The Vast of Homebrew (Sorcerer Soulknife)

[Regitnui]

I'm fond of homebrew and new design space, so when I find something like this (http://dnd-5e-homebrew.tumblr.com/post/146865279230/ancestral-blade-sorcerer-based-on-dragon-ages), my interest is raised. Especially in light of the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?493063-Why-do-people-hate-the-sorcerer) asking why the sorcerer doesn't get more love, the idea of a 'soulknife/jedi' origin is an excellent expansion to the sorcerer's options both mechanically and story-wise.

But, and here's the problem, you're not guaranteed any of this is balanced. This one in particular rubs me the wrong way because of the grammatical errors, and the fact that you need a special cantrip just to use your light-soul-saber-knife. The other fact is that the subclass seems to be trying to put more than it can in the space it has; 3 of the subclass features are split into two related abilities spaced five or six levels apart. Why must we have a perfectly good ability (deflecting attacks) hidden away in the subclass' defining, 1st-level ability when it could easily stand on its own?

The fact that I find this interesting enough to post about is praise just on its own, but I can't shake the feeling this can be done better. Playgrounders, what do you think?

[Kryx]

I think Psionics should exist as a system separate from magic.

Soulknife, as I see it, is a fighter archetype with a big psionic knife. Maybe some small psionic powers similar to EK's spells depending on which version of psionics you convert from.

Psychic warrior could be really similar.

[Giant2005]

You are certainly right about it being OP, but that is where the majority of the demand lies.

[Regitnui]

I think Psionics should exist as a system separate from magic.

Soulknife, as I see it, is a fighter archetype with a big psionic knife. Maybe some small psionic powers similar to EK's spells depending on which version of psionics you convert from.

Psychic warrior could be really similar.

This isn't a debate over psionics. This really has more of the 'Jedi' feel about it to me, and was (apparently) directly inspired by the Arcane Warrior from Dragon Age. Soulknife is just a convenient D&D reference point for us all. Don't be hung up on the psionic nature of the 3.5 class. If a wizard can be a bladesinger, a sorfcere can be a jedi/soulknife.

And if a Champion Fighter can wield a magic sword, a Champion Fighter can wield a psionic sword. No need to recruit an entirely different system.


You are certainly right about it being OP, but that is where the majority of the demand lies.

Yeah, everyone wants to be OP. But this idea has enough potential as an entirely balanced expansion to the game, don't you think?

[Kryx]

This isn't a debate over psionics.
If it isn't psionics then it shouldn't be called a Soulknife. That name instantly makes those who know of psionics think of that system.

That's probably the reason the version you link to does not use that name.

[Mr.Moron]

Well you're hardly guaranteed any particular bit of official content is going to be "Balanced" or not and there are certainly strong claims that some bits even in the PHB are off bit at least little. I think the standard should be "Is this going to be mostly functional?". It's fine if any piece of content is a bit above or below the general power curve, so long as they can work in a party and we aren't talking about an Angel Summoner & BMX Bandit situation.

That said this particular piece of content is shoddily written. I think in terms of abilities it's not too bad one way or another. It strikes me as a bit under the curve. However the phrasing is all over the place and while I'm left guessing at the intent in places. The sense it is under the curve might just be projecting my own expectations on to the rather unclear wording.

I agree this could be done much better. Heck I could do much better and I'm not even that great a home brewer.

[Giant2005]

Yeah, everyone wants to be OP. But this idea has enough potential as an entirely balanced expansion to the game, don't you think?

Not really. The level 6 ability is the most interesting aspect, but that is mainly because of how broken it is. A balanced release would involve reducing that ability's power down to be the equivalent of Dark One's Blessing; and of course culling the sheer number of abilities down to a balanced amount with the other Sorcerers.
Once you do that, you basically just have a standard melee Sorcerer that doesn't bring anything of interest to the game that isn't already achievable without homebrew.

[Regitnui]

I'll be the first to admit I'm not particularly good with mechanics. However, I believe that this concept can add to the sorcerer. You can build a sorcerer for melee with the Dragon origin, but why wouldn't a balanced 'Jedi' be a fun addition to the seemingly-neglected sorcerer?

Instead of the special cantrip, the 1st-level ability has the special 'draw to attack' rules. The 'ranged parry' comes online at level 6, with the line "if you reduce the damage to 0, you instead redirect the attack in a direction of your choice. The attack then applies to another valid target within range, and they make all saving throws as necessary" or some better-worded version.

Anyway, I thought a few other people would get a kick out of the idea presented, barring the presentation.


If it isn't psionics then it shouldn't be called a Soulknife. That name instantly makes those who know of psionics think of that system.

That's probably the reason the version you link to does not use that name.

Don't be a pedant. Read what I link to before getting your opinions lined up and ready to fire. This isn't a psionics debate, so I'll use the word "Jedi" which the homebrew doesn't use either. It does, however, make the point that soulknife would. So do you have an opinion on the class or just my use of the word soulknife?

Sorry if that seems harsh, but if you're posting just to say "psionics ftw" you're missing the point of the topic.

[Kryx]

So do you have an opinion on the class or just my use of the word soulknife?
Just an opinion on your use of the name Soulknife, which is a psionic class. I'm not trying to toot psionics horn - just suggesting you not use a name that has meaning. The same way I'd suggest you not use "incantatrix" for anything that isn't like the 3.5 incantatrix.

If you're looking for Jedi/Sith I'd recommend https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/4hwvhi/may_the_fourth_be_with_you_updated_versions_of_my/ which was created by the same person who did the remastering of the four elements Monk.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Well, let's take a look.

Weave Blade: You get the bonus cantrip, fine. Looks dandy. The rest of the level 1 portion looks nonfunctional, as you're not using an actual weapon for the cantrip. The 5th level ability is basically the Monk's Deflect Arrows but worse; also fine. This is actually the one ability I'd pump up- you should get Cha to damage with the cantrip.

Combat Clarity: Crazy good, and the second part doesn't even fit the archetype. Sorcerers already have good Con saves. I'd replace this entirely with some sort of defensive ability- either medium armor proficiency or constant 13+Dex AC, I think. Maybe Cha+Dex when unarmored, I dunno.

Weave Shield: Waaay too much. Maybe if it was Cha hit points when below half health, like the Mystic, but I think overall I'd change it to require a 1st level or higher spell. Or maybe move the Deflect Arrows ability here and let it be used with any attack? That would be a cool magic swordsman thing.

Weave Step: ...I can't decide. Let's say "a space you have line of effect to;" that should be reasonable, then.

Weave Disruption: I'm not sure about balance at that level, but it's too complicated. Let's say that in the region creatures other than you move at half speed and have Disadvantage on attacks, Dex saves and AC. Meanwhile, you move at double speed, have Advantage on attacks, Dex saves and AC, and can cast Weave Strike as a bonus action.


You are certainly right about it being OP, but that is where the majority of the demand lies.
Speaking as someone who used to do a ton of homebrew here l, I think we were much more invested in balance than the average WotC writer.

[Giant2005]

Speaking as someone who used to do a ton of homebrew here l, I think we were much more invested in balance than the average WotC writer.

I strive for balance too, but that doesn't mean that is where the demand is. Just take a look at the best selling player options on the Dungeon Master's Guild - they tend to be more powerful than the less demanded items.

[Regitnui]

Just an opinion on your use of the name Soulknife, which is a psionic class.

OK. Thanks. I was intentionally using the name to draw a comparison from our common reference point. Like someone would start describing a Spinosaurus as "T-rex, but bigger, and a fish eater" or "a two-legged, spined crocodile with long claws". It's a hook, not a definition.


Well, let's take a look.

Weave Blade: You get the bonus cantrip, fine. Looks dandy. The rest of the level 1 portion looks nonfunctional, as you're not using an actual weapon for the cantrip. The 5th level ability is basically the Monk's Deflect Arrows but worse; also fine. This is actually the one ability I'd pump up- you should get Cha to damage with the cantrip.

I still think it looks odd that you need a cantrip to use your mystic sword. Or am I missing the point?


Combat Clarity: Crazy good, and the second part doesn't even fit the archetype. Sorcerers already have good Con saves. I'd replace this entirely with some sort of defensive ability- either medium armor proficiency or constant 13+Dex AC, I think. Maybe Cha+Dex when unarmored, I dunno.

It might be worth a free disengage against enemies hit by the blade or other cantrip that turn. Does this support more frontline or support combat, because that would influence the sort of defense this slot needs.


Weave Shield: Waaay too much. Maybe if it was Cha hit points when below half health, like the Mystic, but I think overall I'd change it to require a 1st level or higher spell. Or maybe move the Deflect Arrows ability here and let it be used with any attack? That would be a cool magic swordsman thing.

And very Old Jedi Order. I can't be the only person who remembers the Jedi bouncing laser beams in the prequel trilogy with fondness. If you can't be Kylo Ren and stop lasers dead, might as well bounce them.


Weave Step: ...I can't decide. Let's say "a space you have line of effect to;" that should be reasonable, then.

Flash Step is also great.


Weave Disruption: I'm not sure about balance at that level, but it's too complicated. Let's say that in the region creatures other than you move at half speed and have Disadvantage on attacks, Dex saves and AC. Meanwhile, you move at double speed, have Advantage on attacks, Dex saves and AC, and can cast Weave Strike as a bonus action.

I think having an effect that only triggers after 1 minute, no matter how useful it might be, is kinda missing the point of 5e. Don't we have fast combat now? I do like the area effect, since it can be seen as the ghostly spirits of your ancestors grabbing at the feet of your foes, which is all sorts of appealing. :smallgrin:


Speaking as someone who used to do a ton of homebrew here l, I think we were much more invested in balance than the average WotC writer.

I certainly trust the Playground homebrew over random internet people.

[Kryx]

If you're looking for Jedi/Sith I'd recommend https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/4hwvhi/may_the_fourth_be_with_you_updated_versions_of_my/ which was created by the same person who did the remastering of the four elements Monk.
No opinion on these? They look really well done.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I still think it looks odd that you need a cantrip to use your mystic sword. Or am I missing the point?
Heck if I know, though I'm guessing it's so that you're making melee SPELL attacks. You could also have it take a bonus action to summon a blade that has Cha for attack and does d8+Cha, or just do the standard Blade Pact type effect, with an hour downtime to change the shape instead of bind a new weapon.


It might be worth a free disengage against enemies hit by the blade or other cantrip that turn. Does this support more frontline or support combat, because that would influence the sort of defense this slot needs.
I think it's supposed to be frontline? If you're going to use a more standard blade effect you should probably grant extra attack at 6.


And very Old Jedi Order. I can't be the only person who remembers the Jedi bouncing laser beams in the prequel trilogy with fondness. If you can't be Kylo Ren and stop lasers dead, might as well bounce them.
For sure. Might see about adding some Force spells to the class list, too.


I think having an effect that only triggers after 1 minute, no matter how useful it might be, is kinda missing the point of 5e. Don't we have fast combat now? I do like the area effect, since it can be seen as the ghostly spirits of your ancestors grabbing at the feet of your foes, which is all sorts of appealing. :smallgrin:

Ouch, I missed that part. Definitely drop that part.

[AmbientRaven]

This is one I am currently working on. May not be exactly what you are after though, but may be similar enough that you will enjoy it :)

It has been gone over a few times for balance issues on various sites and the consensus is now that it is at the play-test stage to determine it's level of balance.

http://upsidedownbrews.blogspot.com.au/p/sorcerer-rift-blade-v20-set-1.html

[Regitnui]

Heck if I know, though I'm guessing it's so that you're making melee SPELL attacks. You could also have it take a bonus action to summon a blade that has Cha for attack and does d8+Cha, or just do the standard Blade Pact type effect, with an hour downtime to change the shape instead of bind a new weapon.

Would it be terribly broken to just say "attacks made with your Ancestral Blade count as magical"? Also, my fond memories of LegendRPG make me want to name the Ancestral Blade a Heritor.


I think it's supposed to be frontline? If you're going to use a more standard blade effect you should probably grant extra attack at 6.

Then we're probably expecting an AC boost. Something along the lines of light and medium armour proficiency.


For sure. Might see about adding some Force spells to the class list, too.

Could work. A few thematic bonus spells like gust for force pushing and detect evil and good for being 'in tune' with the force.


Ouch, I missed that part. Definitely drop that part.

Yeah. What's the point of that when the combat should be over before 10 rounds?


This is one I am currently working on. May not be exactly what you are after though, but may be similar enough that you will enjoy it :)

http://upsidedownbrews.blogspot.com.au/p/sorcerer-rift-blade-v20-set-1.html

Wait. That's a word-for-word duplicate of the introduction to the other article. Somebody copied someone there.

Also nice to see another South African on the forums.

[Giant2005]

This is one I am currently working on. May not be exactly what you are after though, but may be similar enough that you will enjoy it :)

It has been gone over a few times for balance issues on various sites and the consensus is now that it is at the play-test stage to determine it's level of balance.

http://upsidedownbrews.blogspot.com.au/p/sorcerer-rift-blade-v20-set-1.html

Honestly, that seems even more overpowered than the version in the original post.
Arcane Blade seems to be a virtual copy/paste job of the Warlock's Blade Pact, except with the additional power of "Your Arcane Weapon counts as your arcane focus for casting spells."
Generally, stealing other class abilities is bad form due to infringing on other class niches, but not terribly so (we all do it - I have done it myself). However, giving out another class's abilities at an earlier level than the original class gets it compounds the issue greatly, but more than that; giving them a more powerful version brings the entire situation into the "must avoid" territory. If you ditch the line "Your Arcane Weapon counts as your arcane focus for casting spells.", the issue will no longer be too grand to write off the class.

Spell Blade is also a bit extreme, and much harder to solve. Compare it to a Cleric with Divine Strike that is using one of the SCAG Cantrips. The SCAG Cantrips themselves were derided for their power creep upon release, but your version falls even further in the red in that regard. SCAG Cantrips effectively lose one levels worth of damage in return for the weapon attack as a failed attempt at balance. Your version doesn't even do that much. A Cleric using a SCAG cantrip effectively has that Cantrip's damage returned via their level 8 ability, but your version does the same at level 1. In essence, you are giving your class the Cleric's level 8 ability at level 1, which is bad form. The advantage could even be considered to be greater considering the Cleric needs to be level 8, and use a feat, multiclass, or a racial ability to pull off the combo that your Sorcerer can pull off immediately at level 1.
Another (probably more appropriate) comparison is to War Magic. This ability is virtually identical to the Eldritch Knight's level 7 ability, except it has better action economy. Again, you have basically taken another class's ability, made it stronger, and then given it to your class at a much lower level.

Improved Spell Blade is quite literally the most powerful ability I have ever seen in any homebrew, ever. It straight up bypasses one of the greatest restrictions on spellcasting which is more important for a Sorcerer than any other class (casting a spell as a bonus action prevents you from casting any other spell on turn turn except for a cantrip). Due to that ability, your class is capable of casting two non-Cantrip spells in a round while also getting a free attack in. It gets even worse when you consider multiclassing - with 5 levels of a Martial Class included, you could cast 3 non-cantrips spells in a round while also getting two free attacks in. I don't need to explain why that is broken but I will anyway: the character is effectively capable of replacing an entire 4 man team simultaneously (getting the two attacks of a martial character, and 3 spell attacks of 3 spellcasters, all in a single round). It also beefs up the Haste spell considerably, by effectively turning its 1 free attack into 1 free attack + 1 free spell. At level 17 you could have a real monster, that is capable of casting 5 non-cantrip spells and having 4 weapon attacks in a single turn.
Again, this ability is fairly comparable to an already existing ability: Improved War Magic (Or Battle Magic). Except this one has even more benefits over the canon abilities other than the improved action economy of Spell Blade. Again, it is another case of taking another class's ability, beefing it up (considerably so) and then giving it to your class at a much lower level.

Rift Walk is perfectly okay.

Arcane Rend isn't too bad, but still a little too powerful. It is effectively an aoe version of Hurl Through Hell - it is damage that doesn't require any action, and I think the fact that it deals have the damage of Hurl Through Hell is a fair trade for its aoe capabilities. However unlike Hurl Through Hell, it recharges on a short rest. If you have it recharge on a long rest just like Hurl Through Hell, there would be no issues with this ability.

Basically, the first three abilities (which are all just more powerful versions of other class's abilities) need to be reduced back down to the level of the abilities they were taken from. Once that is done, the class will be noticeably above the power curve, but not destructively so. Although getting War Magic at level 1 would make some powerful multiclass combinations even more powerful due being 6 levels cheaper.

[Grod_The_Giant]

This is one I am currently working on. May not be exactly what you are after though, but may be similar enough that you will enjoy it :)

It has been gone over a few times for balance issues on various sites and the consensus is now that it is at the play-test stage to determine it's level of balance.

http://upsidedownbrews.blogspot.com.au/p/sorcerer-rift-blade-v20-set-1.html
Hmm... I'm not terribly concerned about Arcane Blade. "Summonable weapon" has a fairly niche advantage over normal weapons, especially when it costs an action to do so. (It's also fairly common) "Counts as a focus" is... honestly not something I've ever seen come up in a game, though by raw it is an advantage. I'm a strong proponent of "you shouldn't have to invest outside resources to make a class function," so I'm fine with a little bit of stepping on Warcaster's toes. On the other hand, you're clearly pushing for empty off hand, so... Maybe not worth the minor boost?

Spell Blade is too good for level 1. A cantrip is about equal to(or greater than!) one attack, and you're granting that at 1? Ouch. I'd make it take an action, so it doesn't attack with extra attack, and only have it add the rider effects, not the damage. Even then it's very strong for level 1.

Improved Spell Blade... again, I think it's a bit much for stacking with a whole attack routine. Make it an action to attack plus cast a spell and you've got a neat reversal of War Caster at about the same level. Maybe to drive it in you cast the spell as a bonus action, and it affects the next target you hit with your sword?

The rest is fine.

[AmbientRaven]

"Counts as a focus" is... honestly not something I've ever seen come up in a game, though by raw it is an advantage.

This is why I did it. I have never seen arcane focuses being an issue, and it adds to the idea of magic through the blade.


I'm a strong proponent of "you shouldn't have to invest outside resources to make a class function," so I'm fine with a little bit of stepping on Warcaster's toes. On the other hand, you're clearly pushing for empty off hand, so... Maybe not worth the minor boost?

It does step a little on warcasters toes, but otherwise the class cannot function whihc is why it was structured this way.


Spell Blade is too good for level 1. A cantrip is about equal to(or greater than!) one attack, and you're granting that at 1? Ouch. I'd make it take an action, so it doesn't attack with extra attack, and only have it add the rider effects, not the damage. Even then it's very strong for level 1.

"Once per turn as an action, you may perform a single melee weapon attack. If the attack is successful you can add the effects of one of your cantrips to the attack..."
This line allows only one attack as an action when performing a Spell-Blade. Instead of saying "When you perform an attack action you may add the effects of a cantrip on successful attacks"

I initially had it worded something like
"When you are wielding your Arcane Weapon one handed with nothing in your offhand, you gain the ability to cast your cantrips through your Arcane Weapon. Once per turn as an action, you may perform a single melee weapon attack. If the attack is successful, your weapon deals no damage but you can cast one cantrip at that target, adding your weapon attack modifier to the spells damage. When the weapon attack hits, an attack roll for the spell is not needed. If the spell requires the target to make a save, they must do so as normal.
At 5th level you may add your weapons damage to the cantrips damage.

A cantrip that includes a weapon attack as part of its action may not be used with this feature."

But some people thought the wording was a bit clunky and didn't make sense, so the general consensus came down to 'levels 1-4 go by very fast, it starts strong but tailors out after 5th'. I decided to leave it as it is now, then await play-testing to see how powerful it is.
Edit: I'll just rescind this as I agree the more I think about it.



Improved Spell Blade... again, I think it's a bit much for stacking with a whole attack routine. Make it an action to attack plus cast a spell and you've got a neat reversal of War Caster at about the same level. Maybe to drive it in you cast the spell as a bonus action, and it affects the next target you hit with your sword?

The rest is fine.

This one, I realised was missed in the clean up. The wording should be the same as Spell Blade requiring an action to perform a single attack, mirroring booming/greenflame blade but with higher level spells.
I'll go fix that up now! No idea how I missed that!

The updated one should be in the above link in about 10 mins form this being posted