Killing A God/Elder Evil/Demon Prince/Arch Devil. (3.5 D&D.) HELP!

[Metahuman1]

So.


My IRL game is building toward a final climax. The DM has this Lovecraftian Abomination about to come into play called Orcus (not sure if officially stated out or not.).

He has assured me, when I pointed out to him that it looked an awful lot like he was setting this up to force the party to choose between either A: Killing a group of NPC's, 1 of whom is a 7 year old girl we'd recently just rescued and another of whom is an NPC that's been tagging along with, helping and getting help form the party since level 1 session one of the game or B: Letting the Multyverse get wiped out, that there was a way to kill him, the question was, was the party capable of managing it.


So, long story short, I have permission to begin looking into spells and combo's of spells and/or items that can kill this thing. The DM has said he's just as killable as the Gods stated out in Deity's and Demi-Gods, The Demon Princes and Arch Devil's stated out in the Fiend Folio books, and The Elder Evils.





So, in the interests of NOT having to have a gut wrenching tragedy ending that may or may not result in the DM sleeping on the couch for the foreseeable future (His wife is a player and I would not be surprised if she lost her **** on a tragedy ending.) and several players possibly inverting the trope and throwing books at the DM at the end of the game, I have come to the playground for assistance/knowledge/guidance.


How, do I kill, a being that falls in this power range?






I do not have Deific Ranks (He's considering allowing me to earn them by some manner, but has told me for now it would be best to plan like I will not be getting them. ). I do have a sorcerer PC whom has 9 levels of mage of the Arcane Order, is good aligned, and is primed to go into Red Wizard next level. The party also has a Wizard/Warblade/Swift Blade Gish who just hit level 9 in Swift Blade, and a Cleric with a 1 level dip in Crusader who's focused on Persisting spells and juuuuuuuust starting to get a handle on how to use his magic.


I have a couple of NPC's whom I might be able to get high-ish level Druid casting from if needed.


So, Playground, HELP!!!!!

[Eldan]

Well, is it the Orcus? Because if yes, you could go very metagamey and look up his stats. HE's one of the most commonly used demon princes.

[AslanCross]

Assuming your DM is using the Orcus statted out in Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss, he is certainly killable. I don't want to preempt your DM (because his Orcus might be completely different anyway), but the general principle in 3.5 is that anything with stats can be killed.

Do you have any more information on who or what Orcus is, and what he has been doing in your world so far?

[Inevitability]

Does this 'Orcus'...

1. Claim dominion over undead and death?
2. Wield a large iron wand with the power to kill those it touches?
3. Look like a giant goatmanpig thing?
4. Make his home on a layer of the abyss?

If the answer to two or more questions is 'yes', you're probably dealing with the 'real' Orcus.

[Puke]

Hi mate.
I'm playing a character who is a deity, and used to be a mortal that had to kill very powerful monster.

Here is how I and my party managed to face gods, epic creatures and so on :

1) We asked for the help of the gods.

You do not need to be a good to get really nice stats. But you can become the chosent of one god or another. Find someone who your party helped in a way or another (this does not have to be a direct help, but you may have done some things that have made his duty easier) and ask for help. A deity can grant you a wide range of powers and blessings. And if you are past level 10, you may have attracted some attention from the gods. If you are lvl 16 or more, you certainly have been noticed by some of them. But I don't know what is your total character level and this appreciation depends on your DM.

2) You know the type, prepare to fight.

Monsters have types, subtypes, and special things. If you know a type, or a subtype, you can prepare to fight. For instance, when I had to fight very very old dragons, as a Wizard, I prepared a combo of spells to both increase my spell penetration, and reduce dramatically his spell resistance.
When we had to fight demons or devils, I made sure I had non-elemental spells prepared, considering they are resistant or immune to several elements, mostly ice, fire, and electricity.

3) Think and trick

You are on the way to become a red wizard of Thay. You know why they are feared ?
1 - Zulkirs : LOL WE ARE SO POWERFUL MUCH POWER POW POW POW.... *cough* Szass Tam *cough* (If your character knows about Szass Tam, and if the Orcus is what we think it is... you may... speak to Szass Tam about it... like... really.)
2 - Group power. The red Wizard are strong because they work together to cast powerful rituals. You can prepare really strong rituals and trick your foe the time you can activate it properly.

[Metahuman1]

Eldan: I do not know. If it is, the DM might have altered him to make sure he get's his "epic" show down. (He doesn't really by into the notion that combat in 3.5 is either Rocket Tag or Players Loose most of the time.).


AslanCross: I know the DM is a HUGH Neil Gaiman Fanboy, as this one keeps being referred to as a "Kindly One.", almost certainly referencing that franchise. So far, he has some kind of "Shadows" which might or might not (The DM won't just give me a straight yes or no.) be affiliated with him or something else pulling the strings to release him as there/it's minion. They are preventing anyone or anything, including the gods and ALL the Celestials and Elemental Lords and Great Wyrm Dragons and other major powers from finding Orcus.

He is bound but the bindings are coming undone. He's only managed to appear briefly using a now destroyed Artifact on the Material Plane, but his influence and minions are reeking havoc on ALL the other planes and between that and not knowing were the same hell he is, it's keeping any of the other powers from doing anything. And he WILL be manifesting again on the prime material, eventually with out the need for artifacts. And VERY soon in game time.

Only the Gods can bind him. Thus, unless Deific Ranks get put on the table, that's out. Also binding him permanently would require doing the things below.

He will never stop coming for the "Wild Magic". Which are these weird little magic nodes in the world that have a lot of power. He can be slowed down but not stopped permanently by destroying them, as they will reform. And doing so could also hamper us. So, not a great option.

IF we can find his cultists and kill them, particularly there leader and his inner circle, it will slow him down. Not stop him. But slow him down. I am 99% sure that at most the DM will let this translate to "I will tell you I slowed it, but actually won't, he'll still appear at exactly the same narrative point I had intended before all this anyway.". IF he'll even let us track down these impossibly elusive NPC's and just get murdering them in the face over with. (They've been prior to this the BBEG's of the campaign, and the idea was up to this that they were basically Magi-Tech Hitler an his inner circle, and we've been fighting them. Then this. I'm a touch annoyed at the shift as I would have preferred to keep the fight on the enemy's I'm invested in fighting and I am not fond of Lovecraftian Entity's at this stage of things unless there gonna be kept far more nebulous and distant a threat then this. See the OP about concerns that the DM is trying to force us to have only 2 horrible options to choose form.).

Doing these together will slow him down more, but again, won't actually stop him.

Pretty much none of the higher powers or alternate planes are gonna be helpful, the material is basically on it's own and that's gonna largely boil down to "It's up to the party and anyone who will do what the hell we tell them to when we tell them and how we tell them." The best one was the Norse Pantheon since one of the PC's is now Odin's High Priest and all that's getting us is Visions of Odin saying he should have acted sooner as Asgard Burns to the ground and he dies covered in his own blood.

And lastly there's a prophecy that has an ominous ending that is basically "Yup, world ends." and makes mention of 4 Keys. Tied to the Classic 4 Elements (Though the earth one is referred to as the "Lord of the Forest."), and that they might or might not, it's vague and double and triple worded, be able to stop him, maybe. But, we also know he seeks them, though not why. Might be to destroy them. Might be to use them as some kind of weapon. Might be to consume them for some reason. No one freaking knows (or if they do they aren't telling us.).

There the 4 NPC's I mentioned in the OP. 1 of whom has been with the party longer then I as a player have been with this campaign, everyone likes him. 1 of whom is a 7 year old girl we had to rescue in the last mission as one of a number of objectives.

And along with whomever the other 2 as yet unmet NPC's are, we can NOT let him get them. By any and all means necessary. And we do know that it would stop him coming to the material plane if we not only killed but destroyed the souls of all 4 of these people.

See above for why that's off the table unless we are really forced into that corner, and why the DM will have badly over played his hand if it comes to that. (And why it would really help to be able to hand a way, or better a list, of RAW ways to have killed Orcus and avoided all this to the party on the spot.)

And the DM did make one remark to me when I pointed out that this seemed to be him backing us into only having the 2 bad options. That there are ways to kill gods, and that Force Energy, when I threw that idea out there in a desperate bid to think of SOMETHING, would him as much as it would harm any Demon Prince, Arch Devil or Celestial Ruler. So, if Force Energy harms them, that MIGHT be a lead but I can't well bank on it. Thus me looking for other things that can kill the **** out of him.



I should also mention this DM is adverse to giving the kind of reliable info Via Magic that a party at high levels would normally expect because it would keep them from being caught off guard by things and thus make encounters "Boring." Yes we have talked about this and had to agree to disagree.


Dire_Stirge: I'll see if I can find out but that information is unlikely to be forth coming unless he get's to manifest at full power on the Prime Material Plane and Force that No Win choice. Let me get back to you.






Puke: Gods have kinda been useless. To many of them are either playing Planar Bureaucrat or backing Orcus Secretly to let the others get us anything useful, and they, conveniently for the DM, can't find Orcus and his Cultists at the moment to intercede directly. And we keep getting visions of the future for Odin's High Priest, a party member, of a all the Norse Gods dead, Asgard raised to the ground, and mentions of how much they wish they'd taken us seriously when e started warning them like, 5 levels and 5+ years ago in game that there was bad **** happen that they really needed to get a handle on and how it was too late.

Same with all the other big dog celestial powers.



DM is not forth coming with sufficient information to plan for his weaknesses specifically. Best I've got is an unreliable Narrator that MAYBE Force energy MIGHT MAYBE POSSIBLE harm him. Or not.



Who, or what, is Szass Tam, and more importantly, what book and page number can he/she/it/they be found on so I can look them up?






Apart form all that, what I REALLY need are spell and/or Item combo('s) that can and will, no fail, kill Arch Devils/Demon Princes/Greater Gods and/or Elder Evils, just to make sure I've got whatever screwball base the DM tries to throw, covered. He might still refuse it on grounds of fluff (not helped by one glory hound PC who just does NOT know when to shut his mouth.), but at least then I have some leverage to work form.

[Puke]

Let me introduce Szass "The most badass lich ever created" Tam to you.

Yeah, I know, Vecna, Myrkul... Jergal... blablabla... Don't care, they are not here.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Szass_Tam

Ahem.

Szass Tam is the Zulkir of necromancy of the good empire of Thay. If you are going to be a red wizard, he is one of your bosses (in a matter of a fact, HE IS the only and true big boss of Thay... but your character may not know that yet).

You can find him in the Epic Level Handbook, P297. He is a lvl 29 character, but a CR 31. Necromancer 10/Red Wizard 17/Archmage 2 to be exact.

Szass Tam is one of the rare epic character that is wise and powerful enough to face lesser gods, or archdevils without much fear.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Who, or what, is Szass Tam, and more importantly, what book and page number can he/she/it/they be found on so I can look them up?
Szass Tam is the zulkir of necromancy, and the most powerful zulkir of all, as 29th-level full-casting lich. Zulkir are the leaders of the Red Wizards, one per school of magic. You can find a build in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (3.0, not sure if there is an updated version). He owns at least two artifacts, and carries a staff of power and a ring of three wishes at all times.

[khadgar567]

Eldan: I do not know. If it is, the DM might have altered him to make sure he get's his "epic" show down. (He doesn't really by into the notion that combat in 3.5 is either Rocket Tag or Players Loose most of the time.).


AslanCross: I know the DM is a HUGH Neil Gaiman Fanboy, as this one keeps being referred to as a "Kindly One.", almost certainly referencing that franchise. So far, he has some kind of "Shadows" which might or might not (The DM won't just give me a straight yes or no.) be affiliated with him or something else pulling the strings to release him as there/it's minion. They are preventing anyone or anything, including the gods and ALL the Celestials and Elemental Lords and Great Wyrm Dragons and other major powers from finding Orcus.

He is bound but the bindings are coming undone. He's only managed to appear briefly using a now destroyed Artifact on the Material Plane, but his influence and minions are reeking havoc on ALL the other planes and between that and not knowing were the same hell he is, it's keeping any of the other powers from doing anything. And he WILL be manifesting again on the prime material, eventually with out the need for artifacts. And VERY soon in game time.

Only the Gods can bind him. Thus, unless Deific Ranks get put on the table, that's out. Also binding him permanently would require doing the things below.

He will never stop coming for the "Wild Magic". Which are these weird little magic nodes in the world that have a lot of power. He can be slowed down but not stopped permanently by destroying them, as they will reform. And doing so could also hamper us. So, not a great option.

IF we can find his cultists and kill them, particularly there leader and his inner circle, it will slow him down. Not stop him. But slow him down. I am 99% sure that at most the DM will let this translate to "I will tell you I slowed it, but actually won't, he'll still appear at exactly the same narrative point I had intended before all this anyway.". IF he'll even let us track down these impossibly elusive NPC's and just get murdering them in the face over with. (They've been prior to this the BBEG's of the campaign, and the idea was up to this that they were basically Magi-Tech Hitler an his inner circle, and we've been fighting them. Then this. I'm a touch annoyed at the shift as I would have preferred to keep the fight on the enemy's I'm invested in fighting and I am not fond of Lovecraftian Entity's at this stage of things unless there gonna be kept far more nebulous and distant a threat then this. See the OP about concerns that the DM is trying to force us to have only 2 horrible options to choose form.).

Doing these together will slow him down more, but again, won't actually stop him.

Pretty much none of the higher powers or alternate planes are gonna be helpful, the material is basically on it's own and that's gonna largely boil down to "It's up to the party and anyone who will do what the hell we tell them to when we tell them and how we tell them." The best one was the Norse Pantheon since one of the PC's is now Odin's High Priest and all that's getting us is Visions of Odin saying he should have acted sooner as Asgard Burns to the ground and he dies covered in his own blood.

And lastly there's a prophecy that has an ominous ending that is basically "Yup, world ends." and makes mention of 4 Keys. Tied to the Classic 4 Elements (Though the earth one is referred to as the "Lord of the Forest."), and that they might or might not, it's vague and double and triple worded, be able to stop him, maybe. But, we also know he seeks them, though not why. Might be to destroy them. Might be to use them as some kind of weapon. Might be to consume them for some reason. No one freaking knows (or if they do they aren't telling us.).

There the 4 NPC's I mentioned in the OP. 1 of whom has been with the party longer then I as a player have been with this campaign, everyone likes him. 1 of whom is a 7 year old girl we had to rescue in the last mission as one of a number of objectives.

And along with whomever the other 2 as yet unmet NPC's are, we can NOT let him get them. By any and all means necessary. And we do know that it would stop him coming to the material plane if we not only killed but destroyed the souls of all 4 of these people.

See above for why that's off the table unless we are really forced into that corner, and why the DM will have badly over played his hand if it comes to that. (And why it would really help to be able to hand a way, or better a list, of RAW ways to have killed Orcus and avoided all this to the party on the spot.)

And the DM did make one remark to me when I pointed out that this seemed to be him backing us into only having the 2 bad options. That there are ways to kill gods, and that Force Energy, when I threw that idea out there in a desperate bid to think of SOMETHING, would him as much as it would harm any Demon Prince, Arch Devil or Celestial Ruler. So, if Force Energy harms them, that MIGHT be a lead but I can't well bank on it. Thus me looking for other things that can kill the **** out of him.



I should also mention this DM is adverse to giving the kind of reliable info Via Magic that a party at high levels would normally expect because it would keep them from being caught off guard by things and thus make encounters "Boring." Yes we have talked about this and had to agree to disagree.


Dire_Stirge: I'll see if I can find out but that information is unlikely to be forth coming unless he get's to manifest at full power on the Prime Material Plane and Force that No Win choice. Let me get back to you.






Puke: Gods have kinda been useless. To many of them are either playing Planar Bureaucrat or backing Orcus Secretly to let the others get us anything useful, and they, conveniently for the DM, can't find Orcus and his Cultists at the moment to intercede directly. And we keep getting visions of the future for Odin's High Priest, a party member, of a all the Norse Gods dead, Asgard raised to the ground, and mentions of how much they wish they'd taken us seriously when e started warning them like, 5 levels and 5+ years ago in game that there was bad **** happen that they really needed to get a handle on and how it was too late.

Same with all the other big dog celestial powers.



DM is not forth coming with sufficient information to plan for his weaknesses specifically. Best I've got is an unreliable Narrator that MAYBE Force energy MIGHT MAYBE POSSIBLE harm him. Or not.



Who, or what, is Szass Tam, and more importantly, what book and page number can he/she/it/they be found on so I can look them up?






Apart form all that, what I REALLY need are spell and/or Item combo('s) that can and will, no fail, kill Arch Devils/Demon Princes/Greater Gods and/or Elder Evils, just to make sure I've got whatever screwball base the DM tries to throw, covered. He might still refuse it on grounds of fluff (not helped by one glory hound PC who just does NOT know when to shut his mouth.), but at least then I have some leverage to work form.

Is asmodeus still around? İf yes then ask him to truename unname universe or mindrape universe to blurt the guys true name than pump the check sky high so you can unname the bastard

[Metahuman1]

Cool, but likely not much help. I'm using the Prestige Class in the DMG with a tweet to allow for Good Aligned since the DM doesn't like alignment locking prestige classes.


But were not actually playing in Forgotten Realms. Were playing in a home brew setting. Still, I'll ask if this being exists and can be convinced to intercede in a way that doesn't involve "well, you won't kill those 4 NPC's so I'll do it for you.".






Oh, almost forgot, the level break down for my character is Sorcerer 6 / Mage of the Arcane Order 9. Party are level 15.


Edit:


DM has said that he is described as having Dominion over Death and Undead, and while his exact gear is unconfirmed, he is described as having artifacts of such power as the wand. And yes, goatmanpigthingy with With claws, tusks, spines, and wings. And there are rumors that he at least originally came form the Abyss, but it's unknown if that's true or not.


So, 3 out of 4. What have we got for killing Orcus?







I will check into if there are any other Demon Princes or Arch Devils whom might be persuaded that they need to intercede.

[Puke]

Then do it the old fashioned way.

You reduces his MR, you increase you spell pen, and you burst his face. If he is alone against you, then, no problem if you have a part tank.

Edit :

Feat : http://alcyius.com/dndtools/feats/players-handbook-v35--6/spell-penetration--2707/index.html
Spells :
- Lower spell resistance
- Spell vulnerability
- Magic tatoo

[ExLibrisMortis]

Generally speaking, high-level outsiders and suchlike tend to amass immunities, to the point that direct damage is the more effective way of killing them. To bypass defences, instantaneous conjurations are your go-to source of damage. For example, a transdimensional orb of force will hit virtually anything (ranged touch, no save, no SR, no DR/resistance, no incorporeal miss chance, hits ethereal creatures, penetrates antimagic fields). If you can stack enough force attacks into a single round (time stop + vortex of teeth, greater arcane fusion, arcane spellsurge), you can take out lots of things before they act. If you can get surge of fortune, you can even guarantee a hit (and threat, but immunity to critical hits is common).

[Crazysaneman]

Wait, a red wizard? Good aligned? HERESY!!! I take it you are house ruling the non-good requirement? Do you have any other arcane casters to make use of the circle magic? Why red wizard? Are you really gonna fight Orcus at NINTH level? Dear god why?

[Puke]

Generally speaking, high-level outsiders and suchlike tend to amass immunities, to the point that direct damage is the more effective way of killing them. To bypass defences, instantaneous conjurations are your go-to source of damage. For example, a transdimensional orb of force will hit virtually anything (ranged touch, no save, no SR, no DR/resistance, no incorporeal miss chance, hits ethereal creatures, penetrates antimagic fields). If you can stack enough force attacks into a single round (time stop + vortex of teeth, greater arcane fusion, arcane spellsurge), you can take out lots of things before they act. If you can get surge of fortune, you can even guarantee a hit (and threat, but immunity to critical hits is common).

Time stop by lvl 15 ? He would need a scroll. And that would NOT be a good idea at all to try to use it in battle.

To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.

The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)
The user must have the spell on his or her class list.
The user must have the requisite ability score.

If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps, below). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Time stop by lvl 15 ? He would need a scroll. And that would NOT be a good idea at all to try to use it in battle.
There's a good chance the party will get one or two more levels before the actual fight, so the Swiftblade can use time stop, and the sorcerer greater arcane fusion. It pays to give suggestions that extend 1-2 levels ahead of the current level.

In any case, using a scroll like that is easy-peasy. Just activate a bead of karma pre-battle, or any other of myriad CL boosts. You only need a +2, after all.

[Puke]

You are the evilest player I ever met.

Still, time stop is the best idea so far. It is the most powerful spell you could access, since it allows you to buff yourself, to cast your burst... for free.

Many DMs like to nerf the spell tho.

[Metahuman1]

Wait, a red wizard? Good aligned? HERESY!!! I take it you are house ruling the non-good requirement? Do you have any other arcane casters to make use of the circle magic? Why red wizard? Are you really gonna fight Orcus at NINTH level? Dear god why?

Yes house rules for good aligned red wizard. (Helps were not actually playing in Forgotten Realms as the setting.)

I was thinking Circle magic might come in handy and it seemed a good lead off to give me a cap stone. At the time I made the decision I was not expecting to be fighting Orcus. I was expecting to be fighting some Jerk Wizard Hitler dude and his lack's who were in a much more reasonably manageable level.


And I'm gonna be fighting Orcus at 15th level, or higher. I'm 15th level total right now. I will of course try to stall as long as I reasonably can, but I'm sure the DM will force the fight when he deems it dramatic, how ready I and the party actually are for this be damned.

And thus, I am looking to prepare for this NOW so that I will, hopefully, have my ducks in a row and have done with it when it comes.


Just to cover those questions.







Also, DM will not reveal if other Archdevil's or Demon Princes are real or not in his setting. At this time anyway.

[Malroth]

Searing spell+ Foresight (prebuf from a scroll works fine) + Sanctum spell + greater Arcane Fusion + Arcane thesis (orb of fire).
Open your free surprise round action with a greater arcane fusion, your free 4th lv spell will be a searing spell: orb of fire, your free 7th lv spell will be a Sanctum spell: Greater arcane fusion, Repeat untill all targets in spell range are dead no statted enemy in the books will survive this assault.

[khadgar567]

That will hurt

[Anthrowhale]

Searing spell+ Foresight (prebuf from a scroll works fine) + Sanctum spell + greater Arcane Fusion + Arcane thesis (orb of fire).
Open your free surprise round action with a greater arcane fusion, your free 4th lv spell will be a searing spell: orb of fire, your free 7th lv spell will be a Sanctum spell: Greater arcane fusion, Repeat untill all targets in spell range are dead no statted enemy in the books will survive this assault.

I don't believe that works given the errata for Arcane Fusion with metamagic.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can you retrain (player's handbook II) to take the planar substitution level which turns half of all damage into force damage?

What about retraining to take a level of Mindbender so that you can qualify for Mindsight? And if so, can you get a scroll of Shapechange so you can turn into a Formian Queen? A 50 mile radius radar pinging on anything intelligent is the kind of thing that might force a DM to come clean on info.

Do you have true seeing access? That's another DM-come-clean.

What about Anticipate Teleportation? It's a 24/7 counter to scry&die tactics.

What do your metamagic feats look like? Can you limited wish: surge of fortune to autohit with a searing Energy Admixed (fire) Maximized Empowered Orb of Fire? (Have you looked at Arcane Thesis?)

Do you have access to Make Manifest? It's great tool for separating a BBEG from minions, or vice versa.

What about a scroll of Disjunction? It's a spell designed for using once/campaign in the BBEG endgame fight.

Do you have a fighter type that could credibly mix it up while using a Torc of Antimagic? Preferably something with wings? Maybe via a Chosen of Bahamut transformation? Just grappling the BBEG for a round or two would let your spell casters go to work.

Any chance that one of your allies can get 4 levels of Dweomerkeeper (by retraining?). Supernatural spell shifts SR:Yes into SR:No.

Can you retrain existing levels into Red Mage so that you reach 5th level sooner? Spells as a 40th level caster have a tendency to penetrate SR very well and with arcane preparation, you can take advantage of free Empower/Maximize/Heighten to pour on the damage.

What about Avasculate? It doesn't take many hp halvings to reduce something in the impossible-to-kill range to cream-puff range.

Have you given thought to how you keep it dead if you manage that?

[AslanCross]

I don't really have much to add to the methods above. I've been able to one-shot a CR 20 balor with an 18th level Wizard/Geometer/Silver Pyromancer/Fatespinner, but you're now at Lv 9, so yeah, the guys above have got you covered.

Granted force damage hurts ANYTHING, and nothing resists it. So it is a good lead.

I'm still dubious about how Orcus is related to the prophesied End of the World and the four elemental keys. Those seem to be more related to Tharizdun (himself something of an Elder Evil) than Orcus.

[Metahuman1]

Whatever I throw at this thing needs to be fool proof RAW, no iffiness and no room for interpretation or it will be pretty much a given that I will be ruled against on this one.



Anthrowhale: What book is the Planar Substitution level in?

Maybe and yes, but I don't think he's gonna come clean until he's good and ready too, rules be damned. Which is maddening since it means I need to be ready to do this on his time table and in a location of his choosing.

Isn't anticipate teleport the one that runs and endless risk of friendly fire? And doesn't scry and die involve scrying and casting spells that hit with out having to teleport to were I am? How would Anticipate Teleport work on countering that.

Not at the moment but might be able to get it. What book is it in?

I have a gentlemen's agreement that pre-dates the introduction of Orcus, so, Dys-juntion is likely out of the equation sadly.

Maybe. I'm not sure how well the Iai-jutsu master/Swordsage/Warblade is actually built. I'm also not sure if the Rogue/Swordsage, Cleric/Crusader, The Swiftblade and The Ranger can be relied on to NOT start screaming foul cause it means they "Can't contribute/Participate." if I do that.

Maybe. What book is it in so I can look at it? Also, as a possible plan B, what would it cost to make a custom magic item that allows me to act as though I have that class feature?

Possible.

What book is Avasculate in? I don't have it at the moment, but Between a custom Rune Staff, Mage of the Arcane Order and feat retraining, I can get it I'm sure.

And, actually, no, no I had not given though to how I'd keep him dead if I manage to kill him actually. I'd been distracted with how I get him dead in the first place.

Um, yeah, wide open to suggestions/ideas on keeping him dead.






Edit: That's, a thought. I did say there's some manner of shadow something or other that's keeping information from pretty much everyone who can and should be dealing with this.

I wouldn't be too surprised at this point if rather then letting us go back to killing Wizard Hilter, the DM threw ANOTHER Lovecraftian end of the world thing at us.

And you say this might fit the MO of an Elder Evil? Ok, how do we kill that.

[Crazysaneman]

Yes house rules for good aligned red wizard. (Helps were not actually playing in Forgotten Realms as the setting.)
I was thinking Circle magic might come in handy and it seemed a good lead off to give me a cap stone. At the time I made the decision I was not expecting to be fighting Orcus. I was expecting to be fighting some Jerk Wizard Hitler dude and his lack's who were in a much more reasonably manageable level.
And I'm gonna be fighting Orcus at 15th level, or higher. I'm 15th level total right now. I will of course try to stall as long as I reasonably can, but I'm sure the DM will force the fight when he deems it dramatic, how ready I and the party actually are for this be damned.
And thus, I am looking to prepare for this NOW so that I will, hopefully, have my ducks in a row and have done with it when it comes.
Just to cover those questions.
Also, DM will not reveal if other Archdevil's or Demon Princes are real or not in his setting. At this time anyway.

Ah that makes more sense. The big thing to remember with Orcus is that he's a coward at heart. Every version of him that I've seen has contingency plans to plane hop or to force powerful enemies to hop to hell. Dimensional anchor for him and dimensional shackles for you might do the trick, I'm afb atm so I can't look them up. Further, his club slays anything it hits with a high fort save, so find a way to be immune to slay effects. I will try to look up some more when I get home... 4th of July family stuff and all that :)

[Metahuman1]

Would being a Necropolitan do it on the slay effects?


Or having the Soulfire Property on Armor?


Those are things I can get fairly easily.




And Dimensional Anchor for him and Dimensional Shackles for the party, got it. That was helpful, thank you.

[AslanCross]

Would being a Necropolitan do it on the slay effects?


Or having the Soulfire Property on Armor?


Those are things I can get fairly easily.




And Dimensional Anchor for him and Dimensional Shackles for the party, got it. That was helpful, thank you.

Yeah, it's a necromantic death effect, so Necropolitan will confer immunity to it.

[Anthrowhale]

Planar substitution level is in the Planar Handbook.



...I don't think he's gonna come clean until he's good and ready too..


If you make him squirm, he might feel obligated to at least give some hints.



Isn't anticipate teleport the one that runs and endless risk of friendly fire?


Yep, not for the tactical teleport squad. It is however an emanation, and hence some tactical application is feasible.



And doesn't scry and die involve scrying and casting spells that hit with out having to teleport to were I am?


That's the advanced version. The more common version is divination->buff->teleport->surprise/kill. For the advanced version you need 24/7 Mindblank and/or AMF.



Not at the moment but might be able to get it. What book is it in?

Surge of Fortune is in Complete Champion. Arcane Thesis is in Player's Handbook II. Energy Admixture is in Complete Arcane. Searing Spell is in Sandstorm.



start screaming foul cause it means they "Can't contribute/Participate." if I do that.


AMF is a completely different tactic from normal with a different mixture of strengths and weaknesses... so don't surprise your party with it. Have a discussion with them first and see what they can do. It might be at least a very interesting plan B due to the whole 'shutdown supernatural badness' angle.

Dweomerkeeper is online (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/files/More_Divinity.zip). No idea for custom magic item. It's a unique and massively powerful ability so epic costs?



What book is Avasculate in?


Spell Compendium. It's a ray, so you need to strip off Ray Deflection types of immunities to apply reliably.

Look here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?492040-Ways-to-Keep-Em-Dead) for some suggestions on keeping things dead. The spell Barghest's Feast (Spell Compendium) 50% prevents any resurrection. Trap the Soul 100% prevents resurrection, but it is has an uncapped high expense. Supernatural Spell Trap the Soul would be a real head scratcher since the normal means of escape is blocked.

[Zanos]

Let me introduce Szass "The most badass lich ever created" Tam to you.
*Larloch extends his middle phalange.*



I have a gentlemen's agreement that pre-dates the introduction of Orcus, so, Dys-juntion is likely out of the equation sadly.

Pick up a Rod of Chaining, or the feat if you can stomach it. Use your Red Wizard shenanigans or whatever else your packing to up your caster level hilariously. Use Arcane Sight and the MIC rules on identifying magic items with detect magic and spellcraft rolls. Use Reserves of Strength to uncap, and blast all the magic items and buffs with Chained Greater Dispel Magic.

[Bohandas]

*The "Godtrap" beneath Castle Greyhawk/Castle Zagyg - Artifact Specially designed to imprison gods

*The Wells of Darkness in the Abyss - Also capable of imprisoning deities

*The god-slaying elder evil Pandorym

*DR/Epic can be pierced with a +4 Bane weapon of the appropriate type. DR/+7 can be pierced with a +5 bane weapon. Against a Tanarri lord you could get the enhancement bonus all the way up to 11 if you had a +5 evil-bane chaos-bane tanar'ri-bane weapon

*Deities do not have automatic resistence or immunity to sonic damage

EDIT:

Granted force damage hurts ANYTHING, and nothing resists it.

Except for force dragons, golems, and to a lesser extent he tarasque

[Efrate]

First off, are any weird happenings in the world? People mysteriously dying, boils opening on everyone, raining fire, etc? If not then you can be reasonable certain you are not fighting any Elder evil, but orcus, pig goat demon undead king. Orcus actually is not that bad. At lvl 15 its a bit rough, but certainly doable.

Does your warblade/xx have access to power attack? Power attack, shock trooper, leap attack and/or mantis leap with some attack buffs even with conservative readings should one shot or nearly one shot him. Especially after an avasculate or two.

Circle magic is your friend. You can essentially trivialize SR so that's not an issue, then its just good no save spells. Orb of force is great, so is Maw of Chaos.

Can you travel the planes? Since its homebrew I don't know what cosmology is like. You mention Asgard, so I imagine that planes are still more or less a thing. You have a few options there.

Known enemies of Orcus: Demogorgon (demon prince), Graz'zat (demon prince), Asmodaeus (Archdevil). All evil, all have reason to assist and would likely tell you much or help you.

Options: Gate spell with boosted CL calls Orcus to plane of your choice. Positive energy plane is a good one. He must obey your commands. Dimensional anchor him. You can tell him to allow you so you do not have to worry about SR at all. Tell him to wait. He does, then once his HP doubles from fast healing he explodes. As a unique being he may be immune to the call, but you still open a direct line to his home/general vicinity. Get ready toss the gate out and boom go in right to him before he can prepare and kill him on his home plane. Again positive energy plane is a good place to base out of because all his undead hordes are useless there for retaliation.

Gate storm Solars. Gate a solar. Command solar to gate another solar and tell the new one to obey you as it would the gate caster. Have solar gate another solar. Repeat till you have an army of solars. Gate into abyss right in his presence and wreck face. CL boosts are again your friend.

Gate an aspect of asmodaeus or asmodaeus himself, tell him your plans, offer to topple an abyssal lord and let him remake part of the abyss or drop it into hell. He will likely very willingly agree.

If the cheese is to much prepare thusly: be sure to be immune to negative energy, ability damage/drain, and death effects; your DMM cleric has options for this, also soulfire armor. That negates a huge portion of his offense. Also makes his legions of undead minions more or less useless against you. He's a powerful caster but get your fighter types into melee and grapple him.

Or shapechange into a force dragon, very young ones have 25 hit die and are huge so circle magic your CL to 25. They have a grapple of 45, pin him and nom his face. You have a bunch of natural weapons go there. Alternately, gate a bigger better one and have him just wreck face.

Boost CL to at least 38, gate a great wyrm force dragon. DC 72 breath weapon with 60d12 damage averages to 390 a breath. That's a force effect. I forget Orcus's HP offhand but 2 breaths should more than do it. He can't make the save short of 20. Offer the dragon Orcus's wand as treasure, he'll jump at it, and it more or less immune to anything orcus could do to him. 102 AC and SR 57 with saves of +64 +39 +65 is a pretty tough nut to crack. Its also always invisible as greater invis and has a 50% miss chance on top of that, and casts as a 36th level sorcerer.

[Metahuman1]

Yes but right now the DM is being so obtuse about it that it's impossible to tell if it's just Orcus and His Cultists or something else. The only hint is that something "Old and Powerful and Shadowy" is keeping ALL the celestials, Great Wrym Dragons, Elemental Lords, Inevitable's and ALL the Gods from finding were Orcus is so they can just get down to fixing his little red wagon while there's still time.



The gate idea is a maybe, I'll run it by the DM and see if he'll just put the kibosh on it right out the gate or not.

What book is Force Dragon From? And is it Psionic? (DM has a hard Ban on anything and everything Psionic for this game. Thanks to another PC who insisted to him Psionics were broken. I've had to SHOW him broken casting to get him into the mind set that maybe those clames were exaggerated, but he's not lifting the ban till next campaign at the earliest.) If it's not however, this might actually work. He LOVES dragons!!

Janos: Might have too.



Anthrowhale: Alright, I'll see about investing in some things to make sure he stays dead. I'll let you guys know once I her back form the DM.

[AslanCross]

Force Dragon is from the Epic Level Handbook.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Force dragons are one of the two original species of epic dragons, in the Epic Level Handbook.

[Bohandas]

What book is Force Dragon From? And is it Psionic? (DM has a hard Ban on anything and everything Psionic for this game. Thanks to another PC who insisted to him Psionics were broken. I've had to SHOW him broken casting to get him into the mind set that maybe those clames were exaggerated, but he's not lifting the ban till next campaign at the earliest.) If it's not however, this might actually work. He LOVES dragons!!

It's from the Epic Level Handbook

Here's tne SRD entry: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm#forceDragon

[Metahuman1]

Alright, so, good news bad news.



Good news, I might be able to get that Great Wyrm Force Dragon to intercede with Orcus and kill him and keep him dead after all.


Bad news: It's going to take time, require cooperation form a party whom are like hearding freaking cats in there cohesion most of the time, and require work. I don't mind the skill checks. I don't even mind that I'm going to have to haggle and he's going to charge more then he really probably should (Contingent on it not getting too debilitatingly ridiculous. ). It's the questing that I'm sure is going to be a source of frustration. (did I mention party like herding cats?)




And he keeps mentioning that shadowy darkness that's keeping the gods form just finding Orcus and rebinding him and having done with it. And that I would be wise to get an eye on that.

So, I'm thinking were in for a double twist were there will be an Evil God or a Demon Prince or an Arch Devil or an Elder Evil mucking about with the scenario that we might have to deal with suddenly. (For a DM that wants us to cut back on optimizing cause it's breaking the game, he's certainly in game giving us little incentive too do so. Got to say.)




So, shadowy darkness powerful enough to keep the gods bound in Beurocratic nonsense and form getting critical and relevant bits of info. Anyone got any ideas on what might fit that MO?

[AslanCross]

He might have added the anathematic secrecy ability from Elder Evils. All the Elder Evils in the book have it by default.

[Bohandas]

Malicious bureaucratic nonsense is generally the purview of the Baernoloths and the Lords of the Nine

EDIT:
and to a lesser extent, the Lords of Woe