idea if metagaming is kinda dumb. All the rules represent something in real life, and your character would know them.

[Zanos]

The idea if metagaming is kinda dumb. All the rules represent something in real life, and your character would know them.
No. Just because I remember the stats for all the core monsters does not mean that my barbarian 8 int knows that a young adult gold dragon can cast spells as a 7th level sorcerer. Your character should obviously know that he can't jump 25ft in plate armor, but you have no license to know things in character that your character does not know. Knowing a jump DC isn't metagaming, but pulling open the MM so you know what you're fighting without skill ranks invested absolutely is.