Ability drain on a low level character

[Manyasone]

So, last session my character (psion - shaper) got 6 intelligence and charisma drain. Party is lvl 3 with as much players. This psion is an important part of the party, but there is probably not a chance for a restoration in the area we are. I'm pretty boned, the way I see it. Any ideas on your part, wonderful community?

[AlanBruce]

So, last session my character (psion - shaper) got 6 intelligence and charisma drain. Party is lvl 3 with as much players. This psion is an important part of the party, but there is probably not a chance for a restoration in the area we are. I'm pretty boned, the way I see it. Any ideas on your part, wonderful community?

That is a nasty situation indeed, especially at level 3, when restorative magic isn't available, unless you happen to be near a temple and have the gold to spare.

But as you stated, you are pretty screwed. Care to elaborate how did your psion get drained of both intelligence and charisma... and ins uch big numbers?

An undead? there are a few that target those stats.

Was it a spell? Some power used on you?

Maybe a trap?

Or some environmental hazard?

If you can let us know how it came to be, perhaps we can come up with a solution.

Still... such massive stat drain at 3rd level... harsh.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Your best bet would probably be to find a level 5 Healer (they get Restoration at 3rd level), but that relies on DM fiat just as much as looking for a level 7 cleric, it's just cheaper.
There are a (very) few items that can cure ability drain, but they're far out of your WBL and also rely on DM fiat to find.
Artificers can make a potion or scroll of Restoration at level 3 (from the Healer list), but you also have to find one first unless one of you plays one - DM fiat.

Yeah, you're boned.

I'd suggest talking to your DM about it OOC, because at your level there is no way to reliably cure ability drain. Unless someone decides to play a Healer or Artificer there's nothing that can do it before level 7, so inflicting it on a level 3 party is pretty harsh.

[Inevitability]

Pazuzu Pazuzu Pazuzu, then wish for a cure. :smalltongue:

Are you a kobold, by any chance?

[Sliver]

I would talk to the DM. Crippling your character when you have no way to handle it is a bit of a jerk move... Maybe he plans on having an NPC heal you in exchange for roping you into a quest?

[Manyasone]

As requested I shall now state how this came to be. First a magnetic trap that did not target me but my meat shields (other party members -Warblade and spirit shaman) Second part of the trap locked doors and opened others, releasing two vargouilles. Third part involved abysmally low rolls... The rest you can guess... As a veteran I knew my character was toast, but I try to keep metaing to a minimum. Most of the time I use logic exercises with my DM in character (I tend to make smart chars) to draw conclusions (he hates me for solving riddles and such) afterwards we had a talk about it, and the main 'problem' is I've been playing this game for 18 years and the others for only a generous few. I know how the create powerful characters but I try to keep it under control as to not outperform the others

[Spore]

I hope your DM is up for some roleplaying solution to that problem. First of all I don't understand how this is DRAIN not DAMAGE. Vargouilles have poison and thus you could even say that using parts of the monster along with a skilled alchemist could provide an antidote. Alchemists are not as rare as high level healers and even if they can only lessen your ability drain/damage you are still more useful than before.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I hope your DM is up for some roleplaying solution to that problem. First of all I don't understand how this is DRAIN not DAMAGE. Vargouilles have poison and thus you could even say that using parts of the monster along with a skilled alchemist could provide an antidote. Alchemists are not as rare as high level healers and even if they can only lessen your ability drain/damage you are still more useful than before.

It's not the poison. The Vargouilles Kiss ability transforms anyone hit with it into another Vargouille if they fail their save. Part of that involves Cha and Int drain.
Getting drained of 6 of each is actually lucky, because if it was less chances are the whole party would already be transformed (and thus dead). 6 drain is the max, so they were essentially 1d6 hours from a TPK.
Now since they're still alive (or at least the OP is) i assume they (or he) reached sunlight (which interrupts the transformation), but they'd still need Remove Disease to reverse the transformation and Restoration to restore the drain - neither of which is available to a 3rd level character.

[Spore]

This is a great story hook on its own. I feel it's sidequesting time now anyway unless you want to unleash a new monster upon the world AND loose your comrade. I feel like a Potion of Restoration and some gold is a great rewards for some small (half a session) sidequest if it is made interesting.

[Sliver]

You know, the Vargouille is 'balanced' by having low DCs and PCs having quick access to daylight.

You were drained of 6 Int and Cha. That means that it has been at least 8 hours since you were kissed, if you rolled 1 on both the hair and face thing. Did you not know about the sunlight deal? What did you do then? Your hair was falling off and you continued on your merry way, until your face transformed and you started losing your mind?

Circumstances alter CR, and if you were prevented from accessing daylight for 8+ hours, a Vargouille is not a CR 2 creature.

[Manyasone]

You know, the Vargouille is 'balanced' by having low DCs and PCs having quick access to daylight.

You were drained of 6 Int and Cha. That means that it has been at least 8 hours since you were kissed, if you rolled 1 on both the hair and face thing. Did you not know about the sunlight deal? What did you do then? Your hair was falling off and you continued on your merry way, until your face transformed and you started losing your mind?

Circumstances alter CR, and if you were prevented from accessing daylight for 8+ hours, a Vargouille is not a CR 2 creature.

I did say low rolls, did I not? And those transformations happened while I was asleep. We were running low on resources, a rest was called. Also we were in a cavern complex so sunlight was not really present at the time... It was a bad situation, my ooc knowledge of course knew about the sunlight. And at the moment we woke up and I noticed the changes I was still smart/wise enough deduce the kiss being a disease. Lucky we found a potion afterward. But the drain is the big problem now. 19 intelligence reduced to 13 on a psion 3. It f***ing hurts

[Sliver]

Having the transformation happen when you wouldn't have access to light would still raise the CR.

But... You didn't put on watch? Did nobody notice that you were losing your hair and that your face was transforming? Was there any discussion about whether you would feel your face warping in your sleep? IC, nobody questioned why you were kissed?

So... The first two transformations did actually take one hour each? Man, talk about unlucky, having the DM roll 1,1,6 on these rolls...

[Beheld]

This comes down, like so much of D&D, to the tension between the fact that game requires you to metagame, because it doesn't actually give you enough in character information, and people's desire not to metagame. Better knowledge rules, or rules about understanding your suffering would have stopped this. You should have been in too much pain to sleep, you should have been demanding a return to town to heal, ect.

[Jack_Simth]

Umm... you could try to convince your DM that the ability drain counts as an ongoing effect, and get the party cleric to cast Resurgence (Spell Compendium) on you a few times. Reroll those saves after the fact... although that would have been better while you still had the disease....

[sleepyphoenixx]

Umm... you could try to convince your DM that the ability drain counts as an ongoing effect, and get the party cleric to cast Resurgence (Spell Compendium) on you a few times. Reroll those saves after the fact... although that would have been better while you still had the disease....

There is no party cleric. Just a psion, a warblade and a spirit shaman.
That aside, trying to get your DM to acknowledge a rules interpretation that is clearly false just because it benefits you now is a slippery slope that is best avoided.
You may as well beg for DM fiat to meet a travelling level 5 Healer who'll play good samaritan and cast Restoration on you.

[Psyren]

While Restoration is normally a 4th-level spell, some classes (e.g. Healer or Warlock) can craft a 3rd-level potion of it. So have one show up as a quest reward or plot hook of some kind.

[Troacctid]

Resurgence is your best option if you can't get Restoration. It might take a bunch of castings, but it will eventually do the trick. Any 1st level cleric can cast it, so head to your local temple, I guess.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Resurgence is your best option if you can't get Restoration. It might take a bunch of castings, but it will eventually do the trick. Any 1st level cleric can cast it, so head to your local temple, I guess.

Resurgence only helps against ongoing effects.
The transformation effect is already cured, and it won't do anything against ability drain anyway (because it's not an ongoing effect, just damage that doesn't heal naturally).

[Manyasone]

There is no party cleric. Just a psion, a warblade and a spirit shaman.
That aside, trying to get your DM to acknowledge a rules interpretation that is clearly false just because it benefits you now is a slippery slope that is best avoided.
You may as well beg for DM fiat to meet a travelling level 5 Healer who'll play good samaritan and cast Restoration on you.

Which is also kind of the reason we did not post watch, 2 full casters need 8 hours. And we had a relative safe room inside the cave. I did not take the healer into consideration, thanks guys, for that piece of info.

[Blackhawk748]

I would still bring up how your DM handled the disease thing. You where talking ability damage while you slept, so you shouldnt have been able to sleep. Nothing you can do about it now, its more of a "for future reference" moments.

[Manyasone]

I don't know, I make a difference in drain and damage in my own games as well. The difference in smashing the bucket apart(damage) and making a small hole(drain) I guess. After all, drain is more insidious and dangerous

[Sliver]

Divine casters, such as the spirit shaman, don't need rest. Spells cast within 8 hours of their meditation time count against their daily allotment, but they don't need to sleep or even rest in order to prep spells.

And arcane casters and psionic characters don't need sleep in order to regain their spells/pp, only to be resting. You should be able to take first watch and still count as resting, though perhaps penalties to spot/listen would apply.


To regain used daily power points, a psionic character must have a clear mind. To clear his mind, he must first sleep for 8 hours. The character does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but he must refrain from movement, combat, manifesting powers, skill use, conversation, or any other demanding physical or mental task during the rest period.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Divine casters, such as the spirit shaman, don't need rest. Spells cast within 8 hours of their meditation time count against their daily allotment, but they don't need to sleep or even rest in order to prep spells.

And arcane casters and psionic characters don't need sleep in order to regain their spells/pp, only to be resting. You should be able to take first watch and still count as resting, though perhaps penalties to spot/listen would apply.

Despite there being no explicit rule about what happens when you go without sleep most people still play with their characters needing their daily rest, at least if they're not warforged or have a Ring of Sustenance or something like that.
If you claim that your bog-standard human can go without sleep for a week just so you have someone to take watch your DM is well within his rights to assign penalties for being tired.

[Sliver]

I don't know how you translate me saying that you could take first watch into me claiming you can go about not sleeping ever, but okay...

Unless in your games, those that take first watch never go to sleep after their watch has ended...

My post is about casters not needing to sleep for the full 8 hours in order to prep their spells. If you apply penalties to characters that don't sleep for 8 hours, sleeping for 6 and resting for 2 while keeping watch should be fine in most groups, with a little adjustment for smaller groups. I'm not saying that you never sleep, I'm saying that having a mostly caster party doesn't mean that you can't post watch.

[ayvango]

Command activated item of 1st level magic missile and wait until restoration become available.

[Willie the Duck]

So you still have 13 Int? Well then you still can use all your powers. Your DC is lower, as is your PSPs, but you are still up and running. All you have to do is make it back to town, and badger the DM that any town near where there are vargouilles will have someone who can cast cure disease and restoration. I would not say you are boned, just seriously hurt. Give the DM a chance to roll his author saving throw on the issue before throwing up your hands.

A lot of the low-risk, high-penalty-if-you-do-fail lower CR monsters are like this (cockatrice being another notable example, showing up long before the party has break enchantment). They kinda require being able to garner outside help when they do successfully use their powers on you.

[sleepyphoenixx]

A lot of the low-risk, high-penalty-if-you-do-fail lower CR monsters are like this (cockatrice being another notable example, showing up long before the party has break enchantment). They kinda require being able to garner outside help when they do successfully use their powers on you.

I wouldn't exactly call it low risk. A level 3 character has what, a +4-5 fort save? Assuming he gets good fort, anyway. A "DC 15 fort or you're ****ed" has an even chance of getting the guy strong against it, the casters have maybe a 20-25% chance to save if they have decent Con.
But yeah, i agree that if you survive there should at least be a healer (or Healer) available in the nearest town. Anything else is just unnecessary frustration.

The cockatrice at least is one-target-only and needs to reach you and hit with a bite attack before the save even happens (so it's an argument for knowledge skills and carrying a ranged weapon i guess?).
The Vargouille comes with an AoE paralysis shriek and only needs a touch attack for the kiss, against a paralyzed target - chances are your entire party will die if they roll unlucky if you meet these bastards.

Well, if your DM is fond of monsters like these that's a good reason to get animal companions, Wild Cohort and whatever other meatshields you can grab and play a caster or archer at least.

[Psyren]

A lot of the low-risk, high-penalty-if-you-do-fail lower CR monsters are like this (cockatrice being another notable example, showing up long before the party has break enchantment). They kinda require being able to garner outside help when they do successfully use their powers on you.

This is why Pathfinder nerfed such creatures (along with SoD effects in general.) For example:

Cockatrice (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/cockatrice) - now each failed fort save causes Dex damage instead. Only after you get damaged all the way down to zero does petrification occur, and even then the victim has a small chance to recover on its own. Still enough for a loose one to stone commoners and the like, but improbable vs. PCs.

Basilisk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/basilisk) - Still has its stone gaze, but you can break the curse non-magically simply by dousing the victim in the creature's blood. Even the fighter can cure an ally's petrification.

Vargouille (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/vargouille) - the transformation is now explicitly a disease effect, so anything that defends against diseases (not just remove disease) will work on it, e.g. Delay Disease, buying the victim more time.